Post: #51

(10-12-2013 06:10 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

(10-12-2013 06:04 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  ^ Ok, I get who you are talking about: Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Where did you hear he was gay? On his wiki page it says he has a wife and kids.

Interesting you don't believe the bible but quote wiki. How do I know he is gay? Well I don't know, just a hunch I guess. Probably don't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

I like the idea of "A Military Contractor's Social Guide to Intellectuals:Why Those People Act S o Weird"

Post: #52

(10-11-2013 10:08 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  No he wasn't. He's the only thing standing between you and eternal hell.

Nah, Jesus was a Cosmic Sweetie. Like the ultimate genius at being a hippie, 1968 years before his time.

"Faith, hope and charity. But the greatest of these is charity."

Post: #53

(10-11-2013 10:42 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  The only reference to Jesus by a pre-Christian author is found in Tacitus (Annales 15.44). It's not a flattering reference. See what he says:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."


Basically, Jesus was viewed as an upstart trouble maker by the Hebrew and Roman authorities, and they moved swiftly to get rid of him before he became a bigger nuisance. But it just happened that, after his death, all the conditions were right for a mass movement to take off. Other men (especially Paul) turned him into a major prophet, and transformed the legend into a deity. But so what? This is how all religions take off....all religions need a symbol.

D00D!! this kind of fascinating background information about history would take someone hundreds of hours to find. Feel free to rant, muse and speculate at length about all this interesting stuff.

If you want to collaborate on a pop history book along the lines of "The Schizophrenic Genius Jesus" I'm down and have somewhat marginal but real academic credentials including published research, PM me! I kan write lik a real smert guy too.

Although the effect of nearly-illiterate con-man/Mormonism founder Joseph Smith on millions of otherwise intelligent Mormons is evidence to the contrary, I believe Jesus's effects on history are prima facie evidence of his genius. I also think the particular disorganized flavor of quotes attributed to him have similarities to the speech of schizophrenia-spectrum individuals, as well as of the deliberately disruptive phrasing used in hypnosis as done by Milton Erickson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_H._Erickson

The combination of a radically new positivism about the individual, expressed with brilliant turns-of-phrases born of something like a mental disorder, and a hyper-dramatic martyrdom story, combined to make him the most influential person in history.

"Jesus Was A Schizophrenic"

As always when an idea has legs, the Rate-a-Hate meter on this one could be high, thereby briefly gaining FacewhoreMatrixCombineBigBrother focus and gaining Fame+Money=YoungCunny.

Post: #54

(10-12-2013 07:37 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  If you want to collaborate on a pop history book along the lines of "The Schizophrenic Genius Jesus" I'm down and have somewhat marginal but real academic credentials including published research, PM me!

Speaking of schizo's, why post 4x in a row?

Post: #55

Iknowexactly, speak for yourself. I will not be forgotten in five hundred years unless there is massive heat attack or volcanic erruption on certain parts on the United States.

I might not be famous yet, but the above is already set.

To all the guys here who accept Jesus and god as their alpha male overlords, wouldn't you rather have a real man like odin or Zeus as your god? Jesus seems kind like a pussy, and god is also a wimp who never shows his true form.

Also, how can you trust a god that never reveals himself? What does he have to hide? Maybe he's satan in disguise.

EDIT:

Guys, I realize that all my posts on this thread are wrong. Jesus is real!! And look at the Satanic feminist with glowing eyes in the background.


Actually- I think this is a good look for Roosh. I know for a fact that he had hair like that and the long beard, and dressed too stand out from the crowd, he'd be slaying girls left and right in North BK with this rock-star look.

Post: #56

(10-12-2013 08:08 AM)soup Wrote:  Iknowexactly, speak for yourself. I will not be forgotten in five hundred years unless there is massive heat attack or volcanic erruption on certain parts on the United States.

I might not be famous yet, but the above is already set.

OK, from what you say, the "you" you will become soon will be famous .

Congratulations, I hope it works and you accomplish your goal.

But that's not the "you" you are now. We're just anonymous internet posters, unless you're world famous already in an important area.

Nelson Eddy was once the most famous singer in America I believe.

I doubt 1/100 20 year olds or even 40 year olds would even know who he is.

Real, lasting fame-- virtual immortality like Jesus has and we don't, is difficult to achieve, almost to a point beyond description. I'd guess it's more rare than winning a million dollars in a lottery.

Post: #57

(10-12-2013 07:42 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  Speaking of schizo's, why post 4x in a row?

I didn't, the OTHER ONES did!!!

Post: #58

(10-12-2013 03:13 AM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  Regardless of whether or not there was an actual Jewish mystic in Judea known as Yeshua ben Yosef, the stories surrounding his life not unreliable.

My bad. I meant not reliable.

Post: #59

Post: #60

(10-12-2013 03:13 AM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  Regardless of whether or not there was an actual Jewish mystic in Judea known as Yeshua ben Yosef, the stories surrounding his life not unreliable.

I imagine it as very similar to the Trojan War or King Arthur: it is known there was a city called Troy in Asia Minor that was attacked by a coalition of Bronze Age Greeks, but that doesn't necessarily make any of the events in Homer's poetry reliable. Likewise, I can imagine the story of King Arthur having some base in reality, but that doesn't make any of the other details of the legend reliable either.

Also, the depiction of Jesus as a bearded white man with long hair is something later Christian artists completely made up (probably in the same way Chinese and Japanese depictions of Buddha all make him look East Asian even though he was Indian).





Starting at about 14:42, you can see how visual depictions of Jesus started long after his death, and the earliest images of him were of an effeminate boy with curly hair and a wand (inspired somewhat by images of Apollo, according to the video).

Very interesting.

Post: #61

I am an atheist.

But with that said - it is interesting to note that of the twelve Apostles - eleven of them were tortured and killed for proclaiming Jesus as being the son of God. The twelfth was sentenced to live out his days in exile.

To me that is quite a powerful thing to think about.

Even though I don't believe in God myself.

Post: #62

(10-12-2013 02:07 AM)LeBeau Wrote:  

(10-11-2013 10:42 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  There are even more interesting passages in the letters of Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan in which he asks for advice on how to deal with Christian fanatics. He asks for guidance how how to interrogate them, and under what conditions they should be executed. These letters make for amazing reading, and if anyone's interested I can quote them. The gist is that Pliny, and educated and urbane Roman, was shocked at how ignorant and fanatical these early "Christians" were.

True history is almost always stranger than fiction...

Always feel free to expand on your posts when it comes to these historical discussions, I'm sure I'm not the only one who enjoys learning more from the past.

+1 overdue rep point from me, also enjoyed the educational ROK posts.

__________________________

Thanks, LeBeau. I'm glad you and many others here have historical interest, as I do. Earlier this year, I was working on a Latin textbook and came across some letters of Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan. Pliny was a very refined man, and his letters are a great source of information about life and society in the Empire in his day. (Incidentally, Pliny's uncle, Pliny the Elder, was also a distinguished encyclopedist and died in the Vesuvius eruption).

At one point he was stationed as a government official in Roman Palestine and was tasked with keeping order. He had to deal with various religious sects, fanatics, "holy men", and the like.
What is very interesting about his correspondence from this period is how he and other Romans viewed the new sect (or, to phrase it more unkindly, cult) of Christianity. There's no substitute for first-hand accounts. He just can't understand these dour fanatics. Check out these examples:


[i][i]TO THE EMPEROR TRAJAN

[i]IT is a rule, Sir, which I inviolably observe, to refer myself to you in all my doubts; for who is more capable of guiding my uncertainty or informing my ignorance? Having never been present at any trials of the Christians, I am unacquainted with the method and limits to be observed either in examining or punishing them. Whether any difference is to be made on account of age, or no distinction allowed between the youngest and the adult; whether repentance admits to a pardon, or if a man has been once a Christian it avails him nothing to recant; whether the mere profession of Christianity, albeit without crimes, or only the crimes associated therewith are punishable�in all these points I am greatly doubtful.

In the meanwhile, the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were Christians; if they confessed it I repeated the question twice again, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed. For whatever the nature of their creed might be, I could at least feel no doubt that contumacy and inflexible obstinacy deserved chastisement. There were others also possessed with the same infatuation, but being citizens of Rome, I directed them to be carried thither.

These accusations spread (as is usually the case) from the mere fact of the matter being investigated and several forms of the mischief came to light. A placard was put up, without any signature, accusing a large number of persons by name. Those who denied they were, or had ever been, Christians, who repeated after me an invocation to the Gods, and offered adoration, with wine and frankincense, to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for that purpose, together with those of tbe Gods, and who finally cursed Christ�none of which acts, it is said, those who are really Christians can be forced into performing�these I thought it proper to discharge. Others who were named by that informer at first confessed themselves Christians, and then denied it; true, they had been of that persuasion but they had quitted it, some three years, others many years, and a few as much as twentyfive years ago. They all worshipped your statue and the images of the Gods, and cursed Christ.

They affirmed, however, the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food�but food of an ordinary and innocent kind. Even this practice, however, they had abandoned after the publication of my edict, by which, according to your orders, I had forbidden political associations. I judged it so much the more necessary to extract the real truth, with the assistance of torture, from two female slaves, who were styled deaconesses: but I could discover nothing more than depraved and excessive superstition.

I therefore adjourned the proceedings, and betook myself at once to your counsel. For the matter seemed to me well worth referring to you, especially considering the numbers endangered. Persons of all ranks and ages, and of both sexes are, and will be, involved in the prosecution. For this contagious superstition is not confined to the cities only, but has spread through the villages and rural districts; it seems possible, however, to check and cure it. 'Tis certain at least that the temples, which had been almost deserted, begin now to be frequented; and the sacred festivals, after a long intermission, are again revived; while there is a general demand for sacrificial animals, which for some time past have met with but few purchasers. From hence it is easy to imagine what multitudes may be reclaimed from this error, if a door be left open to repentance.[/i][/i][/i] [Pliny, Letters, X.96]

Basically, Pliny was not certain how to deal with these religious fanatics. He was wondering if his methods of examination and torture were correctly applied. The Emperor Trajan's response has been preserved. Here it is:


LETTER 97

TRAJAN TO PLINY

THE METHOD YOU have pursued, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those denounced to you as Cbristians is extremely proper. It is not possible to lay down any general rule which can be applied as the fixed standard in all cases of this nature. No search should be made for these people; when they are denounced and found guilty they must be punished; with the restriction, however, that when the party denies himself to be a Christian, and shall give proof that he is not (that is, by adoring our gods) he shall be pardoned on the ground of repentance, even though he may have formerly incurred suspicion. Informations without the accuser's name subscribed must not be admitted in evidence against anyone, as it is introducing a very dangerous precedent, and by no means agreeable to the spirit of the age. [Pliny, Letters X.97]

I think what we can conclude from all this is that to the contemporary Roman imperial authorities, the Christians were seen as a subversive nuisance. The educated, urbane Roman administration could only scratch their heads at these odd Semitic fanatics.
But as it turned out, the Romans underestimated the appeal that Christianity had to the masses. In a couple hundred years, it would become the official religion of the Empire.

History is strange, isn't it?

Post: #63

Not arsed as all abrahamaic religions are fake

Post: #64

Page three and counting....

Post: #65

Very interesting Quintus,

(10-12-2013 01:08 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  LETTER 97

TRAJAN TO PLINY

Informations without the accuser's name subscribed must not be admitted in evidence against anyone, as it is introducing a very dangerous precedent, and by no means agreeable to the spirit of the age. [Pliny, Letters X.97]

and I like how they didn't accept anonymous accusations.

Post: #66

PROVING NON-EXISTENCE
Demanding that one proves the non-existence of something in place for providing adequate evidence for the existence of that something. Although it may be possible to prove non-existence in special situations, such as showing that a container does not contain certain items, one cannot prove universal or absolute non-existence. The proof of existence must come from those who make the claims.

Post: #67

Speaking of Jesus, how good is the sideplot in Bulgakov's "The Master and Margarita"? Such a great read.

Post: #68

(10-12-2013 03:32 PM)ballsyamog Wrote:  PROVING NON-EXISTENCE
Demanding that one proves the non-existence of something in place for providing adequate evidence for the existence of that something. Although it may be possible to prove non-existence in special situations, such as showing that a container does not contain certain items, one cannot prove universal or absolute non-existence. The proof of existence must come from those who make the claims.

Yes but let's compare probabilities.

Seriously- do you really believe in Jesus? You have to be kidding me.

You believe that he "arose from the dead" like a Zombie? I submit to you that he never was actually dead in the first place.

This is just another mangling of language and play on semantics to trick the weak-minded.

A god who exists outside of existence? Another language trick.

It's kind of like how girls use the word "creepy" to describe things that aren't actually creepy.

Guys- please don't have the mind of betas/women.

There is no god. There is no Jesus.

That stuff is irrelevant. You don't need it. You don't need to be afraid of life. You are going to die. There is no "after-life" (another word trick).

Don't be distracted by the shiny, shimmering objects like fish to a lure.

Everyone on this board should be smarter than that..

Post: #69

Jesus was the first and last Christian, if he indeed existed. The people who call themselves "Christians" today are a complete joke, since they're so far removed from his teachings and philosophy. Wasn't he quoted as saying "you cannot worship both God and mammon" yet virtually all Americans today do EXACTLY THAT??

Post: #70

(10-12-2013 03:40 PM)soup Wrote:  Seriously- do you really believe in Jesus? You have to be kidding me.

As a more or less lifelong atheist, I have started to believe that as long as they are not maniacs bothering people, it's more important for religious people to be happy than it is for me to be right.

It's like do you run around yelling at five year olds there's no Santa Claus?

Not everyone has the intellectual ability to understand a world with a God is more unlikely than a non-patrolled chaotic world.

And not everyone likes the idea they are just going to totally disappear.

As long as they don't bother you with their beliefs, why try to convert them? IF that person is happier as a religious person, isn't it better that they remain like that? It's not like Athiests believe there's a philosphy test at the end of life, and you win if you were smart enough not to believe. They'll just disappear, there'll be no literal "heaven", but they will have been happier through their life.

Post: #71

(10-12-2013 04:06 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(10-12-2013 03:40 PM)soup Wrote:  Seriously- do you really believe in Jesus? You have to be kidding me.

As a more or less lifelong atheist...

I agree both with Soup and you.

Like I'm sure many here I don't go around proselytizing anyone, honestly very seldom this discussion comes up in every day life, but like you said "As long as they don't bother you with their beliefs" you shouldn't be an obnoxious person trying to prove everyone else wrong, let them be happy in their delusions if they want, but when they try to push their delusions down your throat that's when you have to fight back and let them know you're not interested and explain why if they ask.

Post: #72

(10-12-2013 01:08 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  They affirmed, however, the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food�but food of an ordinary and innocent kind. Even this practice, however, they had abandoned after the publication of my edict, by which, according to your orders, I had forbidden political associations. I judged it so much the more necessary to extract the real truth, with the assistance of torture, from two female slaves, who were styled deaconesses: but I could discover nothing more than depraved and excessive superstition.

....

...

In a couple hundred years, it would become the official religion of the Empire.

History is strange, isn't it?

This is fascinating information and I think it reflects the fact , then and now, that probably many, many high government officials are in fact Atheist or agnostic. But they must wear the religion of the masses in the interests of keeping the drones placated.

Notice what they DIDN'T say.

-- "Jupiter/Zeus/whoever will be enraged".

---" I trust after the repented they REALLY believed in Jupiter/Zeus whoever"

They said that the Christians were superstitious, and noted that their practices simply were to be ethical and truthful.

This indicates strongly that these officials themselves treated religion rather cavalierly and didn't even in letters to those above them try to portray themselves as "true believers". Than as now, the elite know the difference between what they see and what they fantasize about, and that is a part of their superior effectiveness.

Now to the second part of this interesting scenario:
Coming soon Part 2:

"What was the appeal of Christianity in the Psychological Market of Ancient Rome?"

Post: #73

(10-12-2013 04:20 PM)Teutatis Wrote:  when they try to push their delusions down your throat that's when you have to fight back and let them know you're not interested and explain why if they ask.

Good point, after the recent round of fringe cavemen blowing up whatever they can get their hands on in some distorted interpretation of Islam, there is a stock phrase I use--

"Anyone that thinks they have some kind of transcendental knowledge is at risk of thinking they have a transcendental duty to kill unbelievers."

Then on the other hand we have the Brevik narcissist who was off the hinge at the other end, killing teens at a liberal party camp because he thought they were going to be too tolerant. It would be insane to think most people of the Islamic delusion want to murder anyone over religion.

Post: #74

There is a nice line I heard somewhere. Which is how I feel about my lack of belief in God.

"I'm an atheist - but I don't make a religion out of it."

Post: #75

Let's be honest, if some guy went into the desert in this day and age and came back proclaiming to be bringing the word of God what would we call him? Someone who is mentally unstable
Notably Jesus and Mohammed have done this.