Post: #151

My thoughts;

Religion is a social construct designed to keep the natural instincts of both male and female humans in check, thereby allowing a safe, sane, growing and lasting society.

The further a society gets from the basic religious tenets, the closer it is to falling.

*I am not religious, but raised Catholic, so my views on religion are based on it's basic teachings.

Post: #152

(09-05-2013 07:34 PM)j r Wrote:  

(09-05-2013 07:30 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  This is a stimulating and important topic for us, because it brings us into uncomfortable contact with the spiritual crisis of our times.
I wanted to add a few things to what our brother Samseau has pointed out in previous posts in this thread.

To understand and appreciate the function of religion, we should take a rationalist approach. It is all too easy to mock the absurdities of theology and ritual, but the mature mind will look beyond this and seek the purpose of such things.

It is not possible for one mind, in one lifetime, to acquire such scope of understanding as to sit in judgment on the traditions of centuries. Religions developed over many thousands of years of trial and error, and the moral codes they embody were arrived at by a long, laborious process of experiment and trial and error. How can we, with our limited experience on this earth, ever hope to comprehend the whole?

Religion is man's ultimate commentary on life and one of his few defenses against death. It is difficult for us, in this age of comfort and leisure to fully understand the hardships that ancient and medieval man faced. This experience of chaos, short life spans, and pestilence is what molded ancient and medieval faiths. We are quick to mock the superstitions and theologies of medieval Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, but forget the hardships and chaos that Christians, Jews, and Muslims faced. It seemed clear to men in those eras that the savage impulses of man could only be reined in by a moral code that had the backing of a Divine Force.

And not only this, but men need a belief system that balances hardships with hope, provides solace in anguish, ennobles his existence with divine poetry (prayers) and art, and provides some defense against the frightening brevity of life by promising an eternal life. It does not matter whether these things are "true" or not. This is the mistake that all atheists make. What a shallow knowledge of human nature do atheists have!

The average man does not want truth; he wants certainty and security. Without religion, life for most simple people becomes a terrifying and coldly impersonal cycle of creation and destruction, devoid of all meaning. There is nothing more tender and inspiring that the devotion and sincerity of medieval man, as he went about the honest pursuit of his faith.

Rituals and symbols are important aspects of religion: prayer, sacraments, and ceremonies, because they bind together the group, bring believers into comforting contact with others, charm the senses with magic and ritual, and instruct the young on proper conduct and morals. What could be more socially useful? We have paid a high price for secularism. And I question the idea of "progress" and "reason" which can prove whatever our impulses desire. Reason is frail: it can be used to prove anything suggested by our passions. And has anyone ever been convinced by logic? The whole man, the complete man, needs both faith and reason bound together in his soul.

Of course one can find incredibilities and absurdities in religions. But the people cry out for them. If atheists take away from people their cherished beliefs, they will simply adopt more and greater superstitions in their place. Atheism can only destroy; it cannot build. And atheists find it difficult to understand why people will never listen to them for long. The reason is that they can provide no consolation for the average person's life. In place of a comforting ritual, the atheist substitutes a cold, analytical sterility.
Atheism has no answer to the mysteries of life, except despair and sterile "knowledge".

No moral code will ever be fully accepted by people unless it is backed up by the force of some "God". Hammurabi, Lycurgus, Numa Pompilius, Mohammed, Moses, and the early Church fathers all instinctively understood this. The atheist, naive as he is, wants to keep the morality and throw out the theology. But this never works. Because it is the theology that causes the lessons to really sink into the people's souls. It is easy to mock theology, but the atheist fails to realize the comfort and solace that theology brings to people in parts of the world wracked by violence, disease, and penury. People need the terrors of hell dangled over their heads, if they are to behave and act in a socially responsible way. Atheism turns man into beasts.

Of course, we can always point out that great cruelties and violence has been done in the name of religion: the Inquisition, the crusades against the Albigensians and Cathars, the persecution of scientists by the Church, the maltreatment of Indians in the New World. All this is true. But without religion, the violence would have been even worse. Man's instincts for violence and sex are very, very strong, and without some moral code holding it in check, anarchy would come about.

This is the very definition of the blue pill.

I sort of hate to agree with this QC, since you spent awhile outlining your thoughts, and I don't entirely disagree with you in many respects.

But if you're arguing that religion provides people the delusion they need from the harsh realities of life, then what else can one call it?

Also, the notion of God may be useful for inward or spiritual travels, but that's it. It can't establish any kind of meaningful morality or model of the physical universe. The greatest failing of the church over the centuries has been a lack of separation between spiritual/moral/scientific, God has been invoked to provide for all three, when in reality it's perhaps only suited to one.

Post: #153

Post: #154

(09-05-2013 08:31 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Religion is a social construct designed to keep the natural instincts of both male and female humans in check, thereby allowing a safe, sane, growing and lasting society.

The further a society gets from the basic religious tenets, the closer it is to falling.

Yes, that's why the most atheistic societies like Sweden and Czechia are known to be such dangerous, brutal hellholes of primal human savagery while the most religious societies like Afghanistan and Somalia are known for safety, sanity and stability.

If it's the usual conservative whining about how those liberal European societies are doomed, doomed, DOOOOOOOMED to fall, well, I'm not seeing it and if it's something that's supposed to happen after a really long time why would I care? I'm not going to be alive then and for those years that I exist I'd rather live in a hedonistic society.

Post: #155

(09-05-2013 01:59 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  For the members here who do believe in god and religion (I have no problems with that), which religion is the one true religion then? Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, or Judaism? Or all of them? Is there one god or different gods from different religions? I know you don't have the answers to those questions. I am just asking because when I think about the different religions and know what I know about society, mankind, and our history, I agree with others who say that god and religions are just devices created to control man.

There are many different paths to god.

The point of religion isn't a higher force telling you how to live (that's how the betas view it).

Religion is a source of parables and lessons that should help you understand how to navigate the craziness of ones life. The lessons are timeless. Look at the book as a guideline on living and not as a "do this or go to hell" type of book.

You can put your faith into Jesus as the one who died for your sins. Hell Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all Abrahmaic religions! They all worship the same god albeit with different traditions.

Post: #156

(09-05-2013 08:50 PM)Wadsworth Wrote:  

(09-05-2013 07:34 PM)j r Wrote:  

(09-05-2013 07:30 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  This is a stimulating and important topic for us, because it brings us into uncomfortable contact with the spiritual crisis of our times.
I wanted to add a few things to what our brother Samseau has pointed out in previous posts in this thread.

To understand and appreciate the function of religion, we should take a rationalist approach. It is all too easy to mock the absurdities of theology and ritual, but the mature mind will look beyond this and seek the purpose of such things.

It is not possible for one mind, in one lifetime, to acquire such scope of understanding as to sit in judgment on the traditions of centuries. Religions developed over many thousands of years of trial and error, and the moral codes they embody were arrived at by a long, laborious process of experiment and trial and error. How can we, with our limited experience on this earth, ever hope to comprehend the whole?

Religion is man's ultimate commentary on life and one of his few defenses against death. It is difficult for us, in this age of comfort and leisure to fully understand the hardships that ancient and medieval man faced. This experience of chaos, short life spans, and pestilence is what molded ancient and medieval faiths. We are quick to mock the superstitions and theologies of medieval Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, but forget the hardships and chaos that Christians, Jews, and Muslims faced. It seemed clear to men in those eras that the savage impulses of man could only be reined in by a moral code that had the backing of a Divine Force.

And not only this, but men need a belief system that balances hardships with hope, provides solace in anguish, ennobles his existence with divine poetry (prayers) and art, and provides some defense against the frightening brevity of life by promising an eternal life. It does not matter whether these things are "true" or not. This is the mistake that all atheists make. What a shallow knowledge of human nature do atheists have!

The average man does not want truth; he wants certainty and security. Without religion, life for most simple people becomes a terrifying and coldly impersonal cycle of creation and destruction, devoid of all meaning. There is nothing more tender and inspiring that the devotion and sincerity of medieval man, as he went about the honest pursuit of his faith.

Rituals and symbols are important aspects of religion: prayer, sacraments, and ceremonies, because they bind together the group, bring believers into comforting contact with others, charm the senses with magic and ritual, and instruct the young on proper conduct and morals. What could be more socially useful? We have paid a high price for secularism. And I question the idea of "progress" and "reason" which can prove whatever our impulses desire. Reason is frail: it can be used to prove anything suggested by our passions. And has anyone ever been convinced by logic? The whole man, the complete man, needs both faith and reason bound together in his soul.

Of course one can find incredibilities and absurdities in religions. But the people cry out for them. If atheists take away from people their cherished beliefs, they will simply adopt more and greater superstitions in their place. Atheism can only destroy; it cannot build. And atheists find it difficult to understand why people will never listen to them for long. The reason is that they can provide no consolation for the average person's life. In place of a comforting ritual, the atheist substitutes a cold, analytical sterility.
Atheism has no answer to the mysteries of life, except despair and sterile "knowledge".

No moral code will ever be fully accepted by people unless it is backed up by the force of some "God". Hammurabi, Lycurgus, Numa Pompilius, Mohammed, Moses, and the early Church fathers all instinctively understood this. The atheist, naive as he is, wants to keep the morality and throw out the theology. But this never works. Because it is the theology that causes the lessons to really sink into the people's souls. It is easy to mock theology, but the atheist fails to realize the comfort and solace that theology brings to people in parts of the world wracked by violence, disease, and penury. People need the terrors of hell dangled over their heads, if they are to behave and act in a socially responsible way. Atheism turns man into beasts.

Of course, we can always point out that great cruelties and violence has been done in the name of religion: the Inquisition, the crusades against the Albigensians and Cathars, the persecution of scientists by the Church, the maltreatment of Indians in the New World. All this is true. But without religion, the violence would have been even worse. Man's instincts for violence and sex are very, very strong, and without some moral code holding it in check, anarchy would come about.

This is the very definition of the blue pill.

I sort of hate to agree with this QC, since you spent awhile outlining your thoughts, and I don't entirely disagree with you in many respects.

But if you're arguing that religion provides people the delusion they need from the harsh realities of life, then what else can one call it?

Also, the notion of God may be useful for inward or spiritual travels, but that's it. It can't establish any kind of meaningful morality or model of the physical universe. The greatest failing of the church over the centuries has been a lack of separation between spiritual/moral/scientific, God has been invoked to provide for all three, when in reality it's perhaps only suited to one.

__________________

Point well taken, W. But I fail to see how my explaining the influence of religion in history is somehow "blue pill". I was trying to give an explanation for the longevity and influence of religion, that's all. My intention was to provide a rational explanation for why religions have been so enduring, and so influential, in history.
I think it comes down to human psychology. Religion has been a main motivation behind the great creations of art, science, literature, architecture, and conquest. It's also been behind many evil, base, cruel, and terrible things. But those two Janus-faces are part of the human experience, warts and all.

My own view of history is that I think it shows that humans are often motivated by unconscious, irrational desires.
Religions exist because they serve a specific need that man has to try to find meaning and purpose in the universe. A rational scholar will look at man for how he is, not for how he "ought" to be.

In many ways it also can be viewed as a personality trait. Some people have religious temperaments, some do not. Although I'm not a practicing religious person, I enjoy studying about them. And I do think that there is a lot to learn there. In many parts of the world, religion plays a major part of people's lives. It doesn't much in the US, western Europe, or Japan, but it does elsewhere.

Maybe the great philosopher Blaise Pascal had a good point when he postulated what has been called "Pascal's Wager". (Pascal was a brilliant mathematician who underwent some sort of crisis and became intensely religious in his later years).

"Pascal's Wager" says this: we're never going to know whether there is a supreme divine force in the universe, or not. So, since we can never know, we're better off believing that there is such a supreme force. Why? Because believing will make us happier, more confident, more stable, and secure, than not believing. Basically, it's a cost-benefit analysis of why belief is important.
And, according to Pascal, belief wins.

Post: #157

^^^ "Pascal's Wager" is like going to a casino, walking up to the roulette wheel, and putting a chip on both the Red and Black.

thus, religion is reduced to an insurance policy

Post: #158

A United States Marine was attending some college courses between assignments. He had completed missions in Iraq and Afghanistan . One of the courses had a professor who was a vowed atheist and a member of the ACLU.
One day the professor shocked the class when he came in. He looked to the ceiling and flatly stated, 'God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you exactly 15 minutes.'
The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin drop. Ten minutes went by and the professor proclaimed, 'Here I am God. I'm still waiting.' It got down to the last couple of minutes when the Marine got out of his Chair, went up to the professor, and cold-cocked him; knocking him off the plat form! . The professor was out cold.
The Marine went back to his seat and sat there, silently. The other students were shocked and stunned and sat there looking on in silence. The professor eventually came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the Marine and asked, 'What the hell is the matter with you? Why did you do that?' The Marine calmly replied, 'God was too busy today protecting America's soldiers who are protecting your right to say stupid shit and act like an asshole. So, He sent me.'

Marines=1
Atheists=0


   

Post: #159

(09-05-2013 09:14 PM)jaakkeli Wrote:  

(09-05-2013 08:31 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Religion is a social construct designed to keep the natural instincts of both male and female humans in check, thereby allowing a safe, sane, growing and lasting society.

The further a society gets from the basic religious tenets, the closer it is to falling.

Yes, that's why the most atheistic societies like Sweden and Czechia are known to be such dangerous, brutal hellholes of primal human savagery while the most religious societies like Afghanistan and Somalia are known for safety, sanity and stability.

If it's the usual conservative whining about how those liberal European societies are doomed, doomed, DOOOOOOOMED to fall, well, I'm not seeing it and if it's something that's supposed to happen after a really long time why would I care? I'm not going to be alive then and for those years that I exist I'd rather live in a hedonistic society.

Speaking of Sweden, and Europe overall, I hear the women are feminists to the extreme and the unchecked immigration will soon be your downfall. Enjoy the ride.

As I said earlier, and you snipped out of my post in your response, I am not religious but I do understand why they were formed.

As a method to control the unwashed populace.

It seems the decline in church attendance in the US mirrors the rise in feminism.

Coincidence? I think not.

The places I see mentioned most often where one may actually find a marriageable woman in the US is generally the South and the Upper Midwest. Places where church attendance is the highest.

Coincidence? I think not.

For me it's not about religion or God for that matter. It is about what religion teaches and expects about relationships and male/female relations.

Post: #160

(09-05-2013 10:25 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  [...]

in Hell's yearbook, you forgot a pic of this guy:




Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.

Thomas Jefferson

Post: #161

   

Post: #162

Religion is for less intelligent people and women.

It is foolish to think the great masses can use their atheist found freedom for nothing but wild hedonism which is exactly what we see today. Women and less intelligent people NEED rules.

Post: #163

(09-05-2013 10:41 PM)scandibro Wrote:  Religion is for less intelligent people and women.

It is foolish to think the great masses can use their atheist found freedom for nothing but wild hedonism which is exactly what we see today. Women and less intelligent people NEED rules.

Atheist are the smartest people.



   




   

Post: #164

Moderate post-Enlightenment Christianity produced the most innovative, most prosperous, most free, and fastest growing societies in the world. This was the civilization of Max Weber's Protestant Ethic. It brought us liberal democracy and the industrial revolution.

It also produced the greatest efflorescence of philosophy, art, and literature since at least classical Greece, and in reality far surpassing anything from antiquity.

Pre-Enlightenment Christianity and all other religious traditions in world history presided over low growth to stagnant societies.

Post-Christian Europe and increasingly post-Christian America seem to be slipping once again into stagnation. It also seems that the atheist and agnostic West has seen a descent into cultural decadence.

If there was a way to resurrect the worldly and practical-minded, yet pious and ethical Christianity of Victorian England and 19th century America, we would all be better off.

Post: #165

(09-05-2013 10:32 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Speaking of Sweden, and Europe overall, I hear the women are feminists to the extreme and the unchecked immigration will soon be your downfall.

Who cares, I'll be dead when that happens.

Quote:The places I see mentioned most often where one may actually find a marriageable woman

Marriageable women are no fun and religions that promote marriageability can go ruin some other place than where I'm living.

Seriously what is this forum, the fucking Taliban convention or what?

Post: #166

(09-05-2013 10:41 PM)scandibro Wrote:  It is foolish to think the great masses can use their atheist found freedom for nothing but wild hedonism which is exactly what we see today. Women and less intelligent people NEED rules.

Why? I say let's have more fun.

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with wild hedonism, I say let's have all the wild hedonism we can before we die.

Of course in reality atheism isn't really doing as much good as the religious loonies claim it is and the average atheist acts barely different from the average Christian, but if atheism actually did effectively promote wild hedonism and all that would be a really fucking big plus.

Post: #167

(09-05-2013 10:25 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  A United States Marine was attending some college courses between assignments. He had completed missions in Iraq and Afghanistan . One of the courses had a professor who was a vowed atheist and a member of the ACLU.
One day the professor shocked the class when he came in. He looked to the ceiling and flatly stated, 'God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you exactly 15 minutes.'
The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin drop. Ten minutes went by and the professor proclaimed, 'Here I am God. I'm still waiting.' It got down to the last couple of minutes when the Marine got out of his Chair, went up to the professor, and cold-cocked him; knocking him off the plat form! . The professor was out cold.
The Marine went back to his seat and sat there, silently. The other students were shocked and stunned and sat there looking on in silence. The professor eventually came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the Marine and asked, 'What the hell is the matter with you? Why did you do that?' The Marine calmly replied, 'God was too busy today protecting America's soldiers who are protecting your right to say stupid shit and act like an asshole. So, He sent me.'

Marines=1
Atheists=0

Any one can make up a BS story, especially Joe Schmoe living off Social Security or unemployment. god protected so many soldiers that more than 5,800 have died. So many stories come up like that and turn out to be false, including one about baylor university and another about a false cop car.

LOL, there was one about a private flying a plane without its engine because "god" helped him and told the private that physics weren't needed with faith.

(09-05-2013 10:52 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  Moderate post-Enlightenment Christianity produced the most innovative, most prosperous, most free, and fastest growing societies in the world. This was the civilization of Max Weber's Protestant Ethic. It brought us liberal democracy and the industrial revolution.

It also produced the greatest efflorescence of philosophy, art, and literature since at least classical Greece, and in reality far surpassing anything from antiquity.

Pre-Enlightenment Christianity and all other religious traditions in world history presided over low growth to stagnant societies.

Post-Christian Europe and increasingly post-Christian America seem to be slipping once again into stagnation. It also seems that the atheist and agnostic West has seen a descent into cultural decadence.

If there was a way to resurrect the worldly and practical-minded, yet pious and ethical Christianity of Victorian England and 19th century America, we would all be better off.

Philosophy, lit, and the arts have done nothing for the world. Hard science does.

Post: #168

^^^^Example of someone who doesn't see the big picture^^^^

*Edit-Was referring to the dude from Finland

Post: #169

Hard science is simply trying to figure out what God has created. Very unoriginal and beta. Atheists denounce God cause they're still unable to explain everything.

God=1,000,000,000,000
Atheists=0

Post: #170

(09-05-2013 10:52 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  It also produced the greatest efflorescence of philosophy, art, and literature since at least classical Greece, and in reality far surpassing anything from antiquity.

Philosophy is rubbish, art is pretentious and literature is boring.

Quote:If there was a way to resurrect the worldly and practical-minded, yet pious and ethical Christianity of Victorian England and 19th century America, we would all be better off.

But bored out of our fucking minds.

Post: #171

(09-05-2013 11:20 PM)jaakkeli Wrote:  Philosophy is rubbish, art is pretentious and literature is boring.



But bored out of our fucking minds.

Lol.


   

Post: #172

(09-05-2013 09:14 PM)jaakkeli Wrote:  

(09-05-2013 08:31 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Religion is a social construct designed to keep the natural instincts of both male and female humans in check, thereby allowing a safe, sane, growing and lasting society.

The further a society gets from the basic religious tenets, the closer it is to falling.

Yes, that's why the most atheistic societies like Sweden and Czechia are known to be such dangerous, brutal hellholes of primal human savagery while the most religious societies like Afghanistan and Somalia are known for safety, sanity and stability.

If it's the usual conservative whining about how those liberal European societies are doomed, doomed, DOOOOOOOMED to fall, well, I'm not seeing it and if it's something that's supposed to happen after a really long time why would I care? I'm not going to be alive then and for those years that I exist I'd rather live in a hedonistic society.

Did you know that communism is essentially atheist?

Wald

Post: #173

(09-05-2013 11:20 PM)jaakkeli Wrote:  

(09-05-2013 10:52 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  It also produced the greatest efflorescence of philosophy, art, and literature since at least classical Greece, and in reality far surpassing anything from antiquity.

Philosophy is rubbish, art is pretentious and literature is boring.

Hedonism is a philosophy.

Without art there'd be no porn.

Without literature this forum wouldn't exist.

Check.

Post: #174

Nature has two goals for humans: survivability and reproduction. Religious people have more children than atheists (many studies have been done on this). From the standpoint of nature, religion is an evolutionary benefit that does a better job at continuing the human species. Whether you believe or not, whether you think religion is rational or not, it has helped perpetuate the human race. Many of us exist today due to religion's cultural pressure on causing your grandparents or parents to marry and procreate.

If I was given a kingdom to rule, I would promote religion to ensure it's longevity.

Post: #175

[quote='Roosh' pid='528094' dateline='1378455579']
Nature has two goals for humans: survivability and reproduction. Religious people have more children than atheists (many studies have been done on this)
So far
. From the standpoint of nature, religion is an evolutionary benefit that does a better job at continuing the human species. Whether you believe or not, whether you think religion is rational or not, it has helped perpetuate the human race.

It has also helped to execute a lot of the human race

Many of us exist today due to religion's cultural pressure on causing your grandparents or parents to marry and procreate.

If I was given a kingdom to rule, I would promote religion to ensure it's longevity.

I think feminists would do the selfish thing as well to preserve their power