Post: #26

Yeah of course, lots of people are taking this as a career. And surely they are doing great.

Post: #27

(06-26-2018 01:50 PM)Lampwick Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 09:32 AM)kuqezi Wrote:  

(06-25-2018 11:31 PM)churros Wrote:  What kind of meaningless world are we living in, where the only feasible job is to code bullshit apps for teenage girls.

Not meant as a dig at cs guys, but the state of the industry in general.

Respectfully disagree.
You probably have very limited knowledge of what Computer Science or Engineering is.
You're just talking about one branch of the software engineering side of it, meaning the coding of apps.
There's so much more out there like:

Backend systems (The OS, the kernel)
Data (NoSQL, Object Oriented DBs, BigData, etc...)
Business Intelligence (things like Oracle CRMs, Tableu, etc)
Networking (neural networks, etc...)
AI
Robotics
Research...

and I barely made a scratch into the vast world of Engineering. Be a bit more open minded or research some more.
Cheers!

It's telling that you mainly focus on job function and don't address the larger point that the "missions" of many of today's companies are dubious. The big money right now is in FAANG:

Facebook (smartphone dopamine hits)
Apple (smartphone dopamine hits)
Amazon (putting Mom and Pop out of business, monopolizing the world)
Netflix (mindless entertainment)
Google (toll bridge rent seeking)

All of these companies have backend, data, BI, etc., but that doesn't speak to their purpose.

I work on the business side, but I had an engineer friend that wanted me to join him at one of the "chum box" advertising companies (warning, disgusting images, but very good article: https://www.theawl.com/2015/06/a-complet...rnet-chum/).

From his perspective, he gets to work on really cool high-traffic, large scale systems all day long, and he gets paid very well. Meanwhile, they are polluting the Internet with the worst garbage imaginable.

Many times, engineers have the luxury of being divorced from the ugly realities of what actually generates their paycheck.

Of course I'm being overly reductive and pessimistic, but it's a fair point that working for many of the most successful technology companies is not as inspiring as working for, I dunno, U.S. Steel.

I see your point and the bold part is the big truth here.
If you're good at what you do you can play your own game and make your job interesting and be successful, also never forget that any of the listings I wrote above will give you a solid benchmark to start your own company should you have a cool idea.

To my knowledge and from what I see in the industry the Apps are usually the flashy part and they are not done by the top talent people. Top talent people are as you say in the background.
There's a huge difference between what you see, facebook, instagram etc...and the real core that makes them all run and function.

As an advice to someone considering CS, don't focus on the surface, go deep and learn the core and not just UI design or some ugly Ajax or JS or CSS.
Cheers!

Post: #28

The way we're going, IT in some shape or form is fast becoming the ONLY viable white-collar career left, as it will be the last field destroyed by automation.

I think people have a Money For Nothin' attitude about programming because you're just sitting around banging on a keyboard for high wages. The pay is good but stress levels are high and work-life balance is poor. A lot of self-destructive behaviors (smoking, drinking, junkfood) gets used to compensate for this, only making things worse. It's a good job for recent college grads who are happy to live at work, especially with a well-funded company that throws out the foosball tables and free lunches, but those dot com boom style companies are the exception rather than the norm these days. The majority are bland cubicle wastelands like out of Office Space.

Speaking for myself, I find the analytical left-brained nature of the work to be unfulfilling. Dealing with bits and bytes all the time makes me feel like a human computer which is sort of soul-crushing if I have no creative outlet.

I've employed soft-skills (i.e. being agreeable) to build loyalty with coworkers and open doors here and there whereas I've seen other more primadonna or autistic types limited by their social handicaps. There are, however, many pragmatic companies that will bring in people purely as cogs in the wheel who don't care whether they're team players or not.

Of course, tooting your own horn and shmoozing the right way leads to promotions. If you don't get promoted you'll be like me, well paid but an aging front-line coder who is always bumping up against burnout and always silently armchair quarterbacking management decisions.

Post: #29

I have to disagree with kuqezi about going deep on the basis of job opportunities: The real deep stuff isn't a white collar factory job. That is stuff of brilliance that most people in tech don't have. Most of the jobs in tech are one layer up from the infrastructure stuff that requires CS knowledge of that degree.

If you can't work with front end stuff these days, you are basically cutting off > 50% of the job opportunities.

Agree with questor70, I was in the cubicle farm myself. Tech is an up or out job unless you are one the rare superstars that can perform. If you are over 30, I would suggest a plan to move laterally. Myself I'm going the Sales Engineer route.

Post: #30

(06-28-2018 04:24 PM)ts58 Wrote:  I have to disagree with kuqezi about going deep on the basis of job opportunities: The real deep stuff isn't a white collar factory job. That is stuff of brilliance that most people in tech don't have. Most of the jobs in tech are one layer up from the infrastructure stuff that requires CS knowledge of that degree.

If you can't work with front end stuff these days, you are basically cutting off > 50% of the job opportunities.

Agree with questor70, I was in the cubicle farm myself. Tech is an up or out job unless you are one the rare superstars that can perform. If you are over 30, I would suggest a plan to move laterally. Myself I'm going the Sales Engineer route.

You are so wrong you have no idea!
Talent is like 20% and hard work is the 80%
I am very sorry to say this but since you're in the Sales you are out of touch with what you say.

"Stuff of brilliance"...what is this? Everyone that wants to go deep in engineering is a bit brilliant, otherwise you're not cut for it!

Guys, you need to understand the huge difference between IT and Engineering.
IT is a joke, is boring, is what ts58 talks about (I think ts58 is also young, like in college still). Engineering is what makes things happen.

Cheers!

Post: #31

The vast majority of of the work that happens in IT is akin to bricklaying. It does not require the pedigree that the job listings suggest it does. I've also been in plenty of environments with people who do have pedigrees who get lost in mental-masturbation at the whiteboard and never actually get shit done. This is because engineers think in terms of theory and theoretical perfection whereas business is about time-to-market and cost-benefit analysis. Nobody who visits a website sees or gives a crap about the code behind it. As long as it works, it satisfies the business objectives.

Also, as the industry ages, more and more IT is less like bricklaying and more like renovation. More often than not you're tasked with cleaning up the mess the earlier regime left behind or modernizing something that has been allowed to run on autopilot well past its use-by date.

But the really juicy work, doing bleeding edge and blue-sky stuff, most don't get those opportunities. It was more commonplace in the old days because everything was so new but not now.

Post: #32

(06-29-2018 01:35 PM)questor70 Wrote:  The vast majority of of the work that happens in IT is akin to bricklaying. It does not require the pedigree that the job listings suggest it does. I've also been in plenty of environments with people who do have pedigrees who get lost in mental-masturbation at the whiteboard and never actually get shit done. This is because engineers think in terms of theory and theoretical perfection whereas business is about time-to-market and cost-benefit analysis. Nobody who visits a website sees or gives a crap about the code behind it. As long as it works, it satisfies the business objectives.

Also, as the industry ages, more and more IT is less like bricklaying and more like renovation. More often than not you're tasked with cleaning up the mess the earlier regime left behind or modernizing something that has been allowed to run on autopilot well past its use-by date.

But the really juicy work, doing bleeding edge and blue-sky stuff, most don't get those opportunities. It was more commonplace in the old days because everything was so new but not now.

With all due respect, you're not understanding my point.
All what you describe are entry level jobs or ugly UI design.

Regarding the business mindset versus engineering, I agree they are two different things but please don't dumb it down a company/product to a website only.

This is what I meant that IT and Engineering are two different things.
When you work on things like:

- The kernel
- Security systems (TLS, encryption, "zero-trust" approach, etc...)
- Horizontally scaling systems
- Distributed databases (even object oriented ones)
- BigData

All those have nothing to do with IT or a simple website. These are probably topics in the industry that you need to be at least a senior software engineer or maybe prinicipal or architect and maybe not directly out of school but you can get there.

Happy to delve in deeper but I don't want to end up in rabbit holes.

Cheers!

Post: #33

(06-29-2018 01:35 PM)questor70 Wrote:  But the really juicy work, doing bleeding edge and blue-sky stuff, most don't get those opportunities. It was more commonplace in the old days because everything was so new but not now.

If you are qualified enough and have put on the hard work this is very reachable.

Post: #34

I think so.

One thing I'd like to mention is that, if OP is going to take a CS degree in order to be a software developer (or something similar), you might spend your free time (outside of school) in coding, since CS tends to be more about theories.

Here is link to the video where an ex-Google software developer talks about his experience at a CS course at a college, saying that professors (or teachers) won't tell you how to code
(the relevant part starts from 5:00)

(06-29-2018 11:16 AM)kuqezi Wrote:  Guys, you need to understand the huge difference between IT and Engineering.
IT is a joke, is boring, is what ts58 talks about (I think ts58 is also young, like in college still). Engineering is what makes things happen.

Having an IT degree (not CS), I wouldn't go so far as to say that IT is a joke.

CS is, as mentioned above, usually about theorises (how computers work and how they are created).
IT is more about how to make use of computers (i.e. practices).

To be great as a software developer, both theoretical knowledge and practical skills are essential.

kuqezi Wrote:As an advice to someone considering CS, don't focus on the surface, go deep and learn the core and not just UI design or some ugly Ajax or JS or CSS.

Agreed.
Learning only abstracted technologies wouldn't give you a big paycheck.

Post: #35

(06-30-2018 12:53 AM)YMD Wrote:  I think so.

One thing I'd like to mention is that, if OP is going to take a CS degree in order to be a software developer (or something similar), you might spend your free time (outside of school) in coding, since CS tends to be more about theories.

Here is link to the video where an ex-Google software developer talks about his experience at a CS course at a college, saying that professors (or teachers) won't tell you how to code
(the relevant part starts from 5:00)

(06-29-2018 11:16 AM)kuqezi Wrote:  Guys, you need to understand the huge difference between IT and Engineering.
IT is a joke, is boring, is what ts58 talks about (I think ts58 is also young, like in college still). Engineering is what makes things happen.

Having an IT degree (not CS), I wouldn't go so far as to say that IT is a joke.

CS is, as mentioned above, usually about theorises (how computers work and how they are created).
IT is more about how to make use of computers (i.e. practices).

To be great as a software developer, both theoretical knowledge and practical skills are essential.

kuqezi Wrote:As an advice to someone considering CS, don't focus on the surface, go deep and learn the core and not just UI design or some ugly Ajax or JS or CSS.

Agreed.
Learning only abstracted technologies wouldn't give you a big paycheck.

I don't think this is accurate.

I've taken a lot of CS courses in college, and they all had practical components to them - coding assignments are almost a guaranteed, and sometimes there's a lab component as well.

One of my professor was amazing at teaching how to code, and recruiters would come to him specifically to get his best students.

Also, that former Googler's video is a bit misleading - the guy is selling his services - from the video description:

Quote:For more tech interview tips & tricks, check out TechLead: Season 1 Complete HD available for purchase.

I would advice people who don't have a CS background to avoid giving advice in this topic.

P.S. regarding

Quote:One thing I'd like to mention is that, if OP is going to take a CS degree in order to be a software developer (or something similar), you might spend your free time (outside of school) in coding, since CS tends to be more about theories.

Most people who take CS courses or major in them don't have much free time. Assignments take up an enormous amount of time. I remember spending quite a few all-nighters getting my code to work.

Post: #36

(06-29-2018 11:16 AM)kuqezi Wrote:  You are so wrong you have no idea!
Talent is like 20% and hard work is the 80%
I am very sorry to say this but since you're in the Sales you are out of touch with what you say.

"Stuff of brilliance"...what is this? Everyone that wants to go deep in engineering is a bit brilliant, otherwise you're not cut for it!

Guys, you need to understand the huge difference between IT and Engineering.
IT is a joke, is boring, is what ts58 talks about (I think ts58 is also young, like in college still). Engineering is what makes things happen.

Cheers!

kuqezi, you ignore the fact that most of the jobs are in "IT/software dev" vs Engineering. This is a fact. I never said Engineering isn't on the bleeding edge.

You also have this idea that Engineering is cooler and dudes should get more respect who are in the field. I and most others don't care about how hard you worked or how smart you are. This is RVF in case you haven't realized. It's what is your work/life balance and are you getting laid. Not to show off your cool new algo.

I would suggest dropping the attitude and check out what people in Javascript land are doing. Just as amazing as someone doing kernel stuff.

To everyone else: I stand by my point there vast majority of jobs are in dev, not Engineering.

Post: #37

(06-30-2018 10:35 AM)ts58 Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 11:16 AM)kuqezi Wrote:  You are so wrong you have no idea!
Talent is like 20% and hard work is the 80%
I am very sorry to say this but since you're in the Sales you are out of touch with what you say.

"Stuff of brilliance"...what is this? Everyone that wants to go deep in engineering is a bit brilliant, otherwise you're not cut for it!

Guys, you need to understand the huge difference between IT and Engineering.
IT is a joke, is boring, is what ts58 talks about (I think ts58 is also young, like in college still). Engineering is what makes things happen.

Cheers!

kuqezi, you ignore the fact that most of the jobs are in "IT/software dev" vs Engineering. This is a fact. I never said Engineering isn't on the bleeding edge.

You also have this idea that Engineering is cooler and dudes should get more respect who are in the field. I and most others don't care about how hard you worked or how smart you are. This is RVF in case you haven't realized. It's what is your work/life balance and are you getting laid. Not to show off your cool new algo.

I would suggest dropping the attitude and check out what people in Javascript land are doing. Just as amazing as someone doing kernel stuff.

To everyone else: I stand by my point there vast majority of jobs are in dev, not Engineering.

I would suggest you learn how to read.

This thread is about Computer Science (Engineering), not IT.

Who cares that there are more jobs in IT, that is irrelevant to the topic at hand and the OP, who asked if getting a degree in Computer Science was a good idea or not.

That said, I highly encourage anyone who is interested in IT-related topics to create an IT-specific thread.

Post: #38

(06-26-2018 01:50 PM)Lampwick Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 09:32 AM)kuqezi Wrote:  

(06-25-2018 11:31 PM)churros Wrote:  What kind of meaningless world are we living in, where the only feasible job is to code bullshit apps for teenage girls.

Not meant as a dig at cs guys, but the state of the industry in general.

Respectfully disagree.
You probably have very limited knowledge of what Computer Science or Engineering is.
You're just talking about one branch of the software engineering side of it, meaning the coding of apps.
There's so much more out there like:

Backend systems (The OS, the kernel)
Data (NoSQL, Object Oriented DBs, BigData, etc...)
Business Intelligence (things like Oracle CRMs, Tableu, etc)
Networking (neural networks, etc...)
AI
Robotics
Research...

and I barely made a scratch into the vast world of Engineering. Be a bit more open minded or research some more.
Cheers!

It's telling that you mainly focus on job function and don't address the larger point that the "missions" of many of today's companies are dubious. The big money right now is in FAANG:

Facebook (smartphone dopamine hits)
Apple (smartphone dopamine hits)
Amazon (putting Mom and Pop out of business, monopolizing the world)
Netflix (mindless entertainment)
Google (toll bridge rent seeking)

All of these companies have backend, data, BI, etc., but that doesn't speak to their purpose.

I work on the business side, but I had an engineer friend that wanted me to join him at one of the "chum box" advertising companies (warning, disgusting images, but very good article: https://www.theawl.com/2015/06/a-complet...rnet-chum/).

From his perspective, he gets to work on really cool high-traffic, large scale systems all day long, and he gets paid very well. Meanwhile, they are polluting the Internet with the worst garbage imaginable.

Many times, engineers have the luxury of being divorced from the ugly realities of what actually generates their paycheck.

Of course I'm being overly reductive and pessimistic, but it's a fair point that working for many of the most successful technology companies is not as inspiring as working for, I dunno, U.S. Steel.

So much salt.

Technology in general is a double-edged sword. Every technology has put people out of business, and arguably made things worse in one way or another.

Cars destroyed tons of buggy companies. Also wrecked public transportation in cities (in the US) and lead to sprawl.

U.S. Steel is inspiring? Please, many material science-based companies are highly devastating to the environment. Speaking of which,

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local...story.html

Quote:U.S. Steel later reported that 346 pounds of chromium had poured out of a rusted pipe into the waterway, including 298 pounds of hexavalent chromium. A month later the company filed another report that estimated substantially more hexavalent chromium ended up in the waterway — 920 pounds — but it dismissed the finding as an "absurd result" from a single water sample.

Chromium is a carcinogen. But yeah, sure polluting the actual environment is much more inspiring than polluting the internet...

And that's not the only heavy polluting U.S. Steel is doing:

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-08-11/r...nnsylvania

Quote:But while air quality has improved since Ford’s childhood, he and other members of this community who have long benefited from the good jobs are starting to wonder if the personal costs of the mill are too high.

“In my own family, my dad died of cancer of the trachea,” Ford says. “I had a daughter that died at the age of 25 with scleroderma. My son passed away this past October from prostate cancer.”

Other residents recite similar lists of family members who are sick or have died of cancers and other diseases, and Ford says they’re starting to look at the coke plant with new eyes.
“It’s an awareness now that’s just sparked in us. And we’re ready to listen now and try to do something about it because it’s so apparent to us,” he explains.

Clairton Coke Works violated its air permit 6,700 times between 2012 and 2015. The Allegheny County Health Department reached a new consent decree with US Steel to reduce pollution last year, yet the Mon Valley still does not meet federal air-quality standards for sulfur dioxide and fine particulate matter. Those pollutants can cause lung problems and other health issues.

I'm seeing too much salt and negativity in this thread by guys without any real skin in the game in Computer Science. This isn't the "Computer Science is shit" or "Silicon Valley is evil" thread - unless you have actual experience and can provide useful feedback, I'd suggest people take their hate to the haters' lounge or create their own thread. Keep it relevant, which is whether Computer Science is a good major for a career, and relevant information like how to succeed, what classes to take, interview prep, etc.

Post: #39

If someone is working for Facebook, then he is essentially making "bullshit apps for teenage girls", no matter how much it is dressed up, or what his specific job function is. I am echoing a general malaise about our economy moving from one based on manufacturing to one based on services (and often rent seeking). US Steel is simply a symbol of this, and one Trump himself selected.

It is very easy to get lost in job function and not look at the bigger picture. Finding meaning in your work is an important part of a "good career", so I don't think this is entirely off-topic, but point taken.

Post: #40

(06-30-2018 06:31 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  I would suggest you learn how to read.

This thread is about Computer Science (Engineering), not IT.

Who cares that there are more jobs in IT, that is irrelevant to the topic at hand and the OP, who asked if getting a degree in Computer Science was a good idea or not.

That said, I highly encourage anyone who is interested in IT-related topics to create an IT-specific thread.

A CS degree is never a bad idea, I never said it was. I am simply pointing out a fact about the current job market for CS vs dev, which is relevant. A fact as simple as water is wet.

If you couldn't get that I would suggest you need reading comprehension.

I also detect a sense of butthurt over a differing opinion like kuqezi. Don't let your post and rep count go to your head. Not all single digit posters are newbs in life.

Post: #41

Absolutely.

These are the jobs/careers:

1) Development (software, app, web, application)
2) Cyber security
3) Networking
4) Multimedia
5) System development
6) Artificial intelligence
7) Systems admin
8) Databases (SQL)
9) IT support
10) Academia
11) IT infrastructure
12) Data science
13) Machine learning
14) VR development
15) Software engineering

Post: #42

(06-30-2018 11:26 PM)ts58 Wrote:  

(06-30-2018 06:31 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  I would suggest you learn how to read.

This thread is about Computer Science (Engineering), not IT.

Who cares that there are more jobs in IT, that is irrelevant to the topic at hand and the OP, who asked if getting a degree in Computer Science was a good idea or not.

That said, I highly encourage anyone who is interested in IT-related topics to create an IT-specific thread.

A CS degree is never a bad idea, I never said it was. I am simply pointing out a fact about the current job market for CS vs dev, which is relevant. A fact as simple as water is wet.

If you couldn't get that I would suggest you need reading comprehension.

I also detect a sense of butthurt over a differing opinion like kuqezi. Don't let your post and rep count go to your head. Not all single digit posters are newbs in life.

I hereby designate you noob for life. Enjoy.

Post: #43

(07-01-2018 10:11 AM)Cobra Wrote:  I hereby designate you noob for life. Enjoy.

Do you have anything relevant to add to the thread? I'm staying on topic with my viewpoint.

If not, I hereby designate you Genghis Khan's dick rider for life. Enjoy.

Post: #44

Thanks to Cobra and Genghis! Valuable thoughts! Clearly you guys know what you're talking about

@ts58: Dude, calm down, it's so obvious you are new to a lot of things and have no idea what you're talking about. I am replying to a thread and not flashing my new algorithm and neither derailing the thread by showing off my latest 3some. Have a life and listen and learn on topics you apparently need a lot of work! I mean this in a friendly way!

Cheers!

Post: #45

(06-30-2018 10:35 AM)ts58 Wrote:  To everyone else: I stand by my point there vast majority of jobs are in dev, not Engineering.

More to the point, I really do not get the attempt to separate the term IT from engineering. It's nothing but a semantic argument. I use the term IT to refer to any and all data-related work, everything from desktop support all the way up to the elites who write kernels and drivers in assembly.

I do not have a comp-sci degree and I'm making over six figures. Has the lack of a degree been an impediment? Somewhat, but the fact is that the majority of the kind of work done in programming as a whole is mostly simple flowchart style logic and not hand-rolled algorithims or heavy math/physics. This is because we have what, 60+ years of foundational computing behind us and most of the hard stuff has been done already and is now bundled up in preexisting libraries. This is even true in games where, for instance, Unity is driven by (horror of horrors, C# instead of C++). No more pointers. No more manual memory allocation/deallocation.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for those at the top of the food-chain. They can do things most of us can't, but IT work (as I define it) is now a VERY broad field and those considering it should not feel that they shouldn't bother if they didn't get a perfect SAT score in math and can't think in binary.

Post: #46

^ This.

CS is a great foundation, but you don't need a CS degree to get a decent paying job. It doesn't hurt to get one, my experience however is any actual code you have produced will outweigh the degree immensely. Speaking from a dev/database standpoint.

kuqezi, thanks. And likewise reiterating, you should check out some stuff coming out of the web scene and how it is integrating with AI/ML.

Post: #47

(07-02-2018 06:45 AM)ts58 Wrote:  

(07-01-2018 10:11 AM)Cobra Wrote:  I hereby designate you noob for life. Enjoy.

Do you have anything relevant to add to the thread? I'm staying on topic with my viewpoint.

If not, I hereby designate you Genghis Khan's dick rider for life. Enjoy.

Ooh autistic screeching!

Anyone know why IT threads attract autists?

Post: #48

(07-02-2018 10:13 AM)questor70 Wrote:  

(06-30-2018 10:35 AM)ts58 Wrote:  To everyone else: I stand by my point there vast majority of jobs are in dev, not Engineering.

More to the point, I really do not get the attempt to separate the term IT from engineering. It's nothing but a semantic argument. I use the term IT to refer to any and all data-related work, everything from desktop support all the way up to the elites who write kernels and drivers in assembly.

I do not have a comp-sci degree and I'm making over six figures. Has the lack of a degree been an impediment? Somewhat, but the fact is that the majority of the kind of work done in programming as a whole is mostly simple flowchart style logic and not hand-rolled algorithims or heavy math/physics. This is because we have what, 60+ years of foundational computing behind us and most of the hard stuff has been done already and is now bundled up in preexisting libraries. This is even true in games where, for instance, Unity is driven by (horror of horrors, C# instead of C++). No more pointers. No more manual memory allocation/deallocation.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for those at the top of the food-chain. They can do things most of us can't, but IT work (as I define it) is now a VERY broad field and those considering it should not feel that they shouldn't bother if they didn't get a perfect SAT score in math and can't think in binary.

One of my bachelors degree was in Business Systems/Information Systems where I learned about database design, systems analysts and a little coding (Cobol of all things). I graduated around the dot com boom and ended up in a development role where I mainly coded. I worked into a team lead role making a shit ton of money.

After that I went into my own business building my own software and selling it.

You definitely don't need a computer science degree. You never stop learning when it comes to software. Getting a degree is only the beginning. There is a lot of agism in software. You may end up getting too old for some companies and find yourself doing more in-house work for large corps.

Post: #49

(07-02-2018 06:45 AM)ts58 Wrote:  Do you have anything relevant to add to the thread? I'm staying on topic with my viewpoint.

If not, I hereby designate you Genghis Khan's dick rider for life. Enjoy.

We have a small group who like to screw up threads with nonsense instead of discussing the topic.

Post: #50

(07-02-2018 11:28 AM)Cobra Wrote:  Anyone know why IT threads attract autists?

Because computers are the perfect companion for someone without social skills. You have total control over it and it functions in a 100% logical and predictable fashion. Even when you're dealing with the bug, it's like solving a crossword-puzzle. As mysterious as it may be, all bugs are ultimately deterministic. Managing human behavior (especially female behavior) is far more messy, like herding cats.