Post: #51

This video merits attention. As I've always said, the end of Jim Crow ironically precipitated the end of the black community as it historically had been. Back in the day black doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc lived in black communities. After the end of Jim Crow, many of these folks left to live in integrated communities. In the inner cities, you had white flight AND the departure of upwardly mobile blacks. Then those communities were hit with the crack epidemic which led to a dramatic increase in violence.

Back in 1964, two-thirds of all people locked up for crime were whites, while blacks and latinos made up the remainder. Today, it's the opposite.

Post: #52

(07-26-2013 06:18 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(07-26-2013 06:10 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  This seems irrelevant.

It may be irrelevant but do you think its accurate?

Is it accurate that whites are just as capable of violence and criminality given the circumstances? Of course. I still just don't see how it applies to what anybody is saying though - unless you think someone here is asserting otherwise?

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #53

(07-26-2013 06:21 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  Is it accurate that whites are just as capable of violence and criminality given the circumstances? Of course. I still just don't see how it applies to what anybody is saying though - unless you think someone here is asserting otherwise?

I think that sometimes people assert otherwise. I don't necessarily disagree with them 100% of the time. I like to hear their arguments and reasoning. I also like to ask the questions.

I like to discuss race. I am a social scientist.

Thank you for saying what you did.

Post: #54

(07-26-2013 05:56 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(07-26-2013 04:58 PM)pitt Wrote:  If you guys think that Zimmerman would shoot Trayvon if Trayvon was white, then you must be kidding yourself.

Anyhow, here's a question for you based on your video. The black ladies also failed to call out the white guy and said something about how they didn't expect to see a white guy with burglary tools. Which brings the question to mind - what if a black man had "racially profiled" Trayvon that night and got attacked and then killed him in defense?

Would blacks be demanding justice and threatening a civil rights suit then? Would they be calling for blood and threatening family members?

If the answer is no, then why do it in the case of a Hispanic? If racial profiling is real - and in this case, I insist it was at least somewhat warranted given the racial profile of the burglars targeting that neighborhood - then isn't it the entire society's problem? Why should one man be punished for jumping to a conclusion even black people themselves would have jumped to?

I completely agree with you on here. Actually if you look at one of the videos that i posted where the author talks about black hypocrisy, you will see that he is highlighting what you are saying here. I also think that is foolish for black people to gather together for this incident when there are so many black on black crime and nobody gives a fuck.

My point is just that society (that means all race, even blacks) discriminate more blacks than any other race, it is called the halo effect. It is not fair, it is not right but it's reality. Many times i walked into supermarket stores and i was followed by security guards who happened to be black and I am sure i was a suspect because of the way i dressed and because i am black.

Now, i am not necessarily deffending Trayvon because he was black, i would be saying the same thing if Trayvon was white, i just think that it is unfair for Zimmerman to walk away free when he killed someone. Are you telling me that this guy doesnt even deserve a minimum sentence of 5 years in prison?

Guys I am not going to waste my time arguing if Zimmerman is guilty or if he is innocent. Treyvon is gone and there is nothing i can do about this.


I am going back to work on my project.

Post: #55

(07-26-2013 06:33 PM)pitt Wrote:  Now, i am not necessarily deffending Trayvon because he was black, i would be saying the same thing if Trayvon was white, i just think that it is unfair for Zimmerman to walk away free when he killed someone. Are you telling me that this guy doesnt even deserve a minimum sentence of 5 years in prison?

Pitt, you already said you think if TM was white it wouldn't have happened.

I hear what you are saying but still think it makes no sense. I have been followed before but that doesn't mean I have the right to physically attack them. If I do that then I am the aggressor.

It is interesting to see who on here think they can physically attack someone for simply following them or saying something they don't like (I am not saying this about you Pitt).

If Zimmerman started getting physically first, he should have went to jail. For now, he has to live in fear for being stupid. That doesn't mean he wasn't suppose to defend himself when he got attacked.

Post: #56

(07-26-2013 06:33 PM)pitt Wrote:  

(07-26-2013 05:56 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(07-26-2013 04:58 PM)pitt Wrote:  If you guys think that Zimmerman would shoot Trayvon if Trayvon was white, then you must be kidding yourself.

Anyhow, here's a question for you based on your video. The black ladies also failed to call out the white guy and said something about how they didn't expect to see a white guy with burglary tools. Which brings the question to mind - what if a black man had "racially profiled" Trayvon that night and got attacked and then killed him in defense?

Would blacks be demanding justice and threatening a civil rights suit then? Would they be calling for blood and threatening family members?

If the answer is no, then why do it in the case of a Hispanic? If racial profiling is real - and in this case, I insist it was at least somewhat warranted given the racial profile of the burglars targeting that neighborhood - then isn't it the entire society's problem? Why should one man be punished for jumping to a conclusion even black people themselves would have jumped to?

I completely agree with you on here. Actually if you look at one of the videos that i posted where the author talks about black hypocrisy, you will see that he is highlighting what you are saying here. I also think that is foolish for black people to gather together for this incident when there are so many black on black crime and nobody gives a fuck.

Okay, I got you. I must admit I haven't gotten a chance to watch all the videos you posted. I'm in Cambodia and my internet is slow. I'll give them a look later.

Quote:My point is just that society (that means all race, even blacks) discriminate more blacks than any other race, it is called the halo effect. It is not fair, it is not right but it's reality. Many times i walked into supermarket stores and i was followed by security guards who happened to be black and I am sure i was a suspect because of the way i dressed and because i am black.

I believe you that it does exist. I do think that some blacks fail to realize it happens to a lot of the rest of us though too. I've been followed and lurked on by security guards as well - I just couldn't say it was because of being black because, well, I'm not.

So what was it for? Just because I looked like a possible candidate for trouble, I suppose. I think racial profiling does exist, but I also think there's a tendency to ignore the other variables involved in favor of blaming it on skin color.

For instance, you also mentioned it was partly because of the way you were dressed. But you kind of threw that in as an "extra detail." Do you think a black man dressed differently than you would have warranted the same reaction?

Quote:Now, i am not necessarily deffending Trayvon because he was black, i would be saying the same thing if Trayvon was white, i just think that it is unfair for Zimmerman to walk away free when he killed someone. Are you telling me that this guy doesnt even deserve a minimum sentence of 5 years in prison?

Okay, I understand you.

Unfortunately, my answer for the time being is that no, based on what I know about the case I don't think he should have gotten a minimum sentence of 5 years, though perhaps that would have been at least a possibility if the prosecution hadn't pursued such blown-up, out-of-proportion charges.

Simply put, I'm a believer in the idea that men should have the right to use deadly force if someone attacks them and they don't want to be attacked. It's far different than two man squaring up and deciding to have a boxing match over a grudge. If someone is underneath you screaming for help and you don't stop, well, our laws give them the right to use deadly force against you.

And given that Zimmerman didn't know his attacker, he had no way of knowing how it would all end. No one has the right to take away another man's power and right to safety in a civilized society.

If you don't think that law is just, all you really can do is try to remove it from the books. But even then we couldn't go back and retry the case based on new laws.

Once again, you can always make an argument that things didn't go down like Zimmerman said, but without any evidence of that it just seems a bit irrelevant, as it doesn't have any legal weight.

Anyways, I think people get upset because they hear about an unarmed 17-year-old getting shot who was just walking home from the store. And given those details it is upsetting indeed. But we can't convict just based on being upset. That's not how the system works and once we start using that as the basis for legal decisions we open up a huge can of toxic worms.

Quote:Guys I am not going to waste my time arguing if Zimmerman is guilty or if he is innocent. Treyvon is gone and there is nothing i can do about this.

I am going back to work on my project.

I hear you, bro - I don't really want to return to arguing it to death either. No hard feelings.

Time for me to catch some much-delayed sleep.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #57

(07-26-2013 05:40 PM)pitt Wrote:  Lets rewind this:

Do you think that Zimmerman would follow Trayvon if Trayvon was white?

We've gone through this umpteen times in other threads. GZ was already following TM by the time he called 911. Listen to the 911 call and tell me that GZ knew TM was black before the call.

Could he have suspected TM was black based on dress? Sure. But he didn't know until well after he had decided TM was worth keeping an eye on.

(07-26-2013 06:07 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  That said, I will admit that American Blacks are statistically more prone to commit crime, but I think its because of the situation they were born into, not because of their biology.

Wut? Who said it had anything to do with their biology?

In fact, I've argued in this forum that it's a result of liberal policies. If you take Indian and Chinese people and make them 'beneficiaries'/slaves of the same liberal policies that lower class blacks are subjected to, in a couple of generations, you will have skyrocketing out-of-wedlock births, absentee fathers, women having children by multiple men, etc.

Current black 'leadership' will never place the blame where it lies, because to do so is to bite the hand that feeds them.

Post: #58

(07-26-2013 01:24 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Pitt and Valdez

I can't believe you two still are so ignorant of the facts surrounding the case.

Everything Valdez just wrote surrounding his knowledge of the case is wrong.

This is why some black people will make it hard for black people as a whole to be taken seriously.

Pitt, you just posted a video outlining what's wrong in the black community, a major point is to stop playing the role of victims, then you say you completely agree with Valdez who is either too stupid to look up the actual circumstances or is being willfully ignorant.

How you don't see the conflict between these two things is just bewildering.

Please enlighten myself and the good folks on rooshv forum. I am open to debate. Tell me where I went wrong?

And please stay on topic and try not side step with saying, "violence in Chicago".

Post: #59

Quote:I don't think Fisto is arguing that blacks are genetically predisposed to crime.

This is a very complex question. Consider what it means to ask whether white people are genetically predisposed to have blond hair. It's true they are, but hair can be dyed blond and most whites have brown hair.

Imagine a hypothetical scenario with two self-identified races: blue people and green people. Blue people have a genetic disposition that gives them a 10% likelihood of turning criminal in a bad environment. Green people have among them a 10% subset with genes that always make them criminal, regardless of environment. Remaining green people have no criminal likelihood at all.

Which population is "genetically predisposed" to crime?

You could say they're equally predisposed to criminality because on average in a neutral environment, the numbers even out. But they aren't equal. If you were developing policies to reduce crime, different approaches would be more effective. Remove criminals from the green population. Modify environments to discourage crime in the blue population.

Post: #60

(07-26-2013 05:28 PM)pitt Wrote:  

(07-26-2013 05:02 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(07-26-2013 04:58 PM)pitt Wrote:  This thread is starting to sound like the threads where white guys go to certain places and assume that black men won't pull no women. How would you know this if you are not black and you have never experienced what is like to live like a black man?

If you guys think that Zimmerman would shoot Trayvon if Trayvon was white, then you must be kidding yourself.

You know this because you are white?

No, simply because white people are treated better than blacks in general.
Look at the racial profiling video, this is the evidence for my argument.

Do you disagree?

Just a quick point. Whites aren't treated better in all-black neighborhoods.

P.S. If you're still in the DR, post more stuff. There's a big DR fan club on this forum. We can't get enough first-hand info.

Post: #61

Stand Your Ground, Post-Trayvon Martin America, You’re Not Racist

Post: #62

(07-26-2013 08:48 PM)RaulValdez739 Wrote:  

(07-26-2013 01:24 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Pitt and Valdez

I can't believe you two still are so ignorant of the facts surrounding the case.

Everything Valdez just wrote surrounding his knowledge of the case is wrong.

This is why some black people will make it hard for black people as a whole to be taken seriously.

Pitt, you just posted a video outlining what's wrong in the black community, a major point is to stop playing the role of victims, then you say you completely agree with Valdez who is either too stupid to look up the actual circumstances or is being willfully ignorant.

How you don't see the conflict between these two things is just bewildering.

Please enlighten myself and the good folks on rooshv forum. I am open to debate. Tell me where I went wrong?

And please stay on topic and try not side step with saying, "violence in Chicago".

This has been discussed over and over. You're late to the party. Your understanding of the events is skewed by having heard liberal media news coverage. You obviously didn't care enough to go find the facts for yourself and rely on US magazine.

There's nothing to debate here. You're simply ignorant.

Post: #63

Keep the zimmerman/martin stuff in the link. There is far more information and view points there.

/thread-25697-page-34.html

Post: #64

This notion that people of African descent are "genetically" more predisposed to violence is hilarious and suggests historical amnesia or ignorance - if not worse - on the part of the person making the argument.

No other race of human beings has killed more people, raped more women, destroyed more cultures, or has stolen as much land as people of European descent.

Here is just ONE of nearly endless historical examples, past and present.

Post: #65

(07-27-2013 10:24 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  This notion that people of African descent are "genetically" more predisposed to violence is hilarious and suggests historical amnesia or ignorance - if not worse - on the part of the person making the argument.

Who are you talking to? I was not aware that someone made that statement.

In fact, I think it's been made clear that this isn't what's being argued at all.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #66

Just out of curiosity what do the Black posters on this board expect to achieve by continuously denigrating Blacks via starting threads like this and articles on ROK. Are you trying to gain acceptance and boost your "stock", so to speak with members on this board? The reason I ask is that time and time again these threads devolve into race baiting rather than constructive discussions. As a result, it's fair to conclude that while these are prudent discussions to have for the sake community improvement, having said discussions on this forum is neither prudent nor particularly advisable as history has proven time and time again.

When it comes to race on this board, Blacks and non-Blacks are not going to see eye to eye since our historical experiences are not identical, so in the end it's all just a waste of energy. Just saying.........

Post: #67

(07-27-2013 10:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(07-27-2013 10:24 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  This notion that people of African descent are "genetically" more predisposed to violence is hilarious and suggests historical amnesia or ignorance - if not worse - on the part of the person making the argument.

Who are you talking to? I was not aware that someone made that statement.

In fact, I think it's been made clear that this isn't what's being argued at all.

Ah. My fault then. I thought I saw it brought up somewhere.

Well, what's being argued then?

I think it's more than fair to say there are deep problems in Black America today, but a helpful discussion would look into the deeper (historical) reasons for that. No serious person can divorce the two.

Bill O'Reilly is an inflammatory and incendiary cable news host and he uses his platform to promote division, hence his use of ad hominems such as "race hustlers," and "limousine liberals" in that video. I can't take him seriously when he purports to care about black Americans without educating his viewers on the long, oppressive and often times (violent) history endured by black Americans in this country.

You really can't compare the history of African-Americans or Native Americans to other groups in the US. Immigrants from foreign countries (like my family) chose to come here and hustle so the old libertarian notion of personal responsibility, etc can apply easily.

You can't say that to people that are the product of a culture shaped by slavery (where people literally were owned by others in direct contradiction to America's ideals) and Jim Crow. Keep in mind there are still people alive today that experienced the latter.

Many of the problems today can be pinpointed to the effects those two phenomenons have had on black culture, as well as the changes in US society since.

It will take a long time to say the least to counter the negative aspects that long history has had on shaping a culture.

In fact, if anything, I'm impressed by the pace of progress in many areas since then, though there is still a long way to go overall.

One good outcome of the Zimmerman case is that it's generating discussion about inequities in the US justice system, with blacks receiving harsher sentences than whites for the same crime, among other issues.

Post: #68

^I think Bill O'Reilly has some valid points. Sure, his delivery is a bit over the top, but his facts are dead accurate.

Also, why are blacks in so many countries prone to committing crime (Brazil, USA, Canada, UK, France, etc.)? It is comical to pretend that the high black crime rates only happen in the USA. They seem to happen anywhere there is a large black community. How long can the "legacy of slavery" be used as an excuse to gloss over the facts regarding crime?

Post: #69

(07-27-2013 11:07 AM)iWin Wrote:  Just out of curiosity what do the Black posters on this board expect to achieve by continuously denigrating Blacks via starting threads like this and articles on ROK. Are you trying to gain acceptance and boost your "stock", so to speak with members on this board?

LOL. Black guy acknowledges reality, and is subtly called an Uncle Tom.

With this kind of mentality, is it any surprise that so few blacks will speak up rather than just stay silent or go along with the victimization narrative?

Post: #70

(07-27-2013 11:14 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(07-27-2013 10:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(07-27-2013 10:24 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  This notion that people of African descent are "genetically" more predisposed to violence is hilarious and suggests historical amnesia or ignorance - if not worse - on the part of the person making the argument.

Who are you talking to? I was not aware that someone made that statement.

In fact, I think it's been made clear that this isn't what's being argued at all.

Ah. My fault then. I thought I saw it brought up somewhere.

Well, what's being argued then?

I think where you got confused may have been in the post where I pointed out to Giovonny that Fisto was NOT saying blacks were genetically predisposed to violence and crime. You can find the post here: /thread-26239-...#pid498622

At least that's where the term "genetically predisposed" was first used, so I assumed it's where you got that. You can also see my version of what was being argued there.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #71

@Assman No, I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else on here is a Tom for talking about such issues. I'm just questioning how useful talking about such dynamics is on a forum like this where there's not really alot of black people. I've already acknowledged that these are great discussions to have within the community. As I am we'll aware how the behaviors talked about in the video take their toll on the community as a whole. My bad if it seemed like I'm attacking anyone.

Post: #72

(07-26-2013 04:19 PM)j r Wrote:  99% of the people in jail for rape are men. I guess you should wise up and see the patriarchy and the rape culture.

You guys want to pick and choose which generalizations you accept and which you reject based in which ones accord to your preexisting stereotypes. That's fine. Just don't expect me to take it seriously.

And I never said that out of wedlock births isn't an issue. I said that Samseu was inflating its importance and minimizing downplaying the importance of other factors.

You change the terms of debate. The issue was not if blacks are more likely to be criminals, the issue is whether or not blacks can ever be introspective enough to admit that there is a MAJOR problem they inflict upon themselves.

Post: #73

(07-26-2013 06:19 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  



This video merits attention. As I've always said, the end of Jim Crow ironically precipitated the end of the black community as it historically had been. Back in the day black doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc lived in black communities. After the end of Jim Crow, many of these folks left to live in integrated communities. In the inner cities, you had white flight AND the departure of upwardly mobile blacks. Then those communities were hit with the crack epidemic which led to a dramatic increase in violence.

Back in 1964, two-thirds of all people locked up for crime were whites, while blacks and latinos made up the remainder. Today, it's the opposite.

Tim Wise is a bullshit artist. Dude preaches about white racism all day long yet he lives in a 99.9% white community (might even be gated). Typical hypocritical full of shit liberal.

Post: #74

(07-27-2013 12:51 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(07-26-2013 06:19 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  



This video merits attention. As I've always said, the end of Jim Crow ironically precipitated the end of the black community as it historically had been. Back in the day black doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc lived in black communities. After the end of Jim Crow, many of these folks left to live in integrated communities. In the inner cities, you had white flight AND the departure of upwardly mobile blacks. Then those communities were hit with the crack epidemic which led to a dramatic increase in violence.

Back in 1964, two-thirds of all people locked up for crime were whites, while blacks and latinos made up the remainder. Today, it's the opposite.

Tim Wise is a bullshit artist. Dude preaches about white racism all day long yet he lives in a 99.9% white community (might even be gated). Typical hypocritical full of shit liberal.

That is a classic ad hominem. What on earth does his residence have to do with his arguments? Do you live in a black neighborhood? If not, does that invalidate your arguments on that basis alone? Wise has educated corporations, law enforcement agencies, and other institutions on the the topic of race in this country.

Post: #75

(07-27-2013 12:18 PM)iWin Wrote:  @Assman No, I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else on here is a Tom for talking about such issues. I'm just questioning how useful talking about such dynamics is on a forum like this where there's not really alot of black people. I've already acknowledged that these are great discussions to have within the community. As I am we'll aware how the behaviors talked about in the video take their toll on the community as a whole. My bad if it seemed like I'm attacking anyone.

I don't see why it couldn't be useful, unless you are saying that only blacks understand what is wrong in lower class black communities. And if you are saying that, I'd beg to differ.

I'd agree that, on the surface, it doesn't seem like these threads ever go anywhere. But that makes a lot of assumptions. There may very well be people reading these threads who are learning new concepts. And it can help clarify some misunderstandings. For example, a couple of people have suggested that some people are saying that YBM criminality is a genetic predisposition. I've said, and I'd bet many conservatives would agree, that the root cause is liberal policies. You can subject Asians to the same policies and in a few generations, you'd see many of the same problems we are seeing in inner city ghettos.