Post: #26

TonySandos Wrote:what about shoulder cuff pain atop my arms when I lift them?

Shoulders are a delicate structure. I would not want to give advice unless I could actually give a proper assessment. sorry.

kbell Wrote:And what technique adjustments would they be for say the deadlift and squat? Squat is my weaker big lift.

Thats a loaded question. Unless I actually see your technique I can not comment on what needs improving.

kbell Wrote:Do you have to eat a ton to do several big lifts like bench and deadlifts on one day?

You have to eat based on your goals. If your goal is to get big and muscular then yes; you should eat a ton. If your goal is to lift the heaviest weight possible then yes; you should eat a ton.
If your goal is to be strong and lose weight then no; you must take a more calculated approach to nutrition.

Yua Wrote:I actually found Rippetoe to be the best technique/programming coach for beginners.

Rippetoe makes quite a few fundamental mistakes in his teachings. No serious powerlifter has ever fully agreed with rippetoe and there are quite a few videos that point out his mistakes.

One of his biggest teaching blunders is his squat technique; more specifically his stance on hip drive.

CaP Wrote:Are you differentiating between pain with joint/tendon soreness with pain due to muscle soreness?

Yes there is a difference between neurological pain and muscular soreness.

Post: #27

If this narrows it down-

It gives me problems in the area that's posterior (toward front) and slightly at the top that's neither under the clavicle or shoulder ball where it protrudes out with a notch like a ridge. It's by the acromion. Lifting doesn't make it better or worse when I have the pain and it comes and goes sporadically with maybe a day or two of pain with a few days to several weeks before I experience it again. Raising hurts sometimes, usually when I've abused myself with a combination of strenuous work, dehydration, and lack of sleep. I don't know if stretching helps or not. Rotating forward doesn't exacerbate it, rotating backward does sometimes. It pops every now and then when rotating either direction. Never pops when raising arms

Post: #28

(03-27-2014 10:03 PM)velkrum Wrote:  Rippetoe makes quite a few fundamental mistakes in his teachings. No serious powerlifter has ever fully agreed with rippetoe and there are quite a few videos that point out his mistakes.

One of his biggest teaching blunders is his squat technique; more specifically his stance on hip drive.

I've come across a couple of critiques, most of them didn't take the time to understand the actual technique. They watch the video of Rippetoe coaching this kid in red shorts, sees the kid perform an over-exaggerated hip drive, ignores the rest of the instructions and then critiques the over exaggerated motion. Others will see the stance and critique when it is merely a starting point for the beginners because of their weaker hips.

In one video, Johnny Candito critiques the over exaggerated hip drive, but he agrees with the detailed instructions written in SS.

There are some valid critiques, but they are operating under another context. The most well known powerlifters compete in geared lifting. What they preach is undoubtedly the best way to build your way up for a max effort squat in the suit. In this context, using hip drive the way Rippetoe teaches will simply not work.

You'll need to watch the exceptional lifters that focuses on competing raw. Check out Mike Tuchscherer, a very impressive raw lifter that uses a similar squat technique as Rippetoe, looking down and applying that style of hip drive.





Here is a thread on the SS forum where they talk about that same hip drive being used by Dan Green and Malaniechev.

http://startingstrength.com/resources/fo...hp?t=44456

Post: #29

Tony Santos, are you also Saucy who started the thread?

Anterior is forward, posterior is rear. I'm not sure where you're going with this. best communicate with Prophylaxis. Look for his physio thread.

Post: #30

whoops. you're correct. I always invert those and I'm an emt iv student

Post: #31

TonySandos Wrote:I have the pain and it comes and goes sporadically with maybe a day or two of pain with a few days to several weeks before I experience it again.

TonySandos Wrote:Raising hurts sometimes, usually when I've abused myself with a combination of strenuous work, dehydration, and lack of sleep.

This leaves room for too many assumptions. Your description raises more questions than answers.

It could be your bench press technique; could be something you do in your daily life; could be an auto immune disorder. You need to focus on what specifically triggers the pain in your shoulders.

@ Yuan
None of the lifters in that SS thread you posted use hip drive at all.
The video you posted "squat training" does show hip drive. Michael Tuch is strong as hell no doubt about it but his technique sucks.

Shooting your butt up before your chest is not an ideal way to squat. You will learn this as you become stronger and the weight gets heavier. You will start to feel severe tightness in the lower back and an in ability to squat for high reps without pain.

Post: #32

(03-28-2014 06:42 AM)velkrum Wrote:  None of the lifters in that SS thread you posted use hip drive at all.
The video you posted "squat training" does show hip drive. Michael Tuch is strong as hell no doubt about it but his technique sucks.

Shooting your butt up before your chest is not an ideal way to squat. You will learn this as you become stronger and the weight gets heavier. You will start to feel severe tightness in the lower back and an in ability to squat for high reps without pain.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. In the 63 pages used to describe the squat, it never tells you to shoot your hips up before your chest.

The instructions clearly tells you not to do this as it ruins your leverage. Turn to page 46 3rd ed, figure 2-42. There is a picture taking up 1/3 of the page describing this exact phenomenon, couldn't be more clear.

When you have read the book, it becomes painfully obvious when people argue about something that was never recommended in the first place. This is a common misconception as I explained in my previous post.

This is also why the members of SS forum were admiring the hip drive of Dan Green and Malaniechev's. That is how are you actually supposed to do it. But you won't be able to see it unless you know what to look for.

As for Mike Tuchscherer, the technique is great for his proportions to max out on raw lifting, his main focus. Raw is different from geared lifting, the leverages change without a suit and you cannot use the same technique standards as geared lifting. Tuchscherer's deadlift actually got weaker when he wears a suit because the technique simply didn't carry over. It's all about context.

Post: #33

Don't know how many times i'm going to post this on the forum until someone listens but do egoscue.

https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+...ent=safari

IT WORKS!

Post: #34

(03-28-2014 07:44 AM)Yuan Wrote:  This is exactly what I'm talking about. In the 63 pages used to describe the squat, it never tells you to shoot your hips up before your chest.

Mark Rippetoe Wrote:The important things you're going to do wrong
You will lift your chest instead of driving your hips up. This will kill your power out of the bottom by making your back angle to vertical - Page 36

This is false.

The neck and head drive the squat; hips do not.

With extremely light weight it is easy to keep the chest and hips moving in unison.

When it is time to lift heavy there is no way your chest will simultaneously move with your hips.

Heavy weight will force you to do a "good morning" with the bar. This is why people say "shooting the hips up before the chest."

Continue doing Rippetoe's flawed style of squatting and learn the hard painful way.

If anyone cares to read more about Rippetoe's (flawed) technique here is the Starting Strength Book (takes a few seconds to load). You can make up your own minds.

Starting strength

Post: #35

I want to emphasize once again the immense benefits of the rotator cuff stick exercise for general shoulder health and for both healing and preventing shoulder injuries.

I used to get more or less serious rotator cuff tweaks all the time from bench pressing and other movements. Now I never do and it's entirely because of this exercise.

I do sets of 50 of these -- yeah it sounds like a lot but you want to always be coming in a little with your grip as the set progresses. However, you don't need to start with 50. Do these religiously and your shoulders and rotators cuffs will be thanking you every day.

Here is a great thread that describes the exercise in detail, posted by the guy who basically invented it (the great Dante):

http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=6997

And this is the absolute best video demo on how it's done. I posted it before but I'm doing it again because this demo is so good:

Post: #36

Lizard, I have struggled with rotator cuff pain and shoulder pain/tweaks for about 6 months. It has made lifting and playing ball absolute hell at points. I have watched all my pressing lifts drop seemingly weekly despite giving everything I could effort wise to progress in terms of intensity and diet etcetera. I have been spinning my wheels becoming disillusioned by my bodies failure.

I recently took a 5 week break in the hope that this would allow my rotator cuff/shoulder pain to heal and clear up fully. I was praying that the significant rest would allow me to return to form in the gym and be able to recoup my progress in time for the summer.

Note: during this 5 week break I regularly did various rotator cuff exercises like the turning in and out the arm with a dumbell, the swinging sword and other typically seen stability exercises for the cuff.

I returned to the gym last week, the rest certainly helped as the pain is no longer at a level that is debilitating. However I can still feel it and this is definitely holding me back from reaching the actual potential of my muscular strength.

If this exercise that you have posted works and rids my of shoulder pain I will be eternally grateful. You've posted it twice so you obviously believe that this exercise really is the truth.

I have a long piece of light plastic pipe that does not bend that I plan to start using today. I trust your faith in the exercise and I believe this will work.

Post: #37

(03-28-2014 05:50 PM)velkrum Wrote:  

(03-28-2014 07:44 AM)Yuan Wrote:  This is exactly what I'm talking about. In the 63 pages used to describe the squat, it never tells you to shoot your hips up before your chest.

Mark Rippetoe Wrote:The important things you're going to do wrong
You will lift your chest instead of driving your hips up. This will kill your power out of the bottom by making your back angle to vertical - Page 36

This is false.

The neck and head drive the squat; hips do not.

With extremely light weight it is easy to keep the chest and hips moving in unison.

When it is time to lift heavy there is no way your chest will simultaneously move with your hips.

Heavy weight will force you to do a "good morning" with the bar. This is why people say "shooting the hips up before the chest."

Continue doing Rippetoe's flawed style of squatting and learn the hard painful way.

If anyone cares to read more about Rippetoe's (flawed) technique here is the Starting Strength Book (takes a few seconds to load). You can make up your own minds.

Starting strength

What you're saying is generally preached by geared lifters, not a problem of raw lifting.

Check out this article by Greg Panora, a 1060 lb geared squatter's experience of transitioning to raw.

http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2013...raw-squat/

Quote:It’s a hard realization because the weights feel incredibly light on your back, but there is a dark, horrible place, that is only whispered about in multi ply circles. This place is called the hole and it isn’t something one has to think about in a suit.

Most of the well known powerlifters focus on geared lifting and they speak from another place altogether.

You can see in his 2k raw total, he used different technique but the same hip drive is still applied to get out of the hole as Mike Tuchscherer, Dan Green and Malaniechev. None of them failed to keep their chest and hip from moving in unison once out of the hole.

Blaine Summer also uses a similar technique as Mike Tuchscherer and he smoked 849 with a slightly more exaggerated hip drive.





There is nothing wrong with the technique and it works very well for certain physical proportions in raw lifting. As raw lifting becomes more popular, you'll be seeing that technique more commonly.

Post: #38

EGOSCUE IS THE TRUTH.










P.S.- I WOULD BANG!

Post: #39

I did SS for about 2 months and I discarded it. It glorified squats, which is one of the most dangerous exercises when done wrong along with the deadlift.

I switch over to a Push/Pull/Leg Split and my gains have shown.
When I first began, I followed this:
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/push-pull-legs-split/

Currently, I've made some modification since what's recommended is mostly for beginniers.

I will say this, don't do any incline bench pressing. Instead, use the reverse-grip bench press. I state this because a lot of guys want that upper body definition.

The reverse-grip bench press not only works out your chest better, but it's also easier on the shoulders.
Here's a great video on it:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/video-an...-chest.htm

Post: #40

There is nothing 'dangerous' about squats.

It's a fundamental movement for humans

If I knew how to post pictures, right now, you'd see a baby squatting.

Or...google baby squat form. So dangerous.

Post: #41

(03-29-2014 07:16 AM)Blackwell Wrote:  Lizard, I have struggled with rotator cuff pain and shoulder pain/tweaks for about 6 months. It has made lifting and playing ball absolute hell at points. I have watched all my pressing lifts drop seemingly weekly despite giving everything I could effort wise to progress in terms of intensity and diet etcetera. I have been spinning my wheels becoming disillusioned by my bodies failure.

I recently took a 5 week break in the hope that this would allow my rotator cuff/shoulder pain to heal and clear up fully. I was praying that the significant rest would allow me to return to form in the gym and be able to recoup my progress in time for the summer.

Note: during this 5 week break I regularly did various rotator cuff exercises like the turning in and out the arm with a dumbell, the swinging sword and other typically seen stability exercises for the cuff.

I returned to the gym last week, the rest certainly helped as the pain is no longer at a level that is debilitating. However I can still feel it and this is definitely holding me back from reaching the actual potential of my muscular strength.

If this exercise that you have posted works and rids my of shoulder pain I will be eternally grateful. You've posted it twice so you obviously believe that this exercise really is the truth.

I have a long piece of light plastic pipe that does not bend that I plan to start using today. I trust your faith in the exercise and I believe this will work.

It does work -- please try it and report back after some time. Do it every day and try to build up to sets of 50 reps, coming in ever so slightly as the set goes on (the wider you hold the stick the easier it is to do it, so you want to start rather wide and come in little by little as you warm up). Her form in the demo is perfect so do it exactly as she shows. Good luck!

Post: #42

The low bar squat style used by powerlifters is for the purpose of competition. It shifts more load on your back and hips and cuts depth by a lot, just so you can lift as much weight as possible. While I admire Tuscherer et al, I wouldn't use their techniques as recommendation for everyone regardless of their goals.

For everyone else (non-powerlifters), it is not a good squat. You're putting your back more at risk, and also it puts great strains on your arms and shoulders (very common among powerlifters to have pains in those areas caused by squatting).

If you're not a competing powerlifter (FTR, I am, and I squat low bar in competition) you're much better off doing high bar ATG (or as deep as possible) squats. It is a very natural way to squat and doesn't require a fat old Texan coaching you to hip draaaave with your arse (i.e good morning the shit out of every squat). It also works the legs harder and builds leg muscles more, for aesthetic purposes. Plus you can still get freakishly strong with it - if in doubt, look at weightlifters squatting crazy weights, often well over powerlifting raw world records at similar weight classes. And finally, it gives you great mobility for functional strength in everyday task (squatting down to the floor to pick things up = the most natural movement, and saves your back) and athletic movements.

x5 reps are also too few for newbies to develop good techniques and too heavy for them, since newbies have not learned how to recruit enough muscles for the lift. x8 reps or more are better for them.

Post: #43

@Blackwell, one more thing -- depending on how much scar tissue you have around the shoulder area, it may take as long as a couple of weeks to really break it down with the stick exercise, so they key, as always, is to be patient and consistent. Do it every day and keep doing it, trying to improve form and increase the number of reps slowly over time. Then, with time, the results will come (of course you might also see some results very quickly, but the point is to be patient and stay with it for some weeks even if you don't).

Post: #44

Lizard, I trust you and your faith in the exercise. I'm not the sort to do it for a few days and then say 'fuck this' if nothing immediately changes. I am patient and will give this exercise my full commitment.

I started today with a grip that was as wide as I could go whilst keeping my arms straight like the video showed. I did 5 sets of ten over the course of 5 mins or so. It definitely felt good just to have that range of motion. I will attempt to bring my grip in narrower every few days or so and just adjust it as much as I can in order to progress.

Another question for you if you wouldn't mind, I am a big basketball player and have become extremely susceptible to rolling my ankle. I have rolled my right one 4 times in the last 18 months but to varying degrees on each occasion, a couple of grade 1 sprains and a couple of grade 2s. I have recently been wearing a support on my right as with every roll it surely becomes more vulnerable and prone to rolling.

However, yesterday whilst playing some pick up at my local court I drove hard, came up and when I came down my left ankle just buckled. This is the first time I have ever rolled the left. This thing has swollen up like a bitch like always but the pain is more in line with what I know to be a grade 2 sprain as I am only moving on crutches.

I have rolled my ankle attempting to stop suddenly on a hard cut, coming down from a straight jump off a drive and by landing on somebodies foot after coming down with a rebound.

I mean I know how to rehab my sprains but my questions are is it possible I have some sort of genetic susceptibility to this type of injury? And do you have any rehabilitation/preventive exercises or just anything that could help remove some of the scar tissue that's built up in my foot and strengthen my ankle enough to reduce the chances of further rolls? It's becoming a real issue. I am considering putting myself into a position to see an ankle specialist or something.

Post: #45

Blackwell, here are some good preventive/maintenance exercises for your ankles. Obviously these are mostly for after you've rehabbed the current injury:

1. Strapped standing calf raises. Do them like in this video, except you use a weight belt to strap some weights. Slow and steady, trying to get a very full range of motion on both ends and going for long sets of 20-30 reps:





2. Anterior tibialis curls. This is a really underused exercise but it's great for strengthening your shins and ankles. I actually do them on a machine on which you're supposed to do hamstring curls, except that instead of lying on it face down I sit facing the other way and curl my shins. Again, use a modest weight where you can get a very full range of motion for 20-30 reps:





3. Do body weight squats and weighted squats with a very full range of motion for flexibility and strengthening.

4. Find a good massage place and do fairly aggressive massage of your ankle, foot, achilles tendon, and all associated structures. You can also use some self-massage tools for this but a professional might be even better.

Post: #46

Really appreciate that Lizard. I will incorporate all of this into rehabilitating and into my long term routine to hopefully prevent further injury.

I am on my third day with the stick exercise and I'm feeling good. I'm beginning every day with 5 sets of 10 and it relieves some of the pain and tightness I get in the morning. I'll let you know once I feel like I've really gotten somewhere with it.

Post: #47

Blackwell, glad to hear that.

You should try to convert those 5 sets of 10 into a single set of 50 as soon as you can. There is value in the long set that you don't get in breaking it apart; as you keep doing the set with no breaks, it will start flushing that whole area with blood/repair factors which is what you want. Also, the long set allows you to come inside with your grip little by little as the set progresses. The long set is the most effective way to do the exercise.

Post: #48

To the OP:

Since you say that you have not done any sports seriously before, I will assume that you are the typical office drone, meaning you spend most of the time sitting. This type of a lifestyle causes a lot of imbalances. With this you have weakened back muscles (maybe even a bad posture), weakened hamstrings and tight chest muscles.

Starting Strength is terrible for people with this type of a lifestyle, since it just makes all the imbalances worse. It is an open secret that Rippetoe himself can't do bench presses anymore, since he has messed up his rotator cuffs, and is squatting without his ACL. Imagine if his own routine did this to him, what type of a damage it can do to an office drone. Not saying that it's a bad routine, but it needs to be done carefully, and only after you take care of your imbalances.

If you are imbalanced, your routine needs to include more pulling exercises than pushing exercises. So any types of rows are good to balance you out.

For tight hip flexors, you should do these stretches:
http://gainweightjournal.com/exercises-t...e-you-out/

For rotator cuff problems, you should do scarecrows and also an exercise similar to a front db raise, but instead have the arms in a V.

You should also do a lot of foam rolling and stretch out your chest muscles as well.

However I would recommend also seeing a doctor, you never know what type of a problem you might have.

Post: #49

So how are you doing?

Post: #50

Blackwell -- any updates? Are you still doing the stick exercise and has it helped in removing the rotator cuff pain? How about the ankle rehab?