Post: #26

(07-06-2018 02:02 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(07-05-2018 04:18 PM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  I too have shifted to the human carnivorous diet recently and have never been more healthy - plus - it's the perfect beef resolution program.

But seriously - while it's possible to do without meat, some people probably have bodies that do much better with a carnivorous diet - Jordan Peterson and his family seem to be those people.

While I agree with the general assertion, his wife had a lot of improvement on it too, but she would have different genes, so quite a coincidence that she just happens to have the same natural predisposition, no?

That is because a paleo-close-diet, as well as a vegan non-sugar consuming diet will have positive effects vs the standard American they consumed before. Some are just more susceptible to an unhealthy diet than others, but it's not as if that stuff is healthy even for those who experience currently no health problems.

Post: #27

^ Yes, but I believe all three of them were on a paleo diet or paleo-close diet before this. The benefits described in the video are where strictly meat took them above and beyond (far beyond in the case of Jordan and his daughter) such a diet.

Not trying to argue with your initial premise here. I just think it's pretty fascinating and that there may be something very significant here that "some people just do better on that kind of diet" doesn't quite capture. To me it'd be kind of like saying, "Well, some people just have a body that will be positively affected by fasting."

I've taken up an interest in strictly meat diets a few times over the years and done some digging around, as well as used it for weight loss, and just as with fasting, the health improvements in people who go on them always seem stark across the board. Obviously just my opinion, but I suspect most people would do well on a diet like this. And that's very interesting considering the reactions you get from folks, even health experts, when you eat this way or even close to this way.

Post: #28

(07-05-2018 10:54 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I'd really like to see what his lipid panel and such looks like.......

That said, I'd love to see some bloods from the guys in here who have done it for more than 1 month and are reporting that they enjoy it.

Ya, I would like to see the counts of someone who has been doing this for 3-6 months. I may give it a go, I was pure Paleo for a year and Keto for the past couple months. This could be a natural next step.

I was just listening to a podcast where the guest suggested that the best results may actually be from rotating through these diets every few months to avoid plateau's and mental fatigue from maintaining such hard diet discipline.

Post: #29

Its easy and delicious.

But how many meals in a row can you do before you tap out???

Raw sashimi on the other hand... I can go all month hahaha

(07-05-2018 09:14 AM)ChefAllDay Wrote:  

(07-05-2018 08:39 AM)Meliorare93 Wrote:  I like my steak saignant, or even blue sometimes, but not sure if I'd enjoy it raw

It just needs to be very cold, cut very small, with a little egg yolk, salt, pepper and whatever you like (chili powder is good) and you have a basic tartar.

Very good, easy and delicious.

Post: #30

I tried a strictly carnivore diet for 2 months about seven years ago. I felt great and there were a lot of benefits, and the only reasons I stopped was the cost and I was worried about the long term health consequences of not eating vegetables. After watching the JP interview and doing a little reading, and since money is no longer an issue for me, I decided to try again a couple of days ago. I've been spending the day grazing on the leg of lamb I roasted last night and I've got beef bones bubbling away to make bone broth, and I'm a happy man.




There's something extremely satisfying about sitting down and eating a huge piece of meat, and not feeling obligated to eat the sad pieces of cauliflower on the side. The best thing about this diet is you can easily sustain it for a long time - you'll never get tired of eating meat every day the same way you grow tired of eating any other food every day.

As for the issue of how it affects your shits, this wasn't a problem with me when I tried this way of eating seven years ago. In fact I found that when my fat consumption was high enough, my shits came out clean as a whistle with nothing to wipe. I have a theory about this - humans are the only animals that end up with shit in our arseholes after we take a dump, and this could be an indication we're not eating food we've evolved to eat. If you've owned a dog, you'll know that the only time it will have a shitty arsehole is when it's either sick or if you're feeding it low quality food. The key is to eat enough fat though - when I started the experiment eating leaner cuts of meat, I was a little constipated. Problem solved after I ate more fat.

I mentioned before that one reason I stopped my experiment was that I was worried about not getting enough nutrients without vegetables. I'm not so worried about that now. I believe that nothing makes sense except in the context of evolution, and it seems obvious to me that we evolved to eat the food that was readily available. In this context I refuse to believe that we were eating 5+ servings of vegetables every day, simply because it wasn't available. We are unable to digest grass and leaves, and although we may have eaten small amounts of plant matter, the vegetables that were available bore such little resemblance to modern veges that they were hardly palatable to eat in large quantities. What was available in large quantities year round was meat, and that's what we thrived on for hundreds of thousands of years. Of course we supplemented this with berries, mushrooms and tubers (subject to seasonal availability), all of which are healthy. But they were never the basis of our nutritional consumption.

I think they key to eating this way however is eating organ meat, and I don't think that eating only muscle and fat is optimal. You need to get used to eating liver especially - if you look at the nutritional profile of liver it really is a superfood. If you're squeemish about eating liver (which I understand) that's something you just need to get over. The primitive hunter gatherers that have been studied (which give us a decent idea of how most pre-agricultural humans lived) often ate the liver raw as soon as they made a kill, as they believed (correctly) that doing so would replenish their hunting power. Adding liver to your diet (and other organ meats) will have nothing but benefits to your health. Some people try to "hide" liver inside their food. But I find the best way to eat it is to slice it into thin pieces and shallow fry it in butter or other fat for about 20-30 seconds each side, so that it's still a little pink in the middle. Don't overcook it! If you cook it properly it should melt in your mouth. It's definitely an acquired taste, but my experience is I began to crave it once I got over the "ick" factor.

Anyway, I'm not an expert. I only have the experience of my short experiment several years ago. But I'll report back as I progress.

Post: #31

Any tips on cooking the leg of lamb? Lots of lamb around here. I've done slow cooked shank, but not a whole leg.

Also if you read that 'Bear' link above he goes into organ meats. He doesn't eat many of them. He talks about liver or something having lots of carbs, something like that.

Post: #32

(07-06-2018 08:35 AM)Malone Wrote:  Any tips on cooking the leg of lamb? Lots of lamb around here. I've done slow cooked shank, but not a whole leg.

Also if you read that 'Bear' link above he goes into organ meats. He doesn't eat many of them. He talks about liver or something having lots of carbs, something like that.

Make some holes all over the meat and insert rosemary and a clove of garlic in each hole. Cover the whole leg with salt and pepper. Start the oven at 220C for the first 20 minutes then turn it down to 140C, then leave it for one hour per kilogram.

Post: #33

(07-05-2018 10:15 AM)Realbor Wrote:  His skin is truly amazing there, where the fuck did his wrinkles go?

He's already had a hair transplant, so he may have had something done to his skin. Either that or it's flattering lighting. I don't think a change of diet will eliminate wrinkles.

Post: #34

(07-06-2018 01:08 AM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  

(07-05-2018 09:07 PM)Arado Wrote:  

(07-05-2018 05:08 PM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  We won't get anything decent out of diet and mainstream science, because the crapheads want depopulation and folk dying of premature cancer and various diseases.

Plus it becomes complicated because healthy centennials were known sometimes to live off purely plants, others of meats and wines. The only thing certain is that you need lots of nutrients (often supplements unless you have super-nutrient dense foods) and you need to have a low caloric input/intermittent fasting also helping.

Anything else - is insanely diverse. Some centennial tribes were living healthy on a diet of mostly potatoes, others were having wine, local pork and fish and Sicilian bread.

That just makes this whole stuff impossibly confusing. Obviously different diets work for different people, but it's not easy to run a controlled diet experiment on your body - how much time should we give each combination, what about eating out/socializing, and there are outside factors that can affect us outside of diet.

Actually it's easy enough. Get 100.000 folk in each country with various diets, let them take an exact list of what they eat, test them regularly for years.

World governments spend plenty of crap on studies of why lesbians are fat (500.000$ on that) or on various feminist studies. It's not that difficult - then get control groups you pay for extreme diets. There are a ton of people willing to do those kind of things.

By now world data should have millions of entries giving us a better picture of what is healthy and isn't.

That is if mankind and our kind rulers were interested in that - which of course they are not - and neither are the interest groups in Big Pharma, Big Agro.

And they certainly don't want to pay pensions until 120. Life expectancy by the way has been dropping since the 1990s - heh: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23126814

Quote:Where are the missing 90-year-olds?

They are long dead - that's where they are.

That's a fair point. If the government was genuinely interested in solving this issue they could very well design a massive experiment. I'm just saying that as an individual it's hard to navigate the info out there given the amount of deliberate misinformation.

I'm hoping that big data and AI/machine learning could play a role in helping people figure out what diets are best for them.

Either way, as an individual, what's the best thing to try right now outside of the standard advice of cutting out sugar, processed food, and simple carbohydrates?

Post: #35

(07-06-2018 08:35 AM)Malone Wrote:  Any tips on cooking the leg of lamb? Lots of lamb around here. I've done slow cooked shank, but not a whole leg.

The only way I like leg of lamb is to use a spicy rosemary based marinade (for about 2 days) and then cook it on a charcoal grill. The gaminess goes away.

I don't cook it often because my wife is not a fan of stronger tasting meats. She does however use the leftovers to make a pretty good Thai curry.

Post: #36

@Horus. I like the "shit theory". There were times were my shit was clean, easy and fast. And many times were im sitting on the toilet with my rectum regurgitating shit. Could be an indicator of food + overall health.

Post: #37

Don't know how accurate the statements in the chart are but interested to hear comments. Some of it reads pretty biased, like the bit that claims it's "impossible" for humans to survive without animal protein.

Post: #38

(07-07-2018 06:01 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  Don't know how accurate the statements in the chart are but interested to hear comments. Some of it reads pretty biased, like the bit that claims it's "impossible" for humans to survive without animal protein.

That chart looks pretty accurate to me.

As for the claim that it's impossible for humans to survive without animal proteins, here is my take on it, (and not necessarily what the author had in mind). Of course it is possible to survive without animal protein, otherwise there would be a lot of dead vegans lying around. Vegans are able to obtain adequate amounts of protein through beans, nuts and to a lesser extent through vegetables. But this is only possible in a post agricultural world. Prior to the agricultural revolution it would have been extremely difficult if not impossible to gather and digest enough plant matter to fulfil our protein requirements, when you take into account availability of these plants and the capacity of our digestive systems. If we take the minimum protein requirements of a sedentary male as 56g per day, that's about 300g of beans. Then take into account that modern day beans are nothing like their pre-agricultural ancestors, and were much less palatable and nutritious. Then take into account the availability of these pre-agricultural beans - there would have been much less beans lying around than grass and leaves which other herbivourous animals are able to digest. Then take into account that they wouldn't have been available year round in most climates. Then take into account the time and effort it would take to prepare these beans to make them edible. Fuck that! We obtained all our protein from animals. (And then there is the question of where did we get enough fats before the production of vegetable oils)? So in that context, I believe that it's true humans cannot survive without animal protein.

I think a more interesting comparison would be between humans and other omnivorous primates such as gorillas or chimpanzees. Although both these animals are able to digest animal protein (chimps and gorillas eat insects and chimps actively hunt monkeys), they obtain a vast majority of their nutritional requirements from plant matter. Chimps and gorillas have a much larger digestive tract than humans, (just look at their protruding bellies), and also the enzymes necessary to break down the cellulose in leaves and stalks. They also need to eat huge amounts of plants every day - gorillas eat about 20kg of plants a day. Back in our evolutionary past, our very distant ancestors also had the ability to do this, but as our brains grew larger and our digestive tracts got smaller, we were no longer able to digest such food and became increasingly, and eventually almost solely reliant on animals for our nutrition.

The theory is that we first begain to eat animals as scavengers, when we became smart enough to use rocks to crack open bones and skulls to eat the marrow and brains of animals already eaten by carnivores. This is important as we were now able to access much more nutrient and calorie dense food than plants. As meat became more prevalent in our diet, our guts gradually grew smaller and our brains were able to grow larger, and this is explained by the "expensive tissue hypothesis."

The expensive tissue hypothesis states that pound for pound all animals have the same metabolic requirements. For example if a squirrel were the size of an elephant, the squirrel would have the same energy requirements of an elephant. But there is a difference in how the energy is allocated throughout their body - if a large amount of energy is allocated to one part of the body, there is always a trade-off where less energy will be allocated to other areas. In the case of humans, 25% of our energy intake is designated to power our brains since they are so large and complex. But the trade-off for us was that in order for our brains to grow and thus require more energy, our guts could no longer be allocated as much energy and therefore needed to become smaller and less complex. So in order for us to become smarter, we were no longer able to efficiently digest plant matter as other primates can do.

It's my belief, as I stated in a post above, that nothing makes sense except in the context of evolution, and if we want to know our optimal diet we only need to look at our history as a species. It only makes sense to me that the food we should eat now is the food our bodies evolved over hundreds of thousands of years to thrive on. Of course it's POSSIBLE to live on other foods - it is POSSIBLE for a cow to survive on a diet of corn and soy, but nobody would claim that a cow is healthier eating these foods than it would be if it were eating grass as it evolved to do. Likewise, I believe that a meat based diet is optimal for our health, and I don't believe any studies that say we should be eating large amounts of foods which weren't present in our evolutionary past.

Post: #39

What would an all meat diet cost every month at the grocery store?

Post: #40

(07-06-2018 08:26 AM)Horus Wrote:  snip



I think they key to eating this way however is eating organ meat, and I don't think that eating only muscle and fat is optimal. You need to get used to eating liver especially - if you look at the nutritional profile of liver it really is a superfood. If you're squeemish about eating liver (which I understand) that's something you just need to get over. The primitive hunter gatherers that have been studied (which give us a decent idea of how most pre-agricultural humans lived) often ate the liver raw as soon as they made a kill, as they believed (correctly) that doing so would replenish their hunting power. Adding liver to your diet (and other organ meats) will have nothing but benefits to your health. Some people try to "hide" liver inside their food. But I find the best way to eat it is to slice it into thin pieces and shallow fry it in butter or other fat for about 20-30 seconds each side, so that it's still a little pink in the middle. Don't overcook it! If you cook it properly it should melt in your mouth. It's definitely an acquired taste, but my experience is I began to crave it once I got over the "ick" factor.

Anyway, I'm not an expert. I only have the experience of my short experiment several years ago. But I'll report back as I progress.

That Bear dude claimed that the liver is generally to be avoided because it contains carbs and has what could be toxic levels of certain vitamins on an all meat diet. Don't know if it's true or not but I'm fine with eating blue steaks and sunny side up eggs. I might give this a shot.

(07-09-2018 01:57 PM)Checkmat Wrote:  What would an all meat diet cost every month at the grocery store?

I'm running the numbers currently and it'd be pretty fucking cheap on fatty hamburger, eggs, butter, cheese, coconut oil, and the occasional ribeye.

I don't much care for Reddit, but the guys on there say the easiest way to do it is to eat 1.5-3 lbs of (generally red) meat in a sitting, throw in some eggs, cheese, and spices when you get bored. Where I'm at, 3 lbs of fatty hamburger (the cheapest of all hamburger) is like $7. Fat is the most important nutrient, you want to get at least 60% of your daily intake from fat, if not 80%. I'd probably end up having a large morning coffee with a lot of heavy cream and then eating all my steaks with butter.

Post: #41

^ Regarding hamburger, I used to go to a local butcher for my ground beef and have him make it fattier than you can find it in the stores, which they're happy to do.

You could also ask them for some beef (or whatever kind of meat) fat - I reckon some will give it to you for free since no one else wants to eat it. I've long been a big proponent of eating a lot of animal fat, so I liked my burgers fattier even when I was eating carbs. I love eating a lot of nice big steaks (shout out to Veloce's how to cook a steak thread), but even ignoring the cost, ground beef patties offer a little variety.

One benefit of living in Southeast Asia is that a lot of the meats are super fatty already. They also eat a lot of organ meat. I eat liver but pretty sparingly - never been a huge fan anyhow.

Been eating nothing but meat, organs, eggs, coffee, spices, and a little cheese again the past few days, other than a small cheat last night because I allowed myself to get hungry, something a lot of the proponents warn against in early days. Waking up with more fierce erections than ever in the morning all of a sudden, which to me is always a good sign in a dietary or supplement change (i.e. this is what really sold me on the apple cider vinegar doses).

For the record, not planning to be strictly carnivore for the long haul. Only mostly. High high 90-percentile. Not because I think it's destructive to go all meat but simply because I think unless you're having obvious health problems it's a tad unnecessary to get all ideological about it, and so long being a bit of a foodie, I don't want to cut myself off from the pleasure of indulging from time to time without due cause.

So, I'll probably have a weekly cheat day or just allow myself to be flexible if I'm really craving something or if I am at a friend's house for dinner or something. I think the in the beginning it's important to go full bore, though, to let your body adapt.

Here's an impressive photo recently posted by a reader a couple days ago at MeatHeals.com:

   

Post: #42

(07-09-2018 08:00 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  That Bear dude claimed that the liver is generally to be avoided because it contains carbs and has what could be toxic levels of certain vitamins on an all meat diet. Don't know if it's true or not but I'm fine with eating blue steaks and sunny side up eggs. I might give this a shot.

100g of beef liver contains about 4g of carbs. Not enough to worry about.

The common concern with eating liver is the risk of hypervitamintosis A, the overconsumption of vitamin A. Vitamin A is toxic at at one time dose of 500,000IU, or (at it's lowest threshold) a daily consumption of 25,000IU over several months. 100g of liver contains about 19,000IU, so you'll never be at risk eating a portion of liver several times a week.

Post: #43

(07-09-2018 10:52 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  For the record, not planning to be strictly carnivore for the long haul. Only mostly. High high 90-percentile. Not because I think it's destructive to go all meat but simply because I think unless you're having obvious health problems it's a tad unnecessary to get all ideological about it, and so long being a bit of a foodie, I don't want to cut myself off from the pleasure of indulging from time to time without due cause.

Absolutely, this is not something to be ideologically rigid with. Jordan Peterson said that he never cheats, but in his case where he claims the diet has cured his crippling depression this makes sense. But in the absence of any health concerns, you'd be needlessly depriving yourself of a world of pleasure and enjoyment by being overly inflexible with this. I'm about to go traveling for a month, and I'll be eating anything I feel like eating, because exploring and sharing new foods is one of the greatest joys in life.

Post: #44

Going into monk mode to trim fat off, i found this easy to follow. For those of you who are on this too, do you measure out how much meat you eat in a day?

General concensus is "eat till im full" but there are days where youre more hungry than others due to outputs.

Post: #45

I'm in - day 3 now and feeling great, energy levels fine. I was on a keto diet immediately before this so it wasn't a big transition for me. I'll see how it goes for 30 days.

Post: #46

(07-10-2018 02:53 AM)DrugAdvisor Wrote:  Going into monk mode to trim fat off, i found this easy to follow. For those of you who are on this too, do you measure out how much meat you eat in a day?

General concensus is "eat till im full" but there are days where youre more hungry than others due to outputs.

Why would you trim off the fat? That's the best part. You'll never feel satiated without enough fat.

I think this is a matter of trying it out to see how it works for you. You won't find many people here who have tried this long-term - I only did it for two months several years ago - so nobody is qualified to give definitive advice. Treat it as an experiment and report back your findings!

"Eat till you're full" would be a good starting point. My experience is that it's impossible to overeat fat and protein - there comes a point , even if your belly isn't full, where your brain tells you it's enough, you're statisfied, and you simply don't feel like eating any more. (Compare that to eating pizza for example - you can completely stuff yourself to bursting point, but it's always possible to eat a little more).

The only possibility where it may be possible to overeat could be with ground beef. Yesterday I bought 1kg of ground beef and consumed it throughout the day as hamburger patties. But when I looked at the nutrition stats I was surprised that it came to 3320 calories (140g of protein and 300g of fat). That's too much for one day. Compare that to 1kg of sirloin steak which comes to 2440 calories (270g of protein and 140g of fat). I think it would be impossible to eat that much sirloin in one day, but overeating the ground beef was very easy for me. My theory is - (and take this with a grain of salt because even I'm not convinced) - that ground beef is made by "processing" cheaper cuts of meat which are usually difficult to consume in large quantities into something which is as easy to consume as a steak. Kind of like how it's easy to consume 2000 calories of processed wheat, but impossible to consume 2000 calories of unprocessed wheat. (I know that's a vastly exaggerated comparison, but you get the idea). When I get back into this (after I get back from holiday) I will take the approach of eating a variety of meat and eating until I'm satisfied. Perhaps one day would be a steak, some hamburger patties, chicken drumsticks, eggs and some offal.

Post: #47

(07-10-2018 04:04 AM)Horus Wrote:  Why would you trim off the fat? That's the best part. You'll never feel satiated without enough fat.

It's clear he's talking about his body.

Quote:I think this is a matter of trying it out to see how it works for you. You won't find many people here who have tried this long-term - I only did it for two months several years ago - so nobody is qualified to give definitive advice. Treat it as an experiment and report back your findings!

Except for the guy (Bear) I posted above who's been doing it 47 years and the quite a few people in the Facebook groups (also posted above on http://justmeat.co/) that have been in 8-10 years.

Everyone is quite firm that calories are completely unimportant on this. No measurements needed. Eat fat first, then the lean until you're done.

Post: #48

(07-09-2018 10:52 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  Here's an impressive photo recently posted by a reader a couple days ago at MeatHeals.com:

More like "Jim has lost over 70 pounds, regained fitness, and is in the best shape of his life thanks to moving his fat ass to the gym and lifting weights".

(07-10-2018 04:04 AM)Horus Wrote:  My theory is - (and take this with a grain of salt because even I'm not convinced) - that ground beef is made by "processing" cheaper cuts of meat which are usually difficult to consume in large quantities into something which is as easy to consume as a steak.

That is not a theory at all, this is one of the reasons why ground meat and sausages were invented in the first place. Every part of an animal that's edible should be used, nothing thrown away. Let's just say that for some of those parts that requires a little tweak in the way they're presented.

Post: #49

(07-10-2018 04:26 AM)Malone Wrote:  

(07-10-2018 04:04 AM)Horus Wrote:  Why would you trim off the fat? That's the best part. You'll never feel satiated without enough fat.

It's clear he's talking about his body.

Ah I get it - I'm a retard.

(07-10-2018 04:47 AM)Belgrano Wrote:  

(07-10-2018 04:04 AM)Horus Wrote:  My theory is - (and take this with a grain of salt because even I'm not convinced) - that ground beef is made by "processing" cheaper cuts of meat which are usually difficult to consume in large quantities into something which is as easy to consume as a steak.

That is not a theory at all, this is one of the reasons why ground meat and sausages were invented in the first place. Every part of an animal that's edible should be used, nothing thrown away. Let's just say that for some of those parts that requires a little tweak in the way they're presented.

I'm just thinking out of my ass. What I meant was that by processing otherwise difficult to consume meat, it may be possible to overeat if you're only eating ground beef, as I've seen some people on those websites doing. I was surprised how easy it was to eat that many calories of ground beef, whereas it would be impossible for me to eat that many calories of other cuts of meat, and I don't believe that for a smaller guy like myself I wouldn't gain weight if I were eating 3.5K calories per day. I'm just putting it forward as a possible exception to the otherwise excellent advice of eating protein and fat until you're full.

Post: #50

(07-10-2018 04:47 AM)Belgrano Wrote:  

(07-09-2018 10:52 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  Here's an impressive photo recently posted by a reader a couple days ago at MeatHeals.com:

More like "Jim has lost over 70 pounds, regained fitness, and is in the best shape of his life thanks to moving his fat ass to the gym and lifting weights".

Nah.

Of course he lifted as well...

But guys don't go from that fat to that lean without drastically improving their diet.

BTW, according to his testimonial, he did that in just over 7 months. Who knows if the before pic was taken exactly in January, but 70 pounds is nothing to sneeze at.