Post: #26

Most people have a decent set of social skills that allow them to get laid without having to worry about "game skills".

I have only met a few guys that were real social outcasts that would need to push themselves on the game front.

I have to agree with Westcoast. Sure, you can do both but don't tell me you can do both while going out every night doing nightclub game and putting in the type of effort to become really good.

I found it takes a lot of time to become really good at something and that is where Westcoast is coming from.

Post: #27

(03-19-2014 09:02 PM)Christian McQueen Wrote:  Game is necessary and always will be.

Christian, nice rant.

What you are referring to as "game" is essentially what I talk about in my work as knowing how to have intrinsically motivated value to a woman.

There are two kinds of men who get laid.

Men who women want to be with out of some extrinsic desire (because he has money, fame, nice car, the right connections to give her a hand up in her career etc.).

These are ALL extrinsically motivated desires. Even a wedding ring and the title of wife are both extrinsic qualities as is the promise of the provision of security for life.

Extrinsic motivation = desire for external things and banging the guy is the means to the end to get them.

This kind of guy is a provider male. He is the first of the two kinds of guy that gets laid.

The second kind of guy who gets laid is not the "provider male" but the "fuckable guy".

In other words women want to fuck him just because he is a fuckable guy.

No thinking to square up whether he would be a "good catch" is necessary here. Women only think that way when following the second of their two primary imperatives (the need for the provider male).

Their first, and more powerful, primary sexual imperative for women is the desire for a strong dominant man who is deeply connected to his masculine polarity.

That kind of guy automatically will have strong frame, good body language and confidence.

Agree?

Post: #28

Wwt also sees the point.

If you go out maybe 1-2x a week and you chat to cute girls you meet in your day to day activities... You're talking to at least 100 chicks a week (you live in a big city after all since you correctly chose a good lifestyle to build off of).

If you can't get laid you just have aspengers at that point.

The real sticky point, is again "don't be dumb enough to search for a spouse" that really makes you become needy and desperate.

You only have 24 hours in a day, you shouldn't waste your time hung over fucked up and on tilt half the time. You should give yourself a "break" to game. Ie: you need to earn the right to run game by working on more Important stuff during the day.

In 4-5 years your game will be better (not a super boot camp guru level) BUT... your lifestyle will be like kerosene on the fire.

Post: #29

The opening post should be a must read for anyone who is joining rvf. It's one of the best posts I've seen on the forum ever.

Post: #30

(03-19-2014 11:24 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  Most people have a decent set of social skills that allow them to get laid without having to worry about "game skills".

I have only met a few guys that were real social outcasts that would need to push themselves on the game front.

Most people?

You mean the average guy that gets married to a 6 that gets fat and divorces him for half his money?

What quality are we talking about here? I am speaking from SoCal in USA. Maybe in the Phillipines a normal guy doesn't need much game skills to get laid without worrying about game ever.

If you want to get laid with consistency of a player with 7+, then very few are in that category I ever meet.

Hanging onto a 5.5-6.0 that a guy in his head thinks is an 8 is the norm here.

Why is a America a place with a dying middle class filled with idiotic men that marry the overwhelming amount of fat girls? This is not a land with men who can get by without worry imo.

You surround yourself with a higher class of men than "Most people".

Why are American men so fucking thirsty?

Post: #31

Quote:You surround yourself with a higher class of men than "Most people".

Doesn't this literally prove WWTs point.

I am sure the higher class of people you are referring to are all broke hipsters... Come on now. Part of the"lifestyle" is your Rolodex. Lol if I ever have to worry about a wingman or entrance into a venue in my city. Rarely spend more than $20 due to the "lifestyle". Because of the lifestyle, see better Rolodex, I have more opportunities to game decent looking girls. It is all a cycle upward. When you fuck a 7 by gaming her as an average broke dude, you've gained nothing. Now go and bang a chick after you've finished work with a client.... 2 for 1 the company pays your bill and you get to send that +1 later. Earn the right to game better looking girls.

The only way you can have "both lifestyle and game" is factually by having lifestyle first. Because re-read cmq's post ANYONE can get laid. This means lifestyle is harder.

Real lifestyle wins. Making money and staying at home doing nothing is not a lifestyle, that's a hermit.

Don't get me wrong you can't go through life talking to no one all day, but if you can't get laid by going out once a week you have aspengers.

Fix your life first. Ass is last.

Post: #32

(03-19-2014 11:59 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  Most people?

You seem to be thinking most men are social outcasts that can't get laid.

Quote:You mean the average guy that gets married to a 6 that gets fat and divorces him for half his money?

Seems you are talking in generalities.

An average guy marrying an average woman sounds about right, no? I haven't seen to many married couples where the woman was fat and the man was skinny. Typically they are both fat.

Are we talking about getting laid or getting married? You think if you got game you won't ever get married? Nah, man, ladies men get married all the time and lose their money to divorce just like the average guy. Just because you are good with women doesn't mean you aren't stupid. I met plenty of stupid guys that were good with women.

Quote:What quality are we talking about here? I am speaking from SoCal in USA. Maybe in the Phillipines a normal guy doesn't need much game skills to get laid without worrying about game ever.

If you want to get laid with consistency of a player with 7+, then very few are in that category I ever meet.

Hanging onto a 5.5-6.0 that a guy in his head thinks is an 8 is the norm here.

Why is a America a place with a dying middle class filled with idiotic men that marry the overwhelming amount of fat girls? This is not a land with men who can get by without worry imo.

Nice rant. What is your point again? Only guys that put time into learning game get 7+ consistently?

Post: #33

(03-19-2014 11:21 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  My points are in bold for easy reading.

CMQ the point is this.

What do you start with? You clearly start with your time and energy building up a lifestyle.

Chicks come second or "ass is last".

Chicks should always come secondary to your 'life', but if a guy wants to become great at Game he has to invest the Time and Energy.

I'm sure in your career in the beginning you had to invest even more time and energy in order to get a handle on it.

If you're stupid enough to be "average" you deserve to fail in the long run.

Define 'average'? If a guy's goal is not money, then he may have more free time to Game. Or if a guy lives modestly on less and chooses to do so then is he 'average'? You're looking at this from a point of cash is king over everything and not everyone views success as such.

If I was an "average guy" I would get my ass out of the financial rut first before I wasted my time chasing chicks. There is no way anyone is going to convince me otherwise.

If you made me average, again I would immediately fix the lifestyle part first. You don't deserve hot chicks if you are average anyway.

Limited beliefs. So a guy has to be in the one percent of income in order to date a 9? Ludicrous.

Millionaire matchmaker emphasizes my statement. Those idiots want a "spouse" once you wrap your head around marriage being a farse (it is) you don't search for the one anymore so it's not even game it's just logic. You don't need game as much as you need to realize you don't need a chick to complete your life.

---

Travesty sees my point. If you are "average" clearly the answer is fix your life before you waste your time on chicks. Girls are entertainment do you have the right to be entertained by a hot chick? If your life is shit you better get off okcupid and fix your life.

If your life is shit, then yes, work on improving it, but there's plenty of time in a week to do both.

(03-19-2014 11:40 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  Wwt also sees the point.

If you go out maybe 1-2x a week and you chat to cute girls you meet in your day to day activities... You're talking to at least 100 chicks a week (you live in a big city after all since you correctly chose a good lifestyle to build off of).

The club is FULL of men who go out 1-2 times a week, but have NO game and continue the cycle of staring and mumbling and trying to get a chick home. That's not Game, that's insanity. They do this because they have no guidebook or mentor to help them learn WHAT to say and WHAT to do

If you can't get laid you just have aspengers at that point.

The real sticky point, is again "don't be dumb enough to search for a spouse" that really makes you become needy and desperate.

You only have 24 hours in a day, you shouldn't waste your time hung over fucked up and on tilt half the time. You should give yourself a "break" to game. Ie: you need to earn the right to run game by working on more Important stuff during the day.

In 4-5 years your game will be better (not a super boot camp guru level) BUT... your lifestyle will be like kerosene on the fire.

There's plenty of men who in there 30's are clueless with women and are just now trying to learn about them and how to deal with them. Is it smart to go through half your lifetime being CLUELESS about women? I think not.

Post: #34

I think your career argument actually bolsters my point.

I worked 70-110 hours per week for 3 years straight. I still racked up 4, 6 and 10 notches. Year 1, 2 and 3 respectively.

So how much time do you really need to spend to get laid?

It's not even a cash issue it's a time issue.

I literally went out Friday and Saturday 3hours Friday 3 hours on Saturday.

6-7 notches per year on average while working 7 days per week (literally). How much time is pussy worth to you?

So lets say I have above average social skills. Then what you need 12 hours a week MAX to bang a chick a month? The math doesn't lie.

---

Also yes you show me a true average guy who can pull a 7-9 regularly and I will show you a keyboard jockey/liar. He will be of above average looks, above average lifestyle or have some sort of status angle. That is a fact. I have been out in the scene for more than enough time. I have met hundreds of legit players and the only ones consistently at the 7+ in rhe looks scale on a consistent basis have status, looks or money backing their game.

"Average man" will not pull top shelf consistently. He must have either looks, status or money. Period. That is practically an insult to the sphere if you are trying to sell some "dream" that your true average guy can pull hot chicks. Never seen it, never will. You need status, looks or money to go up the chain.

Once your baseline game gets you the 7s again lifestyle wins because its the only way to move up.

If you tell me a true average man (not attractive, overweight, $45K a year) can meet you to "learn game" and bang 9s I will seriously laugh. This is factually the definition of average (5'7" average height, $45K income average in the USA, overweight also the average).

Average man is pathetic, he is out of shape, broke and has an unattractive face (due to being fat). By bringing in body building or some such increase that would be... You guessed it... Lifestyle.

Post: #35

(03-20-2014 12:09 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 11:59 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  Most people?

You seem to be thinking most men are social outcasts that can't get laid.

Quote:You mean the average guy that gets married to a 6 that gets fat and divorces him for half his money?

Seems you are talking in generalities.

An average guy marrying an average woman sounds about right, no? I haven't seen to many married couples where the woman was fat and the man was skinny. Typically they are both fat.

Are we talking about getting laid or getting married? You think if you got game you won't ever get married? Nah, man, ladies men get married all the time and lose their money to divorce just like the average guy. Just because you are good with women doesn't mean you aren't stupid. I met plenty of stupid guys that were good with women.

Quote:What quality are we talking about here? I am speaking from SoCal in USA. Maybe in the Phillipines a normal guy doesn't need much game skills to get laid without worrying about game ever.

If you want to get laid with consistency of a player with 7+, then very few are in that category I ever meet.

Hanging onto a 5.5-6.0 that a guy in his head thinks is an 8 is the norm here.

Why is a America a place with a dying middle class filled with idiotic men that marry the overwhelming amount of fat girls? This is not a land with men who can get by without worry imo.

Nice rant. What is your point again? Only guys that put time into learning game get 7+ consistently?

I have known many many guys that have better looks, $, and potential than the girls they are currently dating or married to and they are pussy-whipped, not fucking everything in sight.

I have known many guys that are decent looking, have $, go out, have many friends, can't get laid consistently.

These guys have the potential to get laid sure. Their lack of Game puts them in this bad position in the first place.

I think casting all these men as a social outcasts or Asperger because their lack of Game (using their potential) is off.

I've known a handful of naturals in my life that got laid with 7+'s consistently when they wanted. Most other guys I have known (100's) in life just settled for 5-6's and could have done better with Game . Most guys of all stripes I know could benefit highly from concentrating on "game skills" more.

Like I said before though not much need to focus on game skills if you can bang what you want in that time of your life.

Many guys are not at that level though.

Post: #36

(03-20-2014 12:29 AM)Travesty444 Wrote:  I have known many many guys that have better looks, $, and potential than the girls they are currently dating or married to and they are pussy-whipped, not fucking everything in sight.

I have known many guys that are decent looking, have $, go out, have many friends, can't get laid consistently.

These guys have the potential to get laid sure. Their lack of Game puts them in this bad position in the first place.

I think casting all these men as a social outcasts or Asperger because their lack of Game (using their potential) if off.

Maybe this is a generation thing...

We didn't sit around playing video games all the time but actually went out into social atmospheres and talked to people.

I have never seen a socially aware person not able to get laid.

Only guys that were "outcasts" or maybe a better term is socially inept. Hell even some of those guys were getting laid and for them they did decent.

As far as I am concerned, a lot of this game stuff is just being out there talking to people. The more you interact with women, the more you get laid. I don't see any magic in this but for some here they talk about it as the holy grail.

If we are talking marriage, the last thing you should be looking at is looks. Your marriage won't last if that is what you base happiness and success on.

Post: #37

(03-20-2014 12:24 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  I think your career argument actually bolsters my point.

I worked 70-110 hours per week for 3 years straight. I still racked up 4, 6 and 10 notches. Year 1, 2 and 3 respectively.

So how much time do you really need to spend to get laid?

It's not even a cash issue it's a time issue.

I literally went out Friday and Saturday 3hours Friday 3 hours on Saturday.

6-7 notches per year on average while working 7 days per week (literally). How much time is pussy worth to you?

So lets say I have above average social skills. Then what you need 12 hours week MAX to bang a chick a month in 2-3 years? The math doesn't lie.

Without being a dick and I'm truly not, because I like you and am a big fan of your blog as you know, but those are very low numbers, IF a guy is trying to get Great at Game.

I'm not talking about being average with Game, I'm talking about being fucking great.

Now before you get pissed at my opinion, that was a choice you made and I'm sure the sacrifice you made in order to work hard has paid off for you because it was a priority.

Never did I say in my post, that someone shouldn't focus on both lifestyle AND Game, what I'm saying is that a Lifestyle alone does not replace Game. Ever. Period.

One can and should focus on BOTH aspects: game and lifestyle, but the point of the post is that Lifestyle alone does not = Game. It just doesn't.


Quick Scenario for you:

You're at a party and it's chocked full of Victoria Secret Models.

You start chatting with one and you tell her what you do. You're not aware that her last boyfriend was Jason Statham and her current FWB is Adam Levine.

WIthout being a dick once again, do you think that your career will be the tipping point to get her into bed? Over the A-list stars she's used too. No. Your Game would be the tipping point because you would know HOW to work her to get her into bed.

When you reach that NEXT level of social circle, let me assure you as you probably know, that everyone has money, everyone has fame, so what is the tipping point? Game.

If you have to be rich and famous in order to pull dimes, then I guess everyone on this board should just give up, because unless we all become A-List stars we'll never taste the pussy of a VS model.

Post: #38

(03-20-2014 12:37 AM)Christian McQueen Wrote:  Without being a dick and I'm truly not, because I like you and am a big fan of your blog as you know, but those are very low numbers, IF a guy is trying to get Great at Game.

I'm not talking about being average with Game, I'm talking about being fucking great.

As far as I am concerned, that is where your argument fails when talking about doing both.

You can't get go from your average guy with supposedly no game to some elite gamer without living and breathing the concepts for a long time.

It isn't a part time gig. Let's be honest here, how long have you been hitting the nightclubs before you came out with your book? How many times a week are you out in social atmospheres partying it up? Do you really think you could continue with your lifestyle if you had a 9-5 grind?

I have a feeling you put a lot of time into it. Probably more than you could remember with all the partying. ha!

Everything I have gotten really good at, that made me stand out, has taken 5+ years (probably longer if I really think about it) of daily grind.

For example, for me to do what I have done in my business, I would have never been able to do it part time while working for someone else.

I had to put in 70+ hours a week consistently and we are talking roughly 10 years.

Post: #39

Anyone who reads CMQ's post just above me and agrees that game would be the tipping point is mentally checked out as to how the USA works.

The tipping point for the VS model is obvious. "Who she finds most handsome".

The trend is the masculinization of women.

---

Lets play a more realistic game. Go out with makeup on to make yourself look "average" now tell me how many chicks want to bang you if they didn't know you you're a promoter.

Be "average" for a day. You'll get blown out.

Lifestyle is really what is tipping your own life, cmq, it is not your game. Take away the accelerator and you're not banging hot chicks anymore, neither would I if went out dressed like shit and had no connections in the city.

----

To be honest I don't think my numbers are low. Give me 3 nights out and I will get laid. That's is a 33% rate. Incredibly high for this forum. I don't promote, meaning I only go out once a week and I don't even spend money. I have no status.

So I am pretty much a lot more "average" upon hello than one would think.

Racking up 100 notches and going out 7 days a week sounds like a train wreck disaster to me. (Obviously you're an exception since it is your job to do so).

Post: #40

WWT and WC,

I get what you all are saying and agree, but I respectfully think you're downplaying game, and the relationship between the both. Yes, just about anyone can get laid. That's true, but I think what we're all here to do(RVF), is improve our lifestyle AND game. While most people can get laid, that doesn't mean they're pulling 7's and above consistently, or keeping a girl on lock should he decide to have a relationship/marriage.

I see the two things as complimenting one another, and being symbiotic. They should both be developed at the same time. One could argue that you should get your lifestyle together first, before you start learning game. I think this is valid. On the other hand, having game applies to work related things as well, which can in turn lead to a better lifestyle. Do you think the Wolf of Wallstreet guy would have made his lifestyle what it was without GAME/SWAGGER?

It's not completely black and white. I guess the question you might have to ask yourselves (everyone), is that do you get the quality and quantity of women NOW because of game or your lifestyle? Do you live the lifestyle you do now because you "gamed" the people around you?

Like I said in my earlier post, I had a lot going for me in HS, but was lacking in skills with women. For me, I'd say it's GAME that is putting more quality girls in front of me so to speak, and it's GAME that is helping me climb the ladder in my career. Because as we know with many jobs, it's your connections, your networks...who you know that really helps, not what you know. Your game/swagger/charisma all help build those things.

Post: #41

Hit the nail on the coffin Mcqueen.

Game is the great equalizer...and the location that is living proof? Vegas.

Everyone from million dollar making CEOs to bros earning minimum wage enjoy a weekend in Vegas, and despite one having way more money than the other...a club's a club. It's full of a lot of women, and they're looking for a good time. Million dollar man can buy a table, while the bro is drinking Buds but whoever has better game will get the girl.

Post: #42

(03-20-2014 12:43 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  Anyone who reads CMQ's post just above me and agrees that game would be the tipping point is mentally checked out as to how the USA works.

The tipping point for the VS model is obvious. "Who she finds most handsome".

The trend is the masculinization of women.

---

Lets play a more realistic game. Go out with makeup on to make yourself look "average" now tell me how many chicks want to bang you if they didn't know you we're a promoter.

Be "average" for a day. You'll get blown out.

Lifestyle is really what is tipping your own life, cmq, it is not your game. Take away the accelerator and you're not banging hot chicks anymore, neither would I if went out dressed like shit and had no connections in the city.

If you say women are becoming masculine in how they prioritize looks, that simply backs up my point: If a guy is average in looks DESPITE having built up his bankroll, fitness and status, then is he ass out now because he doesn't look like a male model?

Then what is the point of Game?

Guess what guys, you're not good looking so you're fucked.

Lastly, I do not have male model good looks, so saying I rely on looks isn't accurate. Nor relying on status, because I regularly go to parties and venues unconnected with zero apparent status and still pull.

The best compliment description I'll get, IF I get one, is "you're sexy". When I ask what that means, girls say "Your DEMEANOR and SWAGGER. You're not handsome in a OMG that guy is hot way".

Although it stings, it is what it is. I have developed a personality and style and game that all combined is attractive.

Adressing your last point:

I clearly stated in the initial post that I still pulled when I was living in my car, homeless, on food stamps, not working out and with ZERO status, connections or even working out. I then stated that the only way I pulled was because of Game. This refutes your statement that the only reason I pull now, is due to my lifestyle.

Post: #43

^alright we can agree to disagree I've made my points. I never said you rely on your looks, I know you are above average looking factually because I doubt you are fat, short and don't work out. Average man is fat short and doesn't work out. That was the real point, you don't eve know what it is like to be average because your "life" see "lifestyle" is not average.

I will leave you with the same correct words: I don't care what a woman says I care what she does.

Post: #44

(03-20-2014 12:55 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  ^alright we can agree to disagree I've made my points.

I will leave you eight he same correct words: I don't care what a woman says I care what she does.

I don't really follow this thread anymore.

Are we talking about getting laid with attractive women or banging out models?

Is the average guy not getting laid or is he?

Are we talking about the top ten percent in skills or just enough to bang attractive women?

There is a disconnect here.

Post: #45

Eg the edits: Cmq we are talking past each other my man.

I will bet all of my money right now that you are a good looking dude though. Not even hating you know I respect your work, but your story line tells it all. Anyone who thinks you're average looking has to be a social retard. Again average looking is defined by looking up the stats.

I know zero people in real life who are average looking who can bang chicks while being homeless so factually, there is no way you are ever going to be average.

That statement applies to me as well. I will never factually be average.

If you end up being a short fat ugly dude on dateline (nightline I forget) I'll send you a check haha. We all know that's not happening and we haven't even met!

Post: #46

(03-20-2014 01:02 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  Eg the edits: Cmq we are talking past each other my man.

I will bet all of my money right now that you are a good looking dude though. Not even hating you know I respect your work, but your story line tells it all. Anyone who thinks you're average looking has to be a social retard. Again average looking is defined by looking p the stats.

I know zero people in real life who are average looking who can bang chicks while being homeless so factually, there is no way you are ever going to be average.

That statement applies to me as well. I will never factually be average.

If you end up being a short fat ugly dude on dateline (nightline I forget) I'll send you a check haha.

Head to the bank tomorrow.

Agreed to disagree and I'll still buy you a shot in Vegas.

Post: #47

I think the game required to be able to pull 7s and 8s can be learned in a few years (like 3) if you are an above average looking guy.

The lifestyle required to fuck 9s and 10s ( and 7s and 8s as an older guy) could take a lifetime plus a bit of luck in many circumstances..

A 9.5 has sooo many options that a guy whose only value is creating some tingle feeling with game can't compete. Hell he might not even have access to the elite social circles and party scenes where girls like this are found. If he does have some in, like McQueen's club promotion, I'd say that's part of his lifestyle..

Which is more sad? The guy who is a millionaire and hasnt learned game so he has to spend some extra thousands out of his millions to get help banging girls..

Or the guy who consumed all his time fucking random 7s and 8s through cold approach and online game until he reaches the point where his age catches up to him and he realizes he didnt invest in a lifestyle to keep things going in the future so he has to settle for crap..

I don't believe game can 'equalize' an average, short, chubby dude into somehow gaining access to elite social circles and outcompeting all the men within it to fuck the highly coveted 10s..

West coast is making good points.. McQueen overall I think your article is great but calling game the great equalizer is not true... I also think it is counterproductive for guys to try to be that cool guy who fucks hot girls despite bringing nothing to the table value wise except the practically inexplicable magic of game... Can you break it down for us in such a way that we could all reproduce those results with hot women while living out of a car?

Following this path is unlikely to be the best long term choice because too much game is just consumption.. Lifestyle is an investment.. We just have to find the right balance.. The time to fuck yet another 7 might be better spent on our businesses and in the gym to eventually get to 8s and 9s.. On the other hand some guys work work work and never learn game and enjoy the feminine fruits of their labor.. Aka millionaire matchmaker..

In the end.. Lifestyle and game are both necessary but not sufficient to fuck the best girls in the world..neither alone will get you the best of the best..

In your example. If a guy finds himself in a position where he has a chance to hit on Adam Levine's fuck buddy obviously he has an elite lifestyle.. Of course to close the deal he needs A+ game but to use that example is absurd and harms your argument..

Game is not the great equalizer you say it is unless you can explain how this hypothetical average dude finds himself with access to celebrities' girlfriends though the power of game alone..

"hey man are you throwing a party here with a bunch of models and actresses that fuck A list stars? Cool I'd like to be invited too because I have great game and would be a big hit with all the girls, thanks so much!!"

Post: #48

^The scenario regarding the VS models was for West Coast to answer, which I explicitly stated, as he has himself has posted about being at a party with VS models.

If you re-read the thread thoroughly it'll make sense in the context of my scenario which isn't a stretch based on what West Coast has said in a different thread.

Post: #49

I'm glad someone finally said it. Great post.

Post: #50

I think the overall premise is, after a certain point your lay success with game will plataeu which is fine. Eventually though, you may want higher quality which necessitates hitting the gym, getting a good job/bank roll, and other things.

I hang with a group of girls who love going on online dates with herbs who make good money. They mock them for all of the blue pill BS stuff and say they want a guy that treats them right while I go and tease and play with them. They'll never admit it but they don't want these guys because they're boring.

A pile of wood a fire does not make, unless a spark (game) ignites it. Hence the importance of both especially for players just getting out of the educational conveyor belt.