Post: #1

Just sharing observations on a couple of experiences.

Bar psychopaths, all people have a desire to be seen as good people. People generally don't like to feel like or be told they are Nazis, deplorables or pro-rape. If you call people such names or otherwise infer they are bad, they probably won't listen to you.

The extent to which people are concerned with their public or self-image as a good person is variable and it's something that will be more noticeable as an individual has handled other areas of their life like finances, a house, relationships etc. It's why so many celebrities with their throngs of groupies and fleet of private jets resort to rampant virtue signalling. They have every pleasure in the world and are still unhappy. They think if they can become a good person they will feel good. They don't.

While telling someone they are bad is a sure fire way to get them to ignore you, calling into question someone's self-image as a good person can have them following your intent very quickly.

1) About ten years ago a guy stole what would now be about $7,000 from me. This guy made a big thing of his honour. He would always go on about how he's a "real bloke" and how he wears his heart on his sleeve. Of course, those who have to tell you those things do so because they aren't true.

For months I inquired when I am getting my money back. He just said it's coming and I never heard about it again. He had no real intention of paying. So I told him that's he's lost his honour. That he's made promises that he couldn't keep. But they key was invoking what his tyranising father would think of his behaviour. He blew his top and began paying me back over six months, though he needed constant cajoling.

2) A guy I didn't know stole some of my work and reproduced it as his own, which resulted in me losing what would now be about $1,500 of income. I found his phone number and called him. He refused to speak and told me to email him. I did and to my surprise it started an email chain of him backing himself into a corner, pretending he'd not stolen the content. He was obviously convinced by his own lies.

I did some research and found he was a Christian. I sent him an email telling him that what he did was not a very Christian thing to do. Those were the magic words that revealed to himself that he was a cunt and he stopped reproducing my work.

3) recently some guy stole $1,000 from me, as he lives on another continent it's too far to do anything about. I sent him a few emails, which I know he opened, but he didn't reply. So I looked him up on Facebook and see a post he made several years ago telling his friends that him being sacked from his job for fraud was a farce, he was a victim; and he ended it with a long drivel about how he is a good Christian.

So I email him and sternly drum into him that theft is an un-Christian act, showering in the reality that he is not who he pretends to be - a good Christian. He could hide his conscience no more. But it's too late. I deleted his reply and have posted on several places online about his theft and messaged his friends, family and pastor about his un-Christian behaviour.

They key with people who have wronged you is they will hide from themselves the reality of what they have done to you. Whatever lies they tell you to obfuscate and avoid, they also tell themselves as the average person is highly sensitive to adopting a negative self-image. It's easier to have an invented reality, than reality. You must make them confront the reality.

To get them to right the wrong requires you find the Achilles's heel of their image of themselves, i.e. being a Christian or a male feminist. If you can start destroying the ways they see themselves that are most important to them, their lies to themselves will collapse and rectifying whatever wrong they have committed may become of more value to whatever they have got from stiffing you.

Lop off the top of Maslow's Herarchy. You can do that with their words. Carting away whatever they've stole from you is a bit more difficult.

Post: #2

Great post!

It's almost like a hostage situation where the other person has something you need to get back and the only recourse if you can't work it out is to keep escalating and take the matter to the authorities. I've had that happen before and done a Dog Day Afternoon sort of intervention. You're absolutely right that there's usually some sort of psychological bullshit going on underneath it all.

I find it much harder to make peace with women. Whenever I feel like I've talked them all the way down they always seem to backslide and manufacture new bullshit.

Post: #3

(09-27-2018 07:16 PM)gework Wrote:  Just sharing observations on a couple of experiences.

Bar psychopaths, all people have a desire to be seen as good people. People generally don't like to feel like or be told they are Nazis, deplorables or pro-rape. If you call people such names or otherwise infer they are bad, they probably won't listen to you.

The extent to which people are concerned with their public or self-image as a good person is variable and it's something that will be more noticeable as an individual has handled other areas of their life like finances, a house, relationships etc. It's why so many celebrities with their throngs of groupies and fleet of private jets resort to rampant virtue signalling. They have every pleasure in the world and are still unhappy. They think if they can become a good person they will feel good. They don't.

While telling someone they are bad is a sure fire way to get them to ignore you, calling into question someone's self-image as a good person can have them following your intent very quickly.

1) About ten years ago a guy stole what would now be about $7,000 from me. This guy made a big thing of his honour. He would always go on about how he's a "real bloke" and how he wears his heart on his sleeve. Of course, those who have to tell you those things do so because they aren't true.

For months I inquired when I am getting my money back. He just said it's coming and I never heard about it again. He had no real intention of paying. So I told him that's he's lost his honour. That he's made promises that he couldn't keep. But they key was invoking what his tyranising father would think of his behaviour. He blew his top and began paying me back over six months, though he needed constant cajoling.

2) A guy I didn't know stole some of my work and reproduced it as his own, which resulted in me losing what would now be about $1,500 of income. I found his phone number and called him. He refused to speak and told me to email him. I did and to my surprise it started an email chain of him backing himself into a corner, pretending he'd not stolen the content. He was obviously convinced by his own lies.

I did some research and found he was a Christian. I sent him an email telling him that what he did was not a very Christian thing to do. Those were the magic words that revealed to himself that he was a cunt and he stopped reproducing my work.

3) recently some guy stole $1,000 from me, as he lives on another continent it's too far to do anything about. I sent him a few emails, which I know he opened, but he didn't reply. So I looked him up on Facebook and see a post he made several years ago telling his friends that him being sacked from his job for fraud was a farce, he was a victim; and he ended it with a long drivel about how he is a good Christian.

So I email him and sternly drum into him that theft is an un-Christian act, showering in the reality that he is not who he pretends to be - a good Christian. He could hide his conscience no more. But it's too late. I deleted his reply and have posted on several places online about his theft and messaged his friends, family and pastor about his un-Christian behaviour.

They key with people who have wronged you is they will hide from themselves the reality of what they have done to you. Whatever lies they tell you to obfuscate and avoid, they also tell themselves as the average person is highly sensitive to adopting a negative self-image. It's easier to have an invented reality, than reality. You must make them confront the reality.

To get them to right the wrong requires you find the Achilles's heel of their image of themselves, i.e. being a Christian or a male feminist. If you can start destroying the ways they see themselves that are most important to them, their lies to themselves will collapse and rectifying whatever wrong they have committed may become of more value to whatever they have got from stiffing you.

Lop off the top of Maslow's Herarchy. You can do that with their words. Carting away whatever they've stole from you is a bit more difficult.

Probably a waste of time trying to convince them about their bullshit. Just cut these people off and avoid them. I think people would be surprised about the percentage of people that are sociopaths. This is different then psychopathic, as sociopaths are worried about consequences, hence they're worried about APPEARING like good people, simply because there are benefits to them in being perceived this way by others.

Post: #4

"Getting More" is a popular title on negotiation that addresses some of this: people have a picture of themselves in their head and painting how they actually look for them can really cause them to change their approach.

Post: #5

(09-27-2018 08:42 PM)nek Wrote:  Probably a waste of time trying to convince them about their bullshit.

You're not doing it out of the goodness of your heart or to become BFFs. The goal is to merely resolve the dispute with the minimum amount of damage to either side. It's about using empathy strategically. Once you actually get what you want, THEN you can proceed to never have anything to do with the person again.

Post: #6

No need to let it get to this stage.

You can cover your ass in a number of ways, such as formal written agreements/deeds, caveats or even registering a security interest.

In Australia, we have the Personal Property Securities Register. Even if the Company or Person becomes insolvent, you rank as a secured creditor. If they aren’t insolvent and they are recalcitrant, you can instigate proceedings to get your money back (plus costs).

Post: #7

So in essence what we're saying here is that people don't like the image they project to other people to be contradicted. Taken to its endpoint, this is narcissism: because the person is asking the world to acknowledge and reinforce the brand they project to the world. This is why all acts of charity done overtly where the person can be recognised are immediately suspect if not null and void: this is why the Bible tells people to do good acts in secret.

A man who claims he's good to his 30,000 Facebook followers is horribly fragile to a threat of showing those 30,000 Facebook followers who he really is ... or rather, that who he is is not consistent with the image he shows the world.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #8

Not so sure, whether that is actual convincing but more a form of manipulation and use of tactics to get your way. Don't take me wrong - what you did is not negative, just the use of clever force, extortion and negotiation to get your way. Some of them likely don't learn their lesson, but at least you get what you owe.

Post: #9

(09-28-2018 04:34 AM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  Some of them likely don't learn their lesson, but at least you get what you owe.

It's exceedingly rare to permanently "change" someone ala It's a Wonderful Life. More often than not you make a minor ripple in someone's life and they glide back to continuing the same patterns they were repeating before you came around.

It's really important to know the above whenever making an investment in someone else's self-improvement. Don't be too hung up on it "paying off" and know when to stop throwing the proverbial good money after bad.

Post: #10

< Or you take the long-term view and approach as some wise masters say.

When you believe in reincarnation, then no ripple and guidance, no moment of learning is totally lost - even if it may come to fruit in centuries.

Post: #11

Sounds like you use psychological tactics to find their weakness, their self perception
Once you engage with them on that level, you can negotiate the return of your belongings
You said of the 1st guy he'd lost his honor, when in fact it sounds like he had no honor, you challenged his self perception and he realised that he lacked that virtue
You held a mirror to the second guy so that he could see he wasn't living up to his self perception, and thanks to you, he changed his ways, like Simeon say's that ripple of guidance will be for the better for him and those around him over time
The third guy sounds like he lacks virtue, is self deceived but a good reminder for you to avoid people like him in the future