Post: #26

(07-04-2013 03:41 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  you can't argue the science with opinion.

What science? You didn't present anything that was scientific to back up what you were saying. I notice you changed what you originally wrote and edited out the word science with facts. It's understandable when you can't find a scientific journal to back up what you're saying. But I can.

Barnett, C., Kippers, V., and Turner, P. (1995). Effects of variations of the bench press exercise on the EMG activity of five shoulder muscles. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 9(4): 222-227.

Here is one of the conclusions they reached during the study:

"Employing the decline press to recruit the sternocostal head of the pectoralis major is not justified because the EMG activity obtained from the horizontal press with either hand spacing exceeds that elicited durng the decline press."

Post: #27

Decline is overrated. If your looking to focus on that lower chest isolate it with cables, or a tricep-rope based at and/or through your legs and come through focusing the tension squarely on the lower region.

I've started to see the light on flat bench also as incline is superior and I get way more rewards as its more difficult to do with more focus on that chest area. Flat bench for me now is just to burn out with a suicide press on and do pyramid/drop sets with more ease without having a mess of dumbbells around me.

Post: #28

Still gotta laugh at people who think bodybuilding = science. Bodybuilding is about what works.

Post: #29

Mark Rippetoe is a strength trainer and powerlifter, I don't think he ever trained for or competed in bodybuilding.

This is what he has to say about science:

Quote:* fluidmsc
What do you see as the role of empirical, well-controlled scientific studies of weight training methods?

* Rippetoe
They have made essentially no useful contribution to strength and conditioning. None. S&C depends almost entirely on anecdotal evidence and its collation and evaluation by experienced coaches. This is because there are so few well-designed studies that it makes little difference how well-controlled they are. This has been discussed at length on the board also, and was a primary factor in my dis-association with the NSCA in 2009.

* EagleFalconn
So to be clear, you're not saying that science has no place in improving weight training, just that the science out there right now sucks?

* Rippetoe
Precisely. The exercise science literature is an embarrassment.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments..._strength/

Post: #30

Decline press isn't a useless exercise. It just needs to be programmed properly which is where people usually get it wrong. I don't think incline bench is neither superior nor inferior to flat bench. It just depends on experience, how it is used, technique, weaknesses, angle of the bench, etc. For the average person it is just a matter of which one you use to measure progress. Do at least one of them consistently so you can track your progress. They will both give you results. Personally, I've always felt like the steeper the incline the harder on the shoulders (as in harder on the joints), but maybe that was just me.

Post: #31

(07-04-2013 04:58 PM)Hammer Wrote:  

(07-04-2013 03:41 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  you can't argue the science with opinion.

What science? You didn't present anything that was scientific to back up what you were saying. I notice you changed what you originally wrote and edited out the word science with facts. It's understandable when you can't find a scientific journal to back up what you're saying. But I can.

Barnett, C., Kippers, V., and Turner, P. (1995). Effects of variations of the bench press exercise on the EMG activity of five shoulder muscles. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 9(4): 222-227.

Here is one of the conclusions they reached during the study:

"Employing the decline press to recruit the sternocostal head of the pectoralis major is not justified because the EMG activity obtained from the horizontal press with either hand spacing exceeds that elicited durng the decline press."

http://www.aptonovo.com/carlossilvaperso...itoral.pdf

Our results show that submaximal phases of the decline bench press involves a greater overall activation of the pectoral muscles than during the incline bench press.

You also only cited part of the findings in your study, in your study the findings essentially concluded that incline and flat bench don't differ. Seeing as flat bench when going heavy is an injury waiting to happen leaves incline as viable solution and one to be incorporated but to say decline is useless is just false. There is room for both within a routine, the emg shows the decline has the most chest activation, it allows for a heavier load which as we know the more time under tension the more growth. Rippetoe and you can argue the facts and the science and the empirical evidence but it's there and you guys are only hurting your own progress not incorporating it.

Post: #32

(07-04-2013 06:03 PM)Every10GivesMeA10 Wrote:  Still gotta laugh at people who think bodybuilding = science. Bodybuilding is about what works.

gotta laugh at people who don't think science can be applied to anything. There will always be the guys who take whatever shit they can cause they see other guys taking it but it started because some guy had the intelligence to figure out how to apply to bb'ing...

Post: #33

Flat benching is not an injury waiting to happen. Improper flat benching can be hazardous. There is no such thing as a dangerous exercise, only a dangerous way to perform them.

Post: #34

(07-04-2013 10:36 PM)Doctor Wrote:  Flat benching is not an injury waiting to happen. Improper flat benching can be hazardous. There is no such thing as a dangerous exercise, only a dangerous way to perform them.

when youre throwing around serious weights, its an exercise that leads quite frequently to injuries. There is a reason powerlifters don't bench max weight reguarly, they rarely attempt personal bests outside of meets, they know its dangerous. Some exercises dont lend themselves well to pushing around serious weight. Behind the neck presses are great for building delts, try to rack serious poundage and attempt them even with good form its a matter of time till you'll tear up your delts. On the flip side I can rack as much as my delts can handle for side laterals and shit all is going to happen unless I caused it. So yes there are exercises that are likely to cause injuries more so than others despite great form but proper form and lighter weights will negate much of the potential risk.

Post: #35

(07-04-2013 09:53 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  You also only cited part of the findings in your study, in your study the findings essentially concluded that incline and flat bench don't differ.

I cited the part of the findings that was relavent to our discussion which is whether decline is worth doing or not. The scientific journal basically states that the decline bench press was not justifiable for chest muscle recruitment when compared to the incline or the flat bench.

Can you actually find a similar statement in a scientific journal that practically states the incline or the flat bench is not "justifiable" or that it is negligible for building chest compared to the decline? If you can't (and I highly doubt that you can as it would contradict the journal's findings) then it's just your opinion yes? You have a scientific journal clearly stating in plain english that the decline bench is garbage, compared to the incline and flat bench for building chest your opinion flies in the opposite direction of their scientific findings.

Personally. I used to do decline quite a lot. It was always a part of my chest routine. I found doing decline with dumbell flies was a smooth easy exercise even under heavy weight. I used to do very little if any incline. I focused on flat bench mainly and supplemented with a few other chest exercises, like cable rows.

Talking to two trainers in body building who were personal friends outside of the gym I was advised to drop the decline bench altogether and focus on the incline bench. The results were as could be expected far superior to my previous workout routine. It had a huge impact in the size of my chest over a period of months. The scientific literature is a solid confirmation of my personal experience.

Post: #36

(07-04-2013 11:29 PM)Hammer Wrote:  

(07-04-2013 09:53 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  You also only cited part of the findings in your study, in your study the findings essentially concluded that incline and flat bench don't differ.

I cited the part of the findings that was relavent to our discussion which is whether decline is worth doing or not. The scientific journal basically states that the decline bench press was not justifiable for chest muscle recruitment when compared to the incline or the flat bench.

Can you actually find a similar statement in a scientific journal that practically states the incline or the flat bench is not "justifiable" or that it is negligible for building chest compared to the decline? If you can't (and I highly doubt that you can as it would contradict the journal's findings) then it's just your opinion yes? You have a scientific journal clearly stating in plain english that the decline bench is garbage, compared to the incline and flat bench for building chest.

Personally. I used to do decline quite a lot. It was always a part of my chest routine. I found doing decline with dumbell flies was a smooth easy exercise even under heavy weight. I used to do very little if any incline. I focused on flat bench mainly and supplemented with a few other chest exercises, like cable rows.

Talking to two trainers in body building who were personal friends outside of the gym I was advised to drop the decline bench altogether and focus on the incline bench. The results were as could be expected far superior to my previous workout routine. It had a huge impact in the size of my chest over a period of months. The scientific literature is a solid confirmation of my personal experience.

I wasnt arguging that incline was not justifiable, I argued that decline isnt useless. It is useful in conjunction with other exercises, like weighted dips like I mentioned in my initial post and I also mentioned I add in incline bbell presses...but that declines and dips were staples in my routine based on the study I posted, empirical evidence, you talked 2 a couple of trainers, I talk to ifbb pros, and guys who make a life off their bodies...the best bb'ers of all time relied on declines as part of their routines but its not going to work for everybody else??? You made an all or nothing statement, do these not that, I merely said not to leave out declines. You said it yourself you focused on declines and didn't do much of anything else, then you incorporated other lifts and your chest changed...and the only conclusion you drew was declines didnt work, if your routine was better rounded your results would have improved but you laid the blame at declines...a similar case could be made for somebody who does nothing but inclines and then adds in declines and sees his chest grow, a new routine does as much to change results as does the specific exercises, routines get stale bodies adjust, change is good. You see what you wanted to see...you completely ignored the study I posted...you want to be right, Im not here to tell you inclines dont work, Im saying for a better chest dont think declines cant be part of the solution.

Post: #37

(07-04-2013 11:40 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  You said it yourself you focused on declines and didn't do much of anything else

Now you're putting words in my mouth I never said I focused on declines and did not do much of anything else.

Post: #38

also the journal never said decline lead to negligible results, another case of seeing what you want to see, it's conclusions were that flat or incline were better than decline, not that decline did nothing...you extrapolated to that point on your own...My study came to a different conclusion...does that mean my study says that incline is useless, no...

Post: #39

(07-04-2013 11:47 PM)Hammer Wrote:  

(07-04-2013 11:40 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  You said it yourself you focused on declines and didn't do much of anything else

Now you're putting words in my mouth I never said I focused on declines and did not do much of anything else.

I used to do decline quite a lot. It was always a part of my chest routine. I found doing decline with dumbell flies was a smooth easy exercise even under heavy weight. I used to do very little if any incline. I focused on flat bench mainly

sounds like you did a lot of decline work with little else but flat bench...those are your words what am I missing.

Post: #40

(07-04-2013 11:53 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  I used to do decline quite a lot. It was always a part of my chest routine. I found doing decline with dumbell flies was a smooth easy exercise even under heavy weight. I used to do very little if any incline. I focused on flat bench mainly

sounds like you did a lot of decline work with little else but flat bench...those are your words what am I missing.

Haha, now you are chopping my sentences in half. Bravo.

Post: #41

Any guys here try underhand presses? I picked them up from Jim Stoppani.

You can do them with either barbells, or with dumbbells which is more comfortable for your wrists, and either flat or incline. If done incline they help further emphasize upper pec development. I've had good results with them since I started including them the last few months.

Post: #42

(07-04-2013 11:59 PM)Hammer Wrote:  

(07-04-2013 11:53 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  I used to do decline quite a lot. It was always a part of my chest routine. I found doing decline with dumbell flies was a smooth easy exercise even under heavy weight. I used to do very little if any incline. I focused on flat bench mainly

sounds like you did a lot of decline work with little else but flat bench...those are your words what am I missing.

Haha, now you are chopping my sentences in half. Bravo.

this is where we've gotten? you've got no arguments left so you're angry I'm not quoting your entire paragraphs...

here ya go, here is what I missed,

and supplemented with a few other chest exercises, like cable rows.

clearly chopped it in half...missed cable rows and did some other stuff...changes everything...

Mikecf has warned me about helping guys with fitness tips in here, I gotta learn to listen to him. Everybody who sees scooby or the hodgetwink twins on youtube or reads starting strength is an authority on bb'ing.

Post: #43

(07-05-2013 12:09 AM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(07-04-2013 11:59 PM)Hammer Wrote:  

(07-04-2013 11:53 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  I used to do decline quite a lot. It was always a part of my chest routine. I found doing decline with dumbell flies was a smooth easy exercise even under heavy weight. I used to do very little if any incline. I focused on flat bench mainly

sounds like you did a lot of decline work with little else but flat bench...those are your words what am I missing.

Haha, now you are chopping my sentences in half. Bravo.

this is where we've gotten? you've got no arguments left so you're angry I'm not quoting your entire paragraphs...

here ya go, here is what I missed,

and supplemented with a few other chest exercises, like cable rows.

clearly chopped it in half...missed cable rows and did some other stuff...changes everything...

Mikecf has warned me about helping guys with fitness tips in here, I gotta learn to listen to him. Everybody who sees scooby or the hodgetwink twins on youtube or reads starting strength is an authority on bb'ing.

You wouldn't want to argue with someone who puts words in your mouth and fragments your sentences when they quote you to prove a point would you? I don't waste my time like that.

Post: #44

(07-04-2013 11:17 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(07-04-2013 10:36 PM)Doctor Wrote:  Flat benching is not an injury waiting to happen. Improper flat benching can be hazardous. There is no such thing as a dangerous exercise, only a dangerous way to perform them.

when youre throwing around serious weights, its an exercise that leads quite frequently to injuries. There is a reason powerlifters don't bench max weight reguarly, they rarely attempt personal bests outside of meets, they know its dangerous. Some exercises dont lend themselves well to pushing around serious weight. Behind the neck presses are great for building delts, try to rack serious poundage and attempt them even with good form its a matter of time till you'll tear up your delts. On the flip side I can rack as much as my delts can handle for side laterals and shit all is going to happen unless I caused it. So yes there are exercises that are likely to cause injuries more so than others despite great form but proper form and lighter weights will negate much of the potential risk.

You're right. There is a reason that powerlifters don't bench max weights regularly. It's dumb. That would qualify as an improper way to do them. When I say flat benching is not an injury waiting to happen, I do not include guys that are juiced up in that and I don't include lifters using bench shirts. Guys that walk around with internally rotated shoulders, muscular imbalances, improper warmups, awful programming, and awful technique are the ones who are injuries waiting to happen. Unfortunately that describes a significant portion of the population.

Post: #45

(07-04-2013 11:53 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(07-04-2013 11:47 PM)Hammer Wrote:  

(07-04-2013 11:40 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  You said it yourself you focused on declines and didn't do much of anything else

Now you're putting words in my mouth I never said I focused on declines and did not do much of anything else.

I used to do decline quite a lot. It was always a part of my chest routine. I found doing decline with dumbell flies was a smooth easy exercise even under heavy weight. I used to do very little if any incline. I focused on flat bench mainly

sounds like you did a lot of decline work with little else but flat bench...those are your words what am I missing.

I do also prefer flies in a decline position, as you can square in on the chest with a greater range of motion while by-passing major stress on the shoulder joints.

Post: #46

I'd recommend anybody starting out to begin with the incline press (and possibly not to do any flat work at all), as flat bench creates droopy pecs in most trainees (I've seen it time and time again).

On the topic of emg, this is from Charles Poliquin:

Getting back to our question, the pectoralis major is one muscle with two heads, clavicular and sternocostal, that cover the chest and insert on the upper arm bone (humerus). The clavicular head originates at the center portion of the collar bone (clavical), and in lay language this area is referred to as the upper pecs. One of its primary functions is to raise the arm. The sternocostal head originates at the costal cartilage of the first six ribs and the adjoining section of the breast bone (sternum), and is called the lower pecs. One of its primary functions is to lower the arm.

One method of determining how muscles are activated during an exercise is called electromyography (EMG), a diagnostic tool with a history that spans several centuries and includes a working prototype first presented in 1890, at which time the term electromyography was introduced. In its present form, an EMG involves placing small electrodes in the skin with a needle, or on the skin with surgical tape. These electrodes collect information about the electrical activity of the muscle and send this information to a machine that translates this into data representing the degree of muscular contraction.

In researching the answer for this question, I found one paper using EMGs that compared muscle activation between the incline bench press and the decline bench press. The authors concluded that the lower portion of the pectorals was more active during decline presses than during incline presses, but that neither exercise completely isolated these muscles. From this data you can conclude that exercises which position the hands farther from the center of gravity will more strongly work the upper pecs (e.g., incline bench presses), and exercises that position the hands closer to the center of gravity (e.g., bench presses) work the lower pecs. However, this study did not look at the flat bench press, a consideration that turns out to have significant ramifications in exercise selection.

I say this because I then found another study that did EMG measurements of the incline, flat, and decline presses. It found that the maximum recruitment of the upper pecs was with an incline press, and the maximum recruitment of the lower pecs was with a flat, not decline, press. The study also looked at hand spacing, and what’s interesting is that it found that a wider grip did not significantly increase the involvement of the lower pecs in flat bench presses. With this information, I could now confidently answer this pec training question by saying that incline presses would be best for the upper pecs, and flat bench presses would be best for the lower pecs. But there’s more.

I found another EMG study that examined the differences between muscle activation during the barbell bench press, the dumbbell bench press and the dumbbell fly. What the researchers found was that the dumbbell fly had less muscle activation time than either the barbell bench presses or the dumbbell bench presses. With this information, I could expand my answer by saying that the dumbbell fly is an inferior exercise for developing the lower pecs.

Link to full article: http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesM..._Tape.aspx

Post: #47

(07-04-2013 11:17 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(07-04-2013 10:36 PM)Doctor Wrote:  Flat benching is not an injury waiting to happen. Improper flat benching can be hazardous. There is no such thing as a dangerous exercise, only a dangerous way to perform them.

when youre throwing around serious weights, its an exercise that leads quite frequently to injuries. There is a reason powerlifters don't bench max weight reguarly, they rarely attempt personal bests outside of meets, they know its dangerous. Some exercises dont lend themselves well to pushing around serious weight. Behind the neck presses are great for building delts, try to rack serious poundage and attempt them even with good form its a matter of time till you'll tear up your delts. On the flip side I can rack as much as my delts can handle for side laterals and shit all is going to happen unless I caused it. So yes there are exercises that are likely to cause injuries more so than others despite great form but proper form and lighter weights will negate much of the potential risk.

Good timing on these posts. Flat bench is really fucking up my left shoulder. I am going to switch it up to incline and decline to see how that goes. Incline never gave me many problems but I also focused more on flat benching.