Post: #51

(07-24-2014 03:10 AM)saeta119 Wrote:  I have to say one benefit of being in the IT field is that you can find jobs all over the world. For example here in eastern europe you can come not knowing the language and find a job with an international company as english is spoken at work.
I know many lawyers hoteliers architects doctors who just cant find something here due to them not speaking the language.
Im in IT and finding a job was not hard.

What resources did you use to find your position?

Did you get your position before you moved there or do you have to have a local address before you get any attention for positions?

Post: #52

Onto,

I agree with you. We Indians are universally hated in every sphere...Even Thai's hate us and never allow us in their bars. Filipinos hate us, Africans hate us, Chinese, Koreans....You name it, we are universally hated. There must be some reason behind it.

..The way Indian society is ...Feeling of hierarchical superiority, groupism is ingrained in our DNA..Worse, we hate each other thanks to Caste...India is very old, done and dusted, the best days are long over...Its a nation in decline...The good guys are long gone...

Whom are we kidding here...We are leeching of off American jobs working for low wages not because we are talented or something or adding value to America....As another member noted..There is no shortage of IT workers in America but they want us as we work for low wage.

Also, I have noticed, they promote us much faster to higher management position than a fellow American, ir-respective of the talent we have...I couldn't understand it before...now its much clearer.

Do not buy the lame stream BS that Indians are all so great in IT and changing the world etc..all BS, fake stories to get more kids join some IT college and produce more slaves for corporations.

Infosys, Wipro, TCS are the worst IT companies in India, hated by Indians too...Its a slave factory, they get contract on dirt cheap prices from US and then they develop the project in a offshore facility in India by making people work for like 16 hours a day.

We are very opportunistic, cunning, dishonest in every field - That's why many Indian IT companies have bad reputation...and many guys who work once with Indian company will always come out with a bitter experience....

Also, this groupism is very strong...so strong that even we do not mingle with people from other states and languages in India itself...like a guy from California will not mingle with a guy from new york state etc...You have to be from the same caste, religion, state, mother tongue to be in a group.

-----------------

Most Indians will get defensive when pointed out on their mistake, shortcomings..The problem is us not them...

From Night life to Corporate IT life....aka from a Thai Bar Girl to a highly educated American IT guy..Why is that every person in all professions have something bad to say about Indians? Why...its so shameful.....It may be called racism if one group says so...however...I hear this from everyone from IT guys in America to Pattaya girls in Thailand to Filipina bar girls in Angeles city to expats from UK to regular dating girls in okcupid ...common now...Its so embarrassing..

Just ask a Thai bar girl on Indians and you will hear her saying we share beer, girls and are cheap, similarly in IT...backstabbing, dishonest, untrustworthy, groupism etc...Why can't we Indians look INWARD and accept our mistakes and evolve...The rest of the world is not stupid.

Needless to say, not everyone in India are like that but its the average of it..all the good and bad vibes combined and you get generally a bad feeling about us.

Onto...You did the right thing by moving away...You saved yourself from devolving ....You have nothing to learn from us other hurting yourself mentally....

I feel so ashamed, some of the stuff we do now is not even classified as Human Emotions anymore....

Post: #53

^That has to be the most damning criticism of Indians I've ever seen on RVF. And that's saying something.

Post: #54

(07-24-2014 07:20 AM)Seaver Wrote:  

(07-24-2014 03:10 AM)saeta119 Wrote:  I have to say one benefit of being in the IT field is that you can find jobs all over the world. For example here in eastern europe you can come not knowing the language and find a job with an international company as english is spoken at work.
I know many lawyers hoteliers architects doctors who just cant find something here due to them not speaking the language.
Im in IT and finding a job was not hard.

What resources did you use to find your position?

Did you get your position before you moved there or do you have to have a local address before you get any attention for positions?

I've taken a few jobs and contracts prior to moving to a location. I get quite a few calls for offers in different countries based on my linkedin profile, for example Dubai, Panama and other countries in Europe. As said by others, build a decent linkedin profile and add your CV to various job sites. I've used the following in the past with success.
www.theitjobboard.co.uk
http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/
http://www.pentasia.com/
http://www.monster.co.uk/ and other monster sites based on location, eg .com, .sg
http://www.pentasia.com/

Post: #55

Threads like these point to widespread lack of consciousness in today's world.

Why is there so much whining? Why can't you just quit your job if you hate it that much?

The only answer that makes a little bit sense is that regarding financial obligations. But it still isn't entirely convincing when broken down and traced back to its root.

I ask you this - Can you only survive on breakfast, lunch and dinner for the sake of happiness? If no, then you deserve to have a crappy job and unending obligations. If yes, then you will be sensible enough to get out of such a job by developing a plan. Minimalism is your ally. I'm not saying quit your job abruptly because there is nothing worse than the emotional turbulence that follows a decision that is not backed with financial prudence. But financial prudence is easily and rather quickly achievable if you are totally focused at it. Think about the breakfast, lunch and dinner thing again.

The other reason people work in these jobs is because they have never questioned their ambitious nature, which in most cases again arises out of conditioning. Why do you need to impress anyone else by compromising your own happiness. Learn to be a loser because that's the only way to win.

The third reason usually revolves around convincing yourself that you are doing a great service to your economy. What BS! There's no economy, there's no country. There's only you! Be selfish.

Bottomline: Start planning. And not a long term plan. A violent and short one. Have the courage. You'll only be happy if you use your talents. The odds of earning a sustainable income out of something that you don't enjoy are actually less than what most people assume them to be. Safe is usually not safe at all.

I can say all this with some credibility because I was stuck in similar soul crushing job in the field of Finance, and I successfully quit that, and now work as a freelancer in fields that complement my strengths. Also on the verge of becoming a teacher/ professor by next year.

The impact of doing something you like on your happiness in unimaginable. It changes you as a person totally. There's no perfect job but there are better jobs and you deserve them. Just be ready to be courageous, take the bull by its horns, face endless criticism and stop giving a fuck about what others think.

Post: #56

I'd love to be on the PM list. I've got 20+ years as a computer programmer, and I'm having a hard look at the wall. I work for a company that is awesome, relatively speaking. But I know that I'm only a couple bad quarters away, or an acquisition away, from being in a shitty situation, or out on the street. The IT business is positively scary for people over 50. My advice to those in their 20s - start plotting your career path that gets you out of writing code by age 40. Unless you're ridiculously talented (and be careful not to overestimate your ability), you are a very replaceable resource.

(07-22-2014 10:40 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  Datacenter guys might be okay in the next five years, but what about in 10 years?

I saw something on twitter the other day about a 1TB thumb drive, then researching it I saw that this news is about 6 months old. 1TB on a thumb? That actually makes my jaw drop a little.

roid, did you write this? This is brilliant.

(07-22-2014 01:26 PM)roid Wrote:  This assumes that the 60-year-old programmer has even learned .NET programming. Every time a new language or technology comes out, the programmer faces a fork.

Have you read The Developer's Dystopian Future? Describes exactly this.

(07-22-2014 01:26 PM)roid Wrote:  You don’t see lawyers being outsourced. In fact, by law, only members of the bar are allowed to practice law, so it would be illegal for foreigners to do American legal work.

And funny how the majority of people making the laws are lawyers...

(07-22-2014 01:26 PM)roid Wrote:  Formal project management is more of a pseudo-science than a real profession, because despite the increasing use of formal project management methods approved by the Project Management Institute (yes they have their own institute), there is no evidence that software is getting better or that fewer software projects fail today than did ten years ago when formal project management was in its infancy.

Way longer than 10 years. The Mythical Man Month came out 30 years ago. Decline and Fall of the American Programmer is 20 years old, and that book was a big advocate of CMM.

(07-24-2014 03:34 AM)THERE WILL BE SEX Wrote:  I do wonder though why a programmer/engineer guild or union doesn't get off the ground..

Ever worked with a union? Careful what you wish for. Anyway, it's not in the DNA of a programmer. The mentality is still the rock star / 20% contributor / superhero programmer. Ever notice how every job posting advertises a superstar or bright, talented team? How is it that every programming team is awesome, yet so much code sucks? In that way, we're fucking ourselves.

What's fascinating to me is the effect on feminism in tech. Computer programmers are I believe the most ignorant group when it comes to women. I have a friend whom I met 16 years ago, we had neighboring cubicles. He was one of the most conservative people I've ever met. Politically, fiscally, socially, religiously, he was hard core - thoughtful, but hard. These days we chat and he starts spouting stuff that shocks me. The other day I almost told him to hear him talk, I wouldn't know he's got sons, because all I hear about is his daughters. It's bizarre because when we met in the late 90's, I was the blue pill liberal and now the views have reversed. It amazes me how deep the feminist mindset has gotten into society.

I've lived the dream and tasted a bit of success. I've been with 3 startups and the last one actually went public and I made some cash. Not "fuck you" money, but a few hundred grand is life-changing money. But just like winning the lottery, you gotta be smart, not going off and spending it all on hookers and blow. I am in a pretty good situation right now but I look around and fully realize that this is all temporary. The hard part is not being complacent.

Post: #57

I work in IT and have grown financially comfortable with my current lifestyle. I feel unchallenged, bored, and wasteful at my job (I'm typing this from my desk).

I would like to make a change, possibly a complete career change. Something I can sink my teeth into, something more location independent perhaps. Something that plays on my passions and strengths. The only issue is my own fear of change - I have grown comfortable with what I have right now. I make enough money where if I were to make a serious career change then I would likely take a pay cut and have to make sacrifices that I currently do not want to make. I recognize that this is 100% my own doing, but I'd like to find a way to still live where I live, enjoys the pleasures that I do, but make income differently.

There is little room for vertical movement in IT, unless you jump ship and company-hop to make slightly higher in-the-door salaries. Doing contract work sounds like it may be interesting, but after almost 3 years in the industry I'm no so sure I want to work with computers, servers, and networks for a long time.

The dream of making your own hours, being your own boss, being location independent, and doing something that makes you feel fulfilled and satisfied with your life is a noble one indeed. Finding what you actually want to do then paving the road to get there can be awfully daunting.

Inside I'm desperate for something more. I'm in a perpetual state of trying to get my ducks in a row so I can make a big change, and living day-to-date chasing more short-term interests.

Post: #58

As a fellow Indian I have to agree with you @starchild5, sadly. I find our countrymen's self hatred and slave mentality the most disgusting.

Sign me up for the PM list! I think people are being too pessimistic in this thread. If you get a job you don't like, you will never get a sense of fulfilment, top position or otherwise. Get into the field if you have passion for it, else don't.

Post: #59

Add me to the pm, this has my attention.

Post: #60

(07-24-2014 10:35 AM)General Stalin Wrote:  I work in IT and have grown financially comfortable with my current lifestyle. I feel unchallenged, bored, and wasteful at my job (I'm typing this from my desk).

I would like to make a change, possibly a complete career change. Something I can sink my teeth into, something more location independent perhaps. Something that plays on my passions and strengths. The only issue is my own fear of change - I have grown comfortable with what I have right now. I make enough money where if I were to make a serious career change then I would likely take a pay cut and have to make sacrifices that I currently do not want to make. I recognize that this is 100% my own doing, but I'd like to find a way to still live where I live, enjoys the pleasures that I do, but make income differently.

There is little room for vertical movement in IT, unless you jump ship and company-hop to make slightly higher in-the-door salaries. Doing contract work sounds like it may be interesting, but after almost 3 years in the industry I'm no so sure I want to work with computers, servers, and networks for a long time.

The dream of making your own hours, being your own boss, being location independent, and doing something that makes you feel fulfilled and satisfied with your life is a noble one indeed. Finding what you actually want to do then paving the road to get there can be awfully daunting.

Inside I'm desperate for something more. I'm in a perpetual state of trying to get my ducks in a row so I can make a big change, and living day-to-date chasing more short-term interests.

Holy shit... are you me? Exact same position. I've worked in IT since College, 8 years now. Make decent money but I'm draining away at my desk. I exert a lot of energy trying to find a way out of this rat race.

Post: #61

I am soon graduating in this field, so add me to the PM list please.

At the moment, at least in my country, this is one of the very few branches where people can actually get jobs, and get at least half decent pay. In most of the other branches here people are either getting hired through family/party connections, or are in top 10% of students.

Post: #62

(07-24-2014 08:17 AM)starchild5 Wrote:  Onto,

I agree with you. We Indians are universally hated in every sphere...Even Thai's hate us and never allow us in their bars. Filipinos hate us, Africans hate us, Chinese, Koreans....You name it, we are universally hated. There must be some reason behind it.

..The way Indian society is ...Feeling of hierarchical superiority, groupism is ingrained in our DNA..Worse, we hate each other thanks to Caste...India is very old, done and dusted, the best days are long over...Its a nation in decline...The good guys are long gone...

Whom are we kidding here...We are leeching of off American jobs working for low wages not because we are talented or something or adding value to America....As another member noted..There is no shortage of IT workers in America but they want us as we work for low wage.

Also, I have noticed, they promote us much faster to higher management position than a fellow American, ir-respective of the talent we have...I couldn't understand it before...now its much clearer.

Do not buy the lame stream BS that Indians are all so great in IT and changing the world etc..all BS, fake stories to get more kids join some IT college and produce more slaves for corporations.

Infosys, Wipro, TCS are the worst IT companies in India, hated by Indians too...Its a slave factory, they get contract on dirt cheap prices from US and then they develop the project in a offshore facility in India by making people work for like 16 hours a day.

We are very opportunistic, cunning, dishonest in every field - That's why many Indian IT companies have bad reputation...and many guys who work once with Indian company will always come out with a bitter experience....

Also, this groupism is very strong...so strong that even we do not mingle with people from other states and languages in India itself...like a guy from California will not mingle with a guy from new york state etc...You have to be from the same caste, religion, state, mother tongue to be in a group.

I work at a "TOP" IT consulting firm (or at least they say they are, from the moment you get in, you start getting flooded with brainwash). Every project has at least 1 or 2 indian guys/girls. Why? They are damn cheap. They are so cheap they are "resources". They work 20h a day if needed. And they have a good level of english (although with a funny accent). I'm working with an Indian girl, and this poor girl works like a fucking mule, doing mostly what I call monkey work (things that don't require much brain activation).



I'm currently doing Success Factors "consulting". It's a cloud based software, recently bought by SAP. The software is bad, the implementation is idiotic, complex and similar things are not made the same way. The so called "experts" from SAP or SF know as much as the next rock. The support guys don't really want to do much, always postponing everything, asking irrelevant questions and raising irrelevant issues. What bothers me is that the rules varygreatly from country to country. German guys can say they had overtime, get paid accordignly and use vacations. I cant, so I told them my work is, whether they want it or not, limited to my working schedule. Also currently i'm doing the indian monkey work, and I will keep doing it for long time. That's the plan for the portuguese office. The worst thing, is that they are getting this "indian mentality" that was described. The managers, senior managers and partners say, proudly, that we, portuguese are the Indians of Europe. WELL YOU FUCKTARDS, IF WE ARE THAT, WHY DONT YOU TURN THE FUCKING WHEEL INTO THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION?! I hate this fucking looser mentality

So, since I have been saving around 90% of the 800€ I make per month, I'm going to tell them to go butt-fuck some other person. I will resign soon then, I will either move to other country and find something in my area of studies there (biomedical engineering), or start my own business, then move and keep going from there.


They try to sell you the dream, and it blinds a lot of people. "In 2 years the company will pay me the new iPhone and in 4 i will get a company car". "I want to be a top performer to get my 4% raise". Then they forget to say the they will sap you of your life.

Post: #63

(07-22-2014 01:22 PM)roid Wrote:  Exactly and that's why I am switching over to become an actuary. IT jobs have low barrier of entry. Actuary, however, has very high barrier of entry. Most people with decent IQ can do IT, not everyone with decent IQ can do actuary.

What do you have to do to become an actuary? I got a 790 on the SAT in math.

Post: #64

Also, please add me to the private message list. I have published a novel and am writing more. I'm going to get out of this shIT career somehow.

Post: #65

(07-22-2014 02:26 PM)JuanQuinQuin Wrote:  I think some people tend to be envious of other professions but the lawn is not usually green on the other side. I have worked closely with doctors and other people in the Health Care Industry and I will not change being an high paid IT guy to being a doctor . The amount of work doctors have to put is insane. After insurance that money is not so great. I remember that for a typical doctor pulling 160 G's and the average work schedule is 65 hrs, the pay is only around 55 $/hr. no biggie in my opinion.

I'm not dumb enough to do that--at least with the country's very fucked-up medical system.

Post: #66

Put me on the PM list too, please. Thanks.

Post: #67

PM me as well.

Post: #68

(07-24-2014 07:20 AM)Seaver Wrote:  

(07-24-2014 03:10 AM)saeta119 Wrote:  I have to say one benefit of being in the IT field is that you can find jobs all over the world. For example here in eastern europe you can come not knowing the language and find a job with an international company as english is spoken at work.
I know many lawyers hoteliers architects doctors who just cant find something here due to them not speaking the language.
Im in IT and finding a job was not hard.

What resources did you use to find your position?

Did you get your position before you moved there or do you have to have a local address before you get any attention for positions?

I moved first, got a local address and then started searching.

Post: #69

(07-23-2014 11:11 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 10:37 PM)JuanQuinQuin Wrote:  Either way, I do not blame Indians. They are doing what I probably would do.

I would not be doing what they are. It's not the way I was raised. If you don't blame them, I'm guessing it's because you've never had to suffer their discrimination first hand?

Blame the indians, they would be shamed back home in India it's just the western world doesnt shame people anymore

Post: #70

Add me to the list as well. I've bounced around several big companies doing virtualization, sysadmin stuff, and client side "consulting" over the last 10 years.

I'd consider myself a rarity in the field as I was heavily involved in team sports, chasing pussy in highschool and college, and never gave two shits about computer video games or anime. I always tell people I don't know well I work in finance to avoid the immediate beta stereotyping this career puts in others minds.

This ability to shoot the shit and be a normal bro but also turn on a dime and get ultra technical has allowed to me the unique opportunity to have change "teams" several times over my career.


From what I can tell it's all basically the same bullshit. On the Tech end you'll be just another administrative cost drain solving stupid peoples dumb problems that is hated by all levels of management who are focused on making money. On the client end you'll quickly end up being outed as the "smart guy" and spend all your time solving stupid peoples dumb problems while an indifferent management chain contemplates how they can milk their new "smart guy" into doing double duty.

It really boils down to

A consultant is someone who gets noticed when things go right.

A sysadmin(IT in general) is someone who gets noticed when things go wrong.


As such I often think about switching over to the web programming side of things as it seems to afford the ability to work for trendier younger skewed web companies and seems to the the most direct route to a location independent lifestyle and freelancing opportunities.

Anyone have any experience with this? I'd be interested to hear about guys who manage to run their own shop doing infrastructure, vitrualization, and support. Seems like finding those clients would be a lot harder.

Post: #71

(07-25-2014 02:03 AM)puckerman Wrote:  

(07-22-2014 01:22 PM)roid Wrote:  Exactly and that's why I am switching over to become an actuary. IT jobs have low barrier of entry. Actuary, however, has very high barrier of entry. Most people with decent IQ can do IT, not everyone with decent IQ can do actuary.

What do you have to do to become an actuary? I got a 790 on the SAT in math.

Pass exam P and FM then look for an entry level job.

Post: #72

(07-24-2014 05:27 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  The so called "experts" from SAP or SF know as much as the next rock.

That got a genuine LOL from me. I'm using that line!

Consulting is such a shitshow. 2 jobs ago they brought in IBM because they HAD TO IMPLEMENT WEBSPHERE OMG THE COMPANY DEPENDS ON IT. Along with the whole Rational suite. Was there ever a product that lied more in its name than Rational? 4 months using that shit and I honestly can say I never managed to figure out how to promote code. And the deal with Websphere is that you can't deploy it unless you hire about 100 IBM consultants to go with it. Oracle, SAP, they all have the same business model. Sell you some shitty barely functional software and then an ongoing labor contract.

One interesting idea: there's about 20 low cost CRMs out there: Sugar & Podio are 2 of them but there's a bunch more. There are small businesses all over the place being run from an Excel spreadsheet, or from the notepad on the owner's phone. These people can do their business but can't do CRM, but they could benefit from having organized lead management, invoicing, bid tracking, subcontract management, etc. Learn what you can about running a CRM from SAP, learn your way around some of the low cost CRMs (entry level price point on most of these is about $10USD / month) and get into business automation.

Accounting is another area. Freshbooks seems to be gaining a lot of traction.

In the US there are all kind of business groups - chamber of commerce or there's all kinds of groups on meetup for lead generation, etc. Get into some of those groups and get to know business owners, or just talk to the businesses you frequent. Find out what they use, what they're doing and where they could use help. It'll take some hustle and the first couple years will be rocky, but I believe there's a giant underserved area in automation for small businesses.

Here's the thing: in the US, clerical work pays probably $30-$40K/ yearly. If you can come in and do it for $10K, the business saves money and you've got $10K - if you can limit your involvement to an hour or two a week and have a dozen customers, you've got a pretty good salary and you're working part-time hours. I don't know what the environment in the EU is like, but it's something to think about.

Post: #73

Hi! I'd like to be on the PM list too, please

Post: #74

Please add me to the PM list. Thanks!

Post: #75

I hate my IT job. The management is just a joke. I am doing everything I can to start my own business.
Often I wonder how things even function with this kind of negligence.