Post: #226

(09-06-2013 02:32 PM)Samseau Wrote:  [...]
Science cannot apply to things that cannot be falsified, such as morality or religion.[i.e. "god"--GT ed]

Post: #227

That kind of quote is exactly why religion will be dead by the end of this century.

Post: #228

Who is that black guy?

Post: #229

Dammit, there goes the religion troll again. Just kidding, Quintus . Interesting thread.

@ Samseau -- Man cannot prove the non-existence of God, but we can certainly provide significant evidence for the existence and validity of myriad phenomena that most religions reject as antithetical to their dogma (age of the earth, origins of the universe, quantum theory, evolution, etc.). I respect your writing a lot but I think your characterization of atheism as "believing there is nothing outside of our five senses" is highly reductionist at best. It's certainly possible to believe that science cannot explain or has not explained everything in our world without resorting to the idea that a higher power creates and runs everything. Your summary of human cognition as evidence of creation is particularly lacking. Of course it follows that out of the literally billions of possibilities for intelligent life to evolve in the universe, the one that develops advanced cognitive capabilities is going to question its origin and existence. It's the weak anthropic principle at work.

@ MikeCF -- I agree that Christian religious doctrine espouses "red pill" aspects of gender relations, but it's hard to argue that in modern day these are still holding ground. We see the erosion of many of these red pill practices due to the influence of feminism on the church, and it still leaves open the question of whether the act of religious belief itself (and not simply the values intertwined with the dogma) is red pill. You've made a good argument for the latter, but not for the former.

Re: Roosh's tweet, I think the concepts of atheism and consumerism are orthogonal to each other. We can all agree that America is one of the most consumerist societies on the planet. But if Atheism breeds consumerism, it makes little sense that an astoundingly high percentage of Americans (90%+) believe in God. We have higher rates of religious belief than nearly ever other westernized non-theocracy, so there must be some other force at work that encourages this behavior. Not to make a NAWALT (NAAALT?) argument, but most of the non-believers I know are significantly less consumerist than the people who attempt to impress the joneses at church every Sunday and are fully bought into the "American dream" rat race of 9-5 job, expensive mortgage, 2.5 kids, picket fence, car lease, credit card debt, etc. that we know leads to disaster.

I'm not sure I fully understand Roosh's tweet about atheists having no tradition or real values. It's perplexing to me that a gathering of men who have developed a skill based on experimentation, learning, and self-reflection think that it's impossible to have a moral compass without believing in some mystical father figure controlling it all. If I were running a country I would probably promote religion too, but only as a tool of controlling the impulses of the masses. That doesn't make it any more palatable for me to use it as a guiding force in my life.

Ultimately, I think the anti-Atheist sect in the manosphere tends to conflate the feminized, low-testosterone pseudointellectual "atheists" on Reddit (who are just lumping themselves in with those movements to have an identity) with people who just refuse to accept religious teachings. I have as much contempt for the Reddit freaks as any of you, but ultimately from my perspective believing that an un-knowable and all-powerful force put me on this earth and controls my fate is the ultimate blue pill belief. There are externalities with religion that can be highly positive, but I'd rather take those and incorporate them into my world view without resorting to mysticism.

Post: #230

(09-06-2013 04:46 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  Who is that black guy?

he is one Bad Mother Furkcker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson

Post: #231

(09-06-2013 04:58 PM)GameTheory Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 04:46 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  Who is that black guy?

he is one Bad Mother Furkcker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson

According to the video in the below link, he explicitly says that he is NOT an atheist.

He says:

”"The only ‘ist’ I am is a scientist. I don’t associate with any movements.”

He sounds more like a person interested in open inquiry and he doesn't appear to be a typical fundamentalist atheist conducting jihad against religion.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2012/04/...ing-video/

Post: #232

(09-06-2013 05:37 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 04:58 PM)GameTheory Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 04:46 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  Who is that black guy?

he is one Bad Mother Furkcker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson

According to the video in the below link, he explicitly says that he is NOT an atheist.

He says:

”"The only ‘ist’ I am is a scientist. I don’t associate with any movements.”

He sounds more like a person interested in open inquiry and he doesn't appear to be a typical fundamentalist atheist conducting jihad against religion.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2012/04/...ing-video/

Maybe, but his opinions and quotes would be deemed "leftist", "feminist", "atheist" et al by the religious people on here.

Post: #233

(09-06-2013 04:27 PM)Acute Angle Wrote:  The power of science is prediction.

Of course this description of science has been debunked by David Hume over two centuries ago. Is there anything else you'd like to discuss?

Here's a short recap for the non-philosophically literate:

- Anyone can predict the sun will come up tomorrow, doesn't mean you're a scientist
- Anyone can make a prediction without knowing the true cause and effects
- For all we know the cause and effects we witness are purely accidental and may be happening for completely different reasons

Just because you saw the sun come up every day for the past twenty years doesn't mean you know it will come up tomorrow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction

Post: #234

(09-06-2013 04:55 PM)Black Knight Wrote:  @ Samseau -- Man cannot prove the non-existence of God, but we can certainly provide significant evidence for the existence and validity of myriad phenomena that most religions reject as antithetical to their dogma (age of the earth, origins of the universe, quantum theory, evolution, etc.).

Big deal, means nothing. A lot of bullshit gets passed off as religion when in fact they're just a bunch of crazies.

I'm sure there are plenty of atheists with whackjob ideas too.

Quote:I respect your writing a lot but I think your characterization of atheism as "believing there is nothing outside of our five senses" is highly reductionist at best. It's certainly possible to believe that science cannot explain or has not explained everything in our world without resorting to the idea that a higher power creates and runs everything.

The point wasn't that there is a higher power that runs everything, the point is that basic observation would lead almost anyone to conclude that the universe was designed by something. Even though this observation isn't scientific, it baffles common sense to imagine such an extremely large and complex place such as the universe, of which we have pathetic knowledge of, is merely an accident with no cause.

Quote: Your summary of human cognition as evidence of creation is particularly lacking.

Never said that. I said no one understands human cogition, which is true.

Still waiting for that mind control machine.

Quote:Of course it follows that out of the literally billions of possibilities for intelligent life to evolve in the universe, the one that develops advanced cognitive capabilities is going to question its origin and existence. It's the weak anthropic principle at work.

Actually that doesn't follow anymore than the idea that out of trillions of possibilities there is a God.

Post: #235

My biggest problem with atheists is they display a near total lack of skepticism, even though they all claim to be skeptics. The average atheist is a hypocrite.

Post: #236

Again, which religion do you follow? ^

Post: #237

I just have to say: this is a great thread. It's a real pleasure and privilege for me to be here.
Intense, spirited, no-holds-barred. Which is just how I like it...mental pugil-stick fighting. We rule.
Have a position and defend it...or you're just running scared:



QC

Post: #238

(09-06-2013 06:08 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 04:27 PM)Acute Angle Wrote:  The power of science is prediction.

Of course this description of science has been debunked by David Hume over two centuries ago. Is there anything else you'd like to discuss?

I don't see how a such a statement could possibly be disproven, since it isn't provable to begin with. Prediction generally is a mainstay of science. You use a mechanistic understanding to predict a result based on a principle of reproducibility.

Quote:- Anyone can predict the sun will come up tomorrow, doesn't mean you're a scientist

Right, but there's a difference between predicting the sun will come up tomorrow, and using a mechanistic understanding of the solar system to predict it will happen barring some catastrophe.

Quote:- Anyone can make a prediction without knowing the true cause and effects

Yes, gravity is a good example. Newton could predict an apple would fall from a tree despite the absence of general relativity during his era. In other words, our mechanistic understanding of the world can expand. That doesn't invalidate the predictive power of science at any level of understanding. Let's say God really is ultimately behind it all. That still wouldn't invalidate the predictive power of science.

Quote:- For all we know the cause and effects we witness are purely accidental and may be happening for completely different reasons.

Yes, but in terms of a mechanistic understanding of the universe, we only have reason to believe what we have evidence for. There may be an unknowable discontinuity between cause and effect, but that still doesn't prevent us from making predictions based on an expanding mechanistic understanding. Furthermore, there is thus far no evidence for an unknowable discontinuity between cause and effect, which means for all intents and purposes believing such in the face of a workable model is merely philosophical masturbation.

Quote:Just because you saw the sun come up every day for the past twenty years doesn't mean you know it will come up tomorrow.

True, but this isn't a problem of induction. This is why science maintains theories rather than hard-and-fast dogmas. Based on our current mechanistic understanding of the solar system, it is reasonable to infer the sun will indeed rise tomorrow. It is not reasonable, however, to discount the current body of astronomical evidence in favor of an epistemological approach that maintains nothing is ultimately knowable.

Post: #239

(09-06-2013 06:45 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  Intense, spirited, no-holds-barred. Which is just how I like it...mental pugil-stick fighting. We rule.

Lol. If you think this is tough....This thread would've been a royal rumble 2 years ago. Things have gotten much more civilized as of late. This is good though as its not out of hand and locked up, because the Atheists are seeing the error of their ways and leaving the thread to go off to church.

Post: #240

Indeed, at the same time as the religious are rushing off to buy a signed copy of the God Delusion

Post: #241

I don't have time tonight but if you guys want I'll lay this all out for you. As far as the topic goes the " red pill" mainly exists here from some stupid movie. You really can't walk around talking to people in real life about how it has to do with this stuff they just won't get it so this is pretty much a RVF specific conversation.

In real life though all the atheists I've met are total toolbags. Suedo intellectual types, slovenly

Post: #242

(09-06-2013 07:11 PM)Teedub Wrote:  Indeed, at the same time as the religious are rushing off to buy a signed copy of the God Delusion

It makes no sense to talk to people who have their ideas made up already. So I'll make this my last comment on the thread.

The only thing that goes through their head is how good the old times used to be and how religion is great...

....despite not following what religion recommends.

They strike and run, demand us to answer their questions but ignore our questions. This has not been answered " How come some RVF members preach despite not following 'religious values' themselves". Most refuse to get married and have a family, heck...some support abortion, thus giving such people no reason to complain.

Following their beliefs, Jesus advocated for the poor....yet they are the one who strongly oppose help the poor and scream "welfare, obummer is giving away free welfare!!". In the bible, Jesus is a character who is a socialist. Providing for the poor, going against the powerful.

Post: #243

^Good point, Cattle Rustler. I put this in another thread, but I think it belongs here as well.

For those so-called Christians that have never actually read the bible, here are a few passages in the bible that mention the poor:

Deuteronomy 10:18 He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing.


Deuteronomy 14:28-29 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.


Deuteronomy 15:7-8 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs.


Deuteronomy 15:11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land.


Joshua 1:14-15 ...You are to help your brothers until the LORD gives them rest, as he has done for you...


1 Samuel 2:7-8 The LORD sends poverty and wealth; he humbles and he exalts. He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor.


Nehemiah 9:15 But when they were oppressed they cried out to you. From heaven you heard them, and in your great compassion you gave them deliverers, who rescued them from the hand of their enemies.


Job 5:15-16 He saves the needy from the sword in their mouth; he saves them from the clutches of the powerful. So the poor have hope, and injustice shuts its mouth.


Job 24:5 Like wild donkeys in the desert, the poor go about their labor foraging their food; the wasteland provides food for their children.


Psalm 9:9 The LORD is a refuge for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble.


Psalm 9:18 But the needy will not always be forgotten, nor the hope of the afflicted ever perish.


Psalm 12:5 "Because of the oppression of the weak and the groaning of the needy, I will now arise," says the LORD. "Then I will protect them from those who malign them."


Psalm 17:14 You still the hunger of those you cherish; their sons have plenty, and they store up wealth for their children.


Psalm 22:26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the Lord will praise him.


Psalm 35:10 "You rescue the poor from those too strong for them, the poor and needy from those who rob them."


Psalm 37:25 I was young and now I am old, yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging bread.


Psalm 72:4 He will defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; he will crush the oppressor.


Psalm 72:12-14 For he will deliver the needy who cry out, the afflicted who have no one to help. He will take pity on the weak and the needy and save the needy from death. He will rescue them from oppression and violence, for precious is their blood in his sight.


Psalm 82:3-4 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.


Psalm 102:17 He will respond to the prayer of the destitute; he will not despise their plea.


Psalm 107:9 … for he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things.


Psalm 109:31 For he stands at the right hand of the needy one, to save his life from those who condemn him.


Psalm 113:7 He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap.


Psalm 140:12 I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy.


Psalm 145:14-18 The LORD upholds all those who fall and lifts up all who are bowed down. The eyes of all look to you, and you give them their food at the proper time. You open your hand and satisfy the desires of every living thing. The LORD is righteous in all his ways and loving toward all he has made. The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.


Psalm 146:7-9 He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets prisoners free, the LORD gives sight to the blind, the LORD lifts up those who are bowed down, the LORD loves the righteous. The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.


Proverbs 3:27-28 Do not withhold good from those who deserve it, when it is in your power to act. Do not say to your neighbor, "Come back later; I'll give it tomorrow" — when you now have it with you.


Proverbs 10:3 The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.


Proverbs 11:24-25 One man gives freely, yet gains even more; another withholds unduly, but comes to poverty. A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.


Proverbs 14:20-21 The poor are shunned even by their neighbors, but the rich have many friends. He who despises his neighbor sins, but blessed is he who is kind to the needy.


Proverbs 14:31 He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.


Proverbs 19:17 He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done.


Proverbs 22:9 A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor.


Proverbs 22:16 He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich — both come to poverty.


Proverbs 22:22-23 Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court, for the LORD will take up their case and will plunder those who plunder them.


Proverbs 28:27 He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses.


Proverbs 31:8-9 "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."


Proverbs 31:20 She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy.


Isaiah 1:17 Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow.


Isaiah 10:1-3 Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar? To whom will you run for help? Where will you leave your riches?


Isaiah 14:30 The poorest of the poor will find pasture, and the needy will lie down in safety.


Isaiah 25:4 You have been a refuge for the poor, a refuge for the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm and a shade from the heat.


Isaiah 41:17-18 "The poor and needy search for water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them. I will make rivers flow on barren heights, and springs within the valleys. I will turn the desert into pools of water, and the parched ground into springs."


Isaiah 58:6-11

"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter — when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

"Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard. Then you will call, and the LORD will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I. If you do away with the yoke of oppression, with the pointing finger and malicious talk, and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday.

"The LORD will guide you always; he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land and will strengthen your frame. You will be like a well-watered garden, like a spring whose waters never fail."


Isaiah 61:1-3 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, and provide for those who grieve in Zion — to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the LORD for the display of his splendor.


Jeremiah 22:3 "This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place."


Jeremiah 22:16 "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" declares the LORD.


Lamentations 4:4 Because of thirst the infant's tongue sticks to the roof of its mouth; the children beg for bread, but no one gives it to them.


Ezekiel 16:49 "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."


Micah 6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.


Zechariah 7:9-10 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other.'"


Matthew 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."


Matthew 25:34-40

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'"


Matthew 26:11 The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me.


Mark 14:7 "The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me."


Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed."


Luke 6:20 Looking at his disciples he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God."


Luke 6:36 "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."


Luke 14:12-14 Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."


John 12:8 "You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me."


Acts 20:35 "In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"


Romans 12:13 Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.


Romans 15:1-2 We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.


1 Corinthians 10:24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.


2 Corinthians 1:3-4 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God.


2 Corinthians 8:2-4, 7

Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity.
For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints.

But just as you excel in everything — in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us — see that you also excel in this grace of giving.


2 Corinthians 9:6-13

Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

As it is written: "He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor; his righteousness endures forever." Now he who supplies seed to the shower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity wil result in thanksgiving to God.

This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.


1 Timothy 5:3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need.


James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.


James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?


James 2:15-17 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.


1 John 3:17-18 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

Post: #244

@Texas Prophet and Cattle Rustler- You keep bringing up Christians helping the poor. Are you two hinting around that you're broke and need some money? If so I can help your plight.

Post: #245

(09-06-2013 07:51 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  @Texas Prophet and Cattle Rustler- You keep bringing up Christians helping the poor. Are you two hinting around that you're broke and need some money? If so I can help your plight.

No, I am not poor and I don't need your money.

We are just pointing out that you so-called Christians are hypocritical at best and fools at worst.

Post: #246

(09-06-2013 06:12 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 04:55 PM)Black Knight Wrote:  @ Samseau -- Man cannot prove the non-existence of God, but we can certainly provide significant evidence for the existence and validity of myriad phenomena that most religions reject as antithetical to their dogma (age of the earth, origins of the universe, quantum theory, evolution, etc.).

Big deal, means nothing. A lot of bullshit gets passed off as religion when in fact they're just a bunch of crazies.

I'm sure there are plenty of atheists with whackjob ideas too.

Quote:I respect your writing a lot but I think your characterization of atheism as "believing there is nothing outside of our five senses" is highly reductionist at best. It's certainly possible to believe that science cannot explain or has not explained everything in our world without resorting to the idea that a higher power creates and runs everything.

The point wasn't that there is a higher power that runs everything, the point is that basic observation would lead almost anyone to conclude that the universe was designed by something. Even though this observation isn't scientific, it baffles common sense to imagine such an extremely large and complex place such as the universe, of which we have pathetic knowledge of, is merely an accident with no cause.

Quote: Your summary of human cognition as evidence of creation is particularly lacking.

Never said that. I said no one understands human cogition, which is true.

Still waiting for that mind control machine.

Quote:Of course it follows that out of the literally billions of possibilities for intelligent life to evolve in the universe, the one that develops advanced cognitive capabilities is going to question its origin and existence. It's the weak anthropic principle at work.

Actually that doesn't follow anymore than the idea that out of trillions of possibilities there is a God.

Dude, watch that Conway's Game of Life video that I posted.

He proves that complexity can arise from simplicity, and there isn't a need for a designer.

Post: #247

(09-06-2013 07:03 PM)Wadsworth Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 06:08 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 04:27 PM)Acute Angle Wrote:  The power of science is prediction.

Of course this description of science has been debunked by David Hume over two centuries ago. Is there anything else you'd like to discuss?

I don't see how a such a statement could possibly be disproven, since it isn't provable to begin with. Prediction generally is a mainstay of science. You use a mechanistic understanding to predict a result based on a principle of reproducibility.

Quote:- Anyone can predict the sun will come up tomorrow, doesn't mean you're a scientist

Right, but there's a difference between predicting the sun will come up tomorrow, and using a mechanistic understanding of the solar system to predict it will happen barring some catastrophe.

Quote:- Anyone can make a prediction without knowing the true cause and effects

Yes, gravity is a good example. Newton could predict an apple would fall from a tree despite the absence of general relativity during his era. In other words, our mechanistic understanding of the world can expand. That doesn't invalidate the predictive power of science at any level of understanding. Let's say God really is ultimately behind it all. That still wouldn't invalidate the predictive power of science.

Quote:- For all we know the cause and effects we witness are purely accidental and may be happening for completely different reasons.

Yes, but in terms of a mechanistic understanding of the universe, we only have reason to believe what we have evidence for. There may be an unknowable discontinuity between cause and effect, but that still doesn't prevent us from making predictions based on an expanding mechanistic understanding. Furthermore, there is thus far no evidence for an unknowable discontinuity between cause and effect, which means for all intents and purposes believing such in the face of a workable model is merely philosophical masturbation.

Quote:Just because you saw the sun come up every day for the past twenty years doesn't mean you know it will come up tomorrow.

True, but this isn't a problem of induction. This is why science maintains theories rather than hard-and-fast dogmas. Based on our current mechanistic understanding of the solar system, it is reasonable to infer the sun will indeed rise tomorrow. It is not reasonable, however, to discount the current body of astronomical evidence in favor of an epistemological approach that maintains nothing is ultimately knowable.

Ah, but now you're backtracking. If all we have is theories, then in reality all we know is what is likely not to be true, which isn't the same thing at all as making predictions. We aren't "predicting" anything in a prophet like sense, but rather we are saying,

"Well, according to the best of our collective experiences up until this point in time based on previous observations."

Which isn't good enough for anything like morality or religion, since both are active proscriptions of what we SHOULD be doing and not merely what has been done.

And that was the original point I was trying to make, which is why I brought up the limitations of science in the first place. (If you go back and read through the prior remarks I was making to Soup and Cattle Rustler you'll understand what I mean.)

Post: #248

(09-06-2013 09:52 PM)soup Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 06:12 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 04:55 PM)Black Knight Wrote:  @ Samseau -- Man cannot prove the non-existence of God, but we can certainly provide significant evidence for the existence and validity of myriad phenomena that most religions reject as antithetical to their dogma (age of the earth, origins of the universe, quantum theory, evolution, etc.).

Big deal, means nothing. A lot of bullshit gets passed off as religion when in fact they're just a bunch of crazies.

I'm sure there are plenty of atheists with whackjob ideas too.

Quote:I respect your writing a lot but I think your characterization of atheism as "believing there is nothing outside of our five senses" is highly reductionist at best. It's certainly possible to believe that science cannot explain or has not explained everything in our world without resorting to the idea that a higher power creates and runs everything.

The point wasn't that there is a higher power that runs everything, the point is that basic observation would lead almost anyone to conclude that the universe was designed by something. Even though this observation isn't scientific, it baffles common sense to imagine such an extremely large and complex place such as the universe, of which we have pathetic knowledge of, is merely an accident with no cause.

Quote: Your summary of human cognition as evidence of creation is particularly lacking.

Never said that. I said no one understands human cogition, which is true.

Still waiting for that mind control machine.

Quote:Of course it follows that out of the literally billions of possibilities for intelligent life to evolve in the universe, the one that develops advanced cognitive capabilities is going to question its origin and existence. It's the weak anthropic principle at work.

Actually that doesn't follow anymore than the idea that out of trillions of possibilities there is a God.

Dude, watch that Conway's Game of Life video that I posted.

He proves that complexity can arise from simplicity, and there isn't a need for a designer.

He's just making probabilistic reasoning when in reality we have no idea what the probabilities are.

My opinion remains unchanged. I see a giant universe with an intricate design and my gut instinct is that something designed it. Everything works too perfectly together for it to be an accident.

Post: #249

(09-07-2013 12:25 AM)Samseau Wrote:  My opinion remains unchanged. I see a giant universe with an intricate design and my gut instinct is that something designed it. Everything works too perfectly together for it to be an accident.

I would agree with that to an extent. What I do not believe is in organized religion and its version of "god". I am a little confused. Are you arguing that something is out there or are you arguing that one of the gods from all the organized religions did this?

You still haven't answered if you are really a Christian or practice any other religion for that matter.

However, the point of argument in this thread was that religious people are more red-pill than atheists. Where do you specifically stand on that? So far you have argued in favor of organized religion but what you said above is a very different position than believing in organized religion and its version of god.

Post: #250

(09-07-2013 12:23 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 07:03 PM)Wadsworth Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 06:08 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 04:27 PM)Acute Angle Wrote:  The power of science is prediction.

Of course this description of science has been debunked by David Hume over two centuries ago. Is there anything else you'd like to discuss?

I don't see how a such a statement could possibly be disproven, since it isn't provable to begin with. Prediction generally is a mainstay of science. You use a mechanistic understanding to predict a result based on a principle of reproducibility.

Quote:- Anyone can predict the sun will come up tomorrow, doesn't mean you're a scientist

Right, but there's a difference between predicting the sun will come up tomorrow, and using a mechanistic understanding of the solar system to predict it will happen barring some catastrophe.

Quote:- Anyone can make a prediction without knowing the true cause and effects

Yes, gravity is a good example. Newton could predict an apple would fall from a tree despite the absence of general relativity during his era. In other words, our mechanistic understanding of the world can expand. That doesn't invalidate the predictive power of science at any level of understanding. Let's say God really is ultimately behind it all. That still wouldn't invalidate the predictive power of science.

Quote:- For all we know the cause and effects we witness are purely accidental and may be happening for completely different reasons.

Yes, but in terms of a mechanistic understanding of the universe, we only have reason to believe what we have evidence for. There may be an unknowable discontinuity between cause and effect, but that still doesn't prevent us from making predictions based on an expanding mechanistic understanding. Furthermore, there is thus far no evidence for an unknowable discontinuity between cause and effect, which means for all intents and purposes believing such in the face of a workable model is merely philosophical masturbation.

Quote:Just because you saw the sun come up every day for the past twenty years doesn't mean you know it will come up tomorrow.

True, but this isn't a problem of induction. This is why science maintains theories rather than hard-and-fast dogmas. Based on our current mechanistic understanding of the solar system, it is reasonable to infer the sun will indeed rise tomorrow. It is not reasonable, however, to discount the current body of astronomical evidence in favor of an epistemological approach that maintains nothing is ultimately knowable.

Which isn't good enough for anything like morality or religion, since both are active proscriptions of what we SHOULD be doing and not merely what has been done.

This much I 100% agree with. But I've never made the claim that science dictates morality, in fact I think people who claim morality is objective (Sam Harris) are foolish.

I suppose my central point in all of this can be summed up simply. Morality, science, and spirituality all exist individually. None of them can speak for the other. The mistake of the church over the centuries has been to invoke "God" to explain and drive all three. "God" cannot describe the nature of the physical universe, nor can "God" describe what is moral. "God" is only functional in discussions on spirituality and personal experiences.

Invoking "God" to support your own morality, as opposed to reason, is a recipe for war. Similarly, invoking God to map the physical universe does not provide a meaningful mechanistic understanding. But when you consider the nature of existence you may have some personal experience of "God." But that's alot different from saying "quantum mechanics because God" or "morality because God."