Post: #426

(03-08-2019 01:34 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

Basic bitch boomer tries to argue against Yang's UBI proposal. Expect a lot of this from conservatives if awareness grows for UBI. Conservatives are totally fucking helpless against it as an argument, because all they can do is spout loser platitudes and recite nonsense talking points they've heard from other people. (The one I'm seeing now is that UBI will cause "cost-push inflation", I.E. if everyone has an extra thousand dollars in their pocket, the price of everything will automatically rise to cancel out that 1000$ exactly. It's an argument that's complicated, hard to understand, and also laughably stupid.)

On the other hand, the #YangGang does make a pretty compelling argument.

In what world do Americans support UBI?

This is a flawed program that is Communist Canadians have attempted to experiment with (Ontario has conducted the largest pilot project to date). The program is hard to float at a positive balance, increases prices of goods, plus it becomes difficult to determine "core needs" when different geographical regions have such differences in cost of living. There is also the rise of you have to take on debt to then use to fund UBI.

How do you determine what Joe in San Francisco received versus Jeremy in Alabama? Joe will need $60k versus Jeremy's $20k. To couple this with price differences you then either have to connect this with price controls or controls on freedom of movement.

Also, the rich don't pay for these then vs as wealthy don't have incomes. The working class will slave away to make sure Joe and Jermemy get a cheque evrey month. If UBI was ever implemented to where 60 percent of the population received the benefits then best believe the remaining 30 percent, outside of the wealthy 10 percent would be shouldering the burden.

Post: #427

(03-08-2019 08:21 AM)kosko Wrote:  

(03-08-2019 01:34 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

Basic bitch boomer tries to argue against Yang's UBI proposal. Expect a lot of this from conservatives if awareness grows for UBI. Conservatives are totally fucking helpless against it as an argument, because all they can do is spout loser platitudes and recite nonsense talking points they've heard from other people. (The one I'm seeing now is that UBI will cause "cost-push inflation", I.E. if everyone has an extra thousand dollars in their pocket, the price of everything will automatically rise to cancel out that 1000$ exactly. It's an argument that's complicated, hard to understand, and also laughably stupid.)

On the other hand, the #YangGang does make a pretty compelling argument.

In what world do Americans support UBI?

This is a flawed program that is Communist Canadians have attempted to experiment with (Ontario has conducted the largest pilot project to date). The program is hard to float at a positive balance, increases prices of goods, plus it becomes difficult to determine "core needs" when different geographical regions have such differences in cost of living. There is also the rise of you have to take on debt to then use to fund UBI.

How do you determine what Joe in San Francisco received versus Jeremy in Alabama? Joe will need $60k versus Jeremy's $20k. To couple this with price differences you then either have to connect this with price controls or controls on freedom of movement.

Also, the rich don't pay for these then vs as wealthy don't have incomes. The working class will slave away to make sure Joe and Jermemy get a cheque evrey month. If UBI was ever implemented to where 60 percent of the population received the benefits then best believe the remaining 30 percent, outside of the wealthy 10 percent would be shouldering the burden.

Cool. Peg it to San Fran and then watch a flyover state renaissance, or at very least the world's largest private munitions stockpiling prior to the inevitable dissolution of the Federal Union.

Post: #428

Just saw this from Yang's appearance on Joe Rogen.

He said he wouldn't need a 100% evidence of "meddling" and "meme war" by Russia or other foreign countries to counter-act, and if president he'll make them regret their decisions big time and he says he thinks 80-90% of American public will be behind him in that case. Didn't realize he has this hawkishness at him. Yang-Tulsi ticket perhaps a more balanced one.

Post: #429

(03-08-2019 08:21 AM)kosko Wrote:  In what world do Americans support UBI?

Right now, they don't. It's completely unknown outside of weird internet nerds like you and me.
If Yang gains any level of prominence, though, I expect it to gain support very quickly. Like I said above, conservatives are helpless against it rhetorically, particularly coming from somebody like Yang, who's obviously extremely intelligent and successful. It's easy to make charges of "You just want to take everybody's money 'cause you're too lazy to work!" against a weirdo like Bernie, and a lot harder against a guy who's paid more in taxes than most people will ever make.

Quote:This is a flawed program that is Communist Canadians have attempted to experiment with (Ontario has conducted the largest pilot project to date). The program is hard to float at a positive balance, increases prices of goods, plus it becomes difficult to determine "core needs" when different geographical regions have such differences in cost of living. There is also the rise of you have to take on debt to then use to fund UBI.

How do you determine what Joe in San Francisco received versus Jeremy in Alabama? Joe will need $60k versus Jeremy's $20k. To couple this with price differences you then either have to connect this with price controls or controls on freedom of movement.

Yang's proposal sidesteps most of these issues, by just making it a flat 1k a month received by every adult American citizen. No need for freedom of movement restrictions or trying to decide what's a "core cost" or not.

Quote:Also, the rich don't pay for these then vs as wealthy don't have incomes. The working class will slave away to make sure Joe and Jermemy get a cheque evrey month. If UBI was ever implemented to where 60 percent of the population received the benefits then best believe the remaining 30 percent, outside of the wealthy 10 percent would be shouldering the burden.

He wants to fund it with a 10% VAT, not a rise in the income tax. VATs are vastly harder for the wealthy to dodge, because if you're not spending money there's not much point in being rich.

EDIT: If you're curious about this there's a really professional, smartly-put page on his website about the proposal.

Bonus #YangGang meme:

Post: #430

Yang has some interesting perspectives and seems more genuine than most politicians but he's still terrible on many fronts, namely:

-LGBT
-Abortion
-Guns
-Mass immigration (he says immigrants aren't taking the jobs, only automation is. I doubt he's for lower immigration)

He's better than most democrats but the bar is quite low. I guess you can't expect any democrat to be good on these issues.

Post: #431

Is the DNC really open-minded enough to allow an Asian guy to be their top POTUS candidate...?

Post: #432

(03-08-2019 09:49 AM)Labienus Wrote:  Yang has some interesting perspectives and seems more genuine than most politicians but he's still terrible on many fronts, namely:

-LGBT
-Abortion
-Guns
-Mass immigration (he says immigrants aren't taking the jobs, only automation is. I doubt he's for lower immigration)

He's better than most democrats but the bar is quite low. I guess you can't expect any democrat to be good on these issues.

The thing that won me over for Yang is that I think UBI will be the strongest anti-immigration argument imaginable. (OK, the REAL thing that won me over for Yang is that conservatives are stupid losers and I'm done playing for their team, but like, the superficial reason I gave myself to resolve the cognitive dissonance is that Yang's policies are actually anti-immigration.)

The big reason that immigration in America is such a difficult issue is that most people don't see the harm in it. When the caravans were coming last year, a liberal friend of mine said to me, "These people are coming to mow your lawns and build your houses for cheap. Why would you want to turn them away?"
Now, obviously I have answers to this, but the answers are complicated and can't be turned into a one-sentence meme, so they may as well not exist. The harm from immigration is hidden, and Americans are dumb and not inclined to go looking for it.

UBI however, puts the harm from immigration front and center, and in a way that's immediately understandable.
"There is a pool of UBI money that's paying for my 1000$ a month, and every new person who comes into the country decreases my share. Every one of these new immigrants is literally taking money out of my pocket."

With UBI, every single citizen has a direct financial incentive to oppose immigration! The people won't want it because it decreases their share of #YangBucks. The businesses won't want it (Well, they'll still want it, but they'll want it less) because more citizens means more taxes needed to pay for their #Yangbucks.

As for the rest of it...

Post: #433

Yang is ultimately going to have to square the circle with immigration and automation.

If automation is coming, and it is, there's much less need of immigration of any kind, much less for the kinds of repetitive, low skilled work that most immigrants are taking. Automation increases the need for the RAISE Act, rather than lowers it.

You can't have it both ways. If he can square the circle he'll be in a better spot, but immigration is a sacrament in the Democratic party so he can't do that and have any chance of winning a primary there.

American politics right now isn't quite ready for a guy like Yang, but he really should go Republican. Market fundamentalism is decreasing there (though it's still strong), while the Democratic Party is the party of sacraments and the tech overlords that he wants to undercut.

Can someone like him realign the Democrats? I have my doubts. The guy isn't a force of nature like Trump is. He needs people on his campaign that know how to sell.

Post: #434

#Yangbux is neither here nor there IMO.

Most Westerners are so fucking braindead and financially illiterate at this point that when you tell them "no, we can't afford it" they look at you like a child who simply contends that daddy's magic plastic card has an infinite amount of spendy power. "It worked before, and it will work again, for ever and ever and ever amen."

If you asked these fucking retards whether they should stop immigration to avoid having to share their #Yangbux then they would look at you like you were huffing fumes.

"Why? If every poor person in the world moves here then EVERYONE will have #Yangbux and nobody will be poor EVER AGAIN!"

Say it ain't fucking so.

Post: #435

(03-08-2019 10:44 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  #Yangbux is neither here nor there IMO.
Most Westerners are so fucking braindead and financially illiterate at this point that when you tell them "no, we can't afford it" they look at you like a child who simply contends that daddy's magic plastic card has an infinite amount of spendy power. "It worked before, and it will work again, for ever and ever and ever amen."
If you asked these fucking retards whether they should stop immigration to avoid having to share their #Yangbux then they would look at you like you were huffing fumes.
"Why? If every poor person in the world moves here then EVERYONE will have #Yangbux and nobody will be poor EVER AGAIN!"
Say it ain't fucking so.

Well, maybe. But we know existing arguments DON'T work, and my argument MIGHT work, so are we really any worse off? Besides, if we go with this route I get a thousand bucks a month.

(03-08-2019 10:44 AM)Libertas Wrote:  American politics right now isn't quite ready for a guy like Yang, but he really should go Republican. Market fundamentalism is decreasing there (though it's still strong), while the Democratic Party is the party of sacraments and the tech overlords that he wants to undercut.

Republicans aren't smart enough to understand or vote for somebody like Yang. They're in that particularly sweet spot on the IQ range where they're too smart for a simple "Free money!" to appeal to them, but not smart enough to see why a UBI might be a good idea.

Quote:Can someone like him realign the Democrats? I have my doubts. The guy isn't a force of nature like Trump is. He needs people on his campaign that know how to sell.

Well, maybe. But he's better than Bernie, and Bernie came stupidly close to winning. The fact that the democratic candidates are all gormless losers makes it more feasible than it otherwise might be.

Post: #436

Actually GOP voters in Alaska like the state's oil dividend which he talks about a lot.

The party is a weird place because the base would actually be open to UBI. It's only the feckless leadership that doesn't represent their own voters that doesn't get it. That's where the market fundamentalism is that I'm talking about. Though with Trump's rise and the popularity of people like Tucker, that fundamentalism is weakening.

These things take years to play out, but the GOP is actually a growth market for ideas like Yang's, because the Democratic Party is increasingly the party of sacramental political correctness beneath the thumb of the tech overlords that Yang wants to tax. Guess who well that will play out?

Post: #437

(03-08-2019 10:56 AM)Libertas Wrote:  Actually GOP voters in Alaska like the state's oil dividend which he talks about a lot.

The party is a weird place because the base would actually be open to UBI. It's only the feckless leadership that doesn't represent their own voters that doesn't get it. That's where the market fundamentalism is that I'm talking about. Though with Trump's rise and the popularity of people like Tucker, that fundamentalism is weakening.

#Yangbucks would be... (*gasp*)... SOCIALISM! Most active republicans derive a huge amount of their identity from the fact that they're better than those terrible socialists who live in Venezuela and are forced to eat their cats. The idea would be DoA.

Quote:These things take years to play out, but the GOP is actually a growth market for ideas like Yang's, because the Democratic Party is increasingly the party of sacramental political correctness beneath the thumb of the tech overlords that Yang wants to tax. Guess who well that will play out?

The GOP is not a growth market for ideas of any sort. When's the last time any idea, of any stripe, came from it? It's an intellectual dead end.

Post: #438

"Active Republicans" don't equal the party's base, which is increasingly becoming working and middle class while the Democratic base is increasingly becoming the party of the very rich in globalized cities, who would react negatively to Yang's idea of a VAT on the tech sector they rely so much on. If you want to talk about ideas dying, the Democratic Party is one where you have to continuously proclaim your loyalty to the mob and cult. It's increasingly resembling North Korea. Yang is going to find this out the hard way. He's not pure enough to the revolution.

Trump did not run as a traditional Republican and Bannon and Breitbart fueled his campaign. Candace Owens has been doing great work and she's just one person. It helps when the party you're up against is increasingly cultish and stagnant. Are we suddenly forgetting all the meming and trolling that got over in 2016?

You're talking about "Conservatism, Inc," which is a dead end, but don't confuse it with the base of the party or the young people slowly growing to power in it. These things take an agonizing time to play out (which is why it's easy to get cynical), since part of it is generational replacement, but it is happening. The old order is losing power. People like Yang can take advantage of the vacuum that's been forming for a while. That vacuum doesn't exist on the other side. It's already been filled by the mob.

Post: #439

(03-08-2019 11:21 AM)Libertas Wrote:  "Active Republicans" don't equal the party's base, which is increasingly becoming working and middle class while the Democratic base is increasingly becoming the party of the very rich in globalized cities, who would react negatively to Yang's idea of a VAT on the tech sector they rely so much on.

I'm sorry, but this is just completely wrong. UBI is huge big among the tech sector types. In fact, it's probably more popular with rich techies than any other segment of society.
Zuckerberg likes it.
Musk is into it.

Hell, Y Combinator, which is the holy apostolic church of tech-ism, loves the idea so much they're running pilot programs out of their own money!

Quote: Are we suddenly forgetting all the meming and trolling that got over in 2016?

Great point! Those memes were amazing, and a critical part of Trump's hard-won victory!

Let's go ask ComradeStump, the guy who wrote the "Can't Stump the Trump" videos, how he feels about Trump and conservativism now!

We #YangGang now!

Post: #440

I'm not talking about the UBI idea itself. I'm talking about the VAT on the tech companies he wants to put in place to fund it. Are they on board with that?

I'm also not so sure that UBI is a strong anti-immigration argument. That's going to act as a huge magnet for even more unless Yang squares the circle and admits that everything he's talking about points to the need for LESS immigration and not more. So far, he hasn't done that. He needs to secure the border and reduce legal immigration.

Didn't see that about some of the meme artists though. That's interesting. It will take more than bitterness about Trump to get him over though. They need to start selling him this summer as he heads into debates. I do wish Yang well. If he gets some support while rejecting identity politics, it would be a very good thing for the Democratic Party and the country. If one of their own (so to speak) can pace and lead them away from SJWism, he'll have done more than Trump ever did. Perhaps his campaign could use the services of people like us.

I'm just skeptical he'll be able to do it all though. More likely he'll be denounced for being impure to the revolution.

Post: #441

(03-08-2019 10:14 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

(03-08-2019 09:49 AM)Labienus Wrote:  Yang has some interesting perspectives and seems more genuine than most politicians but he's still terrible on many fronts, namely:

-LGBT
-Abortion
-Guns
-Mass immigration (he says immigrants aren't taking the jobs, only automation is. I doubt he's for lower immigration)

He's better than most democrats but the bar is quite low. I guess you can't expect any democrat to be good on these issues.

The thing that won me over for Yang is that I think UBI will be the strongest anti-immigration argument imaginable. (OK, the REAL thing that won me over for Yang is that conservatives are stupid losers and I'm done playing for their team, but like, the superficial reason I gave myself to resolve the cognitive dissonance is that Yang's policies are actually anti-immigration.)

The big reason that immigration in America is such a difficult issue is that most people don't see the harm in it. When the caravans were coming last year, a liberal friend of mine said to me, "These people are coming to mow your lawns and build your houses for cheap. Why would you want to turn them away?"
Now, obviously I have answers to this, but the answers are complicated and can't be turned into a one-sentence meme, so they may as well not exist. The harm from immigration is hidden, and Americans are dumb and not inclined to go looking for it.

UBI however, puts the harm from immigration front and center, and in a way that's immediately understandable.
"There is a pool of UBI money that's paying for my 1000$ a month, and every new person who comes into the country decreases my share. Every one of these new immigrants is literally taking money out of my pocket."

With UBI, every single citizen has a direct financial incentive to oppose immigration! The people won't want it because it decreases their share of #YangBucks. The businesses won't want it (Well, they'll still want it, but they'll want it less) because more citizens means more taxes needed to pay for their #Yangbucks.

As for the rest of it...

Yeah I did see that tweet

Post: #442

(03-08-2019 12:36 PM)Libertas Wrote:  I'm not talking about the UBI idea itself. I'm talking about the VAT on the tech companies he wants to put in place to fund it. Are they on board with that?

It's not a "VAT on tech companies", it's just a general VAT. If Y-Combinator is willing to pay up with their own money to run trials, I would assume they'd be in favor it.

I'm kind of part of this world, so I understand why this stuff is so popular with tech folks. I've spent my whole life in and around the automation industry, and I, personally, have probably destroyed about five or six hundred jobs. I have no idea what happened to the people whose jobs I blew up. I assume they're working walmart or somewhere else.

Quote:Didn't see that about some of the meme artists though. That's interesting. It will take more than bitterness about Trump to get him over though. They need to start selling him this summer as he heads into debates. I do wish Yang well. If he gets some support while rejecting identity politics, it would be a very good thing for the Democratic Party and the country. If one of their own (so to speak) can pace and lead them away from SJWism, he'll have done more than Trump ever did. Perhaps his campaign could use the services of people like us.

I'm just skeptical he'll be able to do it all though. More likely he'll be denounced for being impure to the revolution.

Well, they're going full swing. Look for #YangGang on twitter.
What I expect to happen with Yang isn't denoucement, just him failing to gain any traction because he's an outsider, and like you said he's not exactly the charismatic force of nature that 2016 Trump was. But hey, it's fun to dream, and to have a candidate to support. I can finally talk politics around the office again without having to be weird and evasive all day!

Post: #443

Don't be so sure. Look how badly they pilloried Jim Webb for daring to raise concerns about white working class men in the debates. They've only gotten worse since then. Denouncement is coming. He better get good at frame control. He also needs to start building his brand. #Yangbucks might be a fun way to start. One of Trump's big advantages was his brand. The stronger your brand, the more resilient you are to criticism and the more your advertising will be tolerated.

While I doubt he wins, a major push and the right supporters might get him to do much better than expected, which would be a major win for the party and country by itself. If he starts finishing in the money in some of these primaries, so to speak, it would be a good thing.

His policy on his website is very detailed but he needs to understand that it isn't how people vote.

Post: #444

I'm not getting how UBI would ATTRACT more (illegal) immigration. If only citizens are eligible for it, there wouldn't be any benefit for illegals for some time (well, minus anchor babies). Instead they would be subjected to a VAT (in addition to existing sales taxes) on everything they bought without any tangible benefit. If anything it would seem like a pretty good deterrent.

Post: #445

(03-08-2019 12:56 PM)Libertas Wrote:  Don't be so sure. Look how badly they pilloried Jim Webb for daring to raise concerns about white working class men in the debates. They've only gotten worse since then. Denouncement is coming. He better get good at frame control. He also needs to start building his brand. #Yangbucks might be a fun way to start. One of Trump's big advantages was his brand. The stronger your brand, the more resilient you are to criticism and the more your advertising will be tolerated.

While I doubt he wins, a major push and the right supporters might get him to do much better than expected, which would be a major win for the party and country by itself. If he starts finishing in the money in some of these primaries, so to speak, it would be a good thing.

His policy on his website is very detailed but he needs to understand that it isn't how people vote.

Telling the Asian guy that he's a racist for caring about white men too much seems too rhetorically weird for even the democrats, but you might be right.
Beyond that, I completely agree with the rest of your post. Lots of work for him to do if this is going to realistically go anywhere.

In the meantime, all about the #YangGang train! #YangBucks for everybody!

Post: #446

(03-08-2019 01:01 PM)JohnKreese Wrote:  I'm not getting how UBI would ATTRACT more (illegal) immigration. If only citizens are eligible for it, there wouldn't be any benefit for illegals for some time (well, minus anchor babies). Instead they would be subjected to a VAT (in addition to existing sales taxes) on everything they bought without any tangible benefit. If anything it would seem like a pretty good deterrent.

That's a good point! Hadn't considered that!

So #YangBucks are a tax on illegals that goes to pay for the natives to have better lifestyles! Every hour some illegal spends working in a hot, shitty factory job, some of that money he earns is going to me, and he sees absolutely nothing for it!

Wow, it's even better than I thought!

Post: #447

(03-08-2019 01:01 PM)JohnKreese Wrote:  I'm not getting how UBI would ATTRACT more (illegal) immigration. If only citizens are eligible for it, there wouldn't be any benefit for illegals for some time (well, minus anchor babies). Instead they would be subjected to a VAT (in addition to existing sales taxes) on everything they bought without any tangible benefit. If anything it would seem like a pretty good deterrent.

Two reasons.

1. As you say, anchor babies. It would be delayed, sure, but they would know their babies would get the UBI, giving them more incentive to come here and pop them out. The incentive exists now and would only accelerate when money is involved.

2. Don't get it twisted, illegals are hoping that one day they'll be given citizenship. It's happened before, and the Democrats talk about it all the time so they have reasonable expectations to think it could happen to them.

Which is why he should change his policy to illegals getting a path to legalization but not citizenship.

The flip side is that a citizenship UBI might finally force the public into a demand that the idiotic immigration and citizenship policy changes. UBI would act as a magnet for much more immigration, legal and illegal.

(03-08-2019 01:02 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  Telling the Asian guy that he's a racist for caring about white men too much seems too rhetorically weird for even the democrats, but you might be right.
Beyond that, I completely agree with the rest of your post. Lots of work for him to do if this is going to realistically go anywhere.

In the meantime, all about the #YangGang train! #YangBucks for everybody!

Old meme. Can't fight the last war. Have money raining down from Bezos while Yang is giving it out.



Oh wow, I just found this.

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/free-m...ounseling/

Quote:Children raised in two-parent households have better outcomes across almost every dimension. Studies also show that being in a happy marriage contributes to longevity and life satisfaction. However, there is currently very little support out there for people who are looking for assistance in managing their marital relationship.

Because of the huge societal good from keeping married couples who want to stay together in their relationships, marriage counseling for interested couples should be free or heavily subsidized by the government.



Marriage rates have plummeted across the board in America. And if you do get married, it’s tough to stay together through all of the stresses that accompany marriage and particularly child-rearing. Any couple that stays together is a win for the next generation. We should support families who want to stay together in any way we can.


Problems to be Solved

Divorce negatively impacts the adults involved as well as children
Children from two-parent households have, on average, better outcomes across most metrics

Goals

Provide assistance to couples who want to remain together but are struggling

Guiding Principles

Social cohesion
Family


As President, I will…

Include family counseling in any healthcare plan offered through the federal government
Mandate the inclusion of family counseling services in any plan sold through the ACA marketplaces
Subsidize marriage counseling provided by any credentialed provider through the tax code

A (maybe inadvertent) shot across the bow at feminists who hate marriage. Very good. Not so sure about the ACA marketplaces part, but this is the right stuff.

Post: #448

What can you say. At least this clown show aint gonna be fucking boring.

Post: #449

(03-08-2019 01:16 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  What can you say. At least this clown show aint gonna be fucking boring.

Dude, this is the best thing that's ever happened to the RvF forum!
Did you see JohnKreese's post? It was insightful AND original! I'd never even thought about that argument before!

Do you know how long it's been since anybody in the RvF politics section has posted any sort of comment on a policy that wasn't either A.) copied wholesale from a talking head on TV or somebody's twitter account or B.) based on something vaguely remembered from a high school textbook?

I can't even remember the last time that happened. It's like 2016 all over again, except I get a thousand bucks in my bank account every month.

Post: #450

(03-08-2019 01:11 PM)Libertas Wrote:  Old meme. Can't fight the last war. Have money raining down from Bezos while Yang is giving it out.

Well, we don't got that, but we've got this simple three step explanation of #YangBucks.