Post: #26

(03-02-2012 03:08 PM)durangotang Wrote:  Casanova,

Have you ever been to jail in America? I have on three occasions for one night apiece (two for talking back to nazi police officers, and one for forgetting to pay a ticket and getting a bench warrant). Jail in America has been the most dehumanizing experience of my life. I suggest you go get booked in for a night or two and see what you think. Imagine years, surrounded by sociopath guards, and people from broken homes without proper education (and other criminal sociopaths).

The numbers don't lie. Norway is doing a far better job than us at a far lower price.

I've never been arrested.

Post: #27

(03-02-2012 03:24 PM)basilransom Wrote:  I agree that prisons in the US aren't necessarily for rehabilitation. They're for protecting everyone outside the prison. The vast majority of serious crime is done by guys with prior crimes. The easiest way to reduce the crime rate is by increasing the lengths of sentencing for guys with prior convictions, by keeping criminals off the streets. Provided the person is guilty of a heinous crime, I don't think most normal people have a problem with this.

Easiest? Without a doubt.
Most effective and economical? Not even close.

Post: #28

I think the Heritage Foundations index is bullshit. You have a little cocaine on you in Singapore and get executed - even if you are a minor. Singapore has a horrible freedom of the press. Hong Kong is controlled by mainland China. Take a look at the NDAA just signed by Obama. Casanova, turn off Fox News please.

Post: #29

The goal of incarceration in the United States is to exact "justice" for the victims, not to make society "safer" in the most economical or humane sense. It's not about the criminal, but about the victims and them being violated. That's why there's always an outcry when someone is perceived to receive a sentence lesser than what society thinks is appropriate for that crime.


Americans in many parts of the country cling to this notion of justice. Someone who commits a crime must "pay" for their wrongdoing. It has many biblical connotations as well. That's just part of American culture. We use a different metric over here.

We could care less about "rehabilitating" the criminal. F that guy (or so the attitude goes).

Post: #30

(03-02-2012 03:39 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:24 PM)basilransom Wrote:  I agree that prisons in the US aren't necessarily for rehabilitation. They're for protecting everyone outside the prison. The vast majority of serious crime is done by guys with prior crimes. The easiest way to reduce the crime rate is by increasing the lengths of sentencing for guys with prior convictions, by keeping criminals off the streets. Provided the person is guilty of a heinous crime, I don't think most normal people have a problem with this.

Easiest? Without a doubt.
Most effective and economical? Not even close.

You forgot to mention humane. Easiest method? Execution.

Post: #31

(03-02-2012 03:43 PM)durangotang Wrote:  I think the Heritage Foundations index is bullshit. You have a little cocaine on you in Singapore and get executed - even if you are a minor. Singapore has a horrible freedom of the press. Hong Kong is controlled by mainland China. Take a look at the NDAA just signed by Obama. Casanova, turn off Fox News please.

He asked for evidence and I supplied a source that supported my position. Case closed. There are other organizations out there that place the US ahead of Norway as well. You can find them for yourself. I don't watch Fox News.

Post: #32

(03-02-2012 03:43 PM)durangotang Wrote:  I think the Heritage Foundations index is bullshit. You have a little cocaine on you in Singapore and get executed - even if you are a minor. Singapore has a horrible freedom of the press. Hong Kong is controlled by mainland China. Take a look at the NDAA just signed by Obama. Casanova, turn off Fox News please.

He asked for evidence and I supplied a source that supported my position. Case closed. There are other organizations out there that place the US ahead of Norway as well. You can find them for yourself. I don't watch Fox News.

Post: #33

(03-02-2012 03:45 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:43 PM)durangotang Wrote:  I think the Heritage Foundations index is bullshit. You have a little cocaine on you in Singapore and get executed - even if you are a minor. Singapore has a horrible freedom of the press. Hong Kong is controlled by mainland China. Take a look at the NDAA just signed by Obama. Casanova, turn off Fox News please.

He asked for evidence and I supplied a source that supported my position. Case closed. There are other organizations out there that place the US ahead of Norway as well. You can find them for yourself. I don't watch Fox News.

Case closed. Your source is bullshit.

Post: #34

(03-02-2012 03:32 PM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  @Casanova, that prison is hard ass compared to the Norway "prison" island

WTF? I'm speechless....

Had I not known any better and put that video on mute, I would think I was watching the Travel Channel. Ridiculous...

Post: #35

(03-02-2012 03:46 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:45 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:43 PM)durangotang Wrote:  I think the Heritage Foundations index is bullshit. You have a little cocaine on you in Singapore and get executed - even if you are a minor. Singapore has a horrible freedom of the press. Hong Kong is controlled by mainland China. Take a look at the NDAA just signed by Obama. Casanova, turn off Fox News please.

He asked for evidence and I supplied a source that supported my position. Case closed. There are other organizations out there that place the US ahead of Norway as well. You can find them for yourself. I don't watch Fox News.

Case closed. Your source is bullshit.

Says "durangoteng" or whatever yourr alias is from RVF. The man who lazily presents red herrings and false dichotomies in a discussion in an anonymous online forum. No thanks. I'll believe Heritage any day over you.

Post: #36

(03-02-2012 03:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:46 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:45 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:43 PM)durangotang Wrote:  I think the Heritage Foundations index is bullshit. You have a little cocaine on you in Singapore and get executed - even if you are a minor. Singapore has a horrible freedom of the press. Hong Kong is controlled by mainland China. Take a look at the NDAA just signed by Obama. Casanova, turn off Fox News please.

He asked for evidence and I supplied a source that supported my position. Case closed. There are other organizations out there that place the US ahead of Norway as well. You can find them for yourself. I don't watch Fox News.

Case closed. Your source is bullshit.

Says "durangoteng" or whatever yourr alias is from RVF. The man who lazily presents red herrings and false dichotomies in a discussion in an anonymous online forum. No thanks. I'll believe Heritage any day over you.

So says you? Who are you? Why don't you post your identity? Ad hominem attacks on me doesn't win you anything.

I ask you if you have ever been to jail and you don't respond. Vicious challenges whether personal liberties are actually less in the U.S. after the Patriot Act and you respond with some rightwing bullshit economic freedom index from Heritage.

Factually, Norwegian society has far less crime, at far lower cost. You can be jealous of the prisoners lifestyle all you want.

And next time, spell my handle correctly.

Post: #37

Some random facts about the Norwegian prison system:

- Per 100k of the population Norway has more incarcerated murderers and rapists than the UK.
- The maximum jail term for an inmate is 30 years. [Though, one would imagine, a home secretary figure can inforce a whole-life tariff in certain circumstances.]
- Prisoners may vote while inside.

This is a complex issue, but one cannot argue with the success of these prisons. Violence is next to nonexistent within and reoffending is very low - exactly what you would want from a penal system. Of course, that will not sit well with a hard-working and honest man on minimum wage who may feel he lives worse off than these criminals, but if this is what must be done to prevent reoffending and violence within prison walls it is direction I would encourage. Because - christ - the privatised horror show of US prisons is something we need to move away from.

Post: #38

The US also has minimum security prisons like Martha Stewart's "Camp Cupcake". There's a huge difference between a High Security Federal Penitentiary (double fences, internal movement control) and the minimum security Federal Prison Camps (which don't even have fences). Forbes has even done "12 top prisons" for their white collar crime leaning criminal readers.

The original "Club Fed" was Eglin Federal Prison Camp in Florida where part of the mandatory work requirement was maintaining the landscapes of (but never being able to actual play on themselves) the golf course and tennis courts at the Elgin Airforce base. They did have (as many minimum security prisons do) basketball and softball leagues. Post closure the prisoners now are stationed at Federal Prison Camp Pensacola where they maintain the landscaping of the the Pensacola Naval Air Station grounds, and most Federal Prison Camps are adjacent to military bases or other federal facilities where the prisoners meet their required 40 hours of work a week doing tasks varying from landscaping to running bakeries or cafeterias. There are also in the US many alternative-to-incarceration programs like San Francisco's Delancey Street Foundation which sells Christmas Trees and runs multiple restaurants as the required work programs.

"DownTime - A Guide to Federal Incarceration" is constantly updated with changes, now in its 10th edition on amazon.

Hope no one here ever has to use it.

Post: #39

(03-02-2012 03:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:46 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:45 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:43 PM)durangotang Wrote:  I think the Heritage Foundations index is bullshit. You have a little cocaine on you in Singapore and get executed - even if you are a minor. Singapore has a horrible freedom of the press. Hong Kong is controlled by mainland China. Take a look at the NDAA just signed by Obama. Casanova, turn off Fox News please.

He asked for evidence and I supplied a source that supported my position. Case closed. There are other organizations out there that place the US ahead of Norway as well. You can find them for yourself. I don't watch Fox News.

Case closed. Your source is bullshit.

Says "durangoteng" or whatever yourr alias is from RVF. The man who lazily presents red herrings and false dichotomies in a discussion in an anonymous online forum. No thanks. I'll believe Heritage any day over you.

Boys, Boys!!! Let's not lose focus, too many mofos pulling out their dicks for measurement here. It's all about: how can I use all of this information.....to get more pussy for me?

Mixx

Post: #40

(03-02-2012 04:02 PM)MiXX Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:46 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:45 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:43 PM)durangotang Wrote:  I think the Heritage Foundations index is bullshit. You have a little cocaine on you in Singapore and get executed - even if you are a minor. Singapore has a horrible freedom of the press. Hong Kong is controlled by mainland China. Take a look at the NDAA just signed by Obama. Casanova, turn off Fox News please.

He asked for evidence and I supplied a source that supported my position. Case closed. There are other organizations out there that place the US ahead of Norway as well. You can find them for yourself. I don't watch Fox News.

Case closed. Your source is bullshit.

Says "durangoteng" or whatever yourr alias is from RVF. The man who lazily presents red herrings and false dichotomies in a discussion in an anonymous online forum. No thanks. I'll believe Heritage any day over you.

Boys, Boys!!! Let's not lose focus, too many mofos pulling out their dicks for measurement here. It's all about: how can I use all of this information.....to get more pussy for me?

Mixx

Good point Mixx. Cassanova, I present you the olive branch.

Post: #41

I don't know how this turned into a discussion about comparing prison systems between different countries. That's just impossible. The cultural nuances are so uniquely specific to each country.

However, I'm just saying, I don't know why Norway needs to create a "Halden" to reach its goals when rehabilitating prisoners into Norwegian society.

I have yet to hear anyone adequately explain how plasmas, rock climbing walls, personal trainers, and gourmet cooking classes are essential amenities in a Norwegian prison funded by taxpayers.

What would be the conclusion drawn if there was even a slight spike in crimes following the opening of this prison? Oh, it must have been the fateful decision of the prison "authorities" to exclude Swedish massages out of the operating budget? Give me a break....

Post: #42

(03-02-2012 03:59 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:46 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:45 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:43 PM)durangotang Wrote:  I think the Heritage Foundations index is bullshit. You have a little cocaine on you in Singapore and get executed - even if you are a minor. Singapore has a horrible freedom of the press. Hong Kong is controlled by mainland China. Take a look at the NDAA just signed by Obama. Casanova, turn off Fox News please.

He asked for evidence and I supplied a source that supported my position. Case closed. There are other organizations out there that place the US ahead of Norway as well. You can find them for yourself. I don't watch Fox News.

Case closed. Your source is bullshit.

Says "durangoteng" or whatever yourr alias is from RVF. The man who lazily presents red herrings and false dichotomies in a discussion in an anonymous online forum. No thanks. I'll believe Heritage any day over you.

So says you? Who are you? Why don't you post your identity? Ad hominem attacks on me doesn't win you anything.

I ask you if you have ever been to jail and you don't respond. Vicious challenges whether personal liberties are actually less in the U.S. after the Patriot Act and you respond with some rightwing bullshit economic freedom index from Heritage.

Factually, Norwegian society has far less crime, at far lower cost. You can be jealous of the prisoners lifestyle all you want.

And next time, spell my handle correctly.

I actually did respond to your irrelevant question. You would do well to look for the answer.

Who am I? Someone with more clout than you on this forum, newbie. Settle down. My identity has been revealed time and again. Of course, you wouldn't know anything about that.

I presented a source to Vicious, not you. You should have better things to do than hijack a discussion that doesn't involve you and doing nothing to elevate it.

Rather than talking out of your ass, why don't you drop a source if you seek to negate the source I dropped?

I don't take this to heart so I'm good on the "olive branch."

Post: #43

(03-02-2012 01:58 PM)Vicious Wrote:  Hen I have all respect for you and your contributions but you're not exactly being objective here. The article clearly mentions the focus on rehabilitation.

Weigh this penitentiary system to the overall Norwegian crime rate and number of recurring criminals.
Compare this to the American system which focuses on long confinement and a high incarceration rate even for crimes on the lower end of the scale (such as possession) - and then look at the numbers of detainees that become institutionalized or hardened criminals.

In short, Norwegian punitive scale and crime rate (by repeat offenders) vs. American punitive scale and crime rate. I have intentionally not supplied the figures because I know what they are (as a Scandinavian I've had this discussion dozens of times on other international forums) and there's a journey in checking these out for yourself.

Which system do you think is the most effective and provides security to the most people?

Well, Norway is a small , homogeneous country with one of the highest HDI in the world and without the complexity of a bigger country so they can afford that.
I don't see that model working almost anywhere else.

The American prison system is quite good also , especially when you compare it to this place :

   

Post: #44

(03-02-2012 04:08 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:59 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:46 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:45 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  He asked for evidence and I supplied a source that supported my position. Case closed. There are other organizations out there that place the US ahead of Norway as well. You can find them for yourself. I don't watch Fox News.

Case closed. Your source is bullshit.

Says "durangoteng" or whatever yourr alias is from RVF. The man who lazily presents red herrings and false dichotomies in a discussion in an anonymous online forum. No thanks. I'll believe Heritage any day over you.

So says you? Who are you? Why don't you post your identity? Ad hominem attacks on me doesn't win you anything.

I ask you if you have ever been to jail and you don't respond. Vicious challenges whether personal liberties are actually less in the U.S. after the Patriot Act and you respond with some rightwing bullshit economic freedom index from Heritage.

Factually, Norwegian society has far less crime, at far lower cost. You can be jealous of the prisoners lifestyle all you want.

And next time, spell my handle correctly.

I actually did respond to your irrelevant question. You would do well to look for the answer.

Who am I? Someone with more clout than you on this forum, newbie. Settle down. My identity has been revealed time and again. Of course, you wouldn't know anything about that.

I presented a source to Vicious, not you. You should have better things to do than hijack a discussion that doesn't involve you and doing nothing to elevate it.

Rather than talking out of your ass, why don't you drop a source if you seek to negate the source I dropped?

I don't take this to heart so I'm good on the "olive branch."

You are an asshole.

Post: #45

(03-02-2012 04:11 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 04:08 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:59 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:46 PM)durangotang Wrote:  Case closed. Your source is bullshit.

Says "durangoteng" or whatever yourr alias is from RVF. The man who lazily presents red herrings and false dichotomies in a discussion in an anonymous online forum. No thanks. I'll believe Heritage any day over you.

So says you? Who are you? Why don't you post your identity? Ad hominem attacks on me doesn't win you anything.

I ask you if you have ever been to jail and you don't respond. Vicious challenges whether personal liberties are actually less in the U.S. after the Patriot Act and you respond with some rightwing bullshit economic freedom index from Heritage.

Factually, Norwegian society has far less crime, at far lower cost. You can be jealous of the prisoners lifestyle all you want.

And next time, spell my handle correctly.

I actually did respond to your irrelevant question. You would do well to look for the answer.

Who am I? Someone with more clout than you on this forum, newbie. Settle down. My identity has been revealed time and again. Of course, you wouldn't know anything about that.

I presented a source to Vicious, not you. You should have better things to do than hijack a discussion that doesn't involve you and doing nothing to elevate it.

Rather than talking out of your ass, why don't you drop a source if you seek to negate the source I dropped?

I don't take this to heart so I'm good on the "olive branch."

You are an asshole.

Post: #46

I give you shit about ad hominem attacks, then call you an asshole.

Yeah, the humor isn't lost on me either.

About the pussy, like Mixx said, Roosh sure had an easy time getting girls from Iceland and Denmark he just met on the streets into his apartment for drinks. Apparently, they are not afraid of rapists. I'll attribute that to the apparent reduction of crime.

Post: #47

(03-02-2012 05:12 PM)durangotang Wrote:  I give you shit about ad hominem attacks, then call you an asshole.

Yeah, the humor isn't lost on me either.

About the pussy, like Mixx said, Roosh sure had an easy time getting girls from Iceland and Denmark he just met on the streets into his apartment for drinks. Apparently, they are not afraid of rapists. I'll attribute that to the apparent reduction of crime.

My geography is not the greatest but are Iceland and Denmark in Norway?

Post: #48

(03-02-2012 05:12 PM)durangotang Wrote:  I give you shit about ad hominem attacks, then call you an asshole.

Yeah, the humor isn't lost on me either.

About the pussy, like Mixx said, Roosh sure had an easy time getting girls from Iceland and Denmark he just met on the streets into his apartment for drinks. Apparently, they are not afraid of rapists. I'll attribute that to the apparent reduction of crime.

This has more to do with the social cohesion in those countries. By their very nature, more ethnically, culturally and socially diverse countries will never reach that level of social cohesion.

Post: #49

(03-02-2012 05:24 PM)Moma Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 05:12 PM)durangotang Wrote:  I give you shit about ad hominem attacks, then call you an asshole.

Yeah, the humor isn't lost on me either.

About the pussy, like Mixx said, Roosh sure had an easy time getting girls from Iceland and Denmark he just met on the streets into his apartment for drinks. Apparently, they are not afraid of rapists. I'll attribute that to the apparent reduction of crime.

My geography is not the greatest but are Iceland and Denmark in Norway?

Sure, they are all Scandinavian countries, along with Sweden and Finland.

Post: #50

(03-02-2012 03:37 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:08 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 02:58 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  Americans enjoy way more freedoms than Norwegians.

Ooooook, you really have to show something solid to make this kind of claim.

Post-911 (hello Patriot Act!) I would even argue that Americans enjoy fewer freedoms than Norwegians.

No problem, sir.

Here's your evidence.

I tend to make sure I have some support before I make some kind of claim.

That's an index over economic freedom, the overall score has very little to do with the issue at hand. If this index was any indication the top two scorers would be more free than the US, and they aren't even democracies. Surely you must see the flaw in this logic?

A better comparison when discussing "free" with regard to the individual would be The Economist's (My fave mag) Democracy Index.


durangotang, you should probably chill. I don't agree with Hen on this particular topic but he's a regular contributor that has more than proven himself.