Post: #1

For thousands of years it is men who have had to be talked into, bribed, and thanked, for giving up their independence and freedom to take a woman on as a dependent in marriage. This is shown in India's dowry system and the complete control a husband gained over his wife. Without these assurances, men would just live life on their own terms, and civilization would crumble.

All of this changed in the 1980's (talking about America). Marriage and kids were changed into a radically different form where men were heavily incentivized not to get married and participate in societies oldest institution.

The question is, why didn't men stop having marriage immediately? Why didn't marriage rates and cultural norms shift overnight if the system was changed so radically? I chalk this up to societal momentum. It wasn't immediately clear how heavily women would abuse the system and just how many marriages would be blown up when women were given the option of cash and prizes to leave at any whim of discomfort.

This "societal momentum" is coming to an end. The change in culture from 1985-1986 wasn't dramatic, however, the change in culture from 1985-2014 has been drastic. Marriage rates have plummeted, women's remarriage options have dropped, fertility has decreased, and single motherhood has sky-rocketed. It didn't happen overnight, but it has happened.

The proclamations of, "The End of Men" and how today is, "The Age of Women" and the cries that Utopia is finally here, are similar to the feminist cries of, "My boyfriend is perfect! I'm so happy!" before he inevitably comes out as gay.

Just as women face an individual "Wall" in their lives around the age of 35, America is facing the civilizational wall and no amount of hysterical cries of victory by the cultural elite at magazines like Salon will change this truth.

Men respond rationally to changes in incentives and the structure of society, even if it takes 20 years, and even if many men's heads remain buried in the sand. Furthermore, people are missing the point when they point out that white knights and mangina's have huge numbers.

Mangina's represent the virgins of our society, the clueless, and the mentally weak. Their numbers may be large, but as the amount of successful men have decreased, at the same time, the number of successful red-pill men have increased.

This is the important point that men in the Manosphere miss. It's the successful men (you can be successful and not be that financially successful too) who have adopted red pill ideology in mass, so, even if our numbers aren't even the majority of men, as soon as a mangina becomes successful with women or money, the chances of him switching to red pill beliefs sky rocket. It's in his interests.


So why have young women made a huge mistake? They are acting in exactly the same way as their mothers did, without the support of societal momentum from a more traditional era to cover for their mistakes. Everyone knows the entitlement system will collapse long before young people get theirs. But additionally, young women won't have that back up beta to fall back on at age 33, because any guy with any sort of financial success is most likely red pill and hitting on the 20 year olds, he has become a prized commodity in a world of men devastated by a weak economy and female dominated workplace. Men of marriage material are becoming like unicorns. Sure, fat manginas will be there for them, but this is very different than the men available to their mothers as backup plans who although beta, tended to still be quality guys, simply fucked over by the change in the entitlement system which allowed women to go out with cads during their prime.


As America's standard of living declines and the money simply isn't there to provide for 50% of the population to live basically consequence free, there will be a reckoning for the young hoes of today that their mothers didn't have to deal with. Young women have been sold a lie and the PC college sluts out to change the world are in for a rude awakening.



As young men, if you are young and red pill, you should be happy as hell. You have avoided the traps set by the system and can live life on your own terms. Your shelf life is far longer than your female counterparts.

Post: #2

I wholeheartedly agree with your post.

You put forward the question as to why men didn't just completely abandon marriage in the 1980s and 1990s when feminism/unfair family court rulings were proliferating. I would say that this was due largely to brainwashing by women and the older members of society who weren't quite aware of what marriage had become.

Right now, there are no serious negative consequences for women living in developed Western nations - regardless of the decisions a woman makes in her life, she will be provided for in one way or another. She will receive financial and social support no matter what, and there is virtually a 0% chance of her experiencing suffering or poverty.

However, as you mentioned, this cannot last forever - the money to provide for women will run out. Not only this, an exponentially increasing world population, coupled with decreasing rates of oil production is going to reduce the standards of living around the world. There is no chance that the current generation of females 30 years and younger are going to be able to deal with the results of these sorts of changes.

Personally, I am just extremely glad that I am still quite young (mid 20s) and very Red Pill. Having a Red Pill mindset, a location-independent income and decent game are by far the best things a man can do for himself in this day and age.

Post: #3

Thumbs up, glad I found out about red pill ideology at an early age. Although I had some idea about many of these subjects before hand I never really had a deep understanding about them, until now. It has completely changed my outlook on many things, which I'm really glad for since I'm only 23 years old.

Post: #4

Agreed. Women are generally short-sighted and don't care the entitlement system isn't viable and are completely fine blaming someone or group when it crashes...not realizing it had nothing to do with the people, it was the type of system.

It's like when people are good with the welfare system but then have vitriolic hatred for the guy who abuses the system. It's psychological entrapment. It's like hooking up with the badass and then being pissed off at him when he cheats. They'd rather (1) believe they can live in an ideal world and behave based on this false premise and then hate the guy than (2) accept reality and change their "system" accordingly and settle for the guy without tats.

Point obviously is not hating on women than accept reality. I don't envy them. "I want to be wanted by a non-needy guy." It must be hell bein' a chic with that inherent built-in paradox.

Post: #5

Both men and women will face serious future consequences derived from their actions now.

However, men will be better prepared to face an ominous future.

I can perfectly imagine a group of bros now in their 20s, ending up sharing expenses for house or an apartment well into their 50s, living in reasonable peace and order, even if they continue to have roomies well into middle age. At least they can play call of duty during the weekends and cook some shit. Not different from our ancestors and even similar to bands of male lions without herds.

A group of entitled, post Wall, menopausic women in their 50s doing the same would result in eternal gossiping, rambling and accusations for banal shit. The financial chaos they began in their 20s would continue, without daddy or a beta provider to save them anymore. Add in the traumas from alpha widows, multiple divorces, and the smell from so many cats.

By then, not even omegas would provide for them, and the welfare state they knew when young may not exist anymore, since plummeting birth rates, no marriages, divorces and MGTOW would have destroyed the tax base.

Post: #6

This is why the charge of misogyny of Roosh, Tuth, and others is so laughable. Roosh may discuss pump and dumping as a band aid solution for men, but his advice to women to be feminine, find a man young, and to complement society rather than rage against it like a lunatic, is at its essence, a message of love.

Mainstream feminist society is cruelly selling young women a false future that the vast majority will never obtain-having it all is just not happening for them.

Tuth's advice to grow your hair, Roosh's advice to workout and avoid the tattoos, this is love.

At RVF, we are the cure not only for men, but for women as well.

Post: #7

A change is coming and the liberals will get hurt the most.

Post: #8

"The question is, why didn't men stop having marriage immediately? Why didn't marriage rates and cultural norms shift overnight if the system was changed so radically?"

I grew up in the '80s and can tell you exactly why. People cannot see the future and so they look to the past to visualize what their lives might be like. The past looks a lot worse now for men than it did back then.

In the 1980s, we looked back to the '50s as the model we might base our lives on: intact marriages, two-parent families, steady work. Even if it didn't work out, this is some of what we assumed we'd get.

In 2014, men how have the '80s and '90s as their model: divorce, endless recessions, single mom homes, child support insanity, absentee parents, etc.

So there is no nostalgia glow of the past for most men coming of age today, at least regarding marriage. Therefore, they don't see a reason for it or actively seek to avoid it.

Post: #9

Great post.

For entertainment I tell young women various red pill truths. They absolutely flat-out refuse to accept reality and have no understanding of cause and effect. They obediently follow the herd, which encourages them to go to university and get a career while pushing marriage and family to the back of their minds.

They fall for the romantic fantasies, thinking a high value man is going to appear at some point, fall in love with their unfeminine, overweight, tattoo-covered, promiscuous selves, marry them, solve all their financial problems and then they will live happily ever after.

When reality shatters their delusional, sky-high expectations they will become angry and bitter. Rather than take responsibility for their terrible decisions they will blame men for their dreams not coming true.

Feminist totalitarianism will become worse and worse in the short term.

However, I know young men are increasingly fed up with all the bullshit. Mainstream advice is failing men, but the Internet quickly leads to better answers such as the Manosphere. Feminism is despised not only here but also in other places heavily populated by young men like the Misc and 4Chan.

Gender relations will continue deteriorating. Men will increasingly become red pill and refuse to marry over-the-hill careerist sluts. As Dalrock has pointed out, young men are not getting the signal to prepare for marriage by working hard and becoming good providers. Even those men who don't find the red pill are being seriously affected by this culture.

Women start the marriage strike by refusing to marry while young. Men finish the marriage strike by refusing to marry older, used-up sluts - or simply not bothering to become marriage material.

The Misandry Bubble is becoming more and more true.

A society which discourages men from getting married is a society that is fucked. The Day of Reckoning is coming. Economic collapse, revolution, war. Women are too short-sighted to realize they are driving society off a cliff. They vote for more and more entitlements and privileges, and less and less responsibility - but at some point the money and men's patience is going to run out.

In the coming catastrophe - assuming men keep the electricity, Internet and social media servers running - women will bleat and moan on Twitter, Tumblr and Facebook about how they are poor little victims, while real men pick up their weapons, engage in the necessary violence, and then start to rebuild civilization one brick at a time.

Without the necessary skills to succeed, unmasculine men and unfeminine women are going to find life very, very tough in the coming years. Masculine men will welcome the challenges ahead and strive to overcome them.

Temporarily there will be a return of more traditional gender roles and Patriarchy. But if we can learn one thing from history it is that history repeats itself. To attract women and provide for their families men will rebuild a fantastic, rich, powerful civilization, women will bitch and moan about deserving their equal share despite doing nothing to create it, spineless men will give in to women thinking it will get them sex, and civilization will again decline.

The cycle of economics and war continues.

Post: #10

All of this is true. Good thread.

What concerns me is that I think we may be underestimating, in the short term, the level of coercion that will take place against men. As the system continues to unravel slowly, the forces that control society will increasingly try to force men to correct the problems that they did not create. The government will impose ever more draconian penalties for not adhering to the party line. Shaming and social pressure to bail women out will become extreme.

Over the long term, even these measures will fail. But in the short term, the hammer is going to come down very hard on us.

Post: #11

Men still had there assets and the prospects do growth in the 80's and 90's. Even if the courts rules you pay money if you had opportunities to make more cash soon you didn't really care. Many times the women would bite their tongues and go along for the ride. The 90's were ride with broken homes in which both parents hated each other but just stayed together. The women stayed because of the money, men were content.

In the 2000s the dot com bubble was the first top wave, then 2008, where MEN on wholesale levels had their wealth and assets destroyed. Even in the 80s crash you could still smell prospects for growth, after the 2008 crash things started to smell off for people IMO. Growth seemed limited or non-exsistant, the prospects of upward mobility weren't as easy to spot. Men had to draft a new game plan. Remember always that men got ruined on that downturn, not women. Men now rebuilding the pieces see it for what it really is now. The women bolted when the money was gone, the payments came, they became jaded.

Most men see how a father, brother, uncle, friend, or themselves it destroyed and they want no part of it. For me now personally I want a stable family one day.. But not here in the West. I tell people how it just doesn't compute for me an they look confused. It strait it up isn't smart to get married and have kids here, so as long as I am still here it isn't happening. Period.

Post: #12

It has been said before, that men as a whole can only blame themselves for letting this shit happen. Men as a whole, whose job it was to lead society, failed.

In my opinion it comes down to discipline and self-control, two fundamentally masculine qualities that most men these days seem to lack. The result is that there is a lack of patriarchs to anchor society.

The alphas will adapt and deal with the cards in front of them, build lifestyle and stack paper, and leave the betas to pick up the scraps.

Post: #13

(06-05-2014 01:04 PM)General Mayhem Wrote:  It has been said before, that men as a whole can only blame themselves for letting this shit happen. Men as a whole, whose job it was to lead society, failed.

In my opinion it comes down to discipline and self-control, two fundamentally masculine qualities that most men these days seem to lack. The result is that there is a lack of patriarchs to anchor society.

The alphas will adapt and deal with the cards in front of them, build lifestyle and stack paper, and leave the betas to pick up the scraps.

I agree. Men caused this to happen and men allowed this to happen.

The 'causers' are the extremely rich liberal capitalists who wanted to commercialise and tax hitherto private female labour and to use it to create new markets of consumption.

The 'allowers' were the 'Cat in the Cradle' dads who abdicated their roles of chief, king and priest of the family to become sports fans as part of their team's tribe.

What should men who are aware do? Yes learn game to lose the submissive side to young men that they have when the dating market is against them but work on a high quality lifestyle that women find attractive. Do not marry early and do not marry below your socio-economic level.

Post: #14

Quintus - yes, things are definitely going to get worse for men who follow the blue pill.

Liberals and feminists seem immune to reality. They see the problems that they have created but don't understand the cause, and so think that what we need is more liberalism and feminism.

Blue pill men are going to be squeezed and squeezed until they can't take it any more.

The important question is this: given our diagnosis of society's problems and our predictions for where society is heading, what should we do?

I think the best thing we can do is starve the beast. The feminazi system is propped up by your hard-earned tax dollars. When enough of the productive citizens "go Galt" the government is fucked and things are going to have to change.

Great challenges are coming. The weak, pathetic liberals who suck on the government teat are going to suffer horribly - but masculine, talented men like us are going to have fantastic opportunities to clean up.

I welcome your suggestions for what we can do. My plan:

- stack cash while legally minimizing my taxes (via business)
- be as fit, strong and healthy as possible (via weightlifting, HIIT and the paleo diet)
- get the fuck out of dodge ASAP and take my money and skills with me
- find a pretty, young, feminine woman overseas, have 4+ children and bring them up in a traditional, patriarchal family

Ultimately, men grow through challenge. I look forward to the years ahead and seeing the modern Sodom and Gomorrah collapse!

Post: #15

Good point made above, there has to be a serious consideration on what should be done in the event of this inevitable collapse. The times of being a mediocre male living a honest but humble life, settling for a pension, while being happy in the knowledge that he is providing for his family, is no longer the case. Being location and income independent, while not paying into the system is the way forward.

Post: #16

Good thread all around.

What are some good books or sites to see what EXACTLY happened in the '80s / '90s regarding the downfall of marriage and the ease of divorce? I realized reading this that even though I knew divorce rates jumped up back then, I did not know precisely why, and how it happened, to create what we call the no fault divorce. Plus I was a young pup back then, not particularly paying attention to legal proceedings...

For those of you old enough to remember, was it a particular court case, or just a piece by piece unraveling? And how much attention did it receive. Thanks fellas.

Post: #17

I think the doomsday/naysayers need to tread more cautiously in general (I used to be one), and here's why. People and society adapt to problems in ways that we cannot foresee. It happens slower than the average person can think and react to it.

Examples: -The Great Depression is associated with the crash of 1929 in the stock market. The average family didn't feel it economically until 3 years later.
-Remember the cold war? 20 years of doomsday. WWIII with Russia is upon us. We're all doomed. What happened?
-Even recently in the Great Recession. Generally it's associated with 2008 or 2009, but the economy truly stopped in the 1st Quarter of 2010. NOTHING was happening during that quarter. I know because my customers were freaking out. I literally had customers that experienced $0 sales in 1st Quarter 2010. What happened? Society adapted and figured it out.
-Oil is going to run out. We'll have no energy! Yeah right.
-Pollution is killing us. The earth will be ruined! Right. Technology my friends.
-China is not going to catch us (USA) anytime soon. They are 100% reliant on the West. 90% of the tech coming from China is a copy of something the West did first. China's infrastructure is horrendous. USA's is the best in the world, and no one else is even close.

My point? It sounds like everyone says society is f'd. Every generation has people thinking like that, and they are all wrong. People adapt. Yes, more people will be left behind. More women will find themselves childless, poor, and depressed. More men will be in that same boat. But in the end, society will adapt more slowly than you think.

Marriage in the last 5 years alone has changed significantly. Western marriage now includes gays. Marriage used to be sanctioned by religion. However, the government has violated separation of church and state, and has regulated marriage. The safety net (as Dalrock so adeptly points out) is government controlled child support.

I could talk forever about solutions. One quick one I see is to never marry a girl that has more (or even equal) value than you. I'm 36 and would never consider marrying a girl in her 30's. Hell, even late 20's would be tough for me to swallow. I would consider a girl in her 30's...when I'm 50. If you don't have the inherent value as a man to marry 10-15 years younger, than the alternative is probably do your own thing, or go foreign.

Post: #18

Good post. Touches upon some of the same topics mentioned in the legendary "Misandry Bubble" essay which has been discussed here in the past.

When the money runs out...all hell will break loose. No more weekend brunches with bottomless mimosas.

Post: #19

(06-05-2014 12:13 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  Over the long term, even these measures will fail. But in the short term, the hammer is going to come down very hard on us.

Things get worse before the get better.

Stage 5 is the perception of failure. Everyone knows what needs to change, but it hasn't happened yet.

The fists tighten and try to hold on when the old reality is slipping away.

The good news is that those of us who can see where the wind is going, and go with the flow are going to have a grand old time.

Enjoy the decline.

Post: #20

The decline of great powers tends to last for a long time. There's a long period of stagnation before things just start falling apart. While I agree for the most part on how things are at a cultural/economic head I don't think the U.S. will go out with a bang but more of a long slow drawn out whimper. I also don't think we will see it in our lifetimes.

Post: #21

Feminism and the reaction to it will be only a sideshow. Just as in the past, eating and shelter is more urgent than fucking.

Economic trends and technology will lead and shape political, social and cultural trends. The changing economy and new technology will change politics, culture and society incrementally and unpredictably. Whether the globalization of economy and culture will make societies more resilient or more brittle is yet to be seen.

For example, this forum, particularly the travel section, is an example of resilience caused by globalization. Just as the labor market is globalized, so is the sexual market. Don't like American women? Go to Poland or the PI and find someone. Globalization also moderates political upheavals, because the global market and global media exert a force on places like Thailand and Egypt.

The real problem is not money running out - there will be plenty of production capacity around the world and thus opportunity for added value. The problem will be surplus labor and distribution of income. People of average and below average intelligence will not be able to make a living wage in the West, as that is defined now, if trends continue. Women will and already are working in those shit part-time jobs at near-minimum wage and no benefits in cleaning, food service. Even a lot of tasks requiring above-average intelligence (complex accounting) are now outsourced to places like Manila ("BPOs" - business processes offices).

This has little to do with gender, because half of men are below average, too. The average and below average guys are not going to have the opportunity to provide for and protect their women. It might be more like Houellebecq's idea of a liberal sexual market coupling with a liberal economic market to provide the opportunity for harems for those at the top.

Those at the top of cognitive abilities will have plenty of opportunities in IT, managerial positions and the professions. Those at the bottom will either have to be maintained through redistributive efforts or suppressed in every way - including reproductively. It appears The Powers That Be are preparing a total surveillance and control environment for everyone.

BTW - dowries are an interesting topic in themselves. While in India it's paid by the bride's family, it's paid in other places by the groom.

Post: #22

(06-06-2014 02:43 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  The decline of great powers tends to last for a long time. There's a long period of stagnation before things just start falling apart. While I agree for the most part on how things are at a cultural/economic head I don't think the U.S. will go out with a bang but more of a long slow drawn out whimper. I also don't think we will see it in our lifetimes.

Yes in structural engineering, that's called 'creep'. A structure which has already failed can appear to be functioning as normal until sudden collapse.

People thought that the Soviet Union would last forever but it was experiencing creep for most of its existence.

Personally, I think the US is experiencing creep and it won't be in existence by the end of this century. The rate at which the traditional elements to its society are being marginalised is actually difficult to comprehend.

Post: #23

May be hard for a lot of those to America to comprehend, but the muslim element in Western Europe, is something that will hurt the progressives the most. At the moment, they don't touch the issue, because they see muslims as an oppressed group that is part of their ideological cause. But in reality this is something that will turn around to bite them in the arse, in the future. Muslims as a demographic are on the rise, because they have large families. Their community leaders may use socialist rhetoric and come across as being for multiculturalism and a "modern Britain" because they know this is what the progressives want to hear, and it will bring them support and funds.

So i can see either two things happening, one part of the population becomes significantly weaker, with a demoralised population, a matriarch essentially. Then on the other hand you have a patriarchal population that has their own ideological and religious beliefs, which go completely against the matriarchal society.

Or even the muslims will become liberalised and go down the same path which the blacks and whites have. Who knows but I don't really want to be around to find out. In a lot of British cities you can already see the cultural clash and effects of this, its very interesting to watch.

Post: #24

(06-06-2014 04:26 AM)N°6 Wrote:  Personally, I think the US is experiencing creep and it won't be in existence by the end of this century. The rate at which the traditional elements to its society are being marginalised is actually difficult to comprehend.

Your prediction is pessimistic but I can see it as a possibility. We're reaching a historical perfect storm here that signals eventual cultural and economic decline.

Economically:

Wages have been stagnant since the 70's and have not kept up with cost of living at all. Women entered the workforce to counter the withering of household income..and then came the feminist movement as a result.

The country has an immense inequality gap and the politics as a result has become more corrupt, irrational, and dogmatic. Too much concentrated big money influences democracy in a negative way. The engine of prosperity and stability ie. the middle class is being crushed under a bootheel. If you look at third world countries they all have this type of inequality gap and corruption in politics.

Higher education has become a racket. Education costs have outgrown inflation by a large percentage and the degrees are more worthless than ever. A person of average intelligence with a college degree will be getting a poorly paid average chump job that a person with no degree could get. They will also be left with a lot of debt and no social mobility.

The race to the bottom of the labor pyramid will continue until all wages for the middle and lower classes are depressed even more.

Culturally:

Women entered the workforce in mass numbers back in the 70's onward. This resulted in a lot of homes with a lack of parenting and what we've seen is a proliferation of personality disorders and dysfunctionality coming from generation X and the Millenials. The divorce rate also started to increase when women's lib movement coincided with the labor movement of the 70's. Since all parents are busy working now we are creating generations of kids with NO parents at home. Every generation claims the next one is trash but I can't think of a moment in U.S. history (or any other time in world history) where kids grew up without guiding parental figures in their life at all and have this turn out to be a positive thing. Kids are now raised by pop culture and psychiatric pills.

Many American cities are well on their way to looking like Mogadishu. Detroit, Baltimore, etc.. this is what happens when the middle class dies out and all you're left with is angry unemployed youth, with no parents, raised on trash pop culture.

Everyone has become more selfish, angry, and depraved. There is no spirit or cultural inclination to work together anymore. It's every race, gender, religious, and political affiliation all out for themselves. America has become Thunderdome.

Post: #25

(06-05-2014 12:13 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  What concerns me is that I think we may be underestimating, in the short term, the level of coercion that will take place against men. As the system continues to unravel slowly, the forces that control society will increasingly try to force men to correct the problems that they did not create. The government will impose ever more draconian penalties for not adhering to the party line. Shaming and social pressure to bail women out will become extreme.

I think social pressure on men to bail out women is actually waning - think of all the famous single older guys in Hollywood and business.

I expect the state will resort to harsher measures, specifically a bachelor tax. It need not be as simple and as stark as single guys pay X% more. It would likely be non-obvious, e.g., deductions for single women and married couples.