Post: #26

Post: #27

(07-29-2013 09:38 PM)cardguy Wrote:  This is a serious question. Not just some kind of moan or rant.

I would be interested to know if others have ever come across a couple of women having a deep intellectual conversation? I have literally never come across this. But then again - I haven't spent nearly as much time around women as others. Which is why I am genuinely curious.

So for those with more experience. Do women ever kick back and have intellectual conversations with their female friends? Have you actually witnessed this?

Or is it more the case that women have intellectual conversations - but only when chatting to a guy? I find this to be the case, with me - but then I try and steer most conversations in this direction since I am an aspie nerd.

No, they don't. The few female analytics co-workers I've met almost all talk chick stuff.

And in this group of quant girls, I've met like 2 that didn't talk about chick stuff with me; both ended up in top banks, Goldman and Lazard. Trust me, those girls were aspie as fuck.

Quoting myself here.

cibo Wrote:Best advice, don't try to have intellectual debates with girls.

They're bad enough with guys, double that with girls since they're completely irrational/emotional when debating. Also having a logical discussion with a girl I'm trying to fuck is a sure fire way to dry that snatch.

Post: #28

I've been exposed to quite a few niche circles, and so yeah, I've met some very engaging conversationalists and very intellectually astute women. Do women talk to each other. Yeah, they do, I remember listening to the most astounding conversation between two Asian Australian women.

I've even known some American women who are very good conversationalists. I know a guy who married an Indonesian lady and they talk about obscure greek philosophers.

I certainly don't worship "intellectualisation", which is often a kind of mental masturbation of abstraction and I do think women are more practical and immediate than men; which I largely see as a good thing.

Post: #29

Probably at least 9/10 girls in our part of the world qualify as 'boring'; I've had some good conversations with women, but nothing groundbreaking, nothing that left me floored.

I have no doubt that when they get together they don't tend to have them either. I've known girls with perfect GPAs, full-rides to top schools and majors in the hard sciences that regurgitate the same crap about Kim Kardashian and the such-and-suches wedding that most of the rest of them do.

- Limited Curiosity (How many women do you know, from North America and Western Europe, that are learning to play a musical instrument or learning a second language for shits, reading anything other than the latest pap that Oprah is pushing or has a taste in movies that veers outside of formulaic romcoms, Oscar-bait prestige pics and summer blockbusters? How many women do you know that go and do something because they want to do it for the experience and not because someone told them that they should do it or to take pictures for her FaceBook page? Could a woman do the female equivalent of what Roosh did without reading about it or hearing about it from a celebrity first?)

- Child-like gullibility (If you know how to talk to women and how they think, you can make them believe almost anything. Today I went shopping and I saw one of those magazines that's aimed at bored wives; one of the headlines was, I shit you not, 'Lose weight - BY EATING ICE CREAM!', though on the real, this is the reason that game works.

The exact same chat,
repeated ad nauseum,
it's the player's way.)

- Generic Interests (Apple, Celebrities, Shoes, Clothes, Fashion, Baking, TV, ..., ..., .... My own interests, which are hardly exceptional and I am never told I am special for having them, include; reading classic literature, hiking, working out, hollering at girls in situations they least expect it, writing and cooking)

- Average Intelligence (Numerous studies have shown that while men are smarter than women, we're also dumber; most of them show substantially more men up int he high-IQ range, with maybe 75% of women in the 97-103 range)

- Adherence to a prefabricated 'approved' group model (Raise your hand if you have banged more than ten girls who majored in the same thing at school (*Psychology*), like the same TV shows (*Friends, Mad Men, SatC*), speak the same way (*Vocal fry and excessive 'like'*) and dress the same way (*Yoga pants, sneakers, streaked hair, long-sleeve t-shirts*)...it is IMPORTANT for every member of the female friendship circle of envy, backstabbing and mistrust trust to think and look at every possible situation and thing the exact same way, meanwhile I diverge greatly philosophically, intellectually and emotionally in my process than all of my friends)

- Emotion-based reasoning (We know that nothing is more important to a woman than how she feels at this exact point in time. Emotions are well and good, but as the basis for your thought process? This right here is why sometimes asking a woman a simple question that you yourself would answer with brevity and insight can make you feel like a therapist. It's baffling how many conversations I've had with women, probably in the thousands, that started in one place and eventually meandered to how she 'feels' about that or something else; talking to a woman for ten minutes and having her not talk about how she feels is like the 3-minute mile)


And you want to know the real funny part? Of the maybe 10% of women that aren't boring, probably half of them are maladroit or neurotic to high hell. It goes without saying, that when talking to the average 18-24 year old girl I meet in the day-to-day, I speak slower than normal (not for the sole purpose of speaking down to them; I like to speak clearly and eloquently to women) and avoid big words and deep or mundane topics. I have given up screening for intelligence, insight or interesting conversation with women; women are there to laugh with, have fun with, make love to and have adventures with, not to provide you with intellectual stimulation. Only two of the girls I've ever banged (out of close to 100) were in any way interesting, and nothing about their views or their conversation was more interesting to me than the physical parts of the whole thing.

Also I don't think it's like a 'Why aren't women funny? They never had to be' type of thing either, I think it's innate.

Post: #30

(07-29-2013 11:14 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  http://www.heretical.com/miscella/onwomen.html

Here's a great one by Byron appreciating what women do for most of us.

“The very first
Of human life must spring from woman’s breast,
Your first small words are taught you from her lips,
Your first tears quench’d by her, and your last sighs
Too often breathed out in a woman’s hearing,
When men have shrunk from the ignoble care
Of watching the last hour of him who led them.”

All through history, who has done the largest share of taking care of the penniless, the diseased, the smelly dying with no hope, the helpless infants? Who have mostly been the nurses at both ends of life?

My father spent the last four years of his life paralyzed in a veteran's hospital in a small town. When I went to his funeral, several of the female nurses who had taken care of him, washed his paralyzed old body daily, fed him through a tube, kept him comfortable in a abjectly barren place in life-- came to his funeral. There was no extra pay, I'm sure he didn't ask them to. You could see how sad they were. They knew nothing of his youthful charm and energy, all they had ever met was a crippled shell of a man. But they still cared. There are some male nurses, but when it comes to abject misery. most of the simple tedious care is done by women.

Yeah, men are a little smarter at the high end of the curve, and do all the great inventions. But all of us smart-ass-120-140 IQ guys, probably don't relieve as much suffering in our whole lives as one 105 IQ nurse.
Not even close.

So don't be ungrateful.

You missed a nuance of the poem. The key to the poem is in the last two lines:

When men have shrunk from the ignoble care
Of watching the last hour of him who led them.”

The poem is not only about how women are there at the start and end of our lives, and that we should appreciate women for this, but instead to note how men do not pay attention to the other men in their lives that truly mattered - the men who ordered them into battle, the men who taught them valuable skills, the men who decided how their political life would pan out. These are the men who matter the most to other men's lives, and yet us men rarely pay any respects to the greats who shaped everything about us.

That's why Schopenhauer started his essay on women with this poem, because it sums up his general feelings about the sexes. Men are weak, they live their lives out in dedication to women, and yet it is men who are the most valuable part of the species.

Post: #31

(07-29-2013 10:01 PM)cardguy Wrote:  I mentally ditched a close friend when he challenged my 'red pill' views with the statement - "That's bullshit! The most interesting people I know are women..."

Next.

Yeah anytime you hear that it's almost guaranteed the guy is boring, or has little understanding of women, so any glimpse "into their world" is interesting for him.

That's why the lone guy enjoying sitting at the table during "girl talk" is usually gay, or at least, lacking masculinity.

Post: #32

(07-29-2013 11:44 PM)Samseau Wrote:  it is men who are the most valuable part of the species.

I interpreted it differently ,don't know if we're both right.
I though Byron was saying women do most of the comforting, but men aren't around when women are miserable and dying.

As far as men being the most important, doesn't it seem like a bit of an existential absurdity to say men are most important since you can 't have one without the other? -- since the very existence of men literally depends on women? Women are required to manufacture men, so it seems you need both, since there are practically no women geniuses.

Post: #33

This thread reminded me of this scene

Post: #34

(07-29-2013 10:19 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Most guys don't believe me when I tell them I've never had an interesting conversation with a woman. I've had fun conversations, I've had sexual conversations, I've had exciting conversations, but in terms of being interesting in a way that intellectually stimulates me... nope, not once.

I've dated and banged my way through many Ivy League educated girls too: Princeton, NYU, Harvard, MIT, Columbia (is this Ivy? whatever) - none of these girls knew a damn thing. At best they could recite perfectly the shit their professors told them but nothing on their own that was original or thought provoking.

I also majored in Philosophy during my undergrad, and I met many of the philosophy girls - most of them totally retarded - and I even went to a Dartmouth philosophy conference. The only girls who presented there wrote about feminist topics, and everything they said they said well, but ultimately had little value, substance, or intellectual rigor.

So, believe me, I have tried, I have tried so fucking hard to find that one special intelligent snowflake to complete me and dance the intellectual dance as we discuss Kant, Socrates, the possibilities of a perfect government, or the ideal lives men and women should have in between rigorous sex sessions... but I have failed and found nothing.

Part of the problem is being far more intelligent than average, but the other problem is that women just aren't capable of original thinking. Even my friends with lower IQ's but are male usually spit interesting comments and insights on the regular that beat even the smartest of females I've known.

Interesting woman is an oxymoron.

This.

I've had similar experiences, and the closest has been with some female Masters/PHD's that could tell me stuff about their fields I didn't know. However, outside of their specialization, it used to be a shock to me just how lacking they were in general knowledge of the world.

And you can see they sometimes have this struggle between trying to uphold this image of the "intellectual liberated woman" and the more foundational female interests (i.e. apologizing in advance to me and hoping I won't think less of them, since they just HAVE to check gossip sites in between reading online news articles.)

The irony is that I wouldn't be judgmental of that as a Red Pill man, since it's just their nature, you're bound to be let down always wishing for a woman as, what I call, the "perfect complement" in terms of desires for learning, debate, and problem solving.

Also, it's funny to hear what women consider "interesting" about other women, as in, their threshold and rationale for using that term.

Most of the time it has nothing to do with original thinking, intelligence, or knowledge.

It's almost always based on feelings about experiences, i.e. "She once traveled to _____, she's so interesting!" "I was so interested when she told me she met _____ (celebrity)"

Obviously the men on this forum can appreciate great travel stories like few others, but it's obvious there's more to being interesting as a man than just that.

Finally, on the subject of learning for pleasure, one thing I think most men don't get, and even some guys who are good with girls sometime forget:

You have to accept that the vast majority of women will be less well read, less interested in the world, and most importantly, give you no credit or recognition for the knowledge you've acquired.

Post: #35

(07-29-2013 11:53 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(07-29-2013 11:44 PM)Samseau Wrote:  it is men who are the most valuable part of the species.

I interpreted it differently ,don't know if we're both right.
I though Byron was saying women do most of the comforting, but men aren't around when women are miserable and dying.

As far as men being the most important, doesn't it seem like a bit of an existential absurdity to say men are most important since you can 't have one without the other? -- since the very existence of men literally depends on women? Women are required to manufacture men, so it seems you need both, since there are practically no women geniuses.

Nope. From Schopenhauer's On Women:

Quote:They are the sexus sequior, the second sex in every respect, therefore their weaknesses should be spared, but to treat women with extreme reverence is ridiculous, and lowers us in their own eyes. When nature divided the human race into two parts, she did not cut it exactly through the middle! The difference between the positive and negative poles, according to polarity, is not merely qualitative but also quantitative. And it was in this light that the ancients and people of the East regarded woman; they recognised her true position better than we, with our old French ideas of gallantry and absurd veneration, that highest product of Christian–Teutonic stupidity. These ideas have only served to make them arrogant and imperious, to such an extent as to remind one at times of the holy apes in Benares, who, in the consciousness of their holiness and inviolability, think they can do anything and everything they please.

http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/onwomen.html

It is funny how Schopenhauer understood why it was wrong to pedestalize women.

Post: #36

I've run into intellectual women who want have an intellectual conversation about every single topic that hits their mind.

Honestly, I can't stand it when people do that, and I fancy myself somewhat of an intellectual guy myself. There's something to be said for just dumbing down and enjoying life sometimes. And sometimes women who haven't had an intellectual thought in their lives can be a lot of fun to be around.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #37

Only when they have specialized knowledge that they had to learn from cold hard experiences, in which case it is possible to have interesting conversations. And if you go outside of that, then it turns into vapidity again. By knowledge, I don't mean purely academic regurgitated knowledge like 95%+ of women out there, but real life "I had to learn this or die and I still live or die by this" type knowledge.

I have a co-worker who is extremely good at selling anything to anyone, and I have learned quite a bit about sales and how to sell to people from her. All the conversations that I've had with her about the art of selling and how to sell X to Y group of people or how to break into Y clique and what approaches should be used were quite interesting and I learned quite a lot. But if we talked about anything else, then it would quickly become boring. Same with another friend who is a professional gambler; I also learned quite a bit about professional gambling from her, but that was pretty much it in terms of interesting conversation.

So I agree with the idea that good conversation comes from necessity and it is mostly men that have to learn many interesting things from sheer necessity.

Post: #38

Quoting the controversial Vijay Prozak:

Quote:Let us take a moment to appreciate the beauty of woman. In her non-plasticized state, she is a nurturing antidote to the mania of man for accomplishment of abstract ideas. She does not deal in concepts of what might be, but in a practical bettering of what is; where a man looks to the horizon for his dreams, woman is busy examining what is in her hands and configuring it to be as pleasant as possible. When man comes to her in a state of duress, heartbroken at a failure of some small part of the dream and yet unable to cry, she is the one who empathic cries with him, if even silently, and sings him to sleep. If his dreams become too fantastic, she is the one to nod and point out that the house needs fixing. In its natural state, this is not sabotage (as it might be today), but a reminder that if he works outward from what he has, he might be happier and also clear his mind for the task he seeks.

Post: #39

In my entire life I can remember two girls who impressed me intellectually. One was polish and gave me a lecture about my name, which is the name of a physicist and she told me about his work. The other was russian and we had a discussion about russian literature. I actually felt dumb because she was more well-read than me. They were both quite attractive too so not uglies that had to make up for their lack of beauty.

Post: #40

I don't see much need for intellectual women. I have male friends for such conversation. Women are an escape from that. A way to loosen up, be light-hearted, have fun, revel in the world of emotion, maybe talk about some feelings-based topics you can't comfortably talk about with your boys. And that's not even getting to the physical pleasures that women offer. Frankly, I have pretty little interest in discussing Socrates with women. Even if such a woman is capable of a conversation, that's not why I want to be around them. I like being around them because they're fun, they smell good, look great, are nice to the touch, draw me into their world of laughter and emotion and if they are feminine and caring can make you feel really good. What more do you need from them?

There are highly intellectual women, but there is an inverse correlation in my observation between femininity and intellectualism(Think of that cartoon character Daria as a fictitious embodiment). Notice I said intellectualism, not intelligence. I do want a smart woman in the IQ sense because I'd like to have smart kids if I ever them, but I don't see intellectualism as a required trait at all. I think the more intellectual a woman is, the more masculinized her brain is and she will thus have many undesirable traits that go along with that such as lack of warmth.

Post: #41

I 99% agree with this. Other than with one female friend (who is very shy and almost aspie, though kind and pleasant), I don't think I've ever had an intellectual, stimulating conversation with a woman.

That said, I would never judge a woman for not being intellectual. I don't want her to be stupid, but I don't expect actual intellectual substance from her, either as a lover or as a friend. What infuriates me are women who are average (or stupid) but have an extremely high opinion of their intellect, which results in hamster galore, aggressiveness and rudeness. That one is often enough to make me not want to do anything with them even in just a sexual context.

So the critical thing is not a woman's intellect - women generally aren't thinkers and that's perfectly fine - it's her opinion of herself.

Post: #42

Girls prefer to talk about the outfit of the actress of the shitty girly show they watch instead of the meaning of life for example, it's like their mind only consists of gossip, makeup, sex and clothes. It's almost funny how naive they all are

Post: #43

Women is the receptive and men are the creative.

Again and again, American women are not all women.

Get out of the Anglosphere and you will find many more women with deep and inquiring minds, who have read Nietzsche and consider things very deeply. I once went to dinner in Germany at the house of three women with my friend. They talked philosophy very passionately all night, in German! This just aint going to happen in Australia or America or the UK or Canada!

Probably the most well read and intellectual person I have known, is a Polish lady friend.

I'm surprised that men here haven't met intellectual and not extremely well read women who couldn't really give a shit about shopping for shoes and are also hot as well!

I've been fortunate enough to meet many (I'd even venture to say I know and have met more well read and intellectual women than men, but that's largely because I prefer their company) ; but a lot of that is that I travel a lot and am involved in niche interests that attract very smart and switched on people.

I don't buy this manosphere, "man bias". I think it is polarising and not useful. Please don't mistake me for a feminist, I see feminism as being nothing to do with essential female values. I see it more as females adopting male values (and failing) I do think women should be women and adopt female values. But I do actually respect those values and to say they are inferior is just to buy into the problem that has created these "masculinised" women in the first place: who are between a rock and a hard place.

As to people who say that the purpose of women is just to comfort men... well, there is at least a little something to that, but all this second sex and "weaker sex" stuff I find incredibly arcane and outdated. You are really then just giving idiotic feminist cunts ammo for their BS.

Post: #44

I co-sign most of this thread. But there's one thing I think no one has mentioned. One of my exes was a PhD and easily had the intellectual capacity to carry on a focused, productive, balanced discussion. But she argued dirty. She would move the goalposts, put words in my mouth, jump into non-sequiturs - slippery as an eel, she would do anything to win the argument. She would have made a good politician.

I was pretty shocked - my male friends did not argue that way. They had a basic commitment to finding out the truth, however uncomfortable it may have been.

So, even if some women have the brainpower, they may not have the emotional inclination to challenge their own models of the world.

I think it's related to security. Men are happier being on the edge of the abyss, intellectually - I even find it stimulating to free-fall through a few thousand feet of unknowing. But women want to be on safe ground.

Post: #45

(07-29-2013 11:15 PM)Nemencine Wrote:  i also like cara santa maria:

5/10

Post: #46

(07-29-2013 11:43 PM)Nonpareil Wrote:  - Average Intelligence (Numerous studies have shown that while men are smarter than women, we're also dumber; most of them show substantially more men up int he high-IQ range, with maybe 75% of women in the 97-103 range)...

...It goes without saying, that when talking to the average 18-24 year old girl I meet in the day-to-day, I speak slower than normal (not for the sole purpose of speaking down to them; I like to speak clearly and eloquently to women) and avoid big words and deep or mundane topics. I have given up screening for intelligence, insight or interesting conversation with women; women are there to laugh with, have fun with, make love to and have adventures with, not to provide you with intellectual stimulation.

My IQ is 140. Some cognitive thought theories suggest effective communication works best when people are within one Standard Deviation from each other (15 IQ Points). True Communication becomes impossible when two people are only 2 Standard Deviations apart in IQ. This is only 30 IQ points - basically, the difference between average and retarded intelligence. If the smarter person talks comfortably at their own level, the dumber person will only hear what seems like nonsense to their limited intellect, and then most likely assume some level of insanity on their part.

There are far less women at the extremes of intelligence than men, so I realised years ago that the odds of meeting a woman I can truly communicate with are tiny, even within academia.

I learnt simply to not even bother. No woman would ever suspect I'm anything but mentally-average. *I never* reveal my intelligence: women have no use for it, and definitely don't want to fuck a man's mind. To them, I'm just the big stoic dumb biker, which also lowers their expectations of how well I'll be likely to treat them, and suggests that committment won't be offered. And I still get to fuck them! They get their bad boy thrill. I get the sex. Never conversation. Given the quality they're capable of, it's preferable.

Post: #47

I think with quite a lot of women it is because they have no hobbies. All they care about is makeup, going out, bitching etc.

Post: #48

(07-30-2013 07:33 AM)Tony.5678 Wrote:  I think with quite a lot of women it is because they have no hobbies. All they care about is makeup, going out, bitching etc.

They seem to have to absorb the lives of the men they date. They almost shamelessly insert themselves into their social circles as if they were her friends from ages. They seem to acquire interest in his interests. Left to their own devices, most of their 'hobbies' revolve around what you said, and I'd add on food and things for their house (both of with are part of the motherly/nesting instinct).

Post: #49

I've had great intellectual conversations with women, but I have to guide it there.

Post: #50

The only women I found I could talk to like an adult were either in their 70s or had aspergers. Their conversation exists only to facilitate trust and emotional reciprocation, it's really meaningless as a method of conveying information. Men talk to exchange information, women talk to exchange feelings. That's really all there is to it. Of course their conversation is useless bullshit content-wise, it's all about feelings. They talk more, feel better, and share nothing of value.