Post: #1

I know you can't eliminate flaking entirely, but I still lose what seems to be solid prospects before the bang. My current method to minimizing this problem is getting her to show commitment/investment into the interaction. Logically the more she invests (e.g. displays of affection, asking a lot of questions, agreeing to instant dates), the more likely she will come out, but I'm continually surprised on how sometimes the girls who I do eventually get out showed much less investment than the ones who flaked.

Also, I have found that monstrously high value doesn't necessarily reduce flakes. It is an important step of the attraction-building process, for sure, but she can be a lowly student and you a superstar and she may still flake. In fact, I was flaked on just as much in Romania when the girl knew of me through the television.

I have also tried the instant text message model recommended by WestCoast and Giovanny, and I do like it, but I can't say it reduces flakes than if you wait 2 days to initiate first contact. My results from these two methods seem to be identical.

Or maybe the best thing to do is just chalk up flakes to the game not consciously try to defeat it. Maybe it's fruitful to fight, sort of like trying to defeat terrorism.

Post: #2

"Flakes" as they are called these days are unavoidable and a cost of The Game.

However, I think you can reduce them by:

1. When you first meet a girl, pitch them on a date. Ie Sushi at some dope spot where you have the #1 chef on lock.

2. Establish some commonality Ie You both like Sushi.

3. When you first meet a girl, have a night in mind that you will take her out. Ask probing questions to figure out what type of girl she is. Ie a bartender girl that works on Friday? Don't pitch her on Friday night. A girl with a 9-5? Thursday or Tuesday nights are a good pitch. Etc. Know Thy Enemy.

4. Come hard from the jump. You want this girl to think you are the most interesting cat on earth and there is no way she is going to miss going out with you or miss your:

5. Call. I know guys are in love with texting. If you are setting up dates with texting, she is not flaking on you. You can't complain. You are coming with weak game. Don't get mad. I know The Truth hurts. It is what it is.

Bottom line, flaking is minimized by your work up front.

I get flaked on all the time. However, I know when I have hooks deep. On those my flakes are low.

Custom Suits, Locking Places Down, Smoking and Huge Bankrolls never hurt anyone either.

When was the last time a guy posted a "problem" thread on here that started with: "So, I walked into a place I have on Lock Down, with a Custom Suit and Big Bankroll and a lit cigarette in my mouth and..."?

Yeah.

Never.

Post: #3

To finish my thoughts on the matter, you have to have the right attitude about flaking.

Which is? Not giving a f*ck if she flakes or not.

I am going out anyway, and if this girl wants to come for the ride, great. If not, that's great too.

She is a moron to not go out with me. It's her loss. You have to really believe that. If you don't really believe that? Fake it till you make it.

If you live in the right place and have your act together, there are girls on every block. One doesn't want you? You will see 10 girls equally as hot in the next half hour.

As you reach closer and closer to the pinnacle of Game, flaking doesn't matter. It is a good thing. You are weeding girls out.

Your biggest problems start becoming scheduling and keeping girls in line.

And keeping enough free time to drink fresh blood.

Good problems to have.

Post: #4

1. I front load interesting stories (narrative hook), but don't get to the climax. Girls like a good drama, and will want to see it through to the conclusion.

2. Deny the kiss close.* As soon as a girl knows you are dtf, you put the power in her hands.

3. Curve ball texts- I throw these out randoms while the girls are at work. Something completely random and funny. The response is almost instant. It brightens their day and maintains an edgy to the mystery. Don't overdo it, and not in a row.

4. Epic sex. Blowing their mind will get them back again and again.

My flake rate is extremely low, and kept girls I haven't even met from online strung along for 3 months after I got injured. I had phone conversation about once a week.





*Don't do this in LatAm.

Post: #5

Are you facing cultural issues?

WIA

Post: #6

Like TheG said, I believe that first interaction or approach is the crucial one. Depending on how deep your hook went or how much an imprint you left on her memory really determines and sets the stage for the bang, or atleast if she will flake or not but of course you must also consider other factors like the meetup and escalation. Atleast from my experiences I believe the first interaction is the most important one and it doesnt really matter if you text her the next day or next week, if you left your impression its a pretty solid prospect atleast from what I have seen.

Post: #7

Quote:Are you facing cultural issues?

No, just sharpening the blade.

Post: #8

What's your definition of flaking?

I get a fair number of girls who give me a number and never respond or respond a few times but don't ever agree to a specific date and time. I chalk these chicks up to game.

However in the past year I have not had a single girl not show up after we agreed upon a specific time and location (the last time it happened was November 2012). I attribute this to never altering my schedule to accommodate a girl. I have shit going on 7 nights a week. It takes some resolve but I have not been flexible at all with scheduling. They either fit into my schedule or they don't. This means there are situations where a prospect seems willing to meet but nothing happens because our schedules never lined up but I'm guessing those are the girls who would have been most likely to flake on me.

Post: #9

Flaking as in... a girl gives you her number but it doesn't lead to a date. I guess technically that's not flaking.

Post: #10

(12-08-2013 05:49 PM)Roosh Wrote:  Flaking as in... a girl gives you her number but it doesn't lead to a date. I guess technically that's not flaking.

If I feel the interaction didn't go too well, I won't ask for her number. No reason in inflating her ego, or waste time texting for a dead end. This is why I strive for girls to approach me, as that cuts out a lot of potential flaking. Or frame it to where she ask for my #.

The Pua crowd teaches to go to hard and fast for the #, or a kiss close. The interaction itself the most important. Jay Leno said it best- "keep the pot warm".

Post: #11

I had a streak where girls would text me 30 min before a date and say "something came up / couldn't make it."

Haven't experienced as much recently by 1) not scheduling dates more than two or three days in advance, and 2) texting the day of the date something to the effect of "cya tonight at (time)."

Post: #12

Let me quote a post I made in an Argentina thread. While there are many factors going on when a girl flakes, there aren't billions of factors, and surely it can be managed on some level. I found out that flakes in Mediterranean countries were due to a rarely-mentioned "friends effect" that I sweated blood to buffer. Another big one was ambiguity of intent, where intent is subcommunicated but ambiguous enough that the girl can cheat herself into it if she suffers from any slut-shame. The same deal with attraction + connection applies, and I truly believe you should not deem a set successful unless the girl goes home thinking "Wow, what an amazing guy." But, given the quality of the skill on here, I already assume you can do this, so you must now deal with the stuff that goes on around that.

Also, it is understandable you wait two days to make first contact in America, but I would not do this elsewhere. I know it is a pillar of your technique, but I think this a point you should think through thoughrouly. When a girl is most likely to come out is when she is feeling strong emotions. I have a rule where I MUST get a girl out before 3-4 days of meeting her, after that the chances of a flake increase dramatically. I think this is something that is FAR more important that any hypothetical shread of neediness that "could" be contemplated. I don't think the girl interprets a quick first-contact as needy unless there was no connection. (this is usually the case in America where the whole interaction is supported just by attraction, because connection is so hard to force with these girls).

This has to do with Argentina, but surely it is responsible for flakes elsewhere:

(12-08-2013 06:22 PM)Steve Derekson Wrote:  It has nothing to do with your texting. There is a major issue in Mediterranean-minded nations where people move in packs. It is the collectivism that is hurting you.

My experiment at first was this: Do half-hour sets and focus on connection+attraction and then do 5-minute sets focusing only on attraction. My first numbers would respond to a few texts and then flake. My second numbers would never respond and I suspect they were false numbers.

If a woman from this culture gives you a real number, something she would never do with a local guy that hits on her for a couple minutes, she likes you and wants to go out with you, IN THAT MOMENT.

Then, she goes to her friends, and in true "mother-hen" fashion, the friends will make the decision for her. The women in these countries have zero individuality, if you look closely they all dress the same, they all do the same things, and think the same. Therefore, if you build a reputation in your social circle, it is very EASY to manipulate these girls into sleeping with you, but at the same time it is an enormous barrier to cold-approach.

I have developed a buffer against this, and it works very well. It consists of two parts:

1. The money trap: Convince her, plausibly, that you have money even if lying is needed. Also, construct a profession where your profile, when presented to her social circle, is that of a serious respectable man. My back story is: After my studies, I travelled for a few years and then I had some friends here that helped me become a university professor. If she asks how I travelled I mention my parents helped me. First, this shows the girl I have cash (incentive to break away from social circle). Second, a professor is a serious man, and will break the social circle's idea of the "niñato" that flirts on the streets. The friends may try to attack the low wage of the professor, but she has it backed up by your "travels" and by the "friends" that help you ascend to a professorship in her country.

2. The envy trap: This is one that took me long to develop, but boy is it effective. Essentially, it is a form of qualification where the girl must be able to directly relate your standards to her experience of the social circle. You are using the fact that all women hate each other to your benefit. The routine goes a bit like this:

- I've noticed that in this country there is a huge collectivism, everybody thinks the same way, everybody does the same things, it is like a nation of robots? You're not a robot are you? [she qualifies herself]. But, I'm sure you must let your friends make a lot of decisions for you, like whenever you have to make a decision you go to your friends?

- You know, another thing I noticed is that it is a really envious country. There is a lot of backstabbing here. The other day I was hanging out with some friends, and one of the girls sees a guy come in, and she points out how attractive he is. Then, he starts paying attention to another girl in the group, and everything changed. She starts telling her some really messed up stuff: "He does this with every girl." "He might be a mass murderer"... [buffering each individual objection that might come up with a bit of comedy throughout to keep the vibe fun]. But, you know, she did it just because the other girl had what she WANTED. There is so much of that here.

Then, the girl will go to the friends, these objections will come up, and she will be referenced back to your point. She will see the objections as envy, something she is prone to anyway because women are all in competition with each other. Then, she will act on her desire (which hopefully you instilled by creating attraction + connection), and ignore the friends completely.

Once you implement these things, your flake rate goes down to the level of a hard but not-so-hard country like France, which I can deal with.

Post: #13

(12-08-2013 05:56 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  If I feel the interaction didn't go too well, I won't ask for her number. No reason in inflating her ego, or waste time texting for a dead end. This is why I strive for girls to approach me, as that cuts out a lot of potential flaking. Or frame it to where she ask for my #.

As I gain more experience I feel this more and more. I really don't give a shit about getting a number. Unless she is showing some great signs and is either touching me or looks like she wants to at least, the number is a empty accomplishment.

I always try to call the first time after I get a number. Much of the time I get voicemail, but if my Game is on high that week my vibe comes through in the one sentence voicemail and she calls or texts back immediately or soon after. If I get her to pick up or call me back the chances of not flaking are now only mine to fuck up.

Terse texting is safe. It is like playing prevent defense when you have the lead in a game rather than blitzkrieg your opponent into the ground. A good phone call is going for the knockout punch to kill a flake.

Post: #14

I've given up trying to reduce flakes

I deal with it just by numbers game-brute force

Next!

Post: #15

I believe this is a question of perspective.

If you are only talking to one girl, and she flakes, than your odds of getting a bang are zero.

If you are talking to 100s of girls, and one of them flakes, you still have great odds.. even if 20 of them flake.

So, in the same way that approaching light speed increases mass infinitely, if you increase the number of girls you are talking to, the power of flakiness gets reduced greatly.

To take it to an extreme, if you are talking to a thousand girls, and one of them flakes, the flake is almost non-existent.

Also, there is an art to keeping things open ended.

The girl can't flake if plans haven't actually been made. That's why I think it's good to tease things out to the last minute until it's like you guys "kinda sorta" happen to be in the same place at the same time (because most people are to pussy to actually make plans these days, and girls... forget about it).

Post: #16

(12-08-2013 05:35 PM)Ensam Wrote:  What's your definition of flaking?

Yeah, I guess we really need to define "flaking".

Is flaking:

1. You have a girls number and you can't convert into a date?

2. A girl commits to a date and doesn't show up/ cancels at the last moment?

Post: #17

(12-08-2013 08:02 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(12-08-2013 05:35 PM)Ensam Wrote:  What's your definition of flaking?

Yeah, I guess we really need to define "flaking".

Is flaking:

1. You have a girls number and you can't convert into a date?

2. A girl commits to a date and doesn't show up/ cancels at the last moment?

Number 2. I would say a severe flake would be if you talk to her or text with her and confirm up that you are meeting that afternoon or evening, she agrees and then does not show up or respond to calls or texts asking what's going on with her.

I could have swore I already responded to this thread but apparently it didn't post.

The best way to handle flakes is to continue to do the activity and have fun anyways with her, so it really is her loss and she is the one missing out. If you agreed to go hiking and she no shows, go hiking by yourself and have a good time. If you agreed to meet a girl at a bar for drinks and she no shows, just approach hot girls in the bar.

edit
OH, to answer the OP's question on "how to deal with flakes", one way is to schedule dates with multiple girls at the same time.

Meet girl A at bar x at 8pm but also set up a date for girl B at bar y at 830pm.

Post: #18

(12-08-2013 08:10 PM)master_thespian Wrote:  

(12-08-2013 08:02 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(12-08-2013 05:35 PM)Ensam Wrote:  What's your definition of flaking?

Yeah, I guess we really need to define "flaking".

Is flaking:

1. You have a girls number and you can't convert into a date?

2. A girl commits to a date and doesn't show up/ cancels at the last moment?

Number 2. I would say a severe flake would be if you talk to her or text with her and confirm up that you are meeting that afternoon or evening, she agrees and then does not show up or respond to calls or texts asking what's going on with her.

I could have swore I already responded to this thread but apparently it didn't post.

Ok.

Yeah, I would say that if you set the date up via text and she "flakes" then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Quote:The best way to handle flakes is to continue to do the activity and have fun anyways with her, so it really is her loss and she is the one missing out. If you agreed to go hiking and she no shows, go hiking by yourself and have a good time. If you agreed to meet a girl at a bar for drinks and she no shows, just approach hot girls in the bar.

Agreed.

I do what I am going to do and a girl can come along.

That being said, I set my moves via phone.

Flaking by definition #2 is minuscule.

Flaking by definition #1 of course happens all the time.

Post: #19

(12-08-2013 08:25 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(12-08-2013 08:10 PM)master_thespian Wrote:  

(12-08-2013 08:02 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(12-08-2013 05:35 PM)Ensam Wrote:  What's your definition of flaking?

Yeah, I guess we really need to define "flaking".

Is flaking:

1. You have a girls number and you can't convert into a date?

2. A girl commits to a date and doesn't show up/ cancels at the last moment?

Number 2. I would say a severe flake would be if you talk to her or text with her and confirm up that you are meeting that afternoon or evening, she agrees and then does not show up or respond to calls or texts asking what's going on with her.

I could have swore I already responded to this thread but apparently it didn't post.

Ok.

Yeah, I would say that if you set the date up via text and she "flakes" then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Quote:The best way to handle flakes is to continue to do the activity and have fun anyways with her, so it really is her loss and she is the one missing out. If you agreed to go hiking and she no shows, go hiking by yourself and have a good time. If you agreed to meet a girl at a bar for drinks and she no shows, just approach hot girls in the bar.

Agreed.

I do what I am going to do and a girl can come along.

That being said, I set my moves via phone.

Flaking by definition #2 is minuscule.

Flaking by definition #1 of course happens all the time.

Agreed. I think definition #2 has happened twice in my life. The first time was before cell phones. Definition #1 happens multiple times a day.

Post: #20

(12-08-2013 05:49 PM)Roosh Wrote:  Flaking as in... a girl gives you her number but it doesn't lead to a date. I guess technically that's not flaking.

An important distinction. I think of flaking as either no-showing (inexcusable) or late canceling ( canceling within say 4 hours of meeting.)

What you're describing seems more like giving you a number, but not agreeing to a date?


PREDICTIVE INFO
I've had trouble "converting" numbers to meetings too, it's the easiest thing for her to do to give you the number but meeting you takes work and has risk. Facial microepressionsms, body language, and response latency when entering numbers could be clues to what will really happen.
This is a little off the subject, but one strong indicator in my experience of future cancellations and no-shows has been speed of text responding.

People who respond very quickly , showing they are not calculating power games with response speed, seem far, far more reliable. The longer they take to text back, and the more incomplete their answers to what you're asking in text, the higher their unreliability will be.

Since you're trying to predict behavior without directly asking the person because it will tend to make you look needy, you might try taking into account some seemingly unrelated variables.
High heels, amount of jewelry, does she smoke, where you met, how long you talked. Sometimes seemingly non-relevant variables can have good predictive power.

SHAPING BEHAVIOR
Then there's the issue of shaping behavior, eliciting successive approximations of desired behavior. So maybe "jokingly" getting her to talk on the phone while you're right there in front of her may break in the neural pathways to picking up the phone later when you call. Possibly, you could even plant images in her mind. "I want to see if I got your number right" , "I want to hear what your ringer sounds like", "I'm going to hypnotize you so you must pick up the phone when I call ( deadpan) " , whatever.

"You'll be on the Marshrutka, and you'll see my number come up and (the ringing will mean that fun time you've been waiting for starts then) " , whatever you want.

Maybe the distraction while she's entering number could be a good time to send NLP signals:
"When that number shows up, you're going to have the fun you've been waiting for./your problems are over for the day", etc"

Post: #21

What Ali said.


Whatever its reasons(low attraction/connection/deluded entitlement) flaking is, essentially a brazen display of power by the female.

If you give the female way too much power before hand, chances are, she'll flake but also if you hold way too much power prior to the meeting, chances are, she'll flake (because she's intimidated/doesn't feel good about it/ just to get some power back).
Which is why having monstrously high value sometimes backfires.

Getting them to ego invest is the best thing you can do to increase the odds that they keep coming back.

Challenging them, keeping them thinking of you, firmly holding the reins of power (60-40, not 90-10), and implying that you have a rich and interesting life are other ways which have helped reduce girls flaking on me.

A few ways this can be done -

Hook them in and keep them hanging.

Throw them bits and pieces of information randomly. Sometimes giving them further information, sometimes ignoring them, sometimes just giving out bullshit excuses(Agree and amplify types).

Never letting them classify as into a certain type of guy.

Pushing her boundaries, but not going overboard yourself.
So if she's being a cock tease, escalate a bit but deny the kiss close.
If she's being genuinely shy, gently lead her up to kissing and possibly finger banging.

Dominance - One reserves overt dominance for the obnoxious females or where there are major time/space constraints (eg- going caveman). Subtle dominance is usually good enough, and can be achieved through multiple means, depending on the situation and context. Examples include refusing to call her by her name, ordering for both of you, cutting her conversation to introduce a new one(bonus points if it is an even more shallow and bullshit subject than the one she was talking about), drawing her under your wing/pulling her into you,
DHVs(knowing the bartender/maitre'd, custom suit/cufflinks/watch/generic black credit card with no name/flashy car, tattoos, scars, war stories etc)

Walking out on them - If a first meet isn't going well and we're not clicking, I pretend like I'm interested and let her yap a bit, take out my credit card, abruptly get up, walk over to the main desk, pay the bill, come back, take out my expensive pen, write my number on a paper napkin, fold it meticulously, lean in and pass it on to her across the table, relaxed but firm eye contact, make the "call me" gesture with my fingers(lips pursed), point at her, and walk out.
If nothing else, makes you feel like a boss, and the girl goes from being comfortably seated eating her desert with a guy to being all alone with nothing but a phone number. The shock value is immense.

The key is to make it seem natural (zero swag), and show no emotion. No smirking, smiling, or intense look. Nothing personal, just business.

Every single time I've used this move on a girl who had low interest, the girl has ended up calling me back and meeting again. One of them even asked me to role-play this scenario 6 months afterwards. I kid you not.

All of this involves some time and effort on your part, though, even if much of it is done via text.
Time and effort, which, one could argue, can be diverted instead to chasing down new tail.

Post: #22

(12-08-2013 08:02 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(12-08-2013 05:35 PM)Ensam Wrote:  What's your definition of flaking?

Yeah, I guess we really need to define "flaking".

Is flaking:

1. You have a girls number and you can't convert into a date?

2. A girl commits to a date and doesn't show up/ cancels at the last moment?

If we go by definition number 1 then I'm just as guilty of flaking on girls as they are on me.

Post: #23

I might not be pushing my boundaries enough, but I don't get cold numbers that often.

The one Trini chick I accosted while she was on a date with some herb, I definitely spiked her hypergamous nature, but I guess my game wasn't strong enough for her to drop everything. I also wasn't pressed either.

In general, I do the same things
- pick good targets
- value check and exchange
- kino
- investment on her part
- venue change when possible
- push the interaction as far as it can go
- text ping that night, continue a thread or random funny thoughts and occurrences once or twice
- always sign my texts, blah blah blah - WIA

I can't think of the last chick that went cold.

I probably need to level up.

WIA

Post: #24

(12-08-2013 10:40 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  I might not be pushing my boundaries enough, but I don't get cold numbers that often.

The one Trini chick I accosted while she was on a date with some herb, I definitely spiked her hypergamous nature, but I guess my game wasn't strong enough for her to drop everything. I also wasn't pressed either.

In general, I do the same things
- pick good targets
- value check and exchange
- kino
- investment on her part
- venue change when possible
- push the interaction as far as it can go
- text ping that night, continue a thread or random funny thoughts and occurrences once or twice
- always sign my texts, blah blah blah - WIA

I can't think of the last chick that went cold.

I probably need to level up.

WIA

I like the signing of texts thing. Going to try it, but do you send it after every text, even the most simple ones?

Post: #25

I just desensitize myself. Today there are far far too many factors that you can't control when dealing with women. You can go crazy thinkingsabout what you did wrong when it might be something completely random, like some old flame finding her on Facebook and going "hey I'm in town tonight...".