Post: #26

America will become like Black America??? The worst parts of Black America???

Call me crazy but I think that sounds pretty ignorant. In order for the rest of us to become like the worst parts of Black America we would all have to be moved to another continent and enslaved for a couple hundred years, be cut off from education, jobs, real estate, and wealth building for a couple hundred years, and then be returned to mainstream society will no education, capital, family structure, or collective culture/momentum.

Then we would all have to go prison at higher rates then other cultures and be exposed to drugs and violence at higher rates then other cultures.

And, all of us would probably have to lose a bit of hope and view ourselves as inferior.

If that happens, we might become like the worst parts of Black America.

It's really an "apples and oranges" type of situation. A bad analogy.

It took White-Americans, Latino-Americans, and Asian-Americans hundreds or thousands of years to get to the point that they are at now. And, now all these cultures are going to be reduced to the level of "ghetto" Blacks???

Sounds like a bit of a stretch to me.

(01-04-2013 09:35 AM)tenderman100 Wrote:  Today, in 2012, it has never been a better time for an African American male to get an education and decide to enter mainstream economic life.

I agree. There has never been a better time to be a Black man. When would you rather be born? 100 years ago? 1000 years ago?

-----

Okay, now let me pick on some White guys..

(01-03-2013 10:42 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Here's a good case in point: During times of slavery, black family values were strong!

How can you have family values if you are a slave? Slaves didn't have any rights or power to keep their families together..?

If the slave owner wants to break up the slave family, what can the slave do to keep his family together? Nothing, he is a slave!

I'm curious why you think black slaves had good family values? Is there any historical mention of this?

How would you even know this? Did you read this somewhere? Got any sources?

(01-04-2013 01:49 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Thus how could the blacks be victims of a lighter form of racism if the consequences of said racism are actually worse than they were under the harsher forms of racism?

Ockham's razor says racism cannot be an issue here.

Im not a smart as you guys but I'm trying to follow this..

So, because blacks supposedly had good family values during slavery(which I doubt), racism in more modern times could not be a factor in the current wealth gap between blacks and whites??

Am I reading that right??

Probably not, please clarify your point here..

It sounds like you are saying that racism was not a factor in the destruction of the black american family unit and the current wealth gap between blacks and whites???

Post: #27

(01-04-2013 11:18 AM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  I always kept "2 circles" of friends...the academic ones and the non-academic/same-ole-negative-cultural ones.

Some people are making it sound like this phenomenon is exclusive to the Black community.

I had to deal with the same thing. I had my athletic friends, my smart friends, and my neighborhood friends. The athletic kids thought the smart kids were nerdy and less cool. The smart kids thought the athletes were dumb neanderthals, the neighborhood kids thought everyone besides them was soft. I moved in all 3 circles.

I made sure I didn't act too smart around the athletes and neighborhood kids because they would say I was a pussy.

I made sure I didn't act too dumb around the smart kids because I would lose credibility with them.

It's not only blacks that have to deal with this, its everybody.

----

Another one is this issue of "bad boys".

White chicks like bad boys too. Latina chicks like bad boys too. We all have to deal with girls liking bad boys.

It's not only a black issue.

Post: #28

(01-04-2013 03:06 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  America will become like Black America??? The worst parts of Black America???

No, like Black America as a whole.

Taken as a whole, the Black American community deals with the problems I indicated in that article to a greater degree than do other communities. There are greater rates of criminality, illegitimacy, and academic failure (among other things) within the community as a whole than in other communities taken as a whole.

My point is that, when taken as a whole, these other communities will be getting closer to Black America. This means that when we begin comparing these communities and standing their rates for some of these social indicators (ex: illegitimacy, criminality, dropout rate, educational gender gap, etc) side by side for the groups as a whole, we could potentially find that these gaps are getting smaller.

Quote:Call me crazy but I think that sounds pretty ignorant.

Only if you're not able to grasp the numbers and the concept's broader, macro focus.
Ex: The black male high school graduation rate is just under 50%. The white male rate is around 80%.

Conclusion: As a whole, Black America has a lower male graduation rate than does white America. Black american males, taken as a whole, are being more marginalized academically at the secondary level than their white peers, as they're failing to get diplomas.

This is a general trend. I am not focusing on "the worst parts" of black America or any other community, nor am I going to focus on "the best parts" of any group. That characterization of my argument is false, and leads you into engagement with strawmen for much of your post.

I am analyzing this from a macro level, as that is the only way to get a good grasp of the broad effects of these trends.
Taken as a whole, the gap between White and Black America exists and could be closing. That's the point.

Quote:Some people are making it sound like this phenomenon is exclusive to the Black community.

Absolutely nobody has made that statement.

What has been put forward, however, is the notion that this phenomenon exerts a greater impact in the black community than other communities (particularly the white and Asian ones), and that individual blacks are touched by it on a more regular and impactful basis than others are, on average.

We have reams of anecdotal evidence for this reality, and plenty of empirical data as well.

Quote:White chicks like bad boys too. Latina chicks like bad boys too. We all have to deal with girls liking bad boys.

It's not only a black issue.

We did not say that black American women were the only women on Earth who had a penchant for thug worship and a propensity to dislike betas.
We said that they are simply more likely to have that propensity to engage in thug worship and less likely than others to show a tolerance for your typical beta male.

We then implied that a particularly academically inclined black male in the United States who comes closer to resembling his white/asian peers in temperament than most of his black peers has a much harder time than an otherwise similar white/asian male would in his own community.

You also made some arguments on the blog that I would like to address:

Quote:How many years, if any, have you lived in a black american community?

About 14 years.

Quote:The pictures in this post do not represent black America. These pictures represent a small, minority of dysfunctional black youth. The worst of the worst. Not an accurate portrayal of the culture. A misleading portrayal of the culture actually.

These pictures do not need to represent every black american. They need to represent the point I was making, which is as follows:
4. What happens when men in a certain culture are marginalized and their households become largely matriarchal?

The point of that section was to document the result of matriarchy (disappearance of black male role models) and the impact it has had on black males. I posit that this impact has been such that it has caused young men to rebel, lash out, and look for entirely nonconstructive ways of expressing their masculinity, and to do these things to a greater and more damaging extent than their peers (hence higher rates of black male criminality, academic reticence, etc).

The gang culture, which is probably the most visible and direct outgrowth of this development, just seemed to symbolize this whole dynamic the best in photographic form. I was hoping that the gangs themselves in the first two photos were obvious enough (clearly crips and bloods) that folks wouldn’t generalize too much (ex: “those are crips and bloods!” not “those are some violent young black guys!”-the first reaction is clearly more specific).

I originally considered just putting some pictures of young, tatted up black dudes standing around, but realized that this would not make my point very well. The gang culture is a direct consequence of the dynamic I was talking about, and it therefore made much more sense to use photographs that referenced it.

Quote:Hip hop culture has only existed since the 1980′s. Black culture goes way deeper then that.

Most of the developments I have been outlining are also recent phenomenons. Culture's change.

Quote:Isn’t that “Bow-Wow” and “Solider Boy”??? Two hardworking and successful young black dudes? They are rappers, they are in costume.

They are individuals whose conduct and popularity symbolize many of the issues I have been mentioning.
That "costume" only resonates with black america today for the reasons I've been discussing.

Quote:In the 1950′s, black guys were on their best behavior because they didn’t want to end up hanging from a tree.

I do not buy the notion that only extreme, violent and borderline genocidal racism can coax blacks into holding a general preference for maintaining good dress and conduct, and that said racism was the only reason blacks maintained that conduct in the past.

I think that actually sounds kind of racist.

Quote:To answer the question of “what happened”..

#1 – fashion changed
#2 – the culture changed
#3 – black superstars were created
#4 – individual expression exploded

What actually happened:

1. Drugs
2. Welfare and Feminism
3. Racism

Quote:The world is a much different place. That’s what happened.

A simple, vague argument that does nothing to dig into why things are the way they are. You are comfortable with these, but they are useless to me.

The world changed-we all know that.

What we are discussing is a) how precisely did black america change (not all communities changed in the same way), b) how wider societal changes had an impact on black america specifically as compared to other communities (and why that variation exists), c) how specifically these changes interacted to produce the outcomes we see and d) what black america can tell us about how other communities could also change.

I'm attempting to foster discussion about these deeper questions. Your proposed explanation here doesn't allow for that to be possible, nor does it allow for any accurate, constructive analysis to take place.

Post: #29

(01-04-2013 03:20 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(01-04-2013 11:18 AM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  I always kept "2 circles" of friends...the academic ones and the non-academic/same-ole-negative-cultural ones.

Some people are making it sound like this phenomenon is exclusive to the Black community.

I had to deal with the same thing. I had my athletic friends, my smart friends, and my neighborhood friends. The athletic kids thought the smart kids were nerdy and less cool. The smart kids thought the athletes were dumb neanderthals, the neighborhood kids thought everyone besides them was soft. I moved in all 3 circles.

I made sure I didn't act too smart around the athletes and neighborhood kids because they would say I was a pussy.

I made sure I didn't act too dumb around the smart kids because I would lose credibility with them.

It's not only blacks that have to deal with this, its everybody.

----

Another one is this issue of "bad boys".

White chicks like bad boys too. Latina chicks like bad boys too. We all have to deal with girls liking bad boys.

It's not only a black issue.

Spot on dude. Bad boys are liked by all cultures. Once a woman realizes she messed up, she will end up choosing a mate that she would have never considered 5 years go. Ex:Roosh V Forum > Main > Everything Else > What is your opinion on this? (Guy taking responsibility for another mans child)

Post: #30

(01-04-2013 06:14 PM)tomtud Wrote:  Spot on dude. Bad boys are liked by all cultures.

Once again, nobody opposed this claim. We merely pointed out degrees of difference (bad boy worship being more extreme in black america than many other communities) and noted that these degrees of difference/gaps could be closing (ex: increasing bad boy worship in the white community).

Post: #31

The white race got extremely lucky with horses. That is all.

Post: #32

Okay - so Black America is horrible. We get it.
Is there any hope or are you saying we're all fucked?

Post: #33

To me, having white/mainstream America starting to experience the same mindset of Black America STILL does not help Black America.

Why?...Because (and 100% no fault of white/mainstream America) I am starting to see more and more black folks use the "well it is happening to white folks too" or "white folks do it too".

No offense to any non-black on this board but....I DON'T CARE what negative things that white/mainstream America do to themselves. If something is counter-productive then it is counter-productive. It burns me up (I need to go to the hater's lounge on this) when I hear my folks use "well it is happening to white/mainstream America too" to somehow justify a negative action.

Post: #34

(01-04-2013 06:52 PM)IQVX Wrote:  Okay - so Black America is horrible. We get it.
Is there any hope or are you saying we're all fucked?

I think the first step in dealing with a problem is recognising it's a problem which Athlone has done well in his article.

We have to stop making excuses but we also have to recognise that issues exist and take a systematic approach to dealing with them.

Post: #35

Im not jumping on here to argue with you guys but i wanted to say something:

My attitude has always been adapting to whatever environment you live, i never liked the complaining attitude. Observing and complaining about the negative state of something doesnt help much (specially in this context). You either leave your environment if you dont like it or you adapt yourself for that environment.

The girls only want to date guys with tatoos? Get yourself a tatoo.

The girls only date bad boys? Imitate the bad boys. Copy how they dress, how they speak, how they act, learn to be an actor, knowing how to act will help you a lot (im not saying that you need to carry that attitude everywhere you go, you dont want to act like a street cat in a job interview).

These negativities that you see in black communities always benefit the black guys that are smarter than the average black men. The majority of black men didnt go to university? Good news for you, less competition for you, more jobs for you to choose, you become one of the few black cats qualified to date high quality black women (with good jobs and degree), you have more money than the average black men. You will be killing competition in every way if you know how to take advantage of this situation (be at home or overseas). You immerse yourself in learning other languages, you go travel to other countries, you become a rare product when you are overseas (black westerner, educated, cash in your pocket, fluent in different languages, interested in dating women from other cultures). How many black americans do you see when you are travelling abroad? Probably not that many. Its easier for you to meet white americans travelling to other countries than a black american. In some cases, in terms of novelty is better for you to be a black american than a white american. Some local women are "tired" of meeting the typical white gringo, these local women see the guy that looks like the guys in american hiphop videos/american movies is game over.

Imagine if 90% of black men were educated and ambitious as you? Competition would be fierce. You want to have an easier life. I dont want to see that many gringos travelling to the countries where i travel, i want my novelty to last a long time. If other black cats are not ambitious as us, its their problem, we are taking advantage of these opportunities.

Im not saying that you should be happy with the current situation of black communities but if you cant change it, take advantage of the situation.

This black community flaw is actually good for you. The smart should always take advantage of negative states or ignorance (careful in interpreting this sentence, i dont want to sound too extreme).

During the credit crunch, some people lost everything they had while some people made a fortune that they never had. Take advantage of these negative situations.

Post: #36

(01-04-2013 06:18 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(01-04-2013 06:14 PM)tomtud Wrote:  Spot on dude. Bad boys are liked by all cultures.

Once again, nobody opposed this claim. We merely pointed out degrees of difference (bad boy worship being more extreme in black america than many other communities) and noted that these degrees of difference/gaps could be closing (ex: increasing bad boy worship in the white community).

EXACTLY AND ITS FAAAAARRRRR MOOORRREEEE EXTREME!!! FAR MORE!!!

Post: #37

Pitt, I was thinking of getting some fake jewellery like Brian Pumper and start wearing a durag and a leather kilt to the clubs. I might kill it with the black lizards in this aspect...

Post: #38

Athlone, this article has really been making me ponder today. Thank you for penning it. A couple of interrelated questions I'd like to hear your thoughts on, if I may:

1. How did the tenets of the feminist ideology come to have such sway in the black community? How did it come to be so matriarchal? There has always been poverty, and it was hardly a new thing for blacks in America, so why did single motherhood become the norm? What caused American blacks to abandon their traditional ways of living in such numbers?

2. If the phenomena we deplore manifested themselves first in the black community due to a unique confluence of factors (feminism, poverty, racism) why are they now appearing in the white? My instinctive reply is that feminism is strengthening its stranglehold on the whites, encouraging men to 'drop out' of productive society, which is encouraged itself by the changing economic conditions making middle-class stable jobs harder to come by... But I wonder why blacks were so readily torn away from their old culture and thrust into a new one?

Post: #39

see below..

also see post #44

Post: #40

I don't want to make excuses but the biggest thing for me is the breakdown of the family unit. I have friends that come from single parent families and I would say they are different, they seem to lack the same drive. This is just an observation of the people I know, I will also add the same applies to people I know that had fathers who were in the house but did not really give a damn.
On the flipside, I know quite a few dudes who have children from different women, the joke is more times it has been a "accident" that has caused these pregnancies and we all know how the story goes.
Black people on a whole are a consumer race, our money feeds other races with the crap we buy. As they say "he who controls the money controls the people" and we are certainly being controlled.
The food thing is just ignorance, I understand some poor areas there is a lack of access to nutritious food. I am always amazed and the amount of junk food chain restaurants there are when I visit the USA. I guess this explains why blacks have such a high rate of diabetes. I think the obseity problem with women is because they are under more stress primarily having to raise our children, more times alone.
The good news is that we seem to have a good network of black men on this forum who are getting there shit right or simply have there stuff right. As people we have always been survivors and I feel this will always be the case.

Post: #41

Thanks for engaging...

(01-04-2013 06:09 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(01-04-2013 03:06 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  America will become like Black America??? The worst parts of Black America???

No, like Black America as a whole.

My point is that, when taken as a whole, these other communities will be getting closer to Black America.

So, America, as a whole, will become like Black America, as a whole?

I don't see it happening any time soon. I will give you obesity and hypergamy, but, to suggest that American culture, as a whole, will become parallel to Black American culture, as a whole -- that's unrealistic and sensationalistic, in my opinion.

I was a great title to attract attention to your post but I don't think America, as a whole will fall to the level of Black America in those statistical categories.

(06-06-2011 10:56 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  I am analyzing this from a macro level, as that is the only way to get a good grasp of the broad effects of these trends.
Taken as a whole, the gap between White and Black America exists and could be closing. That's the point.

Yes, in those categories, the statistical gap will likely close a bit.

However, I don't see American culture, as a whole, falling to the statistical levels of todays Black America. In fact, I see Black America getting a little better statistically, I see White America maintaining the top spot, I see Asian Americans making a strong push upwards, I see Latino Americans sending large numbers in all directions.


Things will look slightly different, but don't expect to see massive changes in social-racial hierarchy. Change is slow, as you know.

(01-04-2013 06:09 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Quote:Some people are making it sound like this phenomenon is exclusive to the Black community.

blacks are touched by it on a more regular and impactful basis than others are, on average.

Within their own communities, Black nerds have it worse then White or Asian nerds? 

That's likely true for the most part

However, Black nerds are making a big comeback right now!

Post: #42

(01-04-2013 08:32 PM)Ovid Wrote:  Athlone, this article has really been making me ponder today. Thank you for penning it. A couple of interrelated questions I'd like to hear your thoughts on, if I may:

1. How did the tenets of the feminist ideology come to have such sway in the black community? How did it come to be so matriarchal? There has always been poverty, and it was hardly a new thing for blacks in America, so why did single motherhood become the norm? What caused American blacks to abandon their traditional ways of living in such numbers?

1. Welfare: the structure of how the support was provided incentivized single motherhood and actually made the idea seem very plausible-it later became a meme among black women ("I don't need no man!!"). The idea that a father was unnecessary (supported by the feminists) became plausible when the government took the provider role.

2. Drugs: increased incarceration and death rates for males, taking more and more black men out of the picture and entrenching the matriarchy.

3. Racism: Shut out of blacks from GI Bill benefits, as well as redlining and other discrimination kept many blacks from achieving the american dream, entering the middle class and shielding themselves from the two factors I mentioned above. This kept more blacks in the lower class than there should have been, and accelerated the negative impact of the drugs and welfare/feminism.

Quote:2. If the phenomena we deplore manifested themselves first in the black community due to a unique confluence of factors (feminism, poverty, racism) why are they now appearing in the white?

White men are now increasingly being marginalized in a way that, before, only black and other minority men had been. Their women are increasingly their lead in education and employment, and the number of "eligible" white men is declining. Fewer and fewer white men are actually able to provide the way they once did.

More and more of them are being left behind without the security that American society gave them in prior generations (when they were acknowledged to be at the top of the racial totem pole and treated accordingly).

In response to this, a larger number of white women are beginning to consider more and more of their male counterparts to be superfluous in a way that black women had long ago started to view their own male counterparts (increased hypergamy, #3 on my list). They are adopting a more adversarial and at times hostile attitude to some of the men they encounter (#5 on my list) because, as their lead in education and employment grows, they begin to start thinking they are better than their men and really do not need them. The feminists do little to counter these notions, and in fact feed them.

This mentality has not taken over the white community yet, but it is a growing phenomenon there.

This is leading to an increase in the illegitimacy rate among whites (#2 on my list), as white women increasingly opt not to bother with the men they mate with on a long term basis.
More marginalized white men will also likely mean higher rates of white male criminality and drug abuse/dealing (#4 on my list).

Post: #43

(01-04-2013 08:21 PM)Moma Wrote:  Pitt, I was thinking of getting some fake jewellery like Brian Pumper and start wearing a durag and a leather kilt to the clubs. I might kill it with the black lizards in this aspect...

Hahahahahahaha please DO NOT do this. Most chicks find Pumper extremely corny and his style of dress is definitely not going to help you with any chick worth having.

Post: #44

(01-04-2013 06:09 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  [quote='Giovonny' pid='340855' dateline='1357330000']

Quote:How many years, if any, have you lived in a black american community?

About 14 years.

Okay, just making sure you have some experience in Black America. In the past you said you were British-Jamaican?

(01-04-2013 06:09 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  [quote='Giovonny' pid='340855' dateline='1357330000']

Quote:The pictures in this post do not represent black America. These pictures represent a small, minority of dysfunctional black youth. The worst of the worst. Not an accurate portrayal of the culture. A misleading portrayal of the culture actually.

These pictures do not need to represent every black american. They need to represent the point I was making, which is as follows:
4. What happens when men in a certain culture are marginalized and their households become largely matriarchal?

Your saying American culture will become more like the culture of those photographs?

These are scenes from the worst hoods in America. America will not look like this unless our society descends into anarchy.

Are you predicting anarchy?

Because if America becomes like Black America then we will have 50% drop out rates, no fathers, and 1 in 4 men in prison.

Which means we could be living in a near lawless society?

Is this your prediction?

Is Black America really our future?

I doubt it.

Post: #45

(01-04-2013 10:26 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Thanks for engaging...

(01-04-2013 06:09 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(01-04-2013 03:06 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  America will become like Black America??? The worst parts of Black America???

No, like Black America as a whole.

My point is that, when taken as a whole, these other communities will be getting closer to Black America.

So, America, as a whole, will become like Black America, as a whole?

I don't see it happening any time soon. I will give you obesity and hypergamy, but, to suggest that American culture, as a whole, will become parallel to Black American culture, as a whole -- that's unrealistic and sensationalistic, in my opinion.

Not what I said.

(01-04-2013 06:09 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  My point is that, when taken as a whole, these other communities will be getting closer to Black America.

They may or may not come to parallel black america. My point is that the gap will likely be closing in the future. They may not make it all the way there, but they will have gotten closer.

Quote:You think black women worship bad boys more then any other race of women? I don't know? I think its closer then you think.

I think there is a clear and BLATANT distinction between the levels of thug-worship in the Black American community and the levels seen in the vast majority of other communities (including those of black communities outside of the USA).

There may exist somewhere a community that matches that level, but on the whole Black americans are going to come out near the top and they CERTAINLY are tops within the United States. Black american women have the lowest tolerance for men who do not fit the urban stereotypes, especially when those men are black.

There have been bunches of black men with cross-cultural experience in this thread and on the blog backing up what I am saying-we are not idiots. The anecdotal and empirical data is there.

If you can't see this degree of difference, then I'm frankly done talking about it. I do not have the time to continue nitpicking the obvious and knocking down attempted rationalizations of obvious and negative trends in black america. If you want to minimize/ignore them, go ahead. They're not going away.

Quote:I wouldn't say its a Black thing.

Again, I did not claim that black american women were the only women on the planet with a penchant for thug worship. My argument dealt with the degree to which this thug worship takes place, which I think is extreme.

Quote:In the past you said you were British-Jamaican?

I am.

Quote:Your saying American culture will become more like the culture of those photographs?

These are scenes from the worst hoods in America. America will not look like this unless our society descends into anarchy.

I said that as the marginalization of other men accelerates there are going to be an increasingly large number of men from outside the black community who will engage in some of the actions you are seeing represented by those photographs (participation in gang culture, insubordination, violence, criminality, etc).

Those photographs represent the rebellion of young, disaffected males with very little going for them. Those males are going to become more common elsewhere-that's my point.

Post: #46

(01-04-2013 10:46 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Your saying American culture will become more like the culture of those photographs?

These are scenes from the worst hoods in America. America will not look like this unless our society descends into anarchy.

Are you predicting anarchy?

Because if America becomes like Black America then we will have 50% drop out rates, no fathers, and 1 in 4 men in prison.

Which means we could be living in a near lawless society?

Is this your prediction?

Is Black America really our future?

I doubt it.

No, he's not saying those extremes will become the norm. He's saying that those extremes will also become more prevalent in all of American culture than they are now. If we keep going down the path we're headed now, there will be a higher occurrence of this behavior in our population.

That's bad for everyone.

Will those extremes ever become commonplace? Will we become lawless?

I doubt it as well, but there's no way to know what will happen. If all of society became like those pockets of extreme in Black America, then yes, we would probably be defined as lawless. That would be anarchy sure. Hopefully and probably that will never happen.

But if not - if we simply start seeing the same percentage of uneducated males and men in prison, etc, it would still mean a society with major problems. Not completely lawless but one with some real social ills on their hands that would have an effect on everyone.

And aren't they commonplace enough in the doses that African American cultures sees them? Wouldn't they be if they existed to an equal extent in the entire population?

I didn't read Althone's article as making any assertions about what to do about these trends or what they meant regarding racism; he was simply stating that gang culture and other phenomenons, expressions and side effects of deeper issues, provide a strong example of what trends America as a whole can expect if the problems pointed out by the manosphere aren't taken care of soon.

I thought it was a great piece. I've long had the feeling that other pockets of society have begun to follow in the footsteps of African American society on this level. This piece gave a clear picture of some reasons why and a portrayal of what we can expect from this.

None of us are immune to the problems they face today; that much is for sure.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #47

Ok I LOVE THIS ARTICLE…love it. Athlone is fucking Genius!

But Let me add to some of these things
1.) A lot of women who look like this:





are considred to be overweight according to the government standards that rates obesity. Here are the charts





Not to say that girls pictured above cant loose a few pounds but understand that they are not considered “Obese” by most urban man standards, and is actually is considered sexy. Because I know women whose height and weight would make them a +30 on the governments BMI index but they get chased down in the streets by ALL MEN (black, white, Hispanic, Asian etc) who consider them sexy. So that is a cultural difference between what is acceptable in non-urban culture vs urban culture.

2.) The illegitimacy rate is an argument women can strike down by simply saying how is their fault men pick up and leave their children abandoned. To that I say, how many of these men were DEADBEATS when they chose to sleep with them.!

To me the argument lies in who they are lying down with. I would say that less than 10% of the men who are not actively in their children’s lives were actually RAN off by the women. The majority of those men are simply making a choice not to be in their children’s lives. Out of the 90% though I would break it down to 70% of them being Deadbeats, drug dealers, swagged out, players, thugs, bad boys etc.. meaning that the women KNEW exactly the kind of guy he was before they allowed him to penetrate them with his penis. In fact it was his Character (or lack thereof I should say) that made them sexually attracted to him in the first place! Only 20% of the men who are not actively in their child’s lives were not pushed out nor did they fit the “deadbeat/bad guy” mold and still dipped. I feel bad for those women but the majority of women I don’t.

3.) This quote is the shit right here:

Quote:The culture places a tremendous emphasis for men on the possession of traits matching those of urban masculine culture (read: “swag”, aggression, edgy appearance, etc).

How tremendous you ask? Let me show you a video. Here is a tall (6’3” – 6’4”), handsome, muscular black guy…speaking of HOW HARD IT IS FOR HIM to merely COMPLIMENT a woman in NY city. JUST COMPLIMENT! Let alone stop her for a conversation! Watch this





Why in the world WOULD it be SOOOO HARD for a guy that looks like him? That’s insane! But its Mainly in the black community where advantages of being tall, handsome and muscular DO NOT OUTWEIGHT being a bad boy/swagged out/thug/player etc/…not even by a long shot.
I showed in a previous post HERE how two young and attractive guys on Facebook hardly got any love, comments wise, for being muscular. But I can point out a thousand comments on a guy being sexy

He also explains to young guys to not White Knight a girl who has a DeadBeat Boyfriend or Baby Father and wants to put you into the LJBF (Lets Just Be Friends Category





now you have to ask yourself once again, how does a guy who looks like this get LJBF by women? I followed his story (he deleted some videos) on youtube and he complained about women, the attractive ones, only wanted to LJBF him (he took those videos down) Once again this does not happen with the same frequency and ferocity that it happens in the black community. As this blog post pointed out, by a white manosphere blogger working out and being clean shaven, it got him more women…not less or the same.

I have always said this but Rap Music prominently displays the perverse version of what success looks like. And although rap music did not create hypergamy in black women it was the accelerant…almost like pissing gasoline on the fire! It did the same for violence and drugs in our community. They don’t cause it but by promoting it they accelerate its prominence.

Once again the need to have money is EXPONENTIALLY far more important in our community than in others! Here is another YouTube video by a young and attractive black guy which I can summarize as Get Money to Get women





Now why would he have to make this video? Light skin, light eyes, attractive, funny, talented, works out, etc…why would HE of all people be preaching to get money before chasing women? Just as attractive women don’t really wave the feminist flag, guys who usually get women don’t preach the “you need money to get women” mantra. That is Because HE GOES THROUGH THE SAME THINGS I DO!!! And other relatively attractive and intelligent black men go through. That no matter how physically attractive you are, or how intelligent you are (as Athlone pointed out), if you don’t have Swag/Bad-boy or Money all those other characteristics are as good as dog shit. As a side note: I can bet that most of the white guys here were sneakers or shoes that show some signs of wear to them. And as long as they’re not beat down they can still “game” with them. I can tell you right now that a lot of black guys have new or like new sneakers/shoes on…and you know why? Because the women that are immediately available to us, via our culture, are EXTREME HYPERGAMOUS and game is pointless if your sneaks or shoes have more than a “Like New” wear to them.

4.) I do PARTIALLY believe that single parent households, mainly single women, do have a tendency to raise thugs and drop outs more than dual parent households in our community. But see my points above that have more to do with most of those children fathers being Deadbeats in the first place and should not have procreated.
But as far as academically? I don’t know. Women grow up without a father…how come they still perform better? I think the majority of men want to be the boss, most unsuccessfully, but they rather try to start a business versus working for someone and that spills over into our community as well. But also because the culture hostile to academia is only towards the men. Women love to boast about their accolades, where as men we don’t get credit for them unless it translates into actual money.

Ill have to finish the rest tomorrow.

Post: #48

That was a great article! Lots of stuff that makes perfect sense that I never even thought about before.

Post: #49

Phil E, those 2 women are wayyyy better than some flat chested flat ass woman any day.... Great videos. That cat makes a lot if sense.

Post: #50

I'm probably wrong but...

I'll respond anyways..

(01-04-2013 11:16 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  They may or may not come to parallel black america.

Lets be honest, it will be a cold day in hell before America, as a whole, parallels Black America. The nation would have to erode to a point of having 1 out every 4 men in the legal system, 50% high school drop-out rate, and 70% illegitimacy rates. That would be near anarchy. Not gonna happen any time soon.

But, I know, you are not saying that. You are only saying that things will somewhat balance out statistically.

Then why do you have all these pictures of guys with guns???

Your pictures make it seem like we are headed for tribal warfare. They don't show gradual change. They show total cultural erosion.

(01-04-2013 11:16 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  There may exist somewhere a community that matches that level, but on the whole Black americans are going to come out near the top and they CERTAINLY are tops within the United States

Okay, I can't argue here. Black American women like bad boys. They really have few other options.

(01-04-2013 11:16 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  men from outside the black community who will engage in (participation in gang culture, insubordination, violence, criminality, etc).

More non-Black gangs? Thats what you are predicting?

More non-Black crime? More non-Black violence? What are you basing that on?

Current figures show violent crime going down.

What makes you think Whites, Latinos, and Asians will commit more crime in the future?

Because men are getting more frustrated?

Here is what I see men doing as they get more frustrated:



The internet has changed everything. Instead of going outside to fraternize, boys are now going online. Frustrations can be vented online! Connections made. Support found.

Why join a gang when porn is free?

I predict masturbation will skyrocket!

Seriously!

In my opinion, your article was overly sensationalized. There is no evidence that obesity is still going up, it seems to have leveled off. Illegitimacy will certainly go up because no one wants to get married anymore.

As far as crime and violence, these seem to be at all time lows. Anti-male attitudes may be on the rise but at the end of the day, all women want a man. Everybody will still need sex and there will be plenty of opportunities for guys with game.

I'll give you hypergamy. Which has always existed.

Of your 5 points, 2 are trending opposite of your prediction (obesity, violence)

I don't think things are as dire as you make them seem. I'm surprised you are so pessimistic about the direction of America.

Now, if I can only get Samseau to answer my questions!