Post: #1

According to the Homeland Security Secretary.

“to offer the opportunity to those who want to be citizens, who’ve earned the right to be citizens, who are present in this country--many of whom came here as children--to have the opportunity that we all have to try to become American citizens.”

So, you have the right to citizenship by presence?

Definitely in favor of getting rid of citizenship by birth.

Post: #2

(01-28-2014 12:08 PM)svenski7 Wrote:  According to the Homeland Security Secretary.

“to offer the opportunity to those who want to be citizens, who’ve earned the right to be citizens, who are present in this country--many of whom came here as children--to have the opportunity that we all have to try to become American citizens.”

So, you have the right to citizenship by presence?

Definitely in favor of getting rid of citizenship by birth.

That is so crazy....the right to say because they've been here 'long enough' I personally think they should be given amnesty if they can get onto a legitimate visa like a temp agriculture worker and then leave when its up.

Either that or put down some sort of blanket warning like expunging the fact that they have unlawful presence in the US if they leave by 2017. That way they have the opportunity to enter legally and do it right.

Disagree on getting rid of citizenship by birth...How do you legitimize a child's presence from two american citizen's parent then? Where would you deport the children to as they have no country of origin?

I do want to be clear about visa's, naturalization and sponsorship to the US though. Parents do not have a right to stay in the US if they have a child here. Their child does have birthright citizenship but that child cannot petition their parents to stay until they are 18 or 21 (can't recall) and even then the petition won't be allowed if the parents have entered the US unlawfully (ie. not a documented border crossing). I think many people, including those who came here illegally do not understand that.

Post: #3

Personally I could care less about illegals since they're mainly taking lawn mowing jobs, janitors, porta-potty cleaners(yes this is a job), or working at fast food places. We need a drudge class so why not let the illegals take the jobs that we really do not want to do. Let them have their citizenship and lower class jobs. If that's what they want let them have it.

Post: #4

Illegal immigration is just a scape goat to avert attention from real problems like Military spending and the 1% holding the wealth. There is enough money for everyone in the US but the ones in power throw us scraps and then blame Mexicans!

Post: #5

(01-28-2014 01:25 PM)Wayout Wrote:  Illegal immigration is just a scape goat to avert attention from real problems like Military spending and the 1% holding the wealth. There is enough money for everyone in the US but the ones in power throw us scraps and then blame Mexicans!

It must suck living life as a victim. Anyone who can't make money in the US should be thankful for scraps because they are one lazy, dumb mafo.

Post: #6

^



You're definitely worse than me! Don't get banned and I 100% agree.

Post: #7

(01-28-2014 01:16 PM)hwuzhere Wrote:  Personally I could care less about illegals since they're mainly taking lawn mowing jobs, janitors, porta-potty cleaners(yes this is a job), or working at fast food places. We need a drudge class so why not let the illegals take the jobs that we really do not want to do. Let them have their citizenship and lower class jobs. If that's what they want let them have it.

You gonna lose your drudge class when they become citizenship and have basic rights and a minimum wage.

Post: #8

(01-28-2014 01:34 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  You're definitely worse than me! Don't get banned and I 100% agree.

heh It was just a generic comment and not directed at anyone specifically. I just never understood the victim mindset. To allow others to have control over you is mind blowing.

Post: #9

I'm cool with illegals doing stuff that I wouldn't want to do. The only thing I have a problem with is them choosing to not assimilate into our culture, instead bringing their country here. If you choose to come to America, you're choosing to be an American.

Post: #10

(01-28-2014 01:41 PM)dads Wrote:  I'm cool with illegals doing stuff that I wouldn't want to do. The only thing I have a problem with is them choosing to not assimilate into our culture, instead bringing their country here. If you choose to come to America, you're choosing to be an American.

What is American? I would rather enjoy the different cultures. Who the hell wants the see and eat the same thing in every state.

Post: #11

I have relatives that have waited their whole lives to move to the US but can't due to immigration rules. Some have, and have done it the right way, the fact that someone can just sneak over the border and then become a US citizen is just a slap in the face to those who have worked to do it correctly.

We also do not need more working class, low education, low skilled people in the US. If we were going to immigrate more people, they should be high technology, business savvy persons. People with actual skills that will advance this country, not a service class of people who were already on the bottom of the barrel in their own 3rd world country.

Post: #12

Post: #13

(01-28-2014 01:42 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(01-28-2014 01:41 PM)dads Wrote:  I'm cool with illegals doing stuff that I wouldn't want to do. The only thing I have a problem with is them choosing to not assimilate into our culture, instead bringing their country here. If you choose to come to America, you're choosing to be an American.

What is American?

LIKE ME

Post: #14

delete

Post: #15

@wwt I think the most important point you made was about a month ago.

If the infrastructure is the reason why people get rich, why don't they use the same infrastructure to get rich? If they can't use it to get rich then why do people deserve to take credit for someone who does it successfully.

The only downside to that comment is that yes people born rich have more access to infrastructure and information but at the end of the day we all have access to a shit ton of information. Libraries are free, information is free. So if we are actually smart shouldn't we use that information to solve a problem and subsequently... Become rich?

The USA has problems but it's one of the rare places where one can go from the gutter to the top of the pile and that is a rare thing across the globe.

I could care less about an illegal immigrant coming in and picking food/cleaning to make ends meet, look around pretty much no American would take that job anyway so why bitch about it.

Post: #16

(01-28-2014 01:43 PM)Drazen Wrote:  I have relatives that have waited their whole lives to move to the US but can't due to immigration rules. Some have, and have done it the right way, the fact that someone can just sneak over the border and then become a US citizen is just a slap in the face to those who have worked to do it correctly.

^This.

I've always thought that immigration reform was most disrespectful to blacks -- as in those that came over on the slave ships. They fight for over two hundred years to get their civil rights. All of these hard-fought rights and responsibilities are now being handed out to whomever can "make it here." Kinda waters down the sacrifice made be people like Booker T. Washington and MLK.

It would be interesting to hear what RVF brothas think about that.

Post: #17

I say tighten the borders big time (not sure exactly how, but I know there are ways) and then legalize everyone currently here. Youre not gonna kick 20 million people out of the country and this way they would have to start paying into the system . Illegal immigrants are typically hard working with a strong sense of family and community, at least the first generation ones.

Post: #18

(01-28-2014 01:45 PM)dads Wrote:  Also, my entire family immigrated legally from Africa (Sierra Leone). My aunt waited almost three years to get her green card, and she couldn't even bring her son over here until pretty recently.

Same here, though not Sierra Leone. Its not like its impossible to become a citizen, its just a hassle.

If they announce "as of Jan 15 2014 everyone here illegally is granted amnesty and citizenship" whats to stop all of the snowbird canadians in Florida and Arizona from saying "sign me up!" and just not going home, or the family visiting disney world from not just staying an extra week and saying the pledge.

but again, there is amnesty (erasing a record of unlawful presence) and citizenship. I'm in favor of amnesty for illegals, which essentially just restarts the deportation clock, it gives them a chance to become citizens the right way instead of the administrative headache of deporting them all.

If after amnesty they can't get married, find a visa worthy job, apply for naturalization, or go out an earn a criminal record then that puts them back on the deportation clock like anyone else who has overstayed or violated a visa.

Post: #19

I don't understand why people thinking about this in economic terms. The issue should not be whether illegal immigrants are a net economic benefit or cost. The issue is whether or not modern nations have sovereignty over their borders. If a country cannot dictate who its citizens are, then is it really even a country?

Imagine you joined a private country club ten years ago. You have access to nice facilities, golf courses, pools, restaurants, etc... The club is exclusive and does not allow more than a limited amount of new members to join every year. But then suddenly the rules change and anyone is allowed to join. The club is quickly swamped with hundreds of new members, most of whom do not respect the traditions of the club. Within a few years, the club is unrecognizable from what it used to be. This is basically what is happening to Western countries at the moment.

This matters because countries are not just arbitrary pieces of land. A country is a people and its traditions. If you replaced every Japanese person in Japan with Irishmen or Ugandans, then you don't have "Japan" as we know it anymore. That Japan is gone. You have something else entirely. The same is true for every country.

There's simply no reason to support large scale immigration if you have any interest in preserving the culture and traditions of your country.

Post: #20

(01-28-2014 12:08 PM)svenski7 Wrote:  [url=http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/penny-starr/homeland-

Definitely in favor of getting rid of citizenship by birth.

Im an American citizen by birth, both my parents were illegal immigrants. What will that make of me then since I was born and raised in America?

Post: #21

(01-28-2014 01:45 PM)dads Wrote:  Also, my entire family immigrated legally from Africa (Sierra Leone). My aunt waited almost three years to get her green card, and she couldn't even bring her son over here until pretty recently.

My illegal immigrant parents have been living here in America for over 25 years, still illegally. Theyve been in America far longer than many American high school students. My dad has lived in Chicago far longer than his life in Mexico.

Post: #22

(01-28-2014 02:14 PM)scorpion Wrote:  ...The issue is whether or not modern nations have sovereignty over their borders. If a country cannot dictate who its citizens are, then is it really even a country?

Imagine you joined a private country club ten years ago. You have access to nice facilities, golf courses, pools, restaurants, etc... The club is exclusive and does not allow more than a limited amount of new members to join every year. But then suddenly the rules change and anyone is allowed to join. The club is quickly swamped with hundreds of new members, most of whom do not respect the traditions of the club. Within a few years, the club is unrecognizable from what it used to be. This is basically what is happening to Western countries at the moment.

This matters because countries are not just arbitrary pieces of land. A country is a people and its traditions. If you replaced every Japanese person in Japan with Irishmen or Ugandans, then you don't have "Japan" as we know it anymore. That Japan is gone. You have something else entirely. The same is true for every country.

There's simply no reason to support large scale immigration if you have any interest in preserving the culture and traditions of your country.

I am very sympathetic to this view. But I think we--or at least certain classes of us--are complicit in the current situation, with 20 million or whatever illegals here, many for a long time with families and whatnot. Companies, farmers, etc. wanted cheap labor, so we never effectively cracked down. To suddenly decide to fix the situation on the backs of mostly a bunch of hardworking ordinary people--at huge human cost--would be inhumane.

We helped create the situation. Given that, I think the principle of sovereignty is not worth the pain of mass deportations. Let's enact a reasonable solution for those already here, and fix the problem going forward.

Post: #23

(01-28-2014 02:26 PM)MidWest Wrote:  Im an American citizen by birth, both my parents were illegal immigrants. What will that make of me then since I was born and raised in America?

The same as me, an American citizen. It wouldn't be retroactive.

It would eliminate the incentive to drop an anchor baby on this side of the border.

Everyone should be able to be able to pass a basic civics test: white, black, brown, red or yellow.

Don't worry, a bunch of pasty white people are going to get disqualified, too.

Post: #24

(01-28-2014 02:42 PM)svenski7 Wrote:  

(01-28-2014 02:26 PM)MidWest Wrote:  Im an American citizen by birth, both my parents were illegal immigrants. What will that make of me then since I was born and raised in America?

The same as me, an American citizen. It wouldn't be retroactive.

It would eliminate the incentive to drop an anchor baby on this side of the border.

Everyone should be able to be able to pass a basic civics test: white, black, brown, red or yellow.

Don't worry, a bunch of pasty white people are going to get disqualified, too.

Since this would require an amendment to the constitution, I don't expect it happening. Anyone who thinks this would happen, well...I have ocean front property to sell you in Utah.

If anything, amnesty will not be the only thing considered by congress.

The current immigration bills being discussed in congress would GREATLY increase legal immigration, and that is what they are really after.

Post: #25

I'm not in favour of cries to "deport 'em all" because the US is dependent on this source of labour.

However, I strongly disapprove of efforts to legitimize their border hopping antics, as it is indeed a slap in the face to those who have worked hard to legitimately immigrate and encourages future undocumented border hopping.