Post: #576

Some notes on getting a job for people who live relatively near where 'software dev' jobs are posted.

This is probably common sense for most of you but you're going to get a lot further by calling the company and asking to speak with the supervisor or maybe hiring manager (though I would try to sidestep HR as much as possible) - rather than jumping through all the online hoops that can go fuck themselves.

The retards in HR outsource their own "difficult" work by posting these usually lowball job offers on indeed, linkedin, monster, etc; sometimes without the authority to do so (withdrawing offers frequently) and get 14580928342 applications from around the country, maybe 1% of which can be considered serious - so while I can sympathize with the 'data overload', these idiots brought it upon themselves. They were sweet talked by satan himself who said that their jobs were hard and their software algorithms were useful. I've wasted a lot of time getting no response job hunting 'conventionally', probably because I've never spent a dime on somebody or software that can optimize keywords for me.

It's much easier to get a job if you can convince a supervisor or manager that you have huge incentive to stick around considering it's only a ten minute drive from your house.

I don't even bother with the 'apply now' shit on indeed, linkedin, etc; and you shouldn't either - just write down the name of the company in a notebook and call them. You might have to call four or five times or drive over and drop of resumes at hiring managers or whatever but if you're seen as somebody who could easily be a regular, getting hired is much less of a pain in the ass and they might actually consider you a future employee.

^^^^Building on what EEnomad has to say, from what I've heard talking to other freelancers (most of them not software guys), you have to charge more than the rate that you'd usually expect from a wage slave job - oftentimes double. Not because you're necessarily a 200k/yr employee, but because 50% of your time is going to be spent finding and following up on leads.
Even if you think you have more work than you know what to do with, there's always the issue of flaky payments, filing liens, and getting dicked around that you'd never have to put up with if you were just an employee and your employer absorbed all that risk.
Charging more also scares off the guys who just want to waste your time (i.e; they see you as a rent-an-employee to hurl abuse at rather than an independent contractor). It can eventually be extremely lucrative but like all things you have to put in the ground work and not many people I know who have 'made it' as independent contractors would ever willingly go back.

Post: #577

Guys that work remote, what is your set up for clients that need to white list your IP to access the server/dashboards. Do you just remote screen into a home computer?

Post: #578

I'm currently busy building my first startup, where another guy is coding it up. I have worked in tech for many years, but only by doing enterprise sales and managing larger projects. Never through coding myself.

Two months into the startup my naivety in how long stuff takes to code was killed. Initially we estimated it would take about a month to build a prototype, but that has now turned into 3. We are bootstrapping this so validating the product as early as possible is integral. As I currently have a lot of free time on my hand and I need this startup to succeed, I thought why not take up programming. I've always felt a bit dumbfound working in tech, but not truly understanding it to the core. I wanted to remove that fog and develop a better understanding with programming logic.

I started learning Python because it seemed like a good syntax to begin with and it seems to be very reliable in solving many problems in the domains I work in.

Boy, how fun this is! One week in I can't understand why I haven't started learning this before. Programming seems to be just the kind of problem solving I like doing.

Two weeks in I have multiple scrapers running on AWS Lambda and a few other scripts which cleans and analyse everything I scrape, in addition to feeding this to a mysql server which my developer will get and use for our startup. The feeling of building something that is actually useful to our business feels so fantastic. And its a testament to how simple Python is to learn.

I'll dedicate a lot of time to programming the next few years. As I have a few ideas that I want to build prototypes for and I love data science, bitcoin & automation I'm probably gonna focus on:

- Python and all of the data science packages like pandas, SciPy etc
- Flask
- Javascript

Right now I'm just spending the next few weeks on learning Python, pandas and databases. Gone through codecademy, 'automate the boring stuff with python' and now doing 'learning python the hard way'.

I'm also keen on trying to find some work down the line to learn faster. I have read this whole thread and its a great place for information. I'll be following it from now on and probably shoot some questions from time to time.

Post: #579

If programming interests you and you are interested in building a web application you should check out django or flask. They are both web frameworks powered by python.

Post: #580

I've been learning to code now for about 10 months or so. I started of with python, basically following the OP's advice. After getting some projects on to my github and a portfolio website set up I decided to just send out some applications to recruiters just to test the waters really.

Currently I've had one call back from a recruiter and I've got an interview coming up in a couple of weeks for a junior developer position.

Alot of the junior developer jobs here in the UK are wanting Javascript, so i've started to learn this as well. In fact if I had to choose a starting language I'd probably choose Javascript.

Post: #581

What projects did you do TylerDurden1993?

Post: #582

On breaking into the field: when I was starting out 8+ years ago, I built up a solid reputation on ODesk (it's now called Upwork) by charging super low rates initially and working my way up. Then I had a couple of multi-month full-time projects, so I had something to put on my resume, which helped me get a "real" job. I've worked at a few small and large companies including FANG since then.

Post: #583

(12-28-2018 06:43 PM)B-Minus Wrote:  What projects did you do TylerDurden1993?

Most of my projects have been using Django. I have a couple of website clone projects. A couple of blogs and a personal portfolio site.

I've got two projects hosted on the internet;

one of them is a clone website that I put on pythonanywhere.com (you can host one project on there for free).

The other one is my personal portfolio site that's hosted on a VPS using Digital Ocean. I include the URL on my CV and cover letter. This contains a description of projects I've been working on and a blog site where I post what I've been learning.

My other project is a blackjack game that you play in the command line.

Post: #584

For those of you who are web developers, is Angular overtaking AngularJS or is the latter still preferred? I know Angular made some huge changes such as getting ride of scope and moving the language used from Javascript to Typescript.

Post: #585

Can anyone comment on the viability of going to one of these coder camp schools that offers to get you into a $120,000+/yr job after graduating from their 8-12 week program? (I would post a link, but it's been a while since I saw one of these FB ads in my newsfeed)

Post: #586

Man, getting into python syntax after Java makes me feel like a kid in growns ups world. After getting so many recommendations to learn Python, I now am embracing on the journey. See you on the other side.

(04-04-2018 11:53 AM)Gopnik Wrote:  Slightly off topic, but thought I'd share an old video and article from Maverick Traveler about his experiences in programming.





https://mavericktraveler.com/6-reasons-w...ogrammers/

He basically argues that programming fucks your social skills, forces you to compete against cheap labour from india and after only a few years most programmers move to a managerial role (it's meant to be a promotion I think, but he seems to mean this in a negative way which seems a bit contradictive).

If programming fucks up your social skills you are a pussy who had no social skills at the first place. Any man who has studied game isn't gonna suddenly lose his social skills.
However like Godzilla said, warm up is most likely necessary if you plan going on a date, but that isn't programming inclusive. You wouldn't go on a date straight after doing hours of anything problem solving related anyway.

Post: #587

Thought i'd update this thread.

I've currently had 3 interviews so far with 1 coming up on Tuesday.

One of them was just a standard interview asking about what i've been doing project wise and explaining what the company did. Not so positive about this one to be honest just a gut feeling.

One of them was explaining what the company did, then some questions on postgresql, this was painful as i've only really used it through Django. Also some questions on the theory of web development which I struggled with as well. Did some python coding challenges the first two were easy then I had one with a recursive function eventually got it and then explained what would happen eventually if allowed to run without logic to stop it. This is probably a no as i think they want someone who's really good with postgres.

Final One was an online interview with some python coding challenges which I got through then a few days later I had to do a coding challenge with Django, a few things threw me off but I did some of the questions but not enough to get to the next stage of the process.

Overall these are my first round of interviews, moving forward I need to brush up more on the theory of what's happening behind the scenes with web development. I also need to try and do more coding challenges so I can think more on the spot.

Post: #588

Maybe not. I always ask juniors hard questions. The point is not that they'll answer them, they usually don't. I want to see the limits of their knowledge and how they attack the problem. Just because they can't answer doesn't mean they won't be good hires.

Sometimes, of course, they do answer the hard questions and you snap those stars up.

The point I am trying to make: Don't think you have to know everything.

Post: #589

Only with the help of the established portfolio

Post: #590

Just thought i'd let you guys know I've got a job as a python developer. To start with I just basically followed the OP's advice so here in the UK his advice is still good almost 6 years later. I start on Monday.

Overall it took me 12 months from starting to getting a job. However for 8 of them months I had another job and was only putting in around an hour a day on it. After it finished I upped it to 3-4 hours a day. I think if you started out at 3-4 hours a day with your main professional aim of getting a job in the industry you could do it in a lot shorter time.

I had two more job interviews. I actually got both of them but one offered me a job the next day and one took 3 weeks so by the time the second company had offered me the job I'd already accepted the other one and got a place to stay sorted etc.

The interview that I got the job went like this, first part of the interview was asking me why I got into software etc., what i'd been doing, how i'd learnt it. They then said they had a developer check my github page out and said it was good enough so i wouldn't be asked any technical questions. Then they gave me a brain teaser question, like something you'd expect on an IQ test. After i'd solved it they were asking me to look at properties in the area, when could I start etc. They then offered me the job the next day.

The second interview went as followed the first half of the interview was general interview questions (I won't bore you with the details). The second half was a practical challenge basically using the datetime module in python. I could only use the official docs to help me solve it no stackoverflow etc. After some hints I eventfully managed to solve 2/4 of the challenges however I wasted alot of the time at the start just reading the docs with no clue of how to do it. As id never really used it before

If anyone's got any questions mention them here or PM me.

Post: #591

Awesome advice. I'm applying to python jobs as well but don't have an official CS degreee. I tried some of the online tutorial stuff but it was difficult getting self-started. I finally ended up taking an online class at the community college which was more expensive but better at the personal level. I also find reading a textbook to be easier to absorb than online stuff. I don't have any real working experience and I don't think my city has many python jobs. I'll have to apply to jobs at the bigger cities. I do like python and think its easier than C++ and Java to learn and use. I have been trying to learn IOS programming but it seems overly complicated with all the attaching arrows to buttons and different pages of coding.

Post: #592

(03-02-2019 04:38 PM)tylerdurden1993 Wrote:  Then they gave me a brain teaser question, like something you'd expect on an IQ test.

Yup, those are back in trend (and just as dumb as always).

Let's be honest, most developer jobs are not that interesting, selecting for high-IQ employees will just increase the company's turnover.

Post: #593

(03-02-2019 04:38 PM)tylerdurden1993 Wrote:  Just thought i'd let you guys know I've got a job as a python developer. To start with I just basically followed the OP's advice so here in the UK his advice is still good almost 6 years later. I start on Monday.

Overall it took me 12 months from starting to getting a job. However for 8 of them months I had another job and was only putting in around an hour a day on it. After it finished I upped it to 3-4 hours a day. I think if you started out at 3-4 hours a day with your main professional aim of getting a job in the industry you could do it in a lot shorter time.

I had two more job interviews. I actually got both of them but one offered me a job the next day and one took 3 weeks so by the time the second company had offered me the job I'd already accepted the other one and got a place to stay sorted etc.

The interview that I got the job went like this, first part of the interview was asking me why I got into software etc., what i'd been doing, how i'd learnt it. They then said they had a developer check my github page out and said it was good enough so i wouldn't be asked any technical questions. Then they gave me a brain teaser question, like something you'd expect on an IQ test. After i'd solved it they were asking me to look at properties in the area, when could I start etc. They then offered me the job the next day.

The second interview went as followed the first half of the interview was general interview questions (I won't bore you with the details). The second half was a practical challenge basically using the datetime module in python. I could only use the official docs to help me solve it no stackoverflow etc. After some hints I eventfully managed to solve 2/4 of the challenges however I wasted alot of the time at the start just reading the docs with no clue of how to do it. As id never really used it before

If anyone's got any questions mention them here or PM me.

Nice one buddy, I have some questions for you if don't mind (can't PM for some reason)

I'm also in the UK, and just started learning python last week as I'm hating my current job. Looking to do as many hours a day as I can now, and then quit this job to concentrate on it fully

Did you also end up learning a good amount of JavaScript before getting the job offers?

What is your salary like for your first job, and did you have to move to London? The majority of the jobs that I saw are based there.

Did you use recruitment sites such as Reed or Indeed, or did you go about contacting the actual companies direct?

What was the most useful resource for you when learning to code? I've started out with Colt Steele's Python Bootcamp on Udemy and it seems good so far

Thanks for any answers

Post: #594

(03-05-2019 10:48 AM)DigitalAnimal Wrote:  Nice one buddy, I have some questions for you if don't mind (can't PM for some reason)

I'm also in the UK, and just started learning python last week as I'm hating my current job. Looking to do as many hours a day as I can now, and then quit this job to concentrate on it fully

Did you also end up learning a good amount of JavaScript before getting the job offers?

What is your salary like for your first job, and did you have to move to London? The majority of the jobs that I saw are based there.

Did you use recruitment sites such as Reed or Indeed, or did you go about contacting the actual companies direct?

What was the most useful resource for you when learning to code? I've started out with Colt Steele's Python Bootcamp on Udemy and it seems good so far

Thanks for any answers

I learnt a bit of Javascript but I don't think it was vital to me getting the job. I mainly learnt how to do stuff with the DOM, how to add event listeners, just basic stuff really. However for my current job I'm going to have to learn it in alot more detail as the software I'm working on uses it quite alot.

Saying that if you choose to continue to learn Python just commit to learning it don't try and learn Javascript as well. So learn the basics and once you feel comfortable with that start doing some projects, once you have some projects on your github then if you want to, start learning Javascript.

Saying that from research on youtube the fastest way to get a job is to learn HTML, CSS, Javascript and one Javascript Framework i.e. React

I didn't move to London I live in a small town. It is near to London though. But you don't have to move to London. My salary is in the mid 20's a year before tax.

I actually got my job through an advert through indeed. However I would also try to contact companies direct, network etc. But when you're ready to look for a job make sure you get a good cover letter and CV and also search for jobs via indeed etc.

I used the resources the OP suggested as they were free. Then I used some udemy courses. The udemy courses I used were related to Django though.

I'd suggest doing some free resources plus your course on udemy before you decide to purchase more stuff. Also if you can, try and keep a job so at least you have money coming in etc.

This youtube channel is good for wannabe developers who are looking to learn and get jobs.

Post: #595

(03-02-2019 04:38 PM)tylerdurden1993 Wrote:  The interview that I got the job went like this, first part of the interview was asking me why I got into software etc., what i'd been doing, how i'd learnt it. They then said they had a developer check my github page out and said it was good enough so i wouldn't be asked any technical questions. Then they gave me a brain teaser question, like something you'd expect on an IQ test. After i'd solved it they were asking me to look at properties in the area, when could I start etc. They then offered me the job the next day.

What kind of things did you have on your github?

Post: #596

(03-07-2019 01:56 PM)tylerdurden1993 Wrote:  Saying that if you choose to continue to learn Python just commit to learning it don't try and learn Javascript as well. So learn the basics and once you feel comfortable with that start doing some projects, once you have some projects on your github then if you want to, start learning Javascript.

Saying that from research on youtube the fastest way to get a job is to learn HTML, CSS, Javascript and one Javascript Framework i.e. React

Good points here although it may seem contradictory.

In today's web dev world you will not go anywhere not knowing JS. That said, having much more specific experience in 1 language puts you ahead of the competition for jobs requiring that 1 language.

Figure out the jobs you want and the tech stack. Don't learn JS and then apply for ML jobs using Python.

Post: #597

(03-07-2019 08:46 PM)dasher Wrote:  What kind of things did you have on your github?

Most of my projects on there were using Django. I have a couple of website clone projects. A couple of blogs and a personal portfolio site.

I've got two projects hosted on the internet one of them is a clone website that I put on pythonanywhere.com (you can host one project on there for free).

The other one is my personal portfolio site that's hosted on a VPS using Digital Ocean. I include the URL on my CV and cover letter. This contains a description of projects I've been working on and a blog site where I post what I've been learning.

My other project is a blackjack game that you play in the command line.

Apart from a github I would also have a personal portfolio website which has all your projects on it that you've completed with an explanation of the project, how you did it etc. I would then host it on the internet. This is useful for adding on a CV/cover letter when you apply for jobs as when you first apply non-programmers will be reading your application at first.

Post: #598

Most programming/engineering 'interviews' are a pretentious farce, and won't accurately gauge what you'd bring to the table in a conventional scenario. It's more like taking an awkward, standardized test than anything else (I've documented the common methods on the first page of this thead). Some will even hit you with pedantic concepts (in the realm of algorithms and data structures) that are almost entirely inapplicable when solving real world problems.

Before wasting your time with laborious on-site interviews-- make sure to screen for the exact skills and expectations the particular company is aiming for from the onset (otherwise you'll get buried when faced with some obtuse problem they want you to solve). It all depends on if the employer are willing to on-board someone with common-sense, who can pick up on new technologies and languages quickly- or if they need a specialized code monkey right out of the gate.

The common, shitty interview procedures are likely a result of the explosive growth of computer science students and mediocre brogrammers in the last decade. While technical/programming roles are plentiful at a myrid of companies, many of the top-tier players in the industry can afford to be as selective as they want.

Feel free to PM me if you're just starting to interview for tech roles and have any questions.

Post: #599

So here are some free nanodegree content from Udacity's nanodegree courses which is from ios, android app, video game development, full stack web developer, machine learning nanodegree's. Very quality. just scroll down:

https://github.com/ayaanfaiz/udacity-nanodegrees

Post: #600

(01-14-2019 01:09 PM)loremipsum Wrote:  If programming fucks up your social skills you are a pussy who had no social skills at the first place. Any man who has studied game isn't gonna suddenly lose his social skills.
However like Godzilla said, warm up is most likely necessary if you plan going on a date, but that isn't programming inclusive. You wouldn't go on a date straight after doing hours of anything problem solving related anyway.

I think a major point for anyone looking into this is the following:

- If you have no social skills, you will probably be coding forever. Unfortunately, so far, it's an up-or-out industry to some extent. The number of 55-year-old guys who are kept around because they know some valuable legacy shit inside and out is dwarfed by the number of 55-year-old guys who "used to program" because they didn't keep up with anything marketable, and then they just aged out of the industry entirely.

- If you have social skills to go with clear technical thinking, you will be an indispensable interface between your corner of any organization and the rest of the organization as well as outside teams. You'll be the person non-technical people want to work with to get their needs across to technical people, and on track to be a decision-maker and lead. You can largely get a job anywhere, pick what you want to do, and become part of the culture wherever you go.

You want to be in that latter group. Programming does not require people skills, but being a useful programmer in a business environment does, and that's where the biggest shortage is.