Post: #226

(04-16-2019 11:04 AM)Jetset Wrote:  

(04-16-2019 10:44 AM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  

That's a lot of JPG compression for an alleged screenshot of something that just happened. If it was posted, it's already been deleted - and hasn't been quoted by any other outlet. The phrasing sounds like something somebody would construct to be inflammatory, rather than something that would actually be said - but I admit it could be the translation.

With that said, if true, I maintain that this will be his undoing.

(04-16-2019 10:50 AM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  PARIS—An alarm was raised at Notre Dame at 6:20 p.m. on Monday night—23 minutes before the structure was engulfed in flames—but officials found no sign of a fire.

Firefighters who responded to a second alert raced to the scene but were unable to tame an inferno that ripped through the 12th century cathedral for the next 9 hours.

Scenario #1: A construction worker realized he fucked up, pulled the fire alarm, and fled in a bid to avoid being held accountable, not realizing they would not find the fire without his help.

Scenario #2: A vandal, possibly working on the construction crew, was attempting a deliberate prank or political act but did not intend for it to get this far.

As terrible as this event is if it somehow leads to the end of Macron's administration then I say Parisians will have gotten off cheap

Post: #227

(04-16-2019 10:56 AM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  

(04-16-2019 10:53 AM)Horus Wrote:  

(04-16-2019 10:44 AM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  

Please tell me that's fake news. A photoshop maybe. Even I'm not ready to admit France is that far gone.

I just can't believe that the guy is so clearly willing to piss off the native French population that I desperately want to believe would feel deep seated rage at such a comment. Perhaps I'm too optimistic.

Post: #228

Scenario #3: A fire started spontaneously from faulty wiring/chemicals/equipment but the careless safety official (Who is in charge of checking such stuff in a priceless historical building?) checked it out didn't take it seriously or linger in the area, allowing the blaze to expand in silence until it was too late.

Post: #229

(04-16-2019 11:04 AM)Jetset Wrote:  With that said, if true, I maintain that this will be his undoing.

Or perhaps a deliberate provocation.

Post: #230

(04-16-2019 11:15 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  Scenario #3: A fire started spontaneously from faulty wiring/chemicals/equipment but the careless safety official (Who is in charge of checking such stuff in a priceless historical building?) checked it out didn't take it seriously or linger in the area, allowing the blaze to expand in silence until it was too late.

You're right. It could just easily be an automatic alarm that was set off.

I'd imagined someone pulled it and the firefighters, identifying which alarm was pulled and finding no fire, quickly concluded it was a hoax. The person who triggered it, being the kind of idiot who starts fires and runs away, might not have connected the dots to realize the firefighters would be unable to see the cause of the call, especially if the alarm was pulled in a location that is completely unrelated to the construction work.

Apparently, the building has assigned fire monitors who inspect the wooden structure of the roof three times a day:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/15/world...-know.html

That article is an interesting read. 100 firefighters were tasked with evacuating artworks according to a pre-existing emergency plan. Running into a burning building to pull out the Crown of Thorns seems like something you want to get into your resume when promotion time comes around.

(04-16-2019 11:10 AM)Horus Wrote:  I just can't believe that the guy is so clearly willing to piss off the native French population that I desperately want to believe would feel deep seated rage at such a comment. Perhaps I'm too optimistic.

From his initial Yellow Vests speech, I was taken aback by how bad he is at talking to people. Even with the language barrier, he has the charisma of a tree stump and the translation made it sound like he couldn't help but condescend to working people.

I doubt he'd have any idea if he pissed people off.

Post: #231

(04-16-2019 10:44 AM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  

(04-15-2019 04:15 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  If it was muslims or someone else who burned it down.

It doesn't matter, the real loss is that it is impossible to rebuild.

No architect exists who wants or knows how to build the beautiful or the sublime, they only know marxist brutalism.

No stone masons, glass workers, sculptors exist, they've all been replaced with chinese steel and glass.

No spiritual rulers who understand the need for the divine and everlasting.

No artists to paint the portrait and paintings, they only paint ugly degenerate images.

Tell me about the superiority of modernity, once the rebuilding efforts fail.

Diverse architecture?

A mosque? A mud castle?

Post: #232

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/notre-dame-...sacrament/

Seems the chaplain of the Paris fire department, Father Jean-Marc Fournier, a former military chaplain who had served in Afghanistan and supported Bataclan victims, had insisted on entering the building with the firefighters and was involved in locating and pulling out the relics.

Post: #233

I go here every Saturday with my dates... It's about the most Parisian experience you can get.

You guys can forget about the French and particularly Parisians doing anything other than candle and prayer. 70 people killed last year, they didnt do anything. Thousands of their countrymen yellow vests fight for their rights, but they don't do anything either. Christianity in Ile de France is mostly a joke, no people really go to mass anymore and and Paris is Sodom/Gomorrah. As always, the French in the countryside, though they might be devout catholics they are too cuckservative to do anything, as seen with the GJ movement. Hate to be "that guy" but I said several times during the French terrorist attacks and then during the opening phase of the GJ movements that nothing would change. Fuck all changed. You could burn their houses to the ground and evict them, all they will do is more peaceful protesting.

Social media reactions have been entertaining. Some non-French are posting about "white people whining about their icons", leftists and their usual moralizing "ya all weeping for this piece of stone while Kenyan children dying", and the typical sarcastic French are already making memes about how the restored monument will be named "Notre Dame Emirates - brought to you by Qatar". As with most french jokes, this one contains too much truth to be funny.

I have mixed reactions from the fact that 2 of the richest french are donating to the restoration fund. I'll only hope this comes from the "goodness of their hearts" and not the must-not-miss opportunity to become the cathedral's finest patrons and subsequently privatizing the place.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/notre-dame-...otre-dame/

Post: #234

(04-16-2019 11:47 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

(04-16-2019 10:44 AM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  

(04-15-2019 04:15 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  If it was muslims or someone else who burned it down.

It doesn't matter, the real loss is that it is impossible to rebuild.

No architect exists who wants or knows how to build the beautiful or the sublime, they only know marxist brutalism.

No stone masons, glass workers, sculptors exist, they've all been replaced with chinese steel and glass.

No spiritual rulers who understand the need for the divine and everlasting.

No artists to paint the portrait and paintings, they only paint ugly degenerate images.

Tell me about the superiority of modernity, once the rebuilding efforts fail.

Diverse architecture?

A mosque? A mud castle?

Nothing like a little Brutalist architecture to bring you closer to your maker.

Like this church in Austria:

https://www.archdaily.com/886994/the-biz...chitecture

Post: #235

Who is this person, with what looks like a headscarf on, and what was he doing walking around during the fire?

Post: #236

(04-16-2019 12:32 PM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  Who is this person, with what looks like a headscarf on, and what was he doing walking around during the fire?

If you go through it frame-by-frame, at a couple of angles, it looks smooth and when he turns toward the camera, it appears to have a brim:



I'd call it a hard hat and a visibility jacket, presumably the dude tasked with making sure the northern belfry wasn't burning. He also seems to have wrapped a gaiter around his nose and mouth.

Post: #237

(04-16-2019 08:17 AM)rockoman Wrote:  Very early on - about 25 minutes after the fire started

------
Time columnist Christopher J. Hale set off a firestorm of speculation when he tweeted that a friend who works at the cathedral told him “cathedral staff said the fire was intentionally set”…
-------

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-1...edral-fire

The tweet was later deleted.

Who is Christopher Hale?

Tennessee politico. TIME contributor & Fox News Democratic contributor. Former Congressional candidate & nonprofit executive. Obama White House & campaign alum.

https://twitter.com/chrisjollyhale?lang=de

Hale is not a radical of any kind.

Why does a professional journalist type this on Twitter.

Who was this friend (allegedly a Jesuit who works at Notre Dame) who allegedly relayed the news to him?

Did the friend retract?

If so - why?

Who were the cathedral staff if they existed?

A serious detective or insurance assessor investigating the case would be interviewing Hale to find out exactly what chain of events led to him issuing this tweet and then retracting.

That ZeroHedge article comment section you linked is lit:
"Good point. We all know the French have a penchant for working overtime."


"Notre dame survived 850 years, survived two world wars, reformation, French revolution ... but did not survive importing hordes of "engineers" from caliphats.

And if you dare to question official narrative of construction works during early evening you get immediately labeled as an extremist and threat. Europe is thoroughly fucked."



Really makes you wonder and good point too.

Is Notre Dame even insurable? If it is insurable and agents are investigating will they tell the world what really happened? Follow the money. Does ND have security guards? From a US perspective security is for insurance purposes. What does security know?

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/in...523929.htm

Only link I can find about insurance and ND. Even if it is insurable looks like the insurance companies are wisely bailing out or using lawyer talk to weasel their way out.

Quote:Major European insurers expect France to bear the bulk of the cost of rebuilding the Notre-Dame Cathedral after a fire tore through the eight-centuries-old Paris landmark on Monday.

The cost of a likely multi-year restoration project could itself take a year to become clear, industry experts said.

“It is really going to be up to the French state and benefactors to help to restore and rebuild this,” Robert Read, head of art and private client at Lloyd’s of London insurer Hiscox told Reuters, adding it could take up to 20 years to restore the cathedral.

“The scaffolding costs are going to be enormous, actually securing the building is going to be enormous. The cost of renovating the (British) Parliament is a similar sort of number,” Read said.

The cost of repairs and upgrades to the neo-Gothic fronted parliament building on the banks of the River Thames has been estimated at up to $8 billion.

French President Emmanuel Macron has said France would launch a fundraising campaign to rebuild Notre-Dame, which ranks among the finest examples of French Gothic cathedral architecture. The government owns the cathedral.

Several of France’s business elite have already pledged money to help, including a 200 million euros ($226 million) donation from Bernard Arnault and 100 million from Francois Pinault, heads of luxury goods groups LVMH and Kering respectively.

“Rebuilding would be very tricky as some of the craft required to rebuild, the stain-making craft would probably have to be relearnt,” Hiscox’s Read said.

Reinsurer Swiss Re said works of art in buildings such as the cathedral are generally not insured because they are often priceless. Any art works on loan from third parties would, however, be insured, Read added.

While some of the large paintings at Notre-Dame could not be taken down in time, the mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo, said at the scene of the fire that a number of the many artworks in the cathedral had been rescued and were being put in safe storage.

Contractor Liability
Notre-Dame was in the midst of renovations and industry sources said the contractor (Le Bras Freres in Jarny, Lorraine) would have its own liability policy.

“Typically that would be for tens of millions of euros. But effectively that is going to be a drop in the ocean compared to what the actual cost of restoring the cathedral is,” Read said.

“If they are deemed to be liable they would be carrying some cover, but it’s not unlimited and it’s definitely not going to be enough to rebuild the Cathedral.”

Post: #238

Money changers in the temple. I;m not religious but let's see where this leads us:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-1...notre-dame

Apple Joins Growing List Of Companies Helping To Rebuild Notre Dame

Quote:Apple CEO Tim Cook on Tuesday announced that the company would join two French billionaires and the energy company Total in donating money to help rebuild the cathedral of Notre Dame after Monday's devastating fire.

While Cook framed the decision as contributing to efforts to restore France's "heritage for future generations", we wonder if his Silicon Valley peers will see it the same way.

After all, the Catholic Church, which owns Notre Dame, has a well-documented history of homophobia and covering up sexual abuse by priests - two issues that are anathema to Bay Area techies.

Apple didn't respond to requests for comment about Cook's announcement. But in unrelated news, as the French business elite rallies to save the cathedral, a video has circulated purporting to show two gilets-jaune protesters walking along one of the cathedral's two towers shortly before the blaze began.

Could Apple's decision to donate to the cathedral turn Apple into the next Chick Fil-A? Or is the risk worth it, because perhaps Cook and the other billionaires will request shiny new luxury goods stores be installed in the cathedral as part of the renovations?

Post: #239

Chicago Fire,


Presumably, the firm doing the renovation would have had liability insurance up to a certain level for exactly this kind of incident, where they cause damage by accident in the course of their work. We can assume, because this is Notre Dame, that they will break the limit on their cover if any investigation finds any evidence that triggers their insurance. In effect this is the official narrative.

Which means that their insurance company has a huge incentive to find evidence that the fire was laid deliberately. If it was laid deliberately, then any party trying to conceal that would want to stop any investigation - by an insurance company or otherwise. If they have deep enough pockets, then they could offer to pick up the tab for the insurance company in order to do that.

Just imagine that this was a normal private situation between two businesses or individuals - not a public incident with huge potential political implications. In that situation the merest hint that the fire had been deliberately laid would have insurance assessors crawling all over the place in an effort to find something to allow the insurance company to escape from having to pay up.

Let's see how it's sorted out.

Post: #240

(04-16-2019 12:29 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  Nothing like a little Brutalist architecture to bring you closer to your maker.

Like this church in Austria:

https://www.archdaily.com/886994/the-biz...chitecture

And I thought the next town had it bad ..

Church entrance (stairway down to hell .. or portal to another dimension maybe ? I'm not sure) :



Detail of the front wall as visible from the street :



At first I thought it was maybe a prison, before I noticed the cross at the top of the tower.

Unfortunately these buildings never get burned down

Post: #241

Miracle! The highest point of reference of the Cathedral, the metallic rooster set at the top of the high tower (the one that exploded in flames and completely burned), was found a little bit damaged in its shape, but untouched by the raging flames. A Native French, retired expert in art and restoration, found it, like he was guided by God himself, inside and within the smoldering ruins, and once again, with no mark from the inferno and flames on the metal.

Thing is, this rooster contained a piece of the Crown of Thorns (of Christ). It does seem like this Most Holy relics protected the rooster from the monstrous flames raging around it for hours.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/culture/notre-dam...s-20190416
Il semblait perdu à jamais avec la chute de la flèche de Notre-Dame, lundi soir, dans l’incendie qui a ravagé la cathédrale. Mais le coq qui surplombait la ville à plus de 90 mètres de hauteur a été retrouvé, mardi. L’information a été annoncée fièrement sur Twitter par le patron de la Fédération française du bâtiment, Jacques Chanut, photos à l’appui, puis confirmée par le ministère de la Culture.
«Incroyable!, s’écrit-il. Un de nos adhérents du Groupement des entreprises de restauration de monuments historiques (GMH) a retrouvé dans les décombres le coq du haut de la flèche de Notre-Dame.» Sur les photos, effectivement, un homme tient fermement un coq en bronze vert, très reconnaissable avec son style naïf et ses ailes déployées bien que la chute l’ait cabossé. «Merci à nos bâtisseurs passionnés du patrimoine pour leur engagement: Le savoir-faire français est là», conclut Jacques Chanut.
le coq contient trois reliques: une parcelle de la Sainte Couronne d’épines, une relique de saint Denis et une de sainte Geneviève. C’est le cardinal Verdier, archevêque de Paris, qui les plaça, le 25 octobre 1935, afin de faire de la flèche «un paratonnerre spirituel»





So it looks like 6 hours in the middle of the raging flames of Hell, could not touch or burn the Thorns of Christ! Miracle

In any case and meanwhile, the main part of the Crown of Thorns was saved by a French heroic military chaplain

Paris' Deputy Mayor for Tourism and Sports, Jean-Francois Martins told that he and others on the scene jumped into action to salvage the trove of art and artifacts housed in Notre Dame Cathedral as a devastating fire engulfed the ancient building the previous evening.

"We made a human chain, with our friends from the church... to get, as quick as possible, to get all the relics," he said, noting that the Crown of Thorns believed to have been worn by Jesus Christ on the cross was among the items rescued.

"Thanks to the great bravery of all our firefighters, and as well all the public servants there, we had a very quick intervention. Very quickly a team was fully dedicated to save all these holy pieces, and specifically the relics and the crown," Martins said. "Everything is safe and undamaged, and in our really bad day, we had one good news
Britain's Sky News and other outlets reported, meanwhile, that the man at the hot end of the human chain, who quickly located the most iconic of relics -- the Crown of Thorns and the Blessed Sacrament -- was Father Jean-Marc Fournier, Chaplain of the Paris Fire Department."


^twice a hero, Bataclan and Notre-Dame hero

Post: #242

Fucking disgusting. I don't like Paul Joseph Watson that much, but this is a good video showing Buzzfeed and the media's completely indefensible lack of reporting on the disgusting "moderate Muslims" cheering on this travesty:

Post: #243

This is without question a terrible event. However, one thing I will say is that the media coverage of the event that I've seen (or rather have been forced to see) locally (northeast US) has been very annoying. Yes, the cathedral has immense historical and cultural significance. However, the way television and Internet outlets are constantly displaying headlines, images, and videos of the fire, one would think that the average American was actually even aware that the cathedral existed or even cared much about it. It's almost as if this event is the current "shiny object" for the masses.

Post: #244

(04-16-2019 05:45 PM)Rang off the Pipe Wrote:  It's almost as if this event is the current "shiny object" for the masses.

- They need eyeballs.
- People watch dramatic things.
- There are not enough dramatic things to fill the 24/7 news cycle.

Therefore, you will see repetitive headlines over footage of the fire marked 'BREAKING' until something dramatic finally happens again.

With that said, I think there is a lot of genuine interest in this story because although it wasn't on their minds, it's a genuinely recognizable part of Paris, people genuinely like the idea of Paris, and it's genuinely beautiful. In a world where everything gets gutted and turned into a Chipotle, the idea that it's even possible to be part of building something that took more than a lifetime to accomplish, that stands for nearly 1,000 years, and that can be enjoyed by millions across generations makes people think about things they don't think about often. Tradition, aspiration, legacy, the possibility of a life being full of meaning and amounting to more than the sum of its parts.

I was in one of the shittiest old dive bars in the northeast surrounded by a bunch of union guys when this hit the news. The reaction was sincere. Somebody actually pointed at the television and, in a confused anger, said "HEY, LOOK WHAT THAT WAS LIKE INSIDE".

Well, yeah. Look what that was that like inside. Look how fucking hard that must have been to make, and now it's on fire because some jackass flicked his cigarette butt down the wrong crevice - or whatever. Even if it's nobody's fault, even if you never knew a thing about the place before yesterday, I think any man has a temptation to start channeling Howard Roark or Howard Beale and feel some instinctive outrage. "Whoever did that must have been pretty cool, and I'm angry at this world screwing them over and taking their work away for nothing," or something to that effect.

Maybe another way to look at it, like a little kid playing in the park, and you find something beautiful laying on the ground that you really like. It's something different and special. Yet in the same instant, just as soon as you've discovered it and started to appreciate it, some bully grabs it and smashes it just to be a dick.

Liquid gold for television news.

Post: #245

(04-16-2019 05:45 PM)Rang off the Pipe Wrote:  This is without question a terrible event. However, one thing I will say is that the media coverage of the event that I've seen (or rather have been forced to see) locally (northeast US) has been very annoying. Yes, the cathedral has immense historical and cultural significance. However, the way television and Internet outlets are constantly displaying headlines, images, and videos of the fire, one would think that the average American was actually even aware that the cathedral existed or even cared much about it. It's almost as if this event is the current "shiny object" for the masses.

My thoughts exactly. I'm not downplaying it, because yesterday there were very real fears that we were losing a 900 year old building, but it did make me start to question why we cared so much from afar and there were $500 million raised for the building. There's two reasons this doesn't really add up with the coverage its been getting.

1. Global coverage has been silent on the Yellow Vests. France is one of the most powerful countries in the world, yet one day of a building on fire gets more coverage than a huge political movement in that country within the last six months or so?

2. Negative media coverage on the church. Everything I've heard about the church has been negative lately, and I would've thought the media would want to phase out churches, but yet there's been a lot of heartbreak to a church on fire among the normies.

Then, I thought about it more. Paris is the most visited city in the world, and with more people traveling now and it attracting an older crowd in general, I'm thinking a lot of people have sentimental memories associated with that church. I've barely heard of it to be honest, though my travel interests are not centered around a western European city like Paris. But, two reasons why people care about this seem to make sense.

1. Mortality in an ever changing world. This is a reminder that everything we grew up with can and almost definitely will have an expiration date. This building is 800 years old and went through a few wars. We live in a world that is changing at a rapid pace and are turning into a culture that does not have a lot of long term attachment to things materialistically, logistically, or personally. We always buy the latest and greatest, we rent rather than buy property, and 50% of marriages end in divorce. In a world of fast change and chaos, sometimes there's relief knowing an 800 year old building in your environment is just there as a symbol of stability. Now that symbol has been damaged and people subconsciously don't know what to depend on.

2. Unique identity. One of the biggest complaints from travelers are that big cities are selling out to corporations, are losing their old charm, and are overrun with tourists rather than locals. Well, even if the Cathedral was packed with 13 million tourists a year, it did have an old charm and a form of status of the old guard that has been kept in an ever changing city such as Paris. Now, that's gone too. People also may be beginning to question what they have left and what's left around them that makes something unique and special.

Post: #246

(04-16-2019 06:34 PM)yankeetravels Wrote:  (snip)
1. Mortality in an ever changing world. This is a reminder that everything we grew up with can and almost definitely will have an expiration date. This building is 800 years old and went through a few wars. We live in a world that is changing at a rapid pace and are turning into a culture that does not have a lot of long term attachment to things materialistically, logistically, or personally. We always buy the latest and greatest, we rent rather than buy property, and 50% of marriages end in divorce. In a world of fast change and chaos, sometimes there's relief knowing an 800 year old building in your environment is just there as a symbol of stability. Now that symbol has been damaged and people subconsciously don't know what to depend on.

I also think that there is a religious renewal brewing, like a giant bubble of hot gas, under the surface of the world. The evil being spread by the internet and social media, on top of the sexual revolution, is causing many people to feel disquiet in their souls. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows.

The burning of Notre-Dame looked to me for a moment as a warning, a personal warning to me, from God. It made the hairs stand up on my neck.

Post: #247

Notre Dame is the heart of France for 8 centuries. It's like the white house , the statue of liberty and Yankee stadium wrapped into one, not to mention the religious significance and artifacts. It's where Kings were crowned.

Post: #248

If France wasn't obsessed with subsidising the dregs of the Middle East and Africa, they could build a Notre Dame every year.

Billions and billions squandered for the reward of one Mbape every once in a while.

How much does France spend on immigrants every year?

My conservative estimate is around 25-50 billion Euro each and ever year (source for estimates: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/...llion.html and others).

Just one massive economic, cultural and societal drain.

I don't think we can even imagine how much europeans are held back by immigrants. What societies we would be capable off, if we only took care of ourselves and didn't have the white man's burden on us.

Post: #249

(04-16-2019 10:21 AM)Jetset Wrote:  

No, don't take this sincerely: they are correctly-stating the Satanic Worldview, but people in the replies are missing the point. Note that the Church is not correcting them, because they are about deception.

"historical and architectural treasure" - negating it as a House of God

"a momument of the genius to those who designed and built it" - they see it as a triumph of man following his own will, as opposed to me seeing that it exists or doesn't purely by God's will.

Remember what the Priest said yesterday: "The pride of human endeavor"? That's exactly how the COS sees it. To them, God had nothing to do with the construction of this Church, and it's a testament to what can be achieved by discarding the Natural Law, and deciding to be one's own god. Whereas, I see mankind taking pride it anything it does by itself as dangerous folly.

"we grieve with Paris and all who basked in its splendor" - note the second part of this. They're calling out those who took sensible pleasure in the opulent surroundings, which is what they want all people to do: respond to your passionate drives.

Remember: the Demonic has access to our sensible faculties, which is why you have to trust in Reason over what you Feel, which is unreliable, and be equally-used by the Demonic to lead you astray.

This is why I'm wary of the kind of 'ecstatic worship' promoted in other religious denominations:





Yes, that creates an emotional response, but then how is that used? Who uses it? Is that emotional response a reliable engine for generating ongoing personal change? Or does detecting the Will of God then become about presuming the response is holiness and become addicted to the sensible pleasure found in that response? Do they learn to detach from emotions, or, as some of us have learnt, if you even lightly-scratch the outward veneer of holiness, does their cupboard burst open to reveal an avalanche of rotting clothes that try to smother you with the sour smell of mothballs?

I came to understand the excessive sensible pleasure I took in music, as a musician, had completely-blocked my connection with the Father.

Alternatively, trusting in Reason generates reliable Personal Change, which means, once you learn Discernment:

- If you're singing or in silence, your response remains the same.
- If you're in a grand cathedral or in your room, your response remains the same.
- If you're receiving joy or suffering, your response response remains the same.
- If you receive no obvious emotional pleasure from your prayer, your response remains the same.
- If the Sun is shining or currently-obscured by clouds, your response remains the same. Note that the Sun is still there, even though you can't currently-feel its warm sunlight.

EDIT: By contrast, note how this Catholic Monk uses music to aim for grounding the reality of suffering, rather than ecstatic transcendence.

Post: #250