Post: #1

This is a conclusion that I've been arriving at lately.

What's the main religion of the West? Christianity, right?

And what does Christianity teach you, basically?

There are a lot of different lessons, but I'd argue that the main one essentially is that "being weak or a victim is God-like."

That might seem controversial to you when you first think of it. Everybody knows that Christianity has a long and bloody history, and has probably persecuted more people than it has saved.

But think about the religion ITSELF, not the people who practice it.

The fact that the son of GOD is displayed everywhere as a martyr or a victim on the cross.

All the "blessed are the meek" and "rich will never enter the kingdom of heaven" rhetoric.

Fuck, catholics even sometimes refer to Christ as "the sacred victim," for fuck's sake.

We often hear it argued that there is some big conflict between Christianity and socialism in the west.

But what if socialism is really just a purer and more fundamental version of Christianity?

Just a thought.

Now I was thinking something.

I don't want to speak about other groups, but I've noticed that white dudes are often overly concerned with playing the hero or being a white-knight in general.

Wanting to 'save' women, to 'protect' them from the imaginary oppressors of a made-up patriarchy.

I don't think this is some new thing.

I think this is pretty much getting to the heart of what western culture is about.

Under Christian ethics, you are only godlike if you are a victim, or someone who tries to rescue the supposed victim.

Post: #2

Yeah, stoning adulteresses and enforcing female silence and non-leadership in church. Typical white knight crap.

Post: #3

Great post, and while the point is largely philosophical rather than practical, the manosphere needs to be reminded that "feminism" didn't spring up out of nothing forty or a hundred years ago.

Nietszche first made this critique of Christianity (and Judaism). Essentially, the ancient Hebrews first developed the idea that they were weak and oppressed because they were chosen by God and this meme has reproduced and evolved.

I agree that Western society is the child of this victimhood as moral power meme, although as Nietszche points out there are competitor impulses in Western culture.

Post: #4

There is an extensive history of white knighting in the west, particularly the Anglosphere. The ideal of the "Victorian Mother" comes to mind. Western European men have spent centuries pedestalizing women as somehow more divine beings, inherently more moral and closer to god.

It isn't a surprise that the modern Anglosphere is as bad as it is with the simping.

Post: #5

Paragraphs.

Do you know

What they are?

Post: #6

Yeah, but the bible also lets it be known that men are superior and that the women should obey their men. So I just don't see it. And I'm not even Christian, so I have no reason to back up the bible in the instance. If anything I would say it supports masculinity in many instances and undermines femininity.

Post: #7

There is a difference between practicing virtue (including self-sacrifice when it is necessary), looking after our dependents who happen to be members of the weaker sex, and being a beta simp who automatically assumes that a woman can do no wrong, and is to be put on a high pedestal simply because she has a vagina and long hair.

The term "white knight" alludes to the storied ideal of the brave and dashing knight coming along to rescue the poor damsel in distress. This in itself is laudable and manly -after all, we are men, and it is our place to look after and protect women, who, being women, are fundamentally weaker in body and in mind. The problem is, nowadays the white knight doesn't act manly, he acts like a slave, and the woman who needs 'rescuing' isn't truly in danger, she's behaving like an immature, spoiled brat, or like a nasty bitch, who wants to be a man and then gets into trouble when she acts like one. The ideal has been perverted by 19th and 20th century feminism so that now, men are expected to be "manly" by protecting and defending women no matter what they say or do, rather than legitimately looking after them when they need help through no fault of their own that only a man can provide. This sort of "softening" has been going on for at least a hundred and fifty years, and is a perversion of, rather than a result of, Christian teaching. Essentially, nowadays, the implicit belief is that women are models of virtue and can do no wrong. This is definitely a novel idea, and is Victorian, rather than "Western" or "Catholic." Victorian morals are very much still with us unfortunately -the idea that women have very little innate sexual desire, being pure and angelic creatures, and that men are lecherous dogs for being interested in sex.

The Medievals (Catholics) were always very forthright and frank about the shortcomings of women, and did not pedestalize them. The 13th century troubadours, in fact, who first began to idealize women in a way, writing poetry about courtly love, were not looked well upon. Incidentally, that movement stemmed from Languedoc in the South of France, which was not a very strongly Catholic area, owing to its proximity to Spain and the Muslim and Jewish cultural influences from there. Many ancient and medieval saints' writings are now considered by moderns today to be 'misogynistic,' because they frankly and honestly speak about woman's nature and proclivities. In traditional Christian belief, mankind's imperfection is derived from Original Sin, which derives from Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. Traditionally, it's been taught that the main fault was due to Eve, who, being a weak woman, was more easily seduced by the devil, and that the only reason all mankind was saddled with the consequences was because Adam, a man, should have known better than to give in to his wife. If Adam had not eaten the fruit, Eve's sin would have remained with her, but because she seduced him into joining her in the act, they both fell from grace, and their sin passed on to their children.

Post: #8

I can only speak for Canada but Ive seen dudes get weaker and weaker over the years and the only thing to blame for it is watching too much television. No one talks about religion here.

Post: #9

(03-22-2013 07:22 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Yeah, but the bible also lets it be known that men are superior and that the women should obey their men. So I just don't see it. And I'm not even Christian, so I have no reason to back up the bible in the instance. If anything I would say it supports masculinity in many instances and undermines femininity.

I'm just talking about the central message of the religion, which has nothing to do with women, but which DOES explain WHY feminists have chosen the "we are so oppressed" rhetoric. In a confucian culture, they might have said something like "women are so deferential to authority," which (just like the claim the original western feminists made) would have some basis in reality. Rememer: white knighting is not JUST something people do with women, you can also "white knight" foreign cultures for example.

Post: #10

(03-22-2013 06:18 PM)RawGod Wrote:  Great post, and while the point is largely philosophical rather than practical, the manosphere needs to be reminded that "feminism" didn't spring up out of nothing forty or a hundred years ago.

Nietszche first made this critique of Christianity (and Judaism). Essentially, the ancient Hebrews first developed the idea that they were weak and oppressed because they were chosen by God and this meme has reproduced and evolved.

I agree that Western society is the child of this victimhood as moral power meme, although as Nietszche points out there are competitor impulses in Western culture.

Nietszche called this slave morality as compared to the master morality of the Greeks and Romans. If the people who oppresses me are powerful and mighty, then a way to get back at those people is to make the traits they have (being powerful and mighty) to be evil and the opposite of what they are to be good. A modern version of this would be all those teen shows and movies from the 80 and 90s that dealt with high school life where the people who were at the top of the social structure (the jocks and the like) were depicted as huge assholes while the social outcasts were the good guys. Maybe my middle school and high school experiences were an aberration but I recall the popular kids being pretty nice and pleasant. The biggest assholes and bullies on the other hand were the people whose social status wasn't so secure - these people would pick on the who were the bottom barrel of the high school social hierarchy as way to give themselves a quick ego boost and to make sure that they themselves wouldn't fall to the bottom barrel position. Anyways the point I wanted to make is that you know the people who were behind these TV shows and movies were most likely not the popular kids in high school. Instead they were most likely the sniveling, artsy kids that wrote bad poetry and tried to make themselves seem unique through their brand of teenage nihilism. When these kids became adults and have an opportunity to create works based on their high school experiences they ended up casting those who were seen as the beautiful people to be the villains while people like them became the heroes.

It's a huge ironic twist that what was used by Nietszche to criticize Christianity can be used to criticize the secular, politically progressive anti-religious types. I've noticed a lot of leftists hate what is powerful and strong just because it is powerful and champion the weak and downtrodden just because they are weak - never mind their actual virtues. Homosexuals, non-white races, the poor and the like are automatically assigned moral superiority just because of their low status and not because of anything they might have done.

Post: #11

Well there is the story of Lillith too which was Adam's original wife. She was his equal and a feminist. I don't remember why she got banished from eve, probably for speaking in tongues or about feminist bull shit, but she got kicked out. She ended up eating babies. Eve was the next one who was meant to be inferior since she is derived from a man via the rib.

I bet there is tons more red pill wisdom in Talmud, Torah (old testament) and other Jewish texts. There are far more rules and regulations in general in Judaism over Christianity so I would expect there would be quite a bit involved in being head of a household.

Post: #12

Christian weakness is greatly exaggerated since Western culture managed to still conquer the world. The Americans defeated the Nazis who followed the brutal Nietzschean philosophy. It really didn't make them tougher and Nietzche went crazy. My theory is that the current malodies of the West are created by too much physical prosperity which twists the minds and values of a pampered elite. Thus, their concerns turn to causes which actually tend to degrade society such as feminism, veganism, and gay rights. Millions of people still go hungry at night and the least of their concern is gay rights. However, this issue totally dominates the American media which is the current pet concern of the perverted elites.

Post: #13

(03-23-2013 01:16 AM)kbell Wrote:  Well there is the story of Lillith too which was Adam's original wife. She was his equal and a feminist. I don't remember why she got banished from eve, probably for speaking in tongues or about feminist bull shit, but she got kicked out. She ended up eating babies. Eve was the next one who was meant to be inferior since she is derived from a man via the rib.

I bet there is tons more red pill wisdom in Talmud, Torah (old testament) and other Jewish texts. There are far more rules and regulations in general in Judaism over Christianity so I would expect there would be quite a bit involved in being head of a household.

I took a Judaism class in college, the question of women being inferior came up via the mark of the covenant being restricted to men (circumcision). Some girl said the her rabbi told her that women needed no such ritual because it was assumed how special women were or some such bull shit. All the girls ate that shit up except for the professor who was a woman with a great bull shit detector.

Post: #14

(03-24-2013 01:10 AM)Sherman Wrote:  Christian weakness is greatly exaggerated since Western culture managed to still conquer the world. The Americans defeated the Nazis who followed the brutal Nietzschean philosophy.

*The Russians defeated the Nazis with a small part due to American help.

The Russians at the time being anything but pillars of Western morality, I think it's hard to infer that American/Christian weakness had anything to do with the outcome.