Post: #1

Very interesting phenomenon where employees are starting to just disappear and not bothering with the standard 2 week notice. This is by no means a crisis (yet) but significant enough that the Washington Post recently did a piece on it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/...a2ee4e40f9

Quote:National data on economic “ghosting” is lacking. The term, which usually applies to dating, first surfaced in 2016 on Dictionary.com. But companies across the country say silent exits are on the rise.

Analysts blame America’s increasingly tight labor market. Job openings have surpassed the number of seekers for eight straight months, and the unemployment rate has clung to a 49-year low of 3.7 percent since September.

Personally, I'm not surprised by this given how employees are treated by most companies (like dog shit). That and the whole recruitment and hiring process must be driving people up the wall, with some employers dangling job offers in prospective candidates' faces, only to rescind them later. The article seems to miss that part. That being said, I don't think it's a good idea to burn bridges like that.

Post: #2

(02-07-2019 10:27 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Very interesting phenomenon where employees are starting to just disappear and not bothering with the standard 2 week notice. This is by no means a crisis (yet) but significant enough that the Washington Post recently did a piece on it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/...a2ee4e40f9

Quote:National data on economic “ghosting” is lacking. The term, which usually applies to dating, first surfaced in 2016 on Dictionary.com. But companies across the country say silent exits are on the rise.

Analysts blame America’s increasingly tight labor market. Job openings have surpassed the number of seekers for eight straight months, and the unemployment rate has clung to a 49-year low of 3.7 percent since September.

Personally, I'm not surprised by this given how employees are treated by most companies (like dog shit). That and the whole recruitment and hiring process must be driving people up the wall, with some employers dangling job offers in prospective candidates' faces, only to rescind them later. The article seems to miss that part. That being said, I don't think it's a good idea to burn bridges like that.

I saw this earlier this month on this blog: https://www.asktheheadhunter.com/blog

(quick summary of the blog - mostly gives good advice for job hunting, tends to make employees to be saints and employers to be evil, knows HR is a shitshow but for some reason is completely cucked on diversity/women in tech issues, but otherwise an interesting read).

I don't think employees ghosting is much of a "phenomenon" as they make it out to be, most will quit or be fired. Not many people would disappear from their white collar job, if you work the till at Sainsbury's then yeah you might just say fuck it and disappear.

It's nice to think employees are shafting employers after being shafted for so long, but I have never seen it done this way.
Agree with not burning bridges unless absolutely have no other choice.

Post: #3

I was let go of a job with no warning. My sales figures were not up to par, as I was new to the job. No warning, no chance to pull myself up. Fuck employers.

Post: #4

I've never quit without notice, but I will say that if I have a job offer, and I need to wait to start the new job until a two week notice is completed at my old job, it makes me paranoid as hell that something will change with the offer for the new job. I can understand the temptation to tell the new job I could start immediately.

Post: #5

These companies get what they put out. Bosses these days are such irredeemable pricks since they know most jobs only pay you just enough to survive. They always ask for more while not bumping your pay up. Why would you give your wage-slave master any notice when you're about to do to him what he's always done to you.

Post: #6

I've heard of this, but it was about millennials not showing up for scheduled interviews or not showing up for their first day of work after getting the job.

Post: #7

Besides what everyone else has said, I think "ghosting" in general happens because people are more transient and have little connection to their communities.

Decades ago if you ghosted a girl or a boss, you'd eventually bump into someone from the neighborhood who would chide you for screwing over those people, who were either their friend, business associate, or relative. You'd get a bad reputation for bad behavior.

Nowadays, the townspeople have scattered so you won't bump into them anymore. The families divorced (or never formed in the first place). The kids don't come back to where they grew up after college. Businesses aren't locally-owned, but chains or franchises. People have become "consumers" and "economic units," not friends or relations. Nobody knows anybody in their own neighborhoods, so you can screw anyone over without fear of local repercussion.

Ironically, if you look at a woman sideways, she'll put you "on blast" on Twitter. But the good news is that she can't get her brother (or dad) to beat you up anymore because odds are she lives hundreds of miles away from them.

Post: #8

I remember an American ex who actually gave notice and then promptly got fired. There's something about that kind of asshole move that just seems crazy from a Scandinavian point of view. I do realize easier to fire means easier to hire, but still...

Post: #9

(02-07-2019 11:12 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  Ironically, if you look at a woman sideways, she'll put you "on blast" on Twitter. But the good news is that she can't get her brother (or dad) to beat you up anymore because odds are she lives hundreds of miles away from them.

This made me chuckle.

I remember the days of worrying about someone's brother whooping my ass for some shit I said. Nowadays the world has headed in such a direction that you can roll up on people at their place of work, beat the fuck out of them and walk off and no one will raise a hand to aid their "work mate." I've actually heard of this happening to people in USA and China.

Honestly, one of the things that made me happiest during my last visit home was that my family has sort of crystallized around a few core members (elders). I actually felt like I was back at home and not just visiting a place I grew up.

Post: #10

If I had a real career job (Hospitalist, Head of Internal Medicine,Chief Counsel) I would definitely 2 weeks notice, do exit interviews and maintain connections-But with shit work (contract consulting, document review, medical chart review) they can suck my dick. These shit work jobs treat you like shit, pay you like shit, and are not deserving of any notice of any kind-They are like Tinder sluts that demand to be treated like Traditional virgin brides- I am already a wage slave to a temporary dead end job, now you want me to pretend this is a career? Fuck you , I am out-figure it out after my chair is empty for 3 days and I do not return emails or texts-I am off to the next gig that pays more or has a glimmer of hope for advancement.

Post: #11

(02-07-2019 11:28 AM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  If I had a real career job (Hospitalist, Head of Internal Medicine,Chief Counsel) I would definitely 2 weeks notice, do exit interviews and maintain connections-But with shit work (contract consulting, document review, medical chart review) they can suck my dick. These shit work jobs treat you like shit, pay you like shit, and are not deserving of any notice of any kind-They are like Tinder sluts that demand to be treated like Traditional virgin brides- I am already a wage slave to a temporary dead end job, now you want me to pretend this is a career? Fuck you , I am out-figure it out after my chair is empty for 3 days and I do not return emails or texts-I am off to the next gig that pays more or has a glimmer of hope for advancement.

I like that - abundance mentality.
The difference is that if you bail on a bitch it can only raise your status in the eyes of the next bitch.
Bailing on a job, even a shit one, can fuck up your chances of being employed by related companies, especially with large corporates who robotically demand references from previous employers.

Post: #12

(02-07-2019 11:28 AM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  These shit work jobs treat you like shit, pay you like shit, and are not deserving of any notice of any kind-They are like Tinder sluts that demand to be treated like Traditional virgin brides- I am already a wage slave to a temporary dead end job, now you want me to pretend this is a career? Fuck you

The average corporation does not give a flying fuck if their employees live or die. I am convinced there are plenty of executives and corporate boards who would literally kill their employees to raise the share price, or get a slightly larger bonus, and think nothing of it. Many are malicious, scheming opportunists and deserve nothing but contempt from honest working people.

I got recruited for a sales job a few years ago, on the basis that it was a minimum 20% raise from my current salary, with excellent room for growth.

When I got there, it was clear they had totally lied to me, and caused me to leave my previous job for this new one. When I brought up my concerns to the VP of Sales, he treated me with total contempt, barely containing his rage at the idea that I would question him. He clearly thought I should essentially be his slave, shut my mouth, and happily work for 65% of what I was promised.

"Ghosting" is honestly the mildest retribution these people deserve, for messing with people's lives like its nothing.

Post: #13

^^^I wish I could like this comment twice.

Post: #14

I'm serial ship jumper and will leave a job for another one without hesitation but almost always give two weeks notice because my industry is small and word will get around if I leave a company scrambling to find a replacement. I realize that the corporate bean counters and executives don't give a shit but our managers do and that's why I give notice because I don't want to inconvenience them and I want to maintain good relations, again, it's a small industry.

I know that many companies are portrayed as souless entities that only care about the bottom line and it's true but many managers do care. When I had to take time off at the last minute because my dad was dying and I had to go take care of him on the other side of the country, my boss told me to take as much time off as I needed and said that he hopes his own son will be able to do the same when the time comes. Eight months later, after my dad passed away, my job was waiting for me when I came back. I still jumped ships a few months later when the work slowed down though!

Post: #15

Again, this sounds like a young person thing. Older people with families and 401K's don't just disappear. And good luck using them as a reference when you bail like that.

Post: #16

Be creative.

Accept the new job and tell your current boss that your grandmother died and you have to go to the other side of the country to arrange the funeral. If he gives you shit then he's the asshole and you leave without hassles. Either way you immediately begin work at your new place of employment and feel it out to make sure you're not being sold a raw deal. After a week or two you can give notice and your old boss has already covered your shifts anyway so it's not like you've fucked him or anything.

Post: #17

To be fair, a "ghoster" could be a dude that was looking at several job offers and finally settling on the most lucrative one, but still not a wise move to just disappear.

Post: #18

(02-07-2019 11:13 AM)Akwesi Wrote:  I remember an American ex who actually gave notice and then promptly got fired. There's something about that kind of asshole move that just seems crazy from a Scandinavian point of view. I do realize easier to fire means easier to hire, but still...

There’s actually reasons for doing this.
1. If you’re leaving to work for a competitor, I want to minimize the amount of damage you can potentially do to my business to curry favor with your new employer.
2. If you’re leaving, it’s clear you’re not happy here. I don’t want you creating an environment of discontent. I don’t want you telling my employees “I’m going to work for X, you should too.”

Leaving a job is kind of like breaking up with someone. When you break up, break up. Be done with it.

Post: #19

Damn right! Good to hear things going in the right direction. Employers have way too much power in most developed economies.

Notice period is bullshit anyway, if an employee doesnt want to be somewhere they are not slaves that can be forced.

More bullshit is the whole gaps in employment = reg flags. The idea being that any amount of time outside of paid full-time employment means your CV should go in the bin. "Hey, we have lots of good slaves who always stay in work, if you have the independence to not be employed for some time, you wont be a good slave so we dont want you"

You know how many times I have heard (mostly) women say "I am unemployable" because they have been out of work for some time, usually raising children. How the fuck does not having worked for a few years make one "unemployable", but this is how our system works. Independence = trouble.

A lot of this has to do with women entering the workforce but also weak men who have ridden the technology-driven economic boom and have individualised their 'achievements' ie shitty middle class existence to the point of actually believing they are somehow unique, better than others, and hence should never collectivise as they are too good to be part of a community of peers.

Post: #20

The people saying you shouldnt do this dont get the point.

Workers should do everything they can to undermine the power employers have in certain situations.

Fake references all the time - references are bulshit anyway, everyone knows this, bulshit dates on CV to cover gaps. If emplyers see more people doing this they are less likely to check and soon will stop caring about employment gaps and such.

LinkedIN, CV, and references all allow employers greater power over employees as EVERYTHING IS RECORDED AND CAN COME BACK TO YOU AT ANY TIME - we need to undermine this process so employers dont get complacent but actually look for good candidates with skills and talents, rather than HR-based superficials like work history, employment gaps, references etc.

There are companies in the UK that can provide fake references - people have had very good results with this technique, which just shows HR is too keen to dispose of CVs for lacking work history in areas they dont understand.

Post: #21

Good.

About time employers got some of Their own medicine.

Post: #22

In Germany we have the term "internal resignation" it means when an employee don't feel anything for the job any more, just do the basic tasks. The employee will not leave because there is no better option possible at the moment. Numbers say this goes up to 40 % of people.
Just today I read, about 50 % wouldn't tell their boss if there are any problems or issues.

I see a shift in the job marked, in Germany there is a lack of certain jobs and then companies contact you. Quite some time since I wrote an application where I did the first move.
When you are at linkedin or at Xing - very popular in the German marked then its quite easy. There are enough companies that behave like you should be gratefull that you can work for them. They ignore your inputs for improvement, ignore your concerns and you are just there for rising the share. Most managers mistrust you - why did they even hire you then?
Many companies and managers behave like in the 1950s, today people don't stick up with to much nonsense. Some call it weak or millennial. I have pity for those people that go home every evening, bitch about their boss, the company and their job but don't have the balls to leave. When you know your value, have the skills, you shouln't stick with a negative job environment.

I'm glad that the job marked changed and when you are skilled you don't have to deal with a lot of nonsense. When you notice your positive input don't work and you don't get where you want, leave. Its very easy to react to the offers of head hunters, write your resignation letter and thats it. When your manager want to give you a better offer its even a cheaper move from them. They didn't care about you when you had be part of the company, improved your knowledge, skills and marked value. You have to fight for every penny more. When you change you can improve your salary often for 20 to 30 %.

Just talking about sales here in Germany.

Post: #23

I think this happens in a lot of cases where the person knows they can't or won't get a reference from the company, and there is no severance pay, so what is the point in giving two weeks notice, especially with some companies that kick people out of the building when they do give notice?

One of my customer sites use to do this all the time, fire or lay off people with no warning. People would get called in to HR or the general manager's office without any warning and then told they were out. Usually, as they went into the meeting, their login and email was disabled.


I argued against doing such things since at times it created problems. Some of the examples:

1: One laid off person got all of the notices for incoming cargo container shipments. IT was told to forward that person's emails to someone else, but instead, within 30 minutes of the person being booted out of the building, the on site system administrator gets a message that the person email address was deleted. It took days for corporate IT to restore the email address (email addresses are intertwined with an ERP system) so the site could get arrival notices of cargo containers.

2: Many people were let got with little to no warning, and no severance pay, and no expectation of getting a good reference from anyone on site, so why would anyone let go like this help anyone there?
A number of times people were working on things and the person who took over only had a bunch of computer files and boxes of documents with no idea of what or how things fit together and no one they could ask because of the way the company did the layoff/firing.

3: I was the only person at this site, ever, that 'when my time came', I 'just happened' to call in early in the morning and say I would not be in that day. They called me and wanted to 'talked to me' about 9:30am in the morning, and the company was in some confusion since I was not there for the whole planned routine. (I got the call while on the the way to my friend's business for the day to visit and refused to talk to them.) There was also concern on their part since it looked like things, on my part, were arranged in that I did not have to ever return to the site or talk with any of them there again. I heard through other people there was some concern that I was going to retaliate against them (company was involved with what looked like to me FCPA violations in China and I had been asking questions). I had thought they would have offered a final payment in order to ensure I stayed quiet, but typical corporate that would have meant the people involved would have had to fess up and then others would have something to use against them.

Later, at that site, the entire accounting department fell apart, I was gone, the controller was gone, the staff accountant was gone and a group controller even left because 'he felt he was doing work that was not at his level'. Where before we use to close the books all the time within 5 business days, it now takes them 10 to 15 days. Where before, for over a decade, the site always showed a profit except for two months, now the site loses money almost every month.

I could go on and on about the, what one can describe, as psychotic behavior this company and many companies show their employees, and then the companies act shocked when someone leaves with no notice!

I think the argument is that ghosting needs to happen MORE often to companies to get them to stop treating people so poorly. The current generation of narcissistic managers and executives will only change their behavior once some kind of disaster happens because someone they were making life miserable for leaves and it effects them.

Many companies have a POLICY where if someone gives notice they kicked them right out of the building that day, so you can't have a transition with whoever will be taking over your position, you can't arrange any last day events or small meeting at a restaurant because if the company finds out they will kick you out ahead of time, etc.

The ONLY thing most companies seem to excel at is engaging in psychopathic behavior and rewarding management that engages in such behavior. I also notice that at most organizations the only people that do well and rise to the top today are absolute charlatans where the company is doing worse and worse, but somehow they convince others to promote them and pay them more and more money, and the people are more and more unhappy with their treatment. Anyone that points out problems is discredited as 'disgruntled' and targeted for removal from the company. Even worse, I see people, that go through the same kind of problems, side with management most of the times!

As an example, Case in Point: GE
This company is over 100 years old and has even its own management university/leadership campus that it runs on Long Island, NY every summer. I have even seen posting for positions in other companies, for reasonable high mid level positions, looking for people that took part in such programs, YET in spite of such alleged 'bright lights' in management, the entire company appears to be going bankrupt. To me, it looks like the company only has a few more years left, they spent billions on stock buybacks to keep pushing the stock price higher and higher, but after almost reaching $60/share in 2000, the stock today is at $10 and people STILL keep writing articles on seekingalpha.com about how there is all kinds of value and things are going to turn around!

One thing people do not seem to directly connect, is that if there was the expectation that a good reference could be gotten from the company, or reasonable severance, then people would NOT engage in ghosting a company. People do not ghost a company when there are reasons not to do so, but where many times there is absolutely no reason to give notice, especially if you are going to get a bad reference, then what incentive is there to give any notice? If anything, the incentive is to hurry up and get another job so you do not run into the problem of 'why did you leave your last job'.

In my recent transition period for getting more projects, I can only say that it has been absolutely absurd the things people are being put through to be allowed to do work at a company:

1: Drug tests - No one use to care, except some jobs with security clearances or transport, now more and more companies somehow thinks drug testing everyone is a 'good idea' but seem to have no data or study to show the correlation between drug testing and job performance.

2: Credit Checks - So now people who need a job to pay their bills, and are probably behind if they have been out of work for a while and have their credit ruined, may be not hired. In some states, credit checks are not allowed and again, companies seem to have no data or study to show the correlation between drug testing and job performance.

3: Personality Tests - God I HATE the Myers-Briggs assessment test. I have had a number of places give this to me in the recent transition. As a general rule, things like these tests and assessments seem to run in 5 to 10 year cycles, where they are in vogue for a while, and then companies stop using them as they realize they are spending money for nothing. Jordan Peterson reports that the correlation with things like Myers-Briggs is like .2 or .25, you square that so the test predicts only 4% or 5% of the performance and it only predicts within a certain range of managers. So you have companies spending something like $10 per test to evaluate people, per every test, and it can't even predict anything. And of course, the companies never are allowed to get the ability to score the tests themselves so the companies selling these test have lock on scoring and reporting the results.

4: Hand writing tests - This appears to be out of favor at the moment, but in some past cycle companies would send out a sample of hand writing for an 'analysis'. Of course, I do not think there is ANY correlation between a sample of hand writing and job performance, but companies did it anyways.

5: Microsoft Excel test and Accounting tests - Things appear to be so bad in the work force, that I have been asked several times, prior to coming in to present, to take a short Excel or Accounting test. I have 20 years experience, an IT background plus MBA and MSF degrees, but the companies 'need to make sure' I can use Excel and know if COGS is usually has a credit or debit balance?!?!?!?
I have even had people ask me accounting questions after the end of presentation.

6: Phone Recorded interviews - I refuse to do these. I did one ONCE. A recording asks you a question and then you have minute or so to answer. If they want me to answer a question, get on the phone with me and talk with me!

7: Bringing in endless people - In the past, companies would put out a posting, maybe get a number of responses, filter it down to about 10, then call in three to interview. The best one of the three would be called back for a second interview and if all went well, an offer would be made (or the project go forward).
In the 'current era' I have been part of a group of ten presentations for a project, and the decision making went on so long that I though the project was 'dead'. I got an update after several weeks saying that things were still being evaluated.

In many respects, getting a project or a job, while you need experience and education, is in many ways almost random since companies seem to spend endless time looking at people to do the work in trying to find the 'perfect' person. While this 'may' work for entry level jobs, the people at my level are the results of 10 or 20 years of work plus degrees and certifications. When companies 'can't find anyone to do the work', usually because their criteria is too high or pay offered too low, there simply is not going to be someone coming along for at least several years since it takes time to get to that level of experience plus companies put people through an absurd amount of things before they are allowed to do any work.

Post: #24

They dont give uou a 2 week notice when they are gonna fire you. So why not reciprocate?

Post: #25

I've done this a lot for reasons mentioned above. Community is a big factor. They were low end jobs with people I wouldn't see again, so I didn't feel the need to tame the bridge. Plus pay was almost always low.

Once I ghosted an interview because I found out from a friend that the company had pretty shady ethics and set employees up for borderline fraud with their work. Another time I quit a monkey job after two days really because I felt like I was above the work and high school gossip environment. Life was honestly too short to put up with that. Just told them next shift over the phone that I'm not coming in anymore. Another time I quit a job after one day because I found out the interviewers blatantly lied about my job responsibilities and how I'd get paid.

These companies don't care and most will go on without you flawlessly. It may just be an indirect response to the degree of the job and lack of increasing benefits with cost of living. Or we just live in a society where both sides have lost social etiquette a bit.