Post: #101

(07-13-2012 08:24 PM)joehoya Wrote:  I think you are missing something critical. Affirmative action isn't an attempt for liberal whites to maintain the upper hand against conservative whites. What affirmative action REALLY does is provide an excuse wealthy elites give to poor and middle class whites as to why they are not succeeding.

Absolute nonsense. That statement completly contradicts what the universities are saying themselves.

This from Princeton.

Quote:Princeton University researchers have found that ignoring race in elite college admissions would result in sharp declines in the numbers of African Americans and Hispanics accepted with little gain for white students.

In a study published in the June issue of Social Science Quarterly, authors Thomas Espenshade and Chang Chung examined the controversial notion that eliminating affirmative action would lead to the admission of more white students to college and found it to be false. The assertion that qualified white students are being displaced by less qualified minority students was a prime plaintiff argument in the 2003 U.S. Supreme Court cases against the University of Michigan (Gratz v. Bollinger and Grutter v. Bollinger).

"We're trying to put these admission preferences in context so people understand that lots of students, including those with SAT scores above 1500, are getting a boost," said Espenshade, the professor of sociology who co-authored "The Opportunity Cost of Admission Preferences at Elite Universities" with Chung, a senior technical staff member in the Office of Population Research. "The most important conclusion is the negative impact on African American and Hispanic students if affirmative action practices were eliminated."

According to the study, without affirmative action the acceptance rate for African-American candidates likely would fall nearly two-thirds, from 33.7 percent to 12.2 percent, while the acceptance rate for Hispanic applicants likely would be cut in half, from 26.8 percent to 12.9 percent. While these declines are dramatic, the authors note that the long-term impact could be worse.

"If admitting such small numbers of qualified African-American and Hispanic students reduced applications and the yield from minority candidates in subsequent years, the effect of eliminating affirmative action at elite universities on the racial and ethnic composition of enrolled students would be magnified beyond the results presented here," the report says.

The authors also cite other studies and the actual experience of the University of California system where affirmative action has been eliminated: "The impacts are striking. Compared to the fall of 1996, the number of underrepresented minority students admitted to the University of California-Berkeley Boalt Hall Law School for the fall of 1997 dropped 66 percent from 162 to 55.... African-American applicants were particularly affected as their admission numbers declined by 81 percent from 75 to 14, but acceptances of Hispanics also fell by 50 percent. None of the 14 admitted African-American students chose to enroll. Of the 55 minority students admitted, only seven enrolled in the fall of 1997, a falloff that had the effect of reducing the underrepresented minority share in the first year class to 5 percent in 1997 compared with 26 percent in 1994."

Just wondering why so many believe that affirmative action has little to no impact on enrollment figures?

And how do you come to the conclusion that its nothing more than a conspiracy of some sort to spare the feelings of whites who missed out? Unless of course the Princeton studies I just posted are in on the whole conspiracy?

Affirmative Action is a fact of life now. We have it here too for Aboriginal and Polynesian kids. Same in NZ. Same in the UK. Without it, non white and non asian enrollment rates plummet.

Accept it for what it is, please dont try and wrap it up in cotton wool. At the same time, lets not suggest that its about sparing anyones feelings other than your own when you come to conclusions like that.

Its intellectually dishonest.

Post: #102

(07-14-2012 05:27 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  Just wondering why so many believe that affirmative action has little to no impact on enrollment figures?

When did anyone say that?

Harry, I never once said that there are no African Americans or Latinos that benefit from Affirmative Action. In fact, in more than one post I acknowledged that there where some African Americans that only got in because of Affirmative Action.

My contention is that whites VASTLY over estimate the impact of affirmative action on their chances for admissions to elite universities. In fact, the study you cited demonstrates exactly that.

Quote:Removing consideration of race would have little effect on white students, the report concludes, as their acceptance rate would rise by merely 0.5 percentage points.

So spare me the white pity party. It is, as you so aptly termed, intellectually dishonest. The real group that affirmative action hurts is Asians, not whites. If you want to see the results of what happens when a school gets rid of ALL affirmative action and ALL subjective means of evaluation applicants (e.g. grades, extra curricular activities, interviews, legacy status, etc), we have a perfect example in the U.S.. It is Stuyvesant High School in New York City. This is the ELITE public high school in the city. Entrance is gained SOLELY based on test scores, with no consideration given for affirmative action.

What are the results. Well first lets look at the demographics of New York City. It is 33% White, 12.7% Asian, 28.6% Hispanic and 23% Black.

What are the demographics of Stuyvesant? 72.05% Asian, 23.55% White, 1.21% Black, and 2.43% Hispanic.

In fact, I am going to take it a step further. For the most part, there are really only two groups that suffer due to Affirmative Action. The first is obviously Asians. The second are those African Americans and Latinos WHO COULD HAVE GOTTEN INTO THE SCHOOL WITHOUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION. Our degrees forever have this invisibile asterisk next to it that says "Maybe he only got in because of Affirmative Action." What am I supposed to do to counter that, staple my SATs to every job application? Should I tell people my test scores and GPA every time I mention what school I went to, so people realized that I "deserved" to go there?

I used to be pissed about this when I was younger. Now, I just write it off. Focusing on complaining how bad things are is a waste of time and the sign of a loser. My time is better spent making things happen in my life. EVERYBODY has challenges they have to overcome, some have fewer challenges, some just have different challenges. That is just life. Getting pissed about it doesn't do any good. Instead, adapt to your environment and excel in your situation.