Post: #26

I think Mike is on the right track with his advice. That being said, I read that book years ago and at the time it didn't do too much for me.

The big break came for me when I got into eastern philosophy and then meditation. Once I stopped self-identifying with my own thoughts I was able to recognize recurrent negative thought patterns and ignore, laugh at, or stop indulging in them. So I would also throw a recommendation for reading Eckhart Tolle into the mix here.

Post: #27

(10-23-2013 02:41 PM)kbell Wrote:  What am I supposed to ask them if I don't think they have CBT training?

You can just ask them their opinion.

"How did you learn to take control of your mind?"

"How did you beat depression?"

"How do you build a solid mental/emotional foundation?"

We might not have formal CBT training but we have decades of informal CBT training and experience.

Sometimes, the guy with the life experience is more helpful than the guy who has been learning out of a textbook.

(10-23-2013 02:43 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  I think Mike is on the right track with his advice. That being said, I read that book years ago and at the time it didn't do too much for me.

There is no magic book that will solve everyone's problems. There is no magic technique that will cure depression for all. The depressed person must aggressively seek out and experiment with different methods to find the ones that work best for him.

Our depression is unique to all of us and the solution will also be unique.

Trial and error is necessary. Persistence is a must. Treat it as if it was life and death, it basically is..

Post: #28

Good posts so far.

I wouldn't say I have depression, but at least one or two days of the week I am very depressed for most of the day. I'll sit inside all day watching movies or staring at the wall. Most of the time it passes, but some of the times it doesn't and just sticks. I was barely able to get through work yesterday, pissed off and lethargic the whole time. It persisted through to this morning, I woke up anxious and depressed. I kept thinking that I'm basically working for nothing. I've been banking all my cash and only rarely buying 'stuff' I was going through all the shit I wanted to buy: new computer, new car, dope clothes, cigars, scotch etc.

Then I read this post and it was all suddenly reframed in my mind. I wasn't forcing myself to not buy nice stuff. I wasn't working for no gain other than financial. I wasn't going nowhere.

Every time I put another dollar in the bank I'm buying a bit of my own freedom. I'm a recent university graduate with no debt and I can, at any time, say fuck you to anything in my life and live anywhere in the world for a year or more.

Post: #29

A couple more things:

Sunlight really makes a big positive difference to my mood. YMMV

If you're troubled by nagging thoughts of shame or embarrassment etc., label them as 'programming' - something that was drilled into you but is not a part of you. If the -ve thought pops up, say the word programming, out loud if possible or under your breath. Keep saying it every time a negative thought arises. EVERY time. Initially you may be saying it many times a day, but eventually the frequency should decrease, down to almost nothing.

Meditation is good. I've had success with Inner Smile.

You've had some great advice from people here. Act, don't think, on it.

Post: #30

(10-23-2013 12:06 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  6) Experiment with psychoactive medicines. (mushrooms and ecstasy did a lot to help me)

Interesting...can guys who have experienced these please explain in more detail how they can help? I guess there must be some bad side effects or risks since these "medicines" are illegal in many countries.

Post: #31

kbell, a few things:

1. First, moodgym is a great site, probably the best online CBT site out there. Good job finding it, and I encourage you to go through with their program. It's fantastic.

2. Unlike other forms of "talk therapy", CBT/REBT have been proven to work by extensive and rigorous studies. If you can find a good therapist that practices some form of CBT or REBT (they are similar), go for it. Otherwise, don't waste your time.

3. I've posted about this is a number of other places, but will repeat once more here. Depression is strongly related to sleep and sleep patterns, which are in turn controlled by light. There is very solid research showing the efficacy of bright light therapy, especially (but not only) for SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder, the sort of depression you get particularly during the fall and winter and which is to some extent what you're describing). Get a light box and start using it daily -- you can find references in my other posts on this.

4. Always worth mentioning, depressives tend to be particularly bewitched by the (considerable) charms of substances like alcohol, caffeine, and other drugs, but in the long run consuming any of these to excess does you no favors. Make sure you don't take any such substances in anything but quite moderate amounts.

Post: #32

I have depression and even attempted suicide when I was in my early 20s

It sucks!

I'm getting a whole lot better now.

The best things I've found are

1) exercise religiously (45-60 min every day). I don't even take days off to recover because it fucks with me mentally.

2) St Johns Wort + 5HTP have helped me a lot, far more than any pharmaceuticals

3) rewiring you're brain is a long, slow process, but the best things that I've done is read a couple books that helped me (very slightly) to reframe everything in a more positive light.
a) Psychedelics: I've experimented a few times with shrooms and dmt, and man, they really let you feel the love in the universe if the set & setting is right and you "see" that you're alright, everything is exactly how its supposed to be.
b) meditation helps in a lot of ways that I can't put into words, you get these little epiphanies and learn equanimity.

Post: #33

Listen to the audiobook "The Strangest Secret" by Earl Nightingale.
It gives great tips on how you can easily change your mindset, it helped me a lot

Other things you can do:

-Stop masturbating if you haven't already
-Start weight lifting
-fully dedicate yourself to something
-read more

Post: #34

I had it and still get it sometimes.

Eat right
Exercise
No recreational drugs or alcohol
Game chicks
Find at least one friend
Have hobbies
Realize that out of all the sperm and all the eggs that could have met the 2 that met made you. You are unique and lucky and you should have the best life you can have

Post: #35

The 10 cognitive distortions Burns mentions in the book. This is from http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/cognitiv...tions.html

Burns mentions that these are rather important as I assume he goes into great detail about each one.

1. ALL OR NOTHING THINKING: You see things in black and white categories. If your performance falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure.
2. OVERGENERALIZATION: You see a single negative event as a never-ending pattern of defeat.
3. MENTAL FILTER: You pick out a single negative detail and dwell on it exclusively so that your vision of all reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink that discolors the entire beaker of water.
4. DISQUALIFYING THE POSITIVE: You reject positive experiences by insisting they "don't count" for some reason or other. In this way you can maintain a negative belief that is contradicted by your everyday experiences.
5. JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS: You make negative interpretations even though there are definite facts that convincingly support your conclusions.
a. Mind reading: You arbitrarily conclude that someone is reacting negatively to you, and you don't bother to check this out.
b. The Fortune Teller Error: You anticipate that things will turn out badly, and you feel convinced that your prediction is an established fact.
6. MAGNIFICATION (Catastrophizing) OR MINIMIZATION: You exaggerate the importance of things (such as your goof-up or someone else's achievement), or you inappropriately shrink things until they appear tiny (your own desirable qualities or the other fellow's imperfections). This is also called the "binocular trick".
7. EMOTIONAL REASONING: You assume that your negative emotions necessarily reflect the way things really are: "I feel it, therefore it must be true".
8. SHOULD STATEMENTS: You try to motivate yourself with should and shouldn'ts, as if you had to be whipped and punished before you could expect to do anything. "Musts" and "oughts" are also offenders. The emotional consequence is guilt. When you direct should statements towards others, you feel anger, frustration, and resentment.
9. LABELING AND MISLABELING: This is an extreme form of overgeneralization. Instead of describing your error, you attach a negative label to yourself: "I'm a loser". When someone else's behavior rubs you the wrong way, you attach a negative label to him: "He's a damn louse". Mislabeling involves describing an event with language that is highly colored and emotionally loaded.
10. PERSONALIZATION: You see yourself as the cause of some negative external event which in fact you were not primarily responsible for.

Post: #36

I would also advise checking your Vitamin D levels. The saying that the Sun cures depression is not for naught.

Post: #37

I take about 10,000 ui a day. The body makes about 30,000 ui when outside. Last time I checked about a year ago I was at 40 ng/ml. Which is low end. I think I was taking 10,000 ui as well than. I don't seem to absorb it quickly. I do have a gut problem.

Post: #38

(10-23-2013 12:09 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(10-23-2013 12:06 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  You must learn to control your mind!

That might sound a little crazy but that is exactly what you need to do!

Control your thoughts.

If you are talking about a chemical-imbalance type of depression that is impossible.

It simply doesn't work that way.

Health care practitioners who've seen thousands of patients see clearly mood is a product of the interactions of both the physical and the abstract.

Biology is real. People who say EVERYTHING is in your mind, and if you just VISUALIZE 10s and WEALTH it will simply happen are simply unrealistic.
If I'm 50 years old 5'4" and "visualize" and "believe" I'll be an NBA star, will it happen? Even most 8 year olds will know this is idiotic.

HOWEVER, CBT and changing your thoughts works as well, as well as optimism. ( Albert Ellis was the popularizer of RET leter he changed the name to REBT as he realized that actions " behavior" in the world were needed to change your mind and mood, and an ancient slave named Epictetus was probably the earliest forumulator of RET)

Seligman was the guy that later started the positive psychology academic movement, he moved away from the disease model. One good idea he has is that you can learn optimism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_psychology

And the BEST thing may be to attack the problem from two fronts: exercise and nutrition and possibly anti-depressants for the physical, and CBT or other therapy for the mental.

If you have seen many patients battle with depression and other mental illness, you would know that there are a significant amount that do much, much better with pharmaceutical anti-depressants. Yes, Big Pharma antidepressants.

You might not like the politics of that, but if you work as a professional and know what you are talking about, you realize the world is not a fair, lovely place.

I'm giong to sign up for the gym now. U Penn study showed exercise works as well as Prozac, but but exercise effects only last about 24 hours.

Trying to define the solution to something as complex as depression in a single glib sentence makes about as much sense as trying to do the same for cancer or some other massively complicated phenomenon which results form the interaction of thousands of elements.

Post: #39

I went to a psychotherapist and I questioned a lot of what he was telling me and it irritated him. Moral of the story? Never continue seeing a therapist you are smarter than.

On a serious K, it's a struggle (I have anxiety attacks rather than depression) and something I will probably face for the rest of my life. It's all tied up in things like self-esteem, childhood stuff, self-worth etc.

Post: #40

(10-26-2013 11:52 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  Biology is real. People who say EVERYTHING is in your mind, and if you just VISUALIZE 10s and WEALTH it will simply happen are simply unrealistic.
If I'm 50 years old 5'4" and "visualize" and "believe" I'll be an NBA star, will it happen? Even most 8 year olds will know this is idiotic.

HOWEVER, CBT and changing your thoughts works as well, as well as optimism. ( Albert Ellis was the popularizer of RET leter he changed the name to REBT as he realized that actions " behavior" in the world were needed to change your mind and mood, and an ancient slave named Epictetus was probably the earliest forumulator of RET)

I don't think anyone advocates unrealistic thinking like your NBA example. In other words, I agree with you and anyone who would advocate such a thing would be nuts.

As far as REBT, I'm doing a book review on an other thread and reviewing his book very closely. Ellis does acknowledge that some depression and other disturbances seem to have a biological basis, and pharms might be required.

In doing the book review, I am looking at REBT again at 30,000 feet and seeing a few overarching themes:

1. Bad things do happen to us, and it is healthy to feel negative emotions (like regret or concern) UNLESS you exaggerate how bad things are, then you get exaggerated BAD EMOTIONS (like depression or anxiety). Regret and concern do not feel as bad as depression and anxiety, you cope better, and you can shake those emotions off quicker and move on with your life faster.

2. These EXAGGERATED emotions come from EXAGGERATED and unrealistic thoughts. Instead of thinking something is unfortunate, you think this event is HORRIBLE. When you think it's HORRIBLE, you will feel HORRIBLE and have a hard time functioning. When you think the event (say losing your job) is merely a bad break rather than horrible, you think it's pretty bad, so you are motivated to find a new job and not repeat past mistakes, but your emotions are not as red-hot as when you think that it is horrible and you can function better (and feel better).

3. A lot of long-term emotional pain and anxiety come from you self-downing yourself. Or as some people put it, having low self-esteem. With REBT, you learn that "self-esteem" is a societal construct; it isn't real. You stop rating your entire self and only rate your attributes. This really frees you and gives you peace of mind. You take more healthy risks, like approaching beautiful girls, because you no longer fear that if she rejects you, you will feel bad about yourself.

Post: #41

Chapter 4 goes over the assignment you have to do every day for 10-15 minutes for about 2 months. Basically you write down 3 columns. On with automatic thoughts (self criticism), the middle the cognitive distortions and the last column is the rational responses (self defense). Right now this makes me a touch nervous for a few reasons. First is that I don't tend to remember most of my thoughts after they have passed. I don't want to carry a paper all the time and write sensitive thoughts down at weird times. I worry that I will forget what type of distortion and what the proper defense response is. Doing the tests for this type of thinking I didn't do well and tended to try to cheat. Fear of failure I assume. Will I always have to do assignments?

I probably just did the assignment in a way here. Its a bit tricky to think objectively at this point but it does feel better to do something rather than just lie in bed. The chapter I'm reading goes over the lethargy cycle and do nothingism. Perfectionism, fear of success and failure are in there is well.

Post: #42

(10-27-2013 12:34 PM)kbell Wrote:  Chapter 4 goes over the assignment you have to do every day for 10-15 minutes for about 2 months. Basically you write down 3 columns. On with automatic thoughts (self criticism), the middle the cognitive distortions and the last column is the rational responses (self defense). Right now this makes me a touch nervous for a few reasons. First is that I don't tend to remember most of my thoughts after they have passed. I don't want to carry a paper all the time and write sensitive thoughts down at weird times. I worry that I will forget what type of distortion and what the proper defense response is. Doing the tests for this type of thinking I didn't do well and tended to try to cheat. Fear of failure I assume. Will I always have to do assignments?

I probably just did the assignment in a way here. Its a bit tricky to think objectively at this point but it does feel better to do something rather than just lie in bed. The chapter I'm reading goes over the lethargy cycle and do nothingism. Perfectionism, fear of success and failure are in there is well.

kbell, you can start right here.

What are you worried about?

Suppose you forget some of your sensitive thoughts. So what? Is anyone going to punish you for it?

Quote:Right now this makes me a touch nervous for a few reasons.

What is there to be nervous about?

Quote:Will I always have to do assignments?

Why do you think of it as an "assignment"? It's just an exercise to help you organize your thoughts and see what the distortions are.

It's not a test. You can't fail.

No one is going to grade you and give you an F because you omitted some thoughts. No one is even going to read it other than yourself.

Quote:Its a bit tricky to think objectively at this point

Why do you think it's tricky. There is nothing magical about "thinking objectively", it's not some special activity requiring some strange skills.

You just need to see the simple things that are right in front of you. Just take a moment to think about them plainly and without being distracted by emotions like fear or anxiety.

The only thing that's "tricky" is just realizing that this is a thing worth doing. So you're already past the tricky part.

Again. Relax. Reading this book and doing these exercises is not a test. It's something you're doing so you can get rid of ideas and behaviors that prevent you from enjoying your life.

At the end of the day, that's the goal. Just to live a more enjoyable life.

Final piece of advice.

Do Not "Just Lie In Bed". It's the single worst thing a depressive can do. Get that light box. Entrain yourself to wake up in the morning on a regular schedule and get out of bed when you wake up.

(but don't use the crutch of coffee on an empty stomach.... terrible. Have some breakfast or just sit around).

Hope this helps.

Post: #43

"There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so." - William Shakespeare

Post: #44

(10-27-2013 12:34 PM)kbell Wrote:  Will I always have to do assignments?

You shouldn't always have to do assignments, once you get in the habit of stopping/preventing self-defeating thoughts it will be like riding a bicycle.

If you feel it's really difficult to get out of bed -- I mean all day, not just in the morning--I would recommend you get evaluated for anti-depressant medication. That's the kind of thing which puts you in the diagnostic category "severe" depression, along with hopelessness, pessimism, clouded, slow thinking.

Post: #45

(10-27-2013 02:46 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(10-27-2013 12:34 PM)kbell Wrote:  Will I always have to do assignments?

If you feel it's really difficult to get out of bed -- I mean all day, not just in the morning--I would recommend you get evaluated for anti-depressant medication. That's the kind of thing which puts you in the diagnostic category "severe" depression, along with hopelessness, pessimism, clouded, slow thinking.

Anti-depressants are very, very tricky drugs. They have severe side effects and will often do more harm than good. Psychiatrists prescribe them indiscriminately and sometimes in whimsical and destructive "cocktails" based on worthless and ill-designed studies. They produce lifelong zombies. Many cases of seemingly unexplained suicides or other craziness are in fact due to the side effects of prescription ADs.

There are far better treatment modalities for depression, such as bright light therapy which I've posted about often. And the kind of CBT kbell is doing can be extremely effective. A lot can be done by adopting certain physical disciplines; the key is getting your sleep pattern regularized.

You don't want to get on the psych "evaluation" treadmill because it's a world of hellish randomness, incompetence and venality. It is the single worst part of contemporary medicine.

Post: #46

I'm not lying in bed that much. Although I do wake up really late and tend to have trouble falling asleep. I recently installed F.lux on my computer and that seems to help with cutting on the moving around to find the right spot to doze off on. The downside with f.lux is that it changes the color so I have to remember to turn it off if I'm doing color sensitive work.

Funny enough I was looking at local CBT trainers. Most are women so not sure how well they would be. I know a lot of the guys who do it as well from seeing them around especially at my gym. I wouldn't want one that I knew really well. Also they seem to be from $80 to $200 a session. Some take my insurance some don't. But not sure how long cbt therapy last for and how often. My current therapist is usually an hour every 2-3 weeks.

I appreciate that example of rational thinking/self defense lizard of oz. Its nicer to see more examples of that. That's something that looks like it could be very helpful to train myself to think like that.

@cardguy- that quote was specifically mentioned in the book.

@knowitall- no to meds right now. Tried a lot before and I don't like the dullness zombie like state I get in. I am taking st. johns wart which help a tad, but its more my core thought process that seems wrong.

Post: #47

(10-27-2013 12:34 PM)kbell Wrote:  Chapter 4 goes over the assignment you have to do every day for 10-15 minutes for about 2 months. Basically you write down 3 columns. On with automatic thoughts (self criticism), the middle the cognitive distortions and the last column is the rational responses (self defense). Right now this makes me a touch nervous for a few reasons. First is that I don't tend to remember most of my thoughts after they have passed. I don't want to carry a paper all the time and write sensitive thoughts down at weird times. I worry that I will forget what type of distortion and what the proper defense response is. Doing the tests for this type of thinking I didn't do well and tended to try to cheat. Fear of failure I assume. Will I always have to do assignments?

You don't have to do your "disputes" perfectly to get a benefit. No you don't have to carry a pen and paper around. Perhaps jot some notes on your smartphone if you have one. Send an email to yourself or whatever. Everyone is always pecking away on their phone so no one will know what you are doing.

But absent that, and maybe even better, use your imagination when you have time and quiet to really think about things. The disputing done as part of CBT (or REBT) doesn't HAVE to be events that actually happened already. You can do disputes on future events too. Or you can revisit past events in your mind and conjure up the types of emotions you usually get. Then you can dispute them.

Another technique is to save all your disputes. Then read through them and find some of your more powerful disputes. Your "greatest hits." A couple of sentences or so each. Then carry those around with you, either on index cards in your pocket or on the notepad on your phone. Then when you are out and about and face some type of problem and don't have time to dispute right there and then, you can pull up your "greatest hits" and say "Oh, yeah when I faced something similar to this in the past I realized later I was overreacting because of blah blah."

Post: #48

(10-26-2013 12:20 PM)Teedub Wrote:  Never continue seeing a therapist you are smarter than.

This is a great point.

Find a therapist who resonates with you and who is much smarter than you in this area.

Therapists are like doctors, lawyers, politicians, teachers, plumbers, stock brokers, engineers, and electricians -- Most of them suck! Find the talented 10%. The ones that really know their stuff and how to communicate it to YOU.

Shitty therapists are a waste of time!

(10-27-2013 02:46 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  once you get in the habit of stopping/preventing self-defeating thoughts it will be like riding a bicycle.

Yes.

You must literally re-wire your brain. The brain is very malleable and moldable like clay. It will adapt into whatever patterns you create. A negative pattern will be reinforced and a positive pattern will be reinforced. Over time, these patterns get hard wired (neuron connections). That's why they can be so difficult to break and change. We must create the atmosphere, lifestyle, attitude, support system, and thought patterns in order to properly re-organize (re-wire) our brain.

Your brain is a piece of wet clay. You must form it everyday like a sculptor for a sculpture.

(10-27-2013 04:03 PM)kbell Wrote:  my core thought process

This is the key to your entire life. This is the difference between life and death.

Post: #49

(10-27-2013 04:03 PM)kbell Wrote:  Funny enough I was looking at local CBT trainers. Most are women so not sure how well they would be. I know a lot of the guys who do it as well from seeing them around especially at my gym. I wouldn't want one that I knew really well. Also they seem to be from $80 to $200 a session. Some take my insurance some don't. But not sure how long cbt therapy last for and how often. My current therapist is usually an hour every 2-3 weeks.

Here is a REBT therapist from SF who does phone therapy, so you can live anywhere. His approach is to train you to be your own therapist. I like that because ultimately your improvement is up to you. A therapist can't do the work you need to get better for you. His approach is to push you out of the nest after a handful of sessions equipped to be your own therapist.

I can't vouch for how good he might be, but I read his book which was decent. I do know he is very passionate about REBT, trained under Albert Ellis, and cured his own crippling depression using REBT.

http://www.threeminutetherapy.com/privatepractice.html

Post: #50

Have you tried GABA and 5-htp? GABA works wonders.