Post: #26

(08-26-2014 07:35 AM)objectivist tree Wrote:  I come from the Ron Paul "let's mind our own business" crowd and I am definitely not part of the pro-intervention neoconservative "lets invade the world crowd" but ISIS is a real threat to Western civilization.

As ISIS grows, it will topple more and more Middle Eastern countries and gain more power. This is truly the formation of the Islamic Caliphate that all those jihadists have been foaming at the mouth for. This is them. It is happening now. They are extremely violent and are growing in numbers and power daily.

I honestly believe a second Crusades are on the way in the next 100 years. With the rapid growth of Islamism in the Middle East and the utter failure of multiculturalism in Europe, Europeans will go to all out war with Islam once again. It can be argued that the foreign policy of the US government is too blame for it and I generally believe they are at fault. However, while it is their fault, we (Americans and Europeans) have to live with the consequences. And I will be damned if I will ever be subjugated to Islam.

I know Americans are pretty war-torn from the debacles of Iraq and Afghanistan and I dont blame them (heck, I'm one of them). However, this is a real threat which we will have to face sooner or later. The Progressive Hivemind will gladly welcome the Islamist threat into our own back yard with open arms. It is believed that these jihadists may have already been using our ever-so-tolerant open borders immigration policy to sneak into the US and start establishing sleeper cells.

They're not going away anytime soon. So are you wiling to fight for Western Civilization like your ancestors did? or are you ready to submit to Allah?

I don't think the West has the guts or the will to do what's necessary to win this coming war. To defeat a radical threat it takes people willing to do radical things in order to achieve victory and a cause they believe in. What causes do we have? Consumerism? We don't even have a bunch of radical leftists willing to directly kill for their ideals. There are no more Lenins or Trotskys (thank god) but instead a bunch of perverts, masculine women and feminized men who prefer blogging to action.

Furthermore, religion is neutered in America and progressivism serves as the enemy within, making sure that the nation and culture's natural immune system is weak.

Whenever the warrior spirit and urge to fight rises within the people the politicians quickly try to stamp it out. See: George Bush's pussy advice to "buy things" in the aftermath of 9/11 when everyone I know, including myself, wanted to fight. The opportunity to harness the people's fighting spirit like we saw during WWII was squandered.

And unless tribalism, nationalism or a radical religious revival happens in Western Europe I don't hold out much hope for their chances.

The real thing I'm curious about is what the East is going to do about the march of these radicals.

Post: #27

(08-26-2014 08:04 AM)objectivist tree Wrote:  We don't have to go intervene. The fight will come right to us. The goal of ISIS is the complete subjugation of Western Civilization.

Every single war in the middle east is WWIII, every single bad guy there is the next Hitler

Saddam was Hitler
Bin laden was Hitler
Assad was Hitler
Ahmadenijad was Hitler

It's really getting old. Every single time there's someone we don't like, people get hysterical thinking they're about to take over the world and destroy us. They aren't. You're being hysterical, just like people before every other waste of time war in the middle east.

If they dare to attack Turkey head on, NATO can step up and stomp them but, let's wait and see if that even happens.

Post: #28

The whole region is one big shitstorm. Look at the recent air strikes in Libya by UAE and Egypt. The whole "good guy/ bad guy" narrative fed to the American people just makes less and less sense to anyone with an inkling of common sense. So wars will go on, but they will be conducted by UAVs, air strikes, special forces, and other covert operators, because the American people are fed up with sending ordinary grunts over there.

Post: #29

(08-26-2014 11:02 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 08:04 AM)objectivist tree Wrote:  We don't have to go intervene. The fight will come right to us. The goal of ISIS is the complete subjugation of Western Civilization.

Every single war in the middle east is WWIII, every single bad guy there is the next Hitler

Saddam was Hitler
Bin laden was Hitler
Assad was Hitler
Ahmadenijad was Hitler

It's really getting old. Every single time there's someone we don't like, people get hysterical thinking they're about to take over the world and destroy us. They aren't. You're being hysterical, just like people before every other waste of time war in the middle east.

If they dare to attack Turkey head on, NATO can step up and stomp them but, let's wait and see if that even happens.

Strawman much?

The only people saying those things were neocon right-wing pundits trying to make money off people's ignorance.

This is something else entirely. These radicals are building the caliphate they've been talking about in general terms for a long time now. Corrupt tyrannies like Syria and Iran are infinitely preferable to the imperialistic designs of these radicals.

Post: #30

What I am afraid of, is those who will be, and are, taking the opportunity to call for world war III on Islam.
Some of the reactions on this thread can tell.
Whatever the US/rest of the world does against the ISIS, do not put every muslim in the same basket and bomb (or call for the bombing of) innocent people who did no harm.

Post: #31

(08-26-2014 11:44 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  Strawman much?

The only people saying those things were neocon right-wing pundits trying to make money off people's ignorance.

This is something else entirely. These radicals are building the caliphate they've been talking about in general terms for a long time now. Corrupt tyrannies like Syria and Iran are infinitely preferable to the imperialistic designs of these radicals.

Everyone has "imperialistic designs", principally the United States who makes it a habit of overthrowing governments and installing puppet leaders all over the world.

You're terrified of a group that has taken territory from Iraq and Syria, a good accomplishment for sure, but they're taking advantage of chaos in war-torn countries, they're not yet toppling countries that are stable. Wake me up when they've taken over Jordan.

Post: #32

(08-26-2014 12:15 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 11:44 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  Strawman much?

The only people saying those things were neocon right-wing pundits trying to make money off people's ignorance.

This is something else entirely. These radicals are building the caliphate they've been talking about in general terms for a long time now. Corrupt tyrannies like Syria and Iran are infinitely preferable to the imperialistic designs of these radicals.

Everyone has "imperialistic designs", principally the United States who makes it a habit of overthrowing governments and installing puppet leaders all over the world.

You're terrified of a group that has taken territory from Iraq and Syria, a good accomplishment for sure, but they're taking advantage of chaos in war-torn countries, they're not yet toppling countries that are stable. Wake me up when they've taken over Jordan.

So because the US has committed sins in the past no Americans should ever pass judgment on anyone else or any anti-American movement? I'm not sure if you're trying to make an argument here or are just bitching about history.

And I am not terrified of them. I hate them and I want to see them utterly annihilated.

Post: #33

(08-26-2014 10:43 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 07:35 AM)objectivist tree Wrote:  I come from the Ron Paul "let's mind our own business" crowd and I am definitely not part of the pro-intervention neoconservative "lets invade the world crowd" but ISIS is a real threat to Western civilization.

As ISIS grows, it will topple more and more Middle Eastern countries and gain more power. This is truly the formation of the Islamic Caliphate that all those jihadists have been foaming at the mouth for. This is them. It is happening now. They are extremely violent and are growing in numbers and power daily.

I honestly believe a second Crusades are on the way in the next 100 years. With the rapid growth of Islamism in the Middle East and the utter failure of multiculturalism in Europe, Europeans will go to all out war with Islam once again. It can be argued that the foreign policy of the US government is too blame for it and I generally believe they are at fault. However, while it is their fault, we (Americans and Europeans) have to live with the consequences. And I will be damned if I will ever be subjugated to Islam.

I know Americans are pretty war-torn from the debacles of Iraq and Afghanistan and I dont blame them (heck, I'm one of them). However, this is a real threat which we will have to face sooner or later. The Progressive Hivemind will gladly welcome the Islamist threat into our own back yard with open arms. It is believed that these jihadists may have already been using our ever-so-tolerant open borders immigration policy to sneak into the US and start establishing sleeper cells.

They're not going away anytime soon. So are you wiling to fight for Western Civilization like your ancestors did? or are you ready to submit to Allah?

I don't think the West has the guts or the will to do what's necessary to win this coming war. To defeat a radical threat it takes people willing to do radical things in order to achieve victory and a cause they believe in. What causes do we have? Consumerism? We don't even have a bunch of radical leftists willing to directly kill for their ideals. There are no more Lenins or Trotskys (thank god) but instead a bunch of perverts, masculine women and feminized men who prefer blogging to action.

Furthermore, religion is neutered in America and progressivism serves as the enemy within, making sure that the nation and culture's natural immune system is weak.

Whenever the warrior spirit and urge to fight rises within the people the politicians quickly try to stamp it out. See: George Bush's pussy advice to "buy things" in the aftermath of 9/11 when everyone I know, including myself, wanted to fight. The opportunity to harness the people's fighting spirit like we saw during WWII was squandered.

And unless tribalism, nationalism or a radical religious revival happens in Western Europe I don't hold out much hope for their chances.

The real thing I'm curious about is what the East is going to do about the march of these radicals.

So what's your "radical" solution then? Go nuke the entire region?

Post: #34

ISIS is truly unlike any foe we have seen in the Middle East. Groups like Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah and dictators like Assad are infinitely more preferable than ISIS. ISIS wishes to establish an Islamic Caliphate in order to destroy Western Civilization.

Like I stated before, I am a Ron Paul non-interventionist guy. I do not think we should have gone into Iraq or tried nation building in Afghanistan. I do not think we should have gotten involved in Libya, Egypt or Syria. The USG did though, either militarily or politically.

The Arab Spring is a direct result of our foreign intervention in the Middle East. The formation is ISIS is as well. These are both examples of blowback.

The Islamist in the Foley beheading video is a British Muslim. As demographic displacement takes place in Europe, you will see an even greater rise in European Nationalist movements. As long as the US border remains open, you will see Islamists infiltrate US society.

You can avoid conflict all you want but something is going to happen eventually. There will be another Crusades in the next century.

Post: #35

(08-26-2014 12:26 PM)mikado Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 10:43 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 07:35 AM)objectivist tree Wrote:  I come from the Ron Paul "let's mind our own business" crowd and I am definitely not part of the pro-intervention neoconservative "lets invade the world crowd" but ISIS is a real threat to Western civilization.

As ISIS grows, it will topple more and more Middle Eastern countries and gain more power. This is truly the formation of the Islamic Caliphate that all those jihadists have been foaming at the mouth for. This is them. It is happening now. They are extremely violent and are growing in numbers and power daily.

I honestly believe a second Crusades are on the way in the next 100 years. With the rapid growth of Islamism in the Middle East and the utter failure of multiculturalism in Europe, Europeans will go to all out war with Islam once again. It can be argued that the foreign policy of the US government is too blame for it and I generally believe they are at fault. However, while it is their fault, we (Americans and Europeans) have to live with the consequences. And I will be damned if I will ever be subjugated to Islam.

I know Americans are pretty war-torn from the debacles of Iraq and Afghanistan and I dont blame them (heck, I'm one of them). However, this is a real threat which we will have to face sooner or later. The Progressive Hivemind will gladly welcome the Islamist threat into our own back yard with open arms. It is believed that these jihadists may have already been using our ever-so-tolerant open borders immigration policy to sneak into the US and start establishing sleeper cells.

They're not going away anytime soon. So are you wiling to fight for Western Civilization like your ancestors did? or are you ready to submit to Allah?

I don't think the West has the guts or the will to do what's necessary to win this coming war. To defeat a radical threat it takes people willing to do radical things in order to achieve victory and a cause they believe in. What causes do we have? Consumerism? We don't even have a bunch of radical leftists willing to directly kill for their ideals. There are no more Lenins or Trotskys (thank god) but instead a bunch of perverts, masculine women and feminized men who prefer blogging to action.

Furthermore, religion is neutered in America and progressivism serves as the enemy within, making sure that the nation and culture's natural immune system is weak.

Whenever the warrior spirit and urge to fight rises within the people the politicians quickly try to stamp it out. See: George Bush's pussy advice to "buy things" in the aftermath of 9/11 when everyone I know, including myself, wanted to fight. The opportunity to harness the people's fighting spirit like we saw during WWII was squandered.

And unless tribalism, nationalism or a radical religious revival happens in Western Europe I don't hold out much hope for their chances.

The real thing I'm curious about is what the East is going to do about the march of these radicals.

So what's your "radical" solution then? Go nuke the entire region?

No, troll. If I were Emperor of America I'd ally with Syria, Iran, Turkey and anyone else interested in crushing them and just get it done with.

Post: #36

(08-26-2014 12:26 PM)mikado Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 10:43 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 07:35 AM)objectivist tree Wrote:  I come from the Ron Paul "let's mind our own business" crowd and I am definitely not part of the pro-intervention neoconservative "lets invade the world crowd" but ISIS is a real threat to Western civilization.

As ISIS grows, it will topple more and more Middle Eastern countries and gain more power. This is truly the formation of the Islamic Caliphate that all those jihadists have been foaming at the mouth for. This is them. It is happening now. They are extremely violent and are growing in numbers and power daily.

I honestly believe a second Crusades are on the way in the next 100 years. With the rapid growth of Islamism in the Middle East and the utter failure of multiculturalism in Europe, Europeans will go to all out war with Islam once again. It can be argued that the foreign policy of the US government is too blame for it and I generally believe they are at fault. However, while it is their fault, we (Americans and Europeans) have to live with the consequences. And I will be damned if I will ever be subjugated to Islam.

I know Americans are pretty war-torn from the debacles of Iraq and Afghanistan and I dont blame them (heck, I'm one of them). However, this is a real threat which we will have to face sooner or later. The Progressive Hivemind will gladly welcome the Islamist threat into our own back yard with open arms. It is believed that these jihadists may have already been using our ever-so-tolerant open borders immigration policy to sneak into the US and start establishing sleeper cells.

They're not going away anytime soon. So are you wiling to fight for Western Civilization like your ancestors did? or are you ready to submit to Allah?

I don't think the West has the guts or the will to do what's necessary to win this coming war. To defeat a radical threat it takes people willing to do radical things in order to achieve victory and a cause they believe in. What causes do we have? Consumerism? We don't even have a bunch of radical leftists willing to directly kill for their ideals. There are no more Lenins or Trotskys (thank god) but instead a bunch of perverts, masculine women and feminized men who prefer blogging to action.

Furthermore, religion is neutered in America and progressivism serves as the enemy within, making sure that the nation and culture's natural immune system is weak.

Whenever the warrior spirit and urge to fight rises within the people the politicians quickly try to stamp it out. See: George Bush's pussy advice to "buy things" in the aftermath of 9/11 when everyone I know, including myself, wanted to fight. The opportunity to harness the people's fighting spirit like we saw during WWII was squandered.

And unless tribalism, nationalism or a radical religious revival happens in Western Europe I don't hold out much hope for their chances.

The real thing I'm curious about is what the East is going to do about the march of these radicals.

So what's your "radical" solution then? Go nuke the entire region?

Prepare for the next Crusades. It is going to happen whether you like it or not.

Post: #37

One interesting thing being discussed over here: /thread-39667-page-4.html

is that the beheading of James Foley may have been staged or faked.

Post: #38

You guys are definitely overreacting.
Calm down.
This is not a case of "muslims against us, Americans"
this is a case of "terrorists, who happen to call themselves muslims, against the rest of the world, including muslims who do not defer to their requests"

I know many guys on this forum has a hard on for "crushing Islam" , and whether they say it clearly or believe it, are white christian nationalists, but this is not the right forum for you. People are here for the red pill, game, and self improvment. This is NOT a white christian nationalist forum, or anti Islam forum.

calling for crusades? SERIOUSLY? Are you bloody serious?
Do you realize that by doing this hundred of millions of innocent muslims (yeah, that concept exists. You can be a muslim without wanting to kill any person who is not) would end up dead/injured/moved from their countries ?

Maybe this forum is not the right one for you ( or any christian nationalist, or people who hate others just because of their religion). Here we talk about human values, beauty of life, justice, and equal treatment for people.

Post: #39

(08-26-2014 12:52 PM)mikado Wrote:  You guys are definitely overreacting.
Calm down.
This is not a case of "muslims against us, Americans"
this is a case of "terrorists, who happen to call themselves muslims, against the rest of the world, including muslims who do not defer to their requests"

I know many guys on this forum has a hard on for "crushing Islam" , and whether they say it clearly or believe it, are white christian nationalists, but this is not the right forum for you. People are here for the red pill, game, and self improvment. This is NOT a white christian nationalist forum, or anti Islam forum.

calling for crusades? SERIOUSLY? Are you bloody serious?
Do you realize that by doing this hundred of millions of innocent muslims (yeah, that concept exists. You can be a muslim without wanting to kill any person who is not) would end up dead/injured/moved from their countries ?

Maybe this forum is not the right one for you ( or any christian nationalist, or people who hate others just because of their religion). Here we talk about human values, beauty of life, justice, and equal treatment for people.

Perhaps crusades is the wrong word. I think conquest would be better suited...besides, I don't think a US occupation anywhere would put into place religious restrictions.

What I'm saying is I wish the world's powers would stop calling war by a different name and a different tactic. Conquer the country, plant a flag there, use its resources and make it another US territory or possession. Enough with the pretension that they are helping or liberating anyone.

Post: #40

(08-26-2014 12:52 PM)mikado Wrote:  You guys are definitely overreacting.
Calm down.
This is not a case of "muslims against us, Americans"
this is a case of "terrorists, who happen to call themselves muslims, against the rest of the world, including muslims who do not defer to their requests"

I know many guys on this forum has a hard on for "crushing Islam" , and whether they say it clearly or believe it, are white christian nationalists, but this is not the right forum for you. People are here for the red pill, game, and self improvment. This is NOT a white christian nationalist forum, or anti Islam forum.

calling for crusades? SERIOUSLY? Are you bloody serious?
Do you realize that by doing this hundred of millions of innocent muslims (yeah, that concept exists. You can be a muslim without wanting to kill any person who is not) would end up dead/injured/moved from their countries ?

Maybe this forum is not the right one for you ( or any christian nationalist, or people who hate others just because of their religion). Here we talk about human values, beauty of life, justice, and equal treatment for people.

Dismissing us as right-wing nut jobs does not diminish the threat of ISIS. They want to establish an Islamic Caliphate and they want all out war against the West. Conflict will be unavoidable. We can do something now or doing something later but it is foolish to think that ISIS is not going to do something to the US or Europe.

Post: #41

As IS grows it will threaten neighbors such as Turkey and Saudi Arabia...wouldn't it be far better to let those countries take care of it, offer them support, and stay in the background?

It sounds like the media is pushing for Iraq War 3.0.

Post: #42

It may be a threat. But, even if ISIS could control every single piece of military equipment in all of the middle East (excluding Israel), still the US could crush them. The US may not do nation building very well, but blowing shit up is it's #1 talent.

What would Sun Tzu do in this situation?

Post: #43

Not sure but this situation invokes the paradox of asymmetric warfare. When a weaker army goes against an obviously much stronger one, it can lose every battle and still claim victory merely by existing.

Post: #44

(08-26-2014 01:44 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  As IS grows it will threaten neighbors such as Turkey and Saudi Arabia...wouldn't it be far better to let those countries take care of it, offer them support, and stay in the background?

It sounds like the media is pushing for Iraq War 3.0.

I think we should sit back and keep an eye on it. We should prepare though to eventually have to deal with this threat at some point or another.

It's hard to say how strong they are at the current moment but they appear to be growing in size & power every day. They have literally come out of nowhere. They are no joke.

Post: #45

I can't believe you guys have missed that the areas that IS has taken is identical to what England wants: A natural gas pipeline through Iraq and Syria to be built by BP.

Whatever happens in the ME, will benefit the west. Most leaders have been set up by the west anyway.

Post: #46

(08-26-2014 01:40 PM)objectivist tree Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 12:52 PM)mikado Wrote:  You guys are definitely overreacting.
Calm down.
This is not a case of "muslims against us, Americans"
this is a case of "terrorists, who happen to call themselves muslims, against the rest of the world, including muslims who do not defer to their requests"

I know many guys on this forum has a hard on for "crushing Islam" , and whether they say it clearly or believe it, are white christian nationalists, but this is not the right forum for you. People are here for the red pill, game, and self improvment. This is NOT a white christian nationalist forum, or anti Islam forum.

calling for crusades? SERIOUSLY? Are you bloody serious?
Do you realize that by doing this hundred of millions of innocent muslims (yeah, that concept exists. You can be a muslim without wanting to kill any person who is not) would end up dead/injured/moved from their countries ?

Maybe this forum is not the right one for you ( or any christian nationalist, or people who hate others just because of their religion). Here we talk about human values, beauty of life, justice, and equal treatment for people.

Dismissing us as right-wing nut jobs does not diminish the threat of ISIS. They want to establish an Islamic Caliphate and they want all out war against the West. Conflict will be unavoidable. We can do something now or doing something later but it is foolish to think that ISIS is not going to do something to the US or Europe.

You are overestimating the power of ISIS.
They will not go past the Middle East without colluding with Saudi Arabia/Israel. Who will destroy them, with if necessary the support of the US.

I think it will be more like ISIS gets 2 territories, and implicitly agrees with US to not aim for more than that. And the West has more than enough weapons to destroy anyone who try to cause it troubles within or outside of it.

Just calm down, man.

Post: #47

ISIS would be wiped out if they tried to invade East Turkey, same applies for Israel. I genuinely can't see the region recovering from this for at least a decade and thats if the conflict stops now. Still the threat of European born muslims going over there to fight and coming back is serious.

Post: #48

(08-26-2014 12:52 PM)mikado Wrote:  You guys are definitely overreacting.
Calm down.
This is not a case of "muslims against us, Americans"
this is a case of "terrorists, who happen to call themselves muslims, against the rest of the world, including muslims who do not defer to their requests"

I know many guys on this forum has a hard on for "crushing Islam" , and whether they say it clearly or believe it, are white christian nationalists, but this is not the right forum for you. People are here for the red pill, game, and self improvment. This is NOT a white christian nationalist forum, or anti Islam forum.

calling for crusades? SERIOUSLY? Are you bloody serious?
Do you realize that by doing this hundred of millions of innocent muslims (yeah, that concept exists. You can be a muslim without wanting to kill any person who is not) would end up dead/injured/moved from their countries ?

Maybe this forum is not the right one for you ( or any christian nationalist, or people who hate others just because of their religion). Here we talk about human values, beauty of life, justice, and equal treatment for people.

I generally agree with this but we do need to be aware that there are significant differences between Christian countries, or if you want to nitpick "countries that were primarily established with something related to Christian values), and Muslim countries. With the exception of a few whackos here and there, most Christians seems fine to simply go about their life as normal, often doing the exact same stuff that non-Christians and the culture at large does, and then simply going to church a few times a month to have their sins washed away.

Hell, here in the bible-belt you really can't find much difference between atheists like me and Christians no matter what their denomination.

Having lived in the middle-east, I can't say the same is as-true of Muslim countries. Even the more moderate and liberal Muslims who do things like drink and have pre-marital sex, are less tolerant of certain things than most Christians. A big one, that should be of concern to players, is whether or not they allow non-Muslims to interact with and date/marry Muslim/Arab women.

In my experience the guys that asked me questions on how to date American girls would be some of the biggest cock-blocks in the world. And I am not talking about simply cock-blocking you at a club.

To give an example. When I was in Egypt, one of, if not the biggest, most liberal places in the ME, last I had an American buddy who was part Iranian, that I hung out with. He was staying at this cheap motel and we would drink and smoke hash with the couple of young guys who rant the dingy little thing. They were cool. We even helped one of them get laid by this American girl in our program at AUC. Anyways, one night he and I had both scored some hot Egyptian girls who were down to fuck and these two guys flipped their shit. Not only did they kick my buddy out of their hotel, they threatened to call the cops on us. For simply trying to hook up.

While this example is a bit extreme it is not all not uncommon. Hell, in the west we make a huge deal out of honor killings (I tend to put them in the same bracket as sex-trafficking hysteria) and while they are rare and not common, they do exist.

What is actually much more common is the rape of non-muslim, especially white, women. In my experience I have always chocked it up to a combination of American ignorance of customs and culture combined with the world saturation of American media, but there is also an element of degrading "the other". When I was there last, 5 girls, all white and upperclass American and European, were gangraped from my program. This was a program with maybe 80 students total. Several of the girls had to be airlifted out of the country. While I do put some blame on the girls, they really shouldn't have been dressed that way, it is still inexcusable.

We make fun of feminists and the things they say, but there really are countries and cultures where they will brutally rape a woman for dressing provocatively. And all that is without even getting into some of the Bacha Bacha boys and shit like that.

NB. It isn't all bad. In some ways Muslim cultures are superior in my experience but I don't think we can equalize them with the majority of western culture.

Post: #49

(08-26-2014 09:41 AM)rottenapple Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 09:01 AM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  I don't know anything about their capabilities or what these jets are capable of, but I'll just throw some conjecture out there anyway. When people say they would get shot down by Western planes, do they mean that Western planes would literally be on them as soon as they took off?

ISIS may or may not be smart enough to pull this move, but if I were them, I wouldn't go for the obvious targets of Israel, U.S. bases, or even anything British, French or Russian. Obviously, those targets would likely be impossible, and also, regardless of anything else, those places still have some degree of martial spirit. Instead, I'd hope to sow maximum discord and have the most shock value by picking a lesser Western nation. Say, (suicide) bomb Vienna or Athens, or maybe somewhere like Naples. Stockholm would be perfect if they could reach it. Peel off the weakest members of the E.U. or N.A.T.O. where the population would immediately cave and put pressure on their governments to do so also, not those with the greatest willingness or capacity to fight.

The West has to think laterally like this, because ISIS would be mad to make a direct attack on anything American in particular. As war weary as Americans are, that would still be like prodding a hornets' nest. Any strike on America/Americans would galvanise America pretty quickly to go ballistic. No, the smart move would be to sow discord by hitting the soft underbelly of the West.

You really think IS can just bomb Vienna or Stockholm without it meaning their total destruction? In what world do you live? Bombing Vienna would have a stronger effect than 9/11 in the states since its a fullblown military attack on EU territory. That would mean all the NATO big guns going for full destruction of IS at the blink of an eye. Not to mention that even a small european country has much stronger military technology than IS or any middle eastern country, apart from Israel. I think your overestimating IS here a bit.

There is a precedent for this, actually, several precedents. One is the 2004 Madrid train bombings. The Aznar government was already extremely unpopular with the Spanish populace for involving Spain in the Iraq War. After the attacks, the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party, headed by Zapatero, won. They withdrew from the Iraq War.

Other precedents involve riots in various European nations, most notably the 2013 Stockholm riots where the local authorities cracked down on local Swedes organising to protect their own neighbourhoods and where Sweden as a whole went on to blame itself for the problem, blaming everything from right wing economics (I know, right wing economics in Sweden, LOL) to not doing enough to help immigrants.

I do believe that most Western European nations have been completely pussified. This is certainly true of much of the establishment politicians, media, academics, etc., i.e. people with real influence and power. Any attack upon many Western European nations would have them immediately roll over and show their yellow bellies. Any serious strategy regarding the Islamic State needs to take this into account as a possibility.

Also, I think you're misinterpreting the jihadists' intentions. Would many be happy with martyrdom? Do many just want to sow as much chaos and discord as possible? Would many see either thing as being recruitment methods for a longer term goal of total war with the West? The biggest mistake you can ever make when dealing with another -- and the West seems to keep making this mistake, not just with Muslims, but with pretty much everyone, be it North Korea, China, Russia, etc. -- is projecting one's own values, desires and objectives onto others. Just because I might think my own self-destruction was crazy doesn't mean others wouldn't think their own self-destruction wasn't a good and worthy idea.

Post: #50

Who else wonders why the U.S., aside from the Obama "doctrine," has decided to relax the role it plays in the international arena?

One hypothesis could be that the U.S. is waiting for other countries (especially in Europe) to accept the fact that they need the U.S. to protect their oil supplies, thus volunteer their forces to help topple the I.S.

Another could be that by letting the I.S. continue longer, it will help get rid of Assad, once and for all, and allow them to install a new "friendlier" dictator.

Which leads me to wonder... what economic factor is Assad playing against U.S. interests? Is he blocking the way of some pipeline? (Believe it or not, this happens to be one of the main reasons the U.S. and its economic allies are usually in favor of toppling a government they don't like).

There's a reason the U.S. isn't doing anything overt yet, but it's not because of the country's morale. The best thing that can happen in a shitty economy (like the one we, or at least the majority of us, are living in) is to get into a war.