Post: #76

Raising the minimum wage would just take more from the middle class and in the end give it to the rich.

Most anytime the govt. gets involved in economics it takes from the middle class and gives to the rich. The rich owns the govt., the rich have the means to game the system. Raise taxes, the rich just raise the price of their goods. Same would happen if you raise minimum wage. Same with Obamacare, it will only hurt the middle class.

It is why in socialist/communist countries you have a small wealthy class and everyone else is equally miserable and poor.

Post: #77

Paul Krugman is a real economist, whose work and predictions in this crisis have largely proven to be right.

The right-wing fantasy that we're going to experience hyper-inflation due to QE has proven wrong again and again, yet they keep making that claim. Krugman's conceptual understanding of our economy has been right while every right-winger has been predicting Obama would turn us into the Weimar Republic any moment now, without it ever happening, and without them ever reassessing their failed predictions.

Post: #78

(08-29-2013 12:04 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

Quote:There you go Laila..."They work on their feet all day". So they should make $31,000 a year with no skills or credentials because they stand while flipping burgers.

I feel people with no skills or education(regular people) deserve to make at the very least enough money to afford food, shelter and clothing.

The problem is wages are dictated by corporations. Cost of goods and services are controlled by corporations. On paper it may look like a self-regulating economy but at the highest levels there's unspoken collusion and price-fixing. It's modern day slavery.

Wages are, and should be, controlled by supply and demand.

If you want to make $15 to 20/hour working at MickyD's move to North Dakota.

They're paying it there as it's the only way they can get people.

Post: #79

(08-29-2013 02:03 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  Paul Krugman is a real economist, whose work and predictions in this crisis have largely proven to be right.

The right-wing fantasy that we're going to experience hyper-inflation due to QE has proven wrong again and again, yet they keep making that claim. Krugman's conceptual understanding of our economy has been right while every right-winger has been predicting Obama would turn us into the Weimar Republic any moment now, without it ever happening, and without them ever reassessing their failed predictions.

QE has drowned us in debt. If for some reason the bankers buying up our bonds decide to never raise interest rates or get a return on their investments, then magically everything will work out.

But as we are seeing in Europe the bankers want a return on their investment and are able to force it by the govt. taking more and more from the middle class.

Post: #80

(08-29-2013 01:54 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  Good point, scorpion. Ms. Davis is spending money on cable TV and taxi rides though, which diminishes my sympathy. That said, I can't take credit for my frugal nature. That was a value instilled in me by my parents. If I was raised differently (or not raised at all), perhaps I'd be wasting money that I could ill afford to. Or maybe I wouldn't.

Depends on how much agency/responsibility you want to assign to the individual.

Cable TV is an outrageous expense? She lives in NYC.

What is she supposed to do at night, go home and stare at the wall for a few hours? Sit outside on her non-existent porch and look at the stars that are totally drowned out by the light pollution of the city? Go out to a bar with her 1 year old child?

Hell, if we're being real, cable TV is the only reason this country didn't start rioting in the streets years ago. The modern opiate of the masses. You're damned right she pays that cable bill, she and every other poor person in the country. It's one of the few pleasures they can afford.

Post: #81

(08-29-2013 02:06 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 01:54 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  Good point, scorpion. Ms. Davis is spending money on cable TV and taxi rides though, which diminishes my sympathy. That said, I can't take credit for my frugal nature. That was a value instilled in me by my parents. If I was raised differently (or not raised at all), perhaps I'd be wasting money that I could ill afford to. Or maybe I wouldn't.

Depends on how much agency/responsibility you want to assign to the individual.

Cable TV is an outrageous expense? She lives in NYC.

What is she supposed to do at night, go home and stare at the wall for a few hours? Sit outside on her non-existent porch and look at the stars that are totally drowned out by the light pollution of the city? Go out to a bar with her 1 year old child?

Hell, if we're being real, cable TV is the only reason this country didn't start rioting in the streets years ago. The modern opiate of the masses. You're damned right she pays that cable bill, she and every other poor person in the country. It's one of the few pleasures they can afford.

She could read a book?
You can check them out for free at the library.

Post: #82

(08-29-2013 02:02 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  Raising the minimum wage would just take more from the middle class and in the end give it to the rich.

Your defeatist attitude isn't supported by the evidence in instances of actual raises to the minimum wage.

Not surprisingly, raising the minimum wage helps the poor, because they have more money.

Not sure what your argument is really.

Post: #83

(08-29-2013 02:08 AM)Gopher Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 02:06 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 01:54 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  Good point, scorpion. Ms. Davis is spending money on cable TV and taxi rides though, which diminishes my sympathy. That said, I can't take credit for my frugal nature. That was a value instilled in me by my parents. If I was raised differently (or not raised at all), perhaps I'd be wasting money that I could ill afford to. Or maybe I wouldn't.

Depends on how much agency/responsibility you want to assign to the individual.

Cable TV is an outrageous expense? She lives in NYC.

What is she supposed to do at night, go home and stare at the wall for a few hours? Sit outside on her non-existent porch and look at the stars that are totally drowned out by the light pollution of the city? Go out to a bar with her 1 year old child?

Hell, if we're being real, cable TV is the only reason this country didn't start rioting in the streets years ago. The modern opiate of the masses. You're damned right she pays that cable bill, she and every other poor person in the country. It's one of the few pleasures they can afford.

She could read a book?
You can check them out for free at the library.

The Amish don't seem to miss cable TV....

Post: #84

(08-29-2013 02:06 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  QE has drowned us in debt. If for some reason the bankers buying up our bonds decide to never raise interest rates or get a return on their investments, then magically everything will work out.

But as we are seeing in Europe the bankers want a return on their investment and are able to force it by the govt. taking more and more from the middle class.

Controlling our own currency, we do not have to worry about a Greece-style spike in our interest rates.

This is the reason why Britain, Japan, and the U.S. all have incredibly low interest rates. We can simply always pay back our debts because we control our own currency. Unlike Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Italy. You are worrying about a problem that is not applicable to us.

Your imaginary bond vigilantes have been predicted ever since Obama was elected. They have not materialized. Our bonds are still being bought up as quick as we can sell them.

Your understanding of how things work is off base.

Post: #85

(08-29-2013 02:05 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 12:04 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

Quote:There you go Laila..."They work on their feet all day". So they should make $31,000 a year with no skills or credentials because they stand while flipping burgers.

I feel people with no skills or education(regular people) deserve to make at the very least enough money to afford food, shelter and clothing.

The problem is wages are dictated by corporations. Cost of goods and services are controlled by corporations. On paper it may look like a self-regulating economy but at the highest levels there's unspoken collusion and price-fixing. It's modern day slavery.

Wages are, and should be, controlled by supply and demand.

I agree. The government shouldn't be in the business of fixing prices, it should make it so that businesses can't escape the rules of supply and demand by outsourcing labor. If it did this, the supply of unskilled labor would dwindle, and the demand for it would skyrocket, along with the market price.

Post: #86

I also have no sympathy for including cable TV and taxi rides in basic living expenses.That doesn't mean that she shouldn't have those things, but it seems overly indulgent for someone in such dire financial straits. As Gopher said, books are free, and internet can be found for free in many places too.

Post: #87

(08-29-2013 02:11 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 02:02 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  Raising the minimum wage would just take more from the middle class and in the end give it to the rich.

Your defeatist attitude isn't supported by the evidence in instances of actual raises to the minimum wage.

Not surprisingly, raising the minimum wage helps the poor, because they have more money.

Not sure what your argument is really.

Actually every time they have raised the minimum wage in the USA it has only increased the prices of goods in equal so in the end the poor end up in the same situation (hey, I make $15 an hour but a loaf of bread is now $5) and the middle class end up poorer and the rich are unaffected.

Post: #88

Yes, cable and taxis are an outrageous expense for someone making 150 a week. Clearly a subjective matter though, so we should agree to disagree.

Post: #89

I made $14.60 in Australia (roughly the minimum wage) working at KFC as an 18 year old, some older workers made $20 an hour. Despite the increased cost of the "meals" here accounting for the fast food workers higher wages, people in Australia still eat shitloads of fast food and we are still pretty close to America in terms of obesity rates. So I wouldn't bet on a decline in obesity following the raising of fast food workers wages.

That said, $7.50 is a pathetically low minimum wage. 15 year old's here get paid more than that.

Post: #90

(08-29-2013 02:14 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  Actually every time they have raised the minimum wage in the USA it has only increased the prices of goods in equal so in the end the poor end up in the same situation (hey, I make $15 an hour but a loaf of bread is now $5) and the middle class end up poorer and the rich are unaffected.

That is not true.

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publicatio...013-02.pdf

Actual research shows that: "a 10 percent increase in
the minimum wage increases prices by roughly 0.7 percent."

Further it acts as economic stimulus, since the poor can now spend more.

Read the report.

Post: #91

(08-29-2013 02:17 AM)P Dog Wrote:  I made $14.61 in Australia (roughly the minimum wage) working at KFC as an 18 year old. Despite the increased cost of the "meals" here accounting for the fast food workers higher wages, people in Australia still eat shitloads of fast food and we are still pretty close to America in terms of obesity rates. So I wouldn't bet on a decline in obesity following the raising of fast food workers wages.

That said, $7.50 is a pathetically low minimum wage. 15 year old's here get paid more than that.

It isn't pathetically low for a 15 year old in the rural Midwest. So when the federal govt. forces these lower cost of living areas to raise their pay it will devastate their local economies.

Post: #92

(08-29-2013 02:17 AM)P Dog Wrote:  I made $14.61 in Australia (roughly the minimum wage) working at KFC as an 18 year old. Despite the increased cost of the "meals" here accounting for the fast food workers higher wages, people in Australia still eat shitloads of fast food and we are still pretty close to America in terms of obesity rates. So I wouldn't bet on a decline in obesity following the raising of fast food workers wages.

That said, $7.50 is a pathetically low minimum wage. 15 year old's here get paid more than that.

American workers have been psychologically beat down to accept any crap they can manage.

Cherish living in a real first-world country.

Post: #93

(08-29-2013 02:08 AM)Gopher Wrote:  She could read a book?
You can check them out for free at the library.

You can continue to live in a fantasy world, where poor people go to the library, self-educate and raise themselves and their families out of poverty en masse.

I'll be over here in reality, where they watch 6 hours of television a day, chain smoke cigarettes and take out usurious payday loans on the regular.

In other words: if this woman was the type to read a book for fun, she wouldn't be in the situation she's in now.

Poor people are generally poor due to low IQs that result in short-term time orientation that prevents them from undertaking the sort of long-term planning required to rise out of poverty.

Post: #94

(08-29-2013 02:17 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 02:14 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  Actually every time they have raised the minimum wage in the USA it has only increased the prices of goods in equal so in the end the poor end up in the same situation (hey, I make $15 an hour but a loaf of bread is now $5) and the middle class end up poorer and the rich are unaffected.

That is not true.

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publicatio...013-02.pdf

Actual research shows that: "a 10 percent increase in
the minimum wage increases prices by roughly 0.7 percent."

Further it acts as economic stimulus, since the poor can now spend more.

Read the report.

I've seen study after study that refutes this.

It only makes sense. Why would those who own things not charge more when their labor prices go up? They are not just going to eat the bill for shits and giggles, they own their businesses to make money.

So in the end the poor get paid more, the rich charge more for goods and services, and the middle class gets stuck with the bill (no increase in pay, higher prices).

Thus we keep seeing the poverty rate go up in the USA, the number of people on welfare go up, and the national debt at absurd levels.

Post: #95

(08-29-2013 02:20 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 02:08 AM)Gopher Wrote:  She could read a book?
You can check them out for free at the library.

You can continue to live in a fantasy world, where poor people go to the library, self-educate and raise themselves and their families out of poverty en masse.

I'll be over here in reality, where they watch 6 hours of television a day, chain smoke cigarettes and take out usurious payday loans on the regular.

In other words: if this woman was the type to read a book for fun, she wouldn't be in the situation she's in now.

Poor people are generally poor due to low IQs that result in short-term time orientation that prevents them from undertaking the sort of long-term planning required to rise out of poverty.

True. You can easily make the same statement about game. Am I entitled to judge Ms. Davis for what I perceive as a poor allocation of funds? Probably not. I don't judge my male friends that refuse to accept basic red pill tenets.

But do I owe her anything?

Post: #96

(08-29-2013 02:20 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  I've seen study after study that refutes this.

I believe you've heard people on Fox News saying that. It's a common misconception. Actual studies looking at actual instances of increases in the minimum wage have not found this to be true.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/02...cts/192692

Post: #97

(08-29-2013 03:10 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 02:20 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  I've seen study after study that refutes this.

I believe you've heard people on Fox News saying that. It's a common misconception. Actual studies looking at actual instances of increases in the minimum wage have not found this to be true.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/02...cts/192692

Wall Street Journal, etc.

Raising the minimum wage will do what all socialist policies do...

Hurt the middle class.

Post: #98

"Better redistribution of wealth"

It's called communism. It doesn't work.

Post: #99

What none of you understand is that the economy is purely theoretical. There's hundreds of theories and each one can make a compelling argument; however it's irrelevant and nothing but collegiate textbook fodder.

There are trillions of dollars just sitting there as "buffer" that will never be touched. No book will tell you that, but it should be obvious given that no matter what there's always money for war, new prisons, FEMA, welfare, etc.

Post: #100

(08-29-2013 03:55 AM)la_mode Wrote:  What none of you understand is that the economy is purely theoretical. There's hundreds of theories and each one can make a compelling argument; however it's irrelevant and nothing but collegiate textbook fodder.

There are trillions of dollars just sitting there as "buffer" that will never be touched. No book will tell you that, but it should be obvious given that no matter what there's always money for war, new prisons, FEMA, welfare, etc.

There isn't so much "money" for these things, as much as the federal govt. is borrowing 41 cents for every dollar they receive in tax revenue.

That cannot continue forever.