(05-16-2019 08:22 PM)911 Wrote: Trump is mostly right about his tough approach to trade with China, they've had their way too long, aided by the fact that American globalists like the Rockefellers, Waltons and Desmarais were cashing in on gutting their countries' industrial heartlands and outsourcing to China.
There is a lot of ground to make up there, this phenomenon has been in place since the 1980s/90s, but a national industrial policy is a good thing, better late than never. The problem however now is that the industrial and trade agenda is almost overshadowed by the budding global geopolitical superpower rivalry, so there is a whole different dynamic there than say, negotiating trade with the EU or Japan.
(05-14-2019 10:26 PM)The Black Knight Wrote: (05-14-2019 08:55 PM)Fortis Wrote: I'm expected to believe they'll be competing with German and Japanese quality standards but they can't even properly manage to put a package on a doorstep without fucking that up tremendously 20% of the time?
It's my understanding that the Japanese in the 50's and somewhat into the 60's had bad quality on their exports.
It's also my understanding that South Korea a few decades ago had really bad quality control problems as well.
Both the Japanese and South Koreans seem to be doing really good now and have been doing good for some time; especially given where they were not too long ago (relatively speaking).
Is there anything to indicate that China won't have relative rapid improvement in their business practices and quality control standards like Japan and South Korea?
Japan had a cultural tradition of fine craftsmanship and group cohesion. They also looked up to American industry, studying and applying the quality control science from American leaders like William Edwards Deming, perfecting this system. Deming was far more known and revered in Japan than he ever was in America.
Fortis is right about the Chinese corner-cutting/free for all money grab mentality. They've also had an ancient tradition of fine craftsmanship, in fact the Chinese invented standardized mass production, along with the Benedictine monks in medieval Europe (though the Chinese operations were larger). That mastery was behind the early Chinese empire, through for instance the development of mass-produced metal crossbows with standardized parts and design. But that tradition was lost with the communists, who have purged their bourgeoisie and its heritage. They're slowly rebuilding it, through corporate organizations like Huawei that have been fostering across the board excellence.
I have absolutely no clue about international trade. But I have some experience with buying certain things from China and Asia - namely - guitars.
Some of you may find this interesting. It is related to what you are talking about. I'll be going just from memory here so may get a few details wrong, but it will still illustrate the wider point I am making:
Houses rise and fall
Back in the 50's there was this American company called 'Fender'. They produced the first Stratocaster in '54. They were American designed and made. They were on the whole pretty superb guitars. Then the company would sell out to CBS about a decade later and quality control went downhill. Pre-CBS guitars can easily go for 20-30K dollars these days.
Partly because of their rarity and re-sale value, but partly because one in decent condition is still one of the best examples of this instrument that can be found - to play, the sound of it.
When CBS took over it was what all that takeover stuff was about: profit, cutting corners, loss of previous expertise. They weren't bad guitars, but they weren't as good. Then they became quite shoddy...
The Japanese being the cheeky buggers they are decided to do a knock-off of the Stratocaster. In the beginning they weren't so good, but after a little while, those clever and industrious Japanese presented the Fender company with a problem - they were producing guitars of a much more noticably higher quality and at a cheaper price!
Something had to be done.
Enter the fabled 'lawsuit' era. There was not lawsuit as such but there was probably a 'cease and desist'. They sort of came to a Gentleman's agreement. Ok, you can keep on copying our guitars, but you can't copy the headstock. We will consider that copyright infringement and we will sue. So to this day, whenever you buy a Fender copy (unless it is by Squier which is owned by Fender) it will always have a slightly different shaped headstock. The same for all guitars in fact, not just Fender.
Basically the Japanese had created a nice little industry for themselves by taking other's ideas and bettering them, if not in design, then at least manufacturing quality. It was cheeky but it paid off. It was the wild west back then when it came to global guitar manufacture.
So good were the Japanese in fact, and so unable were the Americans to match the quality at that price point, the Fender company said 'fuck it' - let's just get the Japs to make the guitars for us, and we'll stick our badge on the top, and we'll all get a cut and make a nice profit.
A fine example of outsourcing your manufacturing base, but more for necessity rather than greed. The Americans for whatever reason just couldn't keep up with the pace of progress being made at that time. Automation was coming in as well don't forget, even late 70', early 80's - automation is always 'coming in' - see the precursor to the computer: the Jacquard Loom.
https://mccarlgallery.wordpress.com/2013...-computer/
Some of those guitars made in that era are considered up there with the best ever manufactured. I owned one myself. It was a Squier with 'made by FENDER' on the headstock. They stopped that after a while because people who had paid 300 bucks more for the Fender name didn't think someone who paid 300 bucks less should get to join the exclusive party. Maybe they thought it made their guitars sound worse, who knows...
It was a great guitar. Even today they go for about 600 quid plus if you can find a good one - an '81 Squier Strat made in Japan. If you like this sort of thing, this is a good link:
https://planetbotch.blogspot.com/2011/12...trats.html
But still those other pesky Japs wanted in on the act and other companies like Tokai started making copies. Again, considered to be among the best of the class. Today they go for high prices. They aren't all superb of course, but many are very good. Guitars are built in batches. You get good ones and you get bad ones.
Guitar provenance itself is a very murky world. I've researched it quite a bit along with some others. It's confused by the fact that most often companies do not tell you what country your guitar is made in. Some companies like Ibanez don't even make guitars, they just license the name and build most of them in a Japanese factory. Well, more like the factory just builds the guitars and puts the Ibanez name on them. See Hoshino Gakki. This company is over a century old.
After a little while you had a few factories set up to manufacture guitars to a very high standard, like Matsumoko, in Matsumoto. More famously known for the Aria Pro II brand name. Today these guitars can go for very good prices, even the lesser known brand names built there like Westone. Incredible guitars to play and in sound, and even with a few innovations thrown in for good measure.
Fender pretty much turned a blind eye as they were turning a profit and I guess they thought imitation is the best form of flattery as long as it didn't effect their bottom line.
But it wasn't just the Japanese that wanted in on the act.
A guitar is a relatively simple thing to make. It's also something that will always sell.
If you want to see what an up and coming industrial nation is, then look at the ones making the best guitars for the cheapest price. It's leveled out a bit now with saturation of the guitar market and a drop in overall sales, but it was certainly true back then and up to relatively recently.
The next country that wanted in on the act was Korea. They undercut the cost of guitars made in Japan which by now were creeping up in price because of their higher status (they were no longer looked upon as 'cheap'). But if you supply a better product for even just a slightly better price, human nature dictates that people will buy it. Again, the guitars weren't great to start with, but pretty soon those Korean guitars were 'good enough' and the 'price was right'.
But as the quality crept up along with the price and with higher labour costs (don't forget these industries work off practically slave labour - dangerous conditions for peasant wages), other countries again decided they wanted a piece of the pie.
Next up was Indonesia. A few rich people put the capital in to tooling costs, they cut down a few trees and went at it. Fuck the poor sods breathing in all those nasty paint fumes and lacquer. Same as it ever was.
Houses rise and fall
Are you beginning to notice a pattern here?
Nowadays any cheap guitar you buy will still be made in either Indonesia or Korea and with better quality models being built in Japan. In fact, Japan is now known for making the best instruments on the planet. The Aria Pro II company that is still going makes guitars in Korea and Indonesia, but it also makes them in Japan, doing high end models that sell for as much as a real Fender, but better quality, some say. I've even caught them making a Super-Strat in Japan that is terrible quality, so they make cheap guitars there as well as expensive ones. Actually I managed to get it up to speed in no time, but it's probably the worst example of a guitar set up I've ever experienced.
Moral of this story? Even the Japs have their quality control issues. And even the Japs outsource their manufacture to countries that can undercut the wages they would have to pay to 'craftsmen' for high quality work.
I can tell you, there are some seriously good guitar makers in Indonesia. It's mostly one factory actually, and they even make Fenders there! But don't tell anyone. Fender don't!
Guitars (like a lot of things) are made in batches remember. Sometimes you just want to get them out the door and start a new batch.
But what about China? Didn't they get in on the lucrative guitar market I hear you ask. Yes, they did. In fact, I just unboxed one I bought last year. It's a Squier (Fender) Stratocaster from the mid '90's I believe. Around the time when Fender started manufacturing them there.
This guitar is absolutely superb. The neck, the hardware, the paint job (though it's chipped and looks reliced now) and most of all the Pick ups. As any guitar bod will tell you the pups are always where manufacturers cut corners, but not here. This is a guitar that cries out: I want you to take me seriously. I want to show to you that I am as good as any other guitar made by Fender/Squier anywhere else in the world. And it does.
The pick ups on this guitar are among the highest quality I have ever heard on any instrument. It's not hard to build a good pick up, but it's easy to cut corners and build a cheap one. Usually by underwinding them which makes them sound shrill. It only saves a few cents, but it's a common bugbear with cheap instruments.
I also have another almost identical Red Strat made in China that cost me like 60 quid. It's also a superb guitar for the money. Really, I love it. And guess what? The pick ups on that sound pretty good too! You can hardly even buy a set of pups for 60 quid, so how did that whole guitar get made for that price and transported to this country?
Fender are still making guitars in China today I believe. They did up until very recently anyway. They are very good guitars.
With advances in automation it's not hard to build a good guitar today. CNC machines get programmed and years of knowing what works gives the experience to provide a very good instrument for not very much money. Stuff like painting them though and quality control is still done by hand and human. They will probably automate the painting soon if they haven't already. Quality control will always need to be done by humans.
Most higher quality cheaper guitars however seem to be built in Indonesia where they are happy to turn a bit more of a blind eye to the slave labour and working conditions. Pay your workers less, turn more profit. Eradicate your workers as much as you can via automation, turn more profit again. But QC has to be maintained, and this is where corners are cut if the strict oversight is not there.
I thought about getting some of my designs made up there, but I decided against it. Too much hassle. Fender and big companies can ensure quality control as it is vital to their brand image. I mean, no one is going to buy a guitar with 'Made in China' on it if it isn't at least as good as any other one (for the price).
And I'd only be getting a batch of a few dozen made up maybe, if that. Too much risk.
In the end it comes down to shipping costs and available markets.
Just like those workers who sang about being good enough to weave the cloth on those aforementioned looms, but not 'good' (i.e. rich) enough to wear it (i.e. buy it), many of these people making these instruments would never be able to afford the price they go for in a Western Country (including Australia and NZ).
So if you can have access to certain markets at favourable tariffs then you are on a gold mine. The guitars are cheap and easy to make. Just chop down a few more trees. Pay slave wages via an economy where people are purposely left in poverty. Profit.
However...
Have that access taken away or get asked for a bit too much of a percentage of the profits (tax), and I guess you find yourself in the position we are all discussing here. The one I don't understand!
The very one America and China seem to be squabblng over at the moment.
The way I see it and to my naive understanding, China has had it pretty good for quite a while now. They don't give a shit about using slave labour and only care about profit. If you don't keep the whip hand on them QC goes down.
They've been give access to a pretty decent portion of the pie and they probably should have been pulled up a bit more before about it. After all, if they don't want to make those guitars, South Korea and Indonesia are quite happy to take up the slack!
There are still many unscrupulous factories in China that make up what is known as 'Chibson' guitars. Gibson knock-offs. They use the exact same headstock and logo. They are illegal to import to America, though not illegal to own. They are sub-par even though they are very cheap (coupla hundred bucks). Then again, Gibson don't exactly have good QC either. That's for another thread.
Fender make guitars all over the place - China, Mexico and even the US!.
The ones from China are made by Chinese. The ones in Mexico are made by Mexicans. The ones in the US are made by Mexicans. So the old joke goes. I don't know. I'm sure a few Americans work there.
And then we come to Behringer...
A German company, ripping off out-of-patent designs by Japanese companies and getting them made in China in a bespoke factory. Actually a 'city' they built that employs thousands.
It's more like the wild west than it's ever been in mass-scale manufacture, and all these trade wars and 'squabbling' will only get more intense. As automation takes hold more and more, human rights need to be seen to be being observed, and markets get cut off from those who are on the naughty step (see Iran and their sanctions).
It provides a dangerous breeding ground for things to get quickly out of hand with tit-for-tat repercussions.
All wars are banker wars.
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