Post: #1

I get this feeling that there's been more and more messages from society at large telling us "Ultimately, you're not in control. You are shaped by forces that are beyond your control and if you succeed in anything, you should not be proud of your accomplishments as you were basically given everything needed to do what you did and if you fail, then cheer up because it's not your fault and there's nothing you can do to change it."

A good example of what I'm talking about would be this whole fat acceptance movement. An idea that this movement pushes over and over again is how it's impossible to lose weight and keep it off so you might as well not even try. In other words, no matter how much willpower and work you put into improving this aspect of yourself, you are ultimately trapped by biological forces beyond your control so you might as well enjoy chomping down all the Doritos.

The idea of free will has taken a lot of hits from a lot of intellectuals and in my more paranoid moments I wonder if there's a plan behind this. I'm the type that tends to get annoyed by conspiracy theories in general but in my more paranoid moments I can't but wonder if the pushing of such ideas is part of a bigger movement to help create an environment more open to a Brave New World society. After all, if there's no free will and we ultimately are just molded by outside circumstances with no possibility to add our own input then who's to say we shouldn't just give up any agency and allow people who "know better" to make us into responsible, moral, productive, citizens? If you are someone who tends to have more of a collectivist rather then a individualistic mentality, the idea that you ultimately don't have any responsibility for anything that happens to you or how you react to it would seem to make you more attracted to such a society.

Any thoughts on this or am I just being paranoid?

Post: #2

I think it's a coping mechanism to rationalize being afraid. It takes balls to even try to be something other than mediocre and people will resent you and put you down. I play music and I get put down sometimes by people even in my social circle because "I'm trying to be famous."

Post: #3

Yeah, that'll be the fault of runaway postmodernism.

The idea is that all views are equally valid. As such, morality is relative, and who you are is mostly just based on the social constructs of the dominant group. This was the mindset where "patriarchy" likely came from. Since they believe their entire lives are based on arbitrary socially constructed values, their existential crisis is lack of meaning and control, and subsequently nihilism.

Take the fat acceptance movement. It isn't so much that it's impossible to lose weight, it's that it's meaningless to lose weight, since they see being fit as an arbitrary social construct.

Lindy West falls into this crowd, she figures everyone is ignorant for not recognizing that they're just unconscious slaves to an arbitrary social construct which she, in her wisdom, has seen through.

What her ilk haven't yet realized is that not all social constructs are arbitrary. Being fit is better than being a repugnant fat ass for a number of reasons.

Post: #4

Yep. It's just a social construct a woman who runs often and has a healthy diet will be able to complete something simple and short like 5k, whereas Lindy West will be hallucinating visions of Jesus as her pig brain overheats by the first 1k.

Post: #5

The actual scientists and philosophers who specialise in things like Evolutionary Psychology and the concept of free will are not part of a conspiracy or "movement" They are just observing nature and drawing conclusions based on these observations. i.e. They are scientists. Yes, even the philosophers.

It's true that at the political level certain findings are either amplified, or hushed up, depending on whatever point of view the political class want to promote at that time. And this isn't consistent through the years. The same group, or political label, can be promoting X today, but in 10 or 20 years quite possibly consider X anathema. It's just a silly game, and you probably shouldn't be paying much attention to what politicians and activists of various kinds think about things. They are just professional rabble rousers who feed of the game itself. Not off the results of the game. And for the game to continue there must be tension and disagreement. If you are interested in some particular aspect of human experience get as close as possible to the source. Apart from your own personal experience non-political/non-corrupted scientists are also a good bet for solid insight.

Back to free will. There are a lot of very smart people who maintain that this is an illusion. Also a lot of smart people who think the opposite (e.g. Daniel Dennet). IMHO I think the debate doesn't really belong in the broad general sphere. As humans we are not cut out to believe that we do not have free will. If you are hyper smart maybe you can live with this idea that free will is a sham. But for most people it would be an insanely destructive idea. For literally 99.999% of people it would be better to "act as if" we have free will, whether you believe it intellectually or not.

Post: #6

Study the Wu-Tang albums more closely.

The answers you seek are in them:





For most of us, control is an illusion.

Post: #7

(07-18-2013 06:08 PM)Wadsworth Wrote:  Yeah, that'll be the fault of runaway postmodernism.

The idea is that all views are equally valid. As such, morality is relative, and who you are is mostly just based on the social constructs of the dominant group. This was the mindset where "patriarchy" likely came from. Since they believe their entire lives are based on arbitrary socially constructed values, their existential crisis is lack of meaning and control, and subsequently nihilism.

This here. It's fine to believe whatever you want. We can breathe in space if that's what you like, just don't be surprised when you get there and suddenly you're dead... And don't try take anyone else along for the ride. If we were in control, there wouldn't be things like jail, bail, police, judges, government, law, etc.. We don't even get the freedom of choosing the way in which our freedoms are reduced

Post: #8

I'm in control. The trick is not getting sucked in.

Post: #9

(07-22-2013 01:55 PM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  Back to free will. There are a lot of very smart people who maintain that this is an illusion. Also a lot of smart people who think the opposite (e.g. Daniel Dennet). IMHO I think the debate doesn't really belong in the broad general sphere. As humans we are not cut out to believe that we do not have free will. If you are hyper smart maybe you can live with this idea that free will is a sham. But for most people it would be an insanely destructive idea. For literally 99.999% of people it would be better to "act as if" we have free will, whether you believe it intellectually or not.

I feel like even people who do not believe in free will do live as if they did and that in a way it is impossible to live without feeling that people, whether it be other people or a person himself is responsible in some way for what they do.