Post: #101

(06-24-2011 12:08 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

(06-24-2011 11:47 AM)Luckystar Wrote:  Entropy, Aliblahba

Pretty high compliments for EE. There's a lot countries in the EE.

If you had to breakdown the region in terms of sheer beauty, what would be your top 3? (excluding Russia, I wouldn't consider it EE).

I just so happen to have 4 month to spare and was thinking of settling in one place. Have been thinking Sweden, Poland or Romania....

I was in Estonia, and was awestruck at the sheer beauty. Above the modelesque bodies were the defined facial features and unbelievable eyes. The consensus from Swedes and Finn's I talked to was that Estonian girls were the hottest in the region. They couldn't be any hotter anywhere else. Occasionally I'd see chicks from Latvia or somewhere else, but I classify them all the same----AMAZING. Funny though, one of the hottest I saw was Russian, and she approached me.

Even in the dead of winter stag parties were tearing the place down on weekends. I did see a lot of Italians roaming through, as Mr. GM was asking on another thread.

I don't have enough experience to advise you where to land for 4 months in EE. I've heard good and bad on Romania. If it was me I'd drop the quality a little and head to Finland. The girls were WAY more responsive.

Estonia is the shit!

Was there in Tallinn the july of 2009.
It's true,hot girls(mostly blonds) with eyecolors never seen before.

But check this video with a nice song in honor of the women of Estonia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkJ0hOFvP9I

Post: #102

Ok. But how are they to get in bed for a passing tourist there for 1 month? What's the point of all that beauty around you if it's not waking up to cook you breakfast?

Is it anything like Latvia where foreigners are avoided by local girls?


Mixx

Post: #103

(06-24-2011 01:10 PM)MiXX Wrote:  Ok. But how are they to get in bed for a passing tourist there for 1 month? What's the point of all that beauty around you if it's not waking up to cook you breakfast?

Is it anything like Latvia where foreigners are avoided by local girls?


Mixx

It's doable in one month. Thing is Tallin is wore out. Go anywhere outside there except maybe Tartu and you won't find English. I had some hot chicks show interest but nothing at all that would've lead up to a ONS which is what I was looking for. And that was my downfall. It's all about time there.

I think Peoloom was living in Tallin. He could probably give a better rundown on how it's done.

Post: #104

Tallinn sure seems like its played out. It's a pretty small place, they gotta be tired of all the horny pigs that come through there. Also, nightlife probably really sucks sun to thurs.

Mixx, sounds like Helsinki is more your calling. Everyone talks about how easy it there. Probably because it's an afterthought to the Balitics and Scandinavian countries.

Post: #105

In Russia, I laid 3 girls in 4 weeks. But it took me 1-2 weeks to work up a pipeline. In Budapest, I only laid one girl (not Hungarian unfortunately), but I felt like if I had 2-3 weeks there, I could have gotten the flag. Here in Ukraine it's the same deal. It's doable. You just have to suffer through a lot of language barriers and rejections. I imagine if I was here for 2+ weeks, it wouldn't be a problem at all.

Like I said in the last post, if you aren't willing to put in the effort, then you shouldn't bother coming out here. You're going to be in for a rude awakening. If you don't want to work that hard for a flag, then that's fine, but be honest about it. Don't blame the girls or the culture or whatever. Just go to Helsinki, or Berlin or whatever. Yeah, the girls aren't nearly as hot there, but guess what? There's nothing worth having that doesn't take work.

Haven't been to Estonia, but honestly I can't imagine girls getting hotter than they are here in Odessa. I thought Budapest and St. Petersburg were impressive, but this is even better.

Post: #106

@Entropy4- You're confirming my conclusion; it is easier to get laid in Russia than EE. If my travels ever take me back to that area, I'll skip the old Soviet bloc altogether and land in St. Petersburg or Moscow. It's not the effort I'm shying away from, but the time needed. And time=money.

I saw some beautiful Russian girls over there. They may not be exactly as hot as some in the EE, but fuck. Hot is hot. I'm not one to squabble over a half point on the looks scale. And I have a sneaking suspension the Motherland hasn't been ruined by stag parties.

Post: #107

(06-24-2011 02:26 PM)Luckystar Wrote:  Tallinn sure seems like its played out. It's a pretty small place, they gotta be tired of all the horny pigs that come through there. Also, nightlife probably really sucks sun to thurs.

Mixx, sounds like Helsinki is more your calling. Everyone talks about how easy it there. Probably because it's an afterthought to the Balitics and Scandinavian countries.

You calling me a horny pig man? I'm a Horny Boar mind you!

yeah, I gotta hit Helsinki/Finland soon after Montreal.


Mixx

Post: #108

@Ali - Yeah, I'm almost scared to post a datasheet on St. Petersburg because I still feel like my experience there was too good to be true. Although I still might because I imagine most people here wouldn't bother to deal with the expensive visas, the shitty accommodations and the massive language barrier. I'd just fucking cry if that city ever became overrun with horny British and Italian tourists. But let's just say I will be going back to Russia and spending a lot of time there in the next year or two, possibly living there for 3-6 months.

EE is different from Russia. EE is more conservative, more social circle oriented. Russia is a free-for-all, being an American is a bigger advantage. Russians are up for anything. EE's need to know you and make sure their friends check off on you. I'd almost say Ukraine is to Russia what Argentina is to Brazil -- but in a really bizarro fucked up Soviet kind of way.

I plan on writing up half a dozen data sheets at some point when I get the time. I've got a lot of business shit to finish up in the next few weeks, but then I'd like to take a couple weeks off work, relax and probably write up a bunch of them then.

Post: #109

Entropy4 - anxiously awaiting the Russia report, not sure if we have a solid one on here or not.

Post: #110

(06-24-2011 01:10 PM)MiXX Wrote:  Ok. But how are they to get in bed for a passing tourist there for 1 month? What's the point of all that beauty around you if it's not waking up to cook you breakfast?

Is it anything like Latvia where foreigners are avoided by local girls?


Mixx

Dude, Latvian chicks hardly avoid foreigners. They hardly avoid any men. You are talking about a country that probably has on average more 8's than any other country in the world, while at the same time has a major shortage of men. I dont know what gave you this impression? You should be cleaning up in Riga. The darker your skin the more you will struggle there though, but thats about the only hindrance for anyone.

I need to emphasise this point guys.

LANGUAGE, LANGUAGE, LANGUAGE!!!!!!!

Understand that most EE women are not like western women. Western women are far more liberal and they are easy to fuck. EE women are no saints, but most are a little more conservative.

If you are going to travel to these places, just adhere to a few simple basics. I feel like I am repeating myself, but its simple. Stick to these basic rules and you should clean up.

I found it easier in Riga and Kiev than Rio. By far.

1 - If you dont speak the local language, GO ONLINE. Line shit up before you get there and keep working it when you are there. You cannot approach women and work the numbers because so few speak English. Many that can are shy to speak it, and even though they may want to get to know you, they actually want to talk to you. Jesus, they are people man, not cattle. They are desperate to meet guys, they just dont chase ONS openly, even though most will fuck on the first night if they are into you. If they are really into you they make you wait a day or two. EE women want marriage and kids and thats a bigger priority for them than career. These are real women, not the men with tits you grew up with. Treat them as such

2 - If you are in a capital, dont tell them you are only on a holiday. EE has been inundated with sex tourists and there is a stigma associated with it. You are on business, looking for work, etc. Something that may be permanent.

3 - Mind your manners. Cocky funny routines and alpha posturing will kill you. At the same time, beta behaviour will see them openly despise you. Seduce her like you would Ava Gardner, not Kesha or Lindsey Lohan. Thats the difference. EE = Vivien Leigh, the west = Paris Hilton

Ok, now onto the looks of the women

The further north you go, the more blondes you tend to see. If you like blonde hair and blue eyes, Estonian women are ridiculous. A lot of dark haired women with blue eyes too. Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia are blonde factories.

The further south you go, the darker the features get. Romanians and Hungarians could pass for Mediterraneans in many cases.

For me there is no major differences between the countries and the whole of EE produces on average women 1-2 points higher. They walk a lot so they stay in shape and I think this plays a part in it, not to mention how they dress.

Another thing worth mentioning. Age means little in EE and Russia. You could be in your mid forties and women in their early 20's are still up for it. In fact, age works in your favour.

For me, the countries that stand out are Estonia, Latvia and Ukraine.

Post: #111

(06-25-2011 02:30 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  Dude, Latvian chicks hardly avoid foreigners. They hardly avoid any men. You are talking about a country that probably has on average more 8's than any other country in the world, while at the same time has a major shortage of men. I dont know what gave you this impression?

Ummm.. This thread right here:


/thread-5143.html


Gmanifesto even said he is not packing his bags anytime soon to return there, and he is one of the top players of the forum!

So what's the deal?



Mixx

Post: #112

(06-24-2011 09:20 PM)Entropy4 Wrote:  @Ali - Yeah, I'm almost scared to post a datasheet on St. Petersburg because I still feel like my experience there was too good to be true. Although I still might because I imagine most people here wouldn't bother to deal with the expensive visas, the shitty accommodations and the massive language barrier. I'd just fucking cry if that city ever became overrun with horny British and Italian tourists. But let's just say I will be going back to Russia and spending a lot of time there in the next year or two, possibly living there for 3-6 months.

EE is different from Russia. EE is more conservative, more social circle oriented. Russia is a free-for-all, being an American is a bigger advantage. Russians are up for anything. EE's need to know you and make sure their friends check off on you. I'd almost say Ukraine is to Russia what Argentina is to Brazil -- but in a really bizarro fucked up Soviet kind of way.

If you plan a mini-retirement in Russia or EE next year let me know. Since joining the forum the mistakes I made in Tallinn have been made obvious, and all are easily correctable. IME, that was the hardest place to swoop, but once mastered, the rest of the world will become easier. Tallinn was a great crossroads between Helsinki and St. Petersburg, with a lot of girls coming through, even in the dead of winter. I'm still planning a long hiatus starting as early as December, and could put Russia or EE down for 3 months starting next spring.

Btw, I don't think a rowdy stag party would last the night in Russia. LOL.

Post: #113

If you are going to hit the Baltics for the local women then skip the major cities like Latvia and Tallinn. If you don't then you'll just be part of the pack of western guys trying to get their flag.

Post: #114

Quote:If you plan a mini-retirement in Russia or EE next year let me know. Since joining the forum the mistakes I made in Tallinn have been made obvious, and all are easily correctable. IME, that was the hardest place to swoop, but once mastered, the rest of the world will become easier. Tallinn was a great crossroads between Helsinki and St. Petersburg, with a lot of girls coming through, even in the dead of winter. I'm still planning a long hiatus starting as early as December, and could put Russia or EE down for 3 months starting next spring.

Very true. That's exactly how I feel here in Odessa. If you can make it here with the highest quality chicks, you can make it anywhere. I'm probably going to get my flag tomorrow night (picked a girl up last night, had her over tonight, is coming back to stay the night tomorrow night). But she's not one of the highest quality girls here. She's cute, but not some of the model material you see walking around quite a bit.

But yeah, my tentative plan is to do St. Petersburg for 3-6 month next spring/summer. Will let you know.

Quote:Btw, I don't think a rowdy stag party would last the night in Russia. LOL.

Yeah, you're probably right. They couldn't handle it.

Post: #115

(06-25-2011 10:59 AM)MiXX Wrote:  

(06-25-2011 02:30 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  Dude, Latvian chicks hardly avoid foreigners. They hardly avoid any men. You are talking about a country that probably has on average more 8's than any other country in the world, while at the same time has a major shortage of men. I dont know what gave you this impression?

Ummm.. This thread right here:


/thread-5143.html


Gmanifesto even said he is not packing his bags anytime soon to return there, and he is one of the top players of the forum!

So what's the deal?



Mixx

Bro, I dont believe you can judge an entire nationality of women based on meeting only one or two and I dont believe that one persons experience will always reflect the majorities either. George in this thread is an example of that. I have had different experiences in the same country when I have been more than once. You need a bit of luck if you only have a short time somewhere.

There could be a ton of reasons why he struggled when he was there. Its not a reflection on G, it may have been a shitty trip. I struggled my ass off the first time I went to Rio. This is meant to be one of the easiest places in the world to get laid, and here I was busting my chops off the first month. Last time I went I came right quickly, but the first time? I was walking around Copa wondering where all these hot women were hiding (initial impressions of the women were poor and I was disappointed) and then struggling to close when I found where they were hanging. First thing I thought was that everyone was banging whores and were just saying they picked up. I needed to make adjustments, it was not that Rio was the problem, it was me. One of the biggest problems was that I was acting borderline homosexual and I was taking so long to escalate. Once I realised I needed to go caveman it was a complete turn around. Even with that, language was a problem for me. No Spanish or Portuguese!!!

The consensus on this forum is that its hard to get laid in Argentina. I have been on two rugby tours there with my club and it was debauchery both times. I was there 8 months ago and I spent more time jerking off in my hotel room than I did getting laid. I was there on business and on my own. Different reason for travel, different conditions...NOTHING

Its not just the Italian hordes that have invaded, its the whole of Europe now. Which means you need to make adjustments and plan your trips more efficiently if you only have a short time there. You guys should have seen what Slovenia was like in the late 90's compared to now. This is going to continue in EE unless there is a major economic crisis again.

If its easier EE pussy you want, then you need to look at places like Belarus (shithole) Moldova (shithole) and to a lesser extent Slovenia (not much longer). There you are more exotic. However, going to these places means you lose the EASE of travel. Places like Latvia and Estonia were not easy to travel to 10 years ago, now you have a choice of budget airlines and easy train access. They are also crap places to go to too.

My best suggestion to everyone is that if you dont speak conversational Russian (which is still widely spoken across EE but is dying a bit now) then you need to go online and set bitches up before you go. Day game at the bus stop is a waste boys, so many dont speak English that you are wasting your time and its going to frustrate you.

Are you going there to practice PUA routines or are you going there to eat their food, drink their booze and fuck their women?

Here, one example for you chaps

http://www.mamba.ru/search.phtml?t=&sz=s...&wp=1&wr=1

Thats a search for women between 18-28 in Kiev only.

Over 17 000 profiles. SEVENTEEN THOUSAND.

Please have a look at the average quality and compare that to the shit you see back home. Registering on that site allows you to filter your searches and find the ones that speak English or Spanish

Here, over 13 000 women between 18-28 in Minsk, Belarus

http://www.mamba.ru/search.phtml?t=&sz=s...&wp=1&wr=1

Again, look at the average quality that hangs out on a frikken dating site

(George, what were you smoking bro?)

Dont work hard guys, work smart. I have no doubt there is a huge personal bias on my part with EE and Russia too, so you need to bare that in mind.

You land hotter women in EE, you dont land easier women. If 7's and 8's are no problem for you at home, then 8's are like 6's in EE and 9's are going to be regular for you too. The sheer quantity works in your favour.

Post: #116

I am not judging anyone, and I already went to Slovenia (see my trip report in the archives). I am just gathering information.....and, I appreciate yours too.


Mixx

Post: #117

Mixx - as WE know every person's experience will be different in every country. G stated that black guys should visit Latvia b/c he saw "first-hand" dark skin guys from the UK getting attention from local girls in Riga. If I were recall he did say the place is expensive, it might be more cost effective to visit other places closer to home with the same talent. (i.e - Montreal)

I would say the Baltics is one of those must visit places, the trouble is you do not want to partying with Brits/Aussies etc.

Post: #118

(06-25-2011 02:30 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  Understand that most EE women are not like western women. Western women are far more liberal and they are easy to fuck. EE women are no saints, but most are a little more conservative.

True. Generally you need to build more comfort comparing to a Western chick. A lot of times I hear complains that EE/Russian/Ukrainian chicks are "cold and distant". They are not, it is just takes more time for them to open up. In EE and Russian culture it is unusual for the people to have conversations with complete strangers, so for most of them it would feel socially awkward first. It is not like in US, when you can walk into a store and talk to a complete stranger for thirty minutes, this doesn't happen in Russia. There are some interesting exceptions - for example it is socially acceptable to start talking to strangers if you're staying in line, but not on a bus stop. So when you start talking, give it 5-15 minutes before starting looking for the feedback.

Now the feedback. If you're used to American girls, expect much weaker feedback. To give you an idea, one MAJOR issue I have to deal every time I talk to Western chick is that she gives me a feedback which I'd rate as "extremely enthusiastic". This is cultural thing as well; a Western chick may comment something like "wow, amazing" or "you must have been scared" during my story. In Russian culture it is considered interrupting someone's talk, and it is rude. Look at her facial expression, at the beginning it will be your only source of feedback.

Be aware that if you are foreigner, you'll be held to higher standards comparing to locals. For example, you'll be tested that you're not just looking for a whore, while a local would not; she knows the local wouldn't think she is a whore, but with you she is not sure (and you can thank hordes of drunk Brits for that). And for them it is a HUGE thing.

Ok, ONS. When I said there is no ONS culture in EE, I did not mean it doesn't happen at all. However someone interpreted it just like that, so probably some explanation would be necessary. Obviously it does happen. What I meant was that very few, if any, girls go out with a goal to get laid tonight. Here in US you can hear from a chick something like that "I gonna go to a bar tonight, find a man and get a good fuck". This is something you'll never hear from EE chick. This is important. Not just because it affects her mental image, but it also affects other things, from her logistics (a girl who went out with intention to get laid doesn't have a meeting at 7:00 next morning, she doesn't have to be home at midnight to let the babysitter go and so on) to her willingness and ability to continue the interaction. Those are factors which will make it much harder for you to get ONS.

Quote:2 - If you are in a capital, dont tell them you are only on a holiday. EE has been inundated with sex tourists and there is a stigma associated with it. You are on business, looking for work, etc. Something that may be permanent.

And be congruent with what you've said. I was amazed how much bullshit you can dump on Western chicks, and they won't question a single word of it as long as it is funny and they're entertained. This is not the case there. During the first conversation EE chick will test you on everything you said which she's familiar with. It will sound innocent - for example, if you say you've been to Moscow she may ask which airport you flew in, and how you got to the city. They use it to check whether you're trustworthy, or you're just another sleazy weekend tourist making up bullshit in hope to get laid. So don't make up travel stories, especially about European countries - you'll be surprised how much some of them travel.

Quote:3 - Mind your manners. Cocky funny routines and alpha posturing will kill you.

And permanently. I've read DeAngelo's book, and I cannot use it - I can't persuade my brain that this is something actually funny. I don't believe someone would actually laugh on it instead of looking at me as a moron - which is what I'd do. Not only her English would likely be not good enough to understand your doublespeak, but "funny" depends heavily on culture, and what is considered funny here in US, may actually be offensive in EE. Fart jokes is one of such examples.

Quote:They walk a lot so they stay in shape and I think this plays a part in it, not to mention how they dress.

And they walk a lot in high heels, which shapes the leg muscles in a very nice way.

Quote:Another thing worth mentioning. Age means little in EE and Russia. You could be in your mid forties and women in their early 20's are still up for it. In fact, age works in your favour.

A small note: age means little as long as the girl is younger than you. If you're into cougars, this doesn't really work there. It is acceptable to be with a girl 25 years younger than you, but it looks ridiculous if you're with a girl who is visibly older than you.

And don't forget about smoking. Unfortunately a lot of EE girls smoke, which makes kissing kinda awkard.

Post: #119

(06-28-2011 04:28 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  Now the feedback. If you're used to American girls, expect much weaker feedback. To give you an idea, one MAJOR issue I have to deal every time I talk to Western chick is that she gives me a feedback which I'd rate as "extremely enthusiastic". This is cultural thing as well; a Western chick may comment something like "wow, amazing" or "you must have been scared" during my story. In Russian culture it is considered interrupting someone's talk, and it is rude. Look at her facial expression, at the beginning it will be your only source of feedback.

Well said. I saw this in Serbia. Being used to way Western girls give feedback, this caused me much confusion. This is something I really dont like about EE girls. Moral: if in doubt, go caveman.

(06-28-2011 04:28 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  Be aware that if you are foreigner, you'll be held to higher standards comparing to locals. For example, you'll be tested that you're not just looking for a whore, while a local would not; she knows the local wouldn't think she is a whore, but with you she is not sure (and you can thank hordes of drunk Brits for that). And for them it is a HUGE thing.

I also saw this. A girl I was dating later admitted to me that she fucked her ex on their first date, but with me, she made me wait because I was a foreigner.

Post: #120

Big +1 from me for oldnemesis' post. Been out here since April and everything I've experienced is right in line with what he says.

My experience has been that there is a slight difference between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine seems to be a bit more traditional and social circle oriented, but people are very friendly. Whereas Russian women are a bit more independent and more open to ONS, but they also seem "colder" off the bat.

Post: #121

(06-28-2011 06:49 AM)Entropy4 Wrote:  Big +1 from me for oldnemesis' post. Been out here since April and everything I've experienced is right in line with what he says.

My experience has been that there is a slight difference between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine seems to be a bit more traditional and social circle oriented, but people are very friendly. Whereas Russian women are a bit more independent and more open to ONS, but they also seem "colder" off the bat.

Moscow, and to a lesser extent St Petersburg, are world cities. Moscow is a major hub and the result of that is a more cosmopolitan city. Go to the smaller cities or even smaller towns and you will find a similar outlook, although you would be a little more exotic there. The further east you go, the easier it gets, if you can speak Russian of course.

Russian and EE women dont have time for bullshit guys. Where you have to treat a woman like a child in the west and keep her entertained, that is not the case with EE and Russian women at all. They are women, not spoiled little girls.

I dont see this as a bad thing, and despite the fact that they are better looking on average, they are far better company too once you get a little more used to their ways too.

Post: #122

[/quote]

And don't forget about smoking. Unfortunately a lot of EE girls smoke, which makes kissing kinda awkard.
[/quote]

No, that is fortunate, for me at least. I long ago lost count how many women I've taken home that I met from smoking (if a girl smokes, it is often a good tell how uninhibited she is, I find). It's sad that, in just the last few years, the number of smokers outside a bar has decreased massively (here in NYC). Generational divide.

Post: #123

And don't forget about smoking. Unfortunately a lot of EE girls smoke, which makes kissing kinda awkard.
[/quote]

No, that is fortunate, for me at least. I long ago lost count how many women I've taken home that I met from smoking (if a girl smokes, it is often a good tell how uninhibited she is, I find). It's sad that, in just the last few years, the number of smokers outside a bar has decreased massively (here in NYC). Generational divide.
[/quote]

Godsend for me as well.

"in just the last few years, the number of smokers outside a bar has decreased massively (here in NYC)"

It is even worse in Southern California, although still dealable.

I have decided that it is not worth fighting the smoking thing, in CA, the place can go to hell as far as I am concerned and turn into the police state it has always wanted to be.

I am just going to move on to greener (smokier) pastures.

EE is one of those pastures.

Post: #124

"Russian and EE women dont have time for bullshit guys. Where you have to treat a woman like a child in the west and keep her entertained, that is not the case with EE and Russian women at all. They are women, not spoiled little girls."

Or they're just straight up bitches. LOL. Nah, they're nice once you crack them sometimes. But, some of them are NOT nice once you crack them. Same as girls anywhere in my opinion. Judging by those I've encountered.

Post: #125

(06-28-2011 06:43 AM)The Duke Wrote:  Well said. I saw this in Serbia. Being used to way Western girls give feedback, this caused me much confusion. This is something I really dont like about EE girls.

You will eventually get used to it, but this doesn't happen overnight. It took me two years to adjust to the way Western girls give feedback, and I still have to remind myself from time to time.
For you it might help if you imagine you're talking to someone who cannot speak. She does express herself - she just does it in a way not to interrupt you verbally, and "oh that's so cool!" is considered interruption.
Remember, Russian culture teaches the people to only open your mouth if you're gonna say something useful. And "oh that's cool" is not considered useful. Neither are Western-style "bar talks".

(06-28-2011 07:38 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  Moscow, and to a lesser extent St Petersburg, are world cities. Moscow is a major hub and the result of that is a more cosmopolitan city.

There is also much more money than in most European cities, a lot of very rich people, and a lot of foreigners. Moscow versus the rest of Russia is like NYC vs Alabama.

Quote:Russian and EE women dont have time for bullshit guys. Where you have to treat a woman like a child in the west and keep her entertained, that is not the case with EE and Russian women at all.

That's a good point. Basically I now treat Western chicks the same way I treat my four year old - particularly, not considering seriously anything they said - from insults to tests, not disagreeing with their requests, demands and plans but just ignoring them, and not arguing with them logically as they lack mental capability to do so. Now if I ever tried it on a Russian woman, she'd be insulted. But with Western chicks it works very well.