Post: #26

OP If you feel bad about cheating you're getting too close. If I start feeling bad about seeing other girls when I'm seeing another regularly it's usually an indicator that I'm beginning to beta backslide on the primary girl.

Of course if you're a monogamous guy I guess it would be a different case. Personally I don't emotionally invest in women very often. Not to say I'm opposed to that lifestyle. Maybe one day. I'm more focused on work than relationships.

While it's a slower crawl to get girls on rotation like this it is much easier to just tell the girl you're not a one girl guy. Then you'll never have to feel any guilt. Of course you're going to obviously lose a lot of girls doing this but it creates a lot less stress of having to live double, triple or even quadruple lives and keep up with your own lies.

If you establish this at the beginning even if she does not believe you that's on her not you. So if anything comes back to bite you in the ass you can say I told you from the beginning. Always keep your side of the street clean and you'll never have anything to worry about.

There are many girls out there that don't actually mind guys that have a few girlfriends. But you're going to have to put up serious numbers to find them.

Post: #27

Beyond cheating... does anyone else feel bad for banging a woman and then dumping her like yesterdays trash?

Post: #28

(05-14-2018 10:07 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  Beyond cheating... does anyone else feel bad for banging a woman and then dumping her like yesterdays trash?

Wouldn't that depend on the tactics you used to get the fuck in the first place?

Easy Sluts - No, doubt she'll feel guilty either

Girl you dated a few times and took home - Maybe/Depends of the Girl

Traditional or Religious girl you bullshitted your way into bed with - Yes

Post: #29

(05-13-2018 04:51 PM)EndsExpect Wrote:  

(05-13-2018 04:40 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  This is a big divide here on ROK.
I for one don't understand how any man can look in the mirror and be proud of who he is if he is a liar, a cheat and doesn't uphold the highest moral values in himself.

I understand that atheists can have morals, but.... why? What's the point? Are you just looking for moral exculpation?

Because its an intelligent and rational behavior that humans evolved so we can succeed as a species, and have nice things.

Society runs on a social and ethical contract. With empathy comes the knowledge that being lied to, stolen from, raped, killed or being beaten up is not nice, and therefore not nice to do that to someone else.

If we all abstain from doing bad things to each other, we all collectively have a better life.

I don't want to derail this thread (meet me in the does god exist thread) but humans inventing religions is emergent behavior AFTER ethics developed, not the other way around.

Doing the right thing makes you feel good for a reason. Guilt is there to warn you that bad things happen when you make bad choices.

There's nowhere to hide when you look in the mirror. You are the only person that can see and remember everything you have done in your life. All the lies, the cheating, the stealing and also all the good things as well.

The man in the mirror is the only opinion that matters.

I for one wouldn't compromise that for a fold of skin and a few minutes pleasure...

Post: #30

Here's my take. You are in your Prime and spend your masculine energy on being loyal to a girlfriend with whom you're not planning to have children or settle down with. Say the mini-LTR ends in a year. She goes out on the weekend with her friends or re-downloads tinder and the deal's sealed. If you didn't practice game or had some girls here and there you're back to square one. At least I speak for the newbies including me. If you are a master of game, go ahead and stay true to your chick, otherwise gain experience and get adventures!

Post: #31

I am on team no guilt.

I ruined plenty of good sex and opportunities due to being too guilt-ridden.

But with everything in life - balance is the key. And if you are on a highly spiritual/religious bent then cheating is not helpful.

Post: #32

This all confuses me...

If you first start hanging out with a girl, you don't need to tell her where you are every night of the week. If you met her on Bumble / Tinder, chances are you're not the only guy she's hanging out with. When we're casual, I don't ask a lot of questions. I don't really care, either -- I have too much other shit going on to wonder how many other guys she's seeing. I'm also not going to overly invest emotionally at the outset of a relationship. Always assume she's seeing other people until she's at your place every weekend, usually without you even asking. The older I get, the less I think about it.

Many women will tolerate "open relationships", friends with benefits, or polyamory (until they find a real, actual boyfriend). Then when they break up with said boyfriend, they'll want to know what you're up to. Women who are polyamorous are usually dating a total beta, but desiring an alpha (or at least a guy who isn't a total beta). In terms of ethics, why not just be honest about where you're at? We don't really live in a society that demands monogamy anymore. If you're cool with her banging other dudes, at least at the outset, chances are she won't ask you a lot of questions about how you spent your Tuesday night.

Personally, I've always been pretty open about where I'm at. I don't call girls I'm just banging my "girlfriend", usually just a "friend" or something ambiguous like "girl" "ladyface" "hun", etc. None of this is rocket science -- you can figure out when she's your girlfriend, or when she's just a girl you hang out with and bang.

In terms of marriage, in my opinion, it defeats the entire purpose if you're cheating on your wife. The point of marriage is to start and maintain a familial unit. No one forces you to get married, and you can spend years just swiping right on Bumble and dating. If you want to date casually, go for it. There is literally nothing stopping you (I'd avoid getting her pregnant, though). But if you get married, the goal should be to have kids, raise them, and function as a family unit. Also bear in mind that marriage is a church sacrament, so I'm not really sure why you'd want to purport to honor God and then break the vows you made in front of your friends and family. Why cheat when you can just be single?

We have a lot of discussions about masculinity on here. In my opinion, part of masculinity is knowing how to differentiate casual relationships and committed relationships. Admittedly, a lot of my most masculine friends have wives and kids, and cheat on them every chance they get. It's usually the actual alpha males -- not "I read books about game on the internet." These are the guys who could actually win a street fight and can bench a lot more weight than I can.

As I grow and learn, I've been moving away from casual relationships.

Again, it comes down to what you want out of life, and who you want to be as a person.

Do you want to be a committed father and husband? A playboy? Do you have time for a girlfriend? Is she worth committing to? Are you trying to start a family, or just bang random smuts from the internet?

Post: #33

Well if you have four or five wives there is little incentive to cheat?

Post: #34

(05-13-2018 11:57 PM)questor70 Wrote:  

(05-13-2018 04:51 PM)EndsExpect Wrote:  I understand that atheists can have morals, but.... why? What's the point? Are you just looking for moral exculpation?

This is such a loaded question. It's not necessary to feel threatened by supernatural hellfire and damnation to have a conscience. If that were the case then nobody would ever feel guilty if they felt they could get away with murder, literally or figuratively. Human nature just doesn't work that way.
In the same way you could argue that fidelity should not be dependent on formal commitments like marriage, same with morality. If you're committed to someone, a marriage vow is unnecessary. If you're not committed to someone, a marriage vow is just a small hurdle to jump, made smaller due to the lack of stigma and no-fault divorce.
Just remember it's called "cheating" for a reason. Cheating is not an honorable thing to do whether it's cheating on a test or screwing around on the side. To suggest anything else is just the hamster talking. If you want an open relationship then make it clear from the get go.

I don't think that most religious people are motivated at all by hellfire and damnation. Perhaps a few, but the vast majority are motivated by group inclusion. They follow the precepts so that they can be part of the community, and because they believe the rules were set down by a higher being.

Let's be honest. The majority of men want fidelity from a woman, but don't truly want to provide it in return. We make this accommodation because we are not successful or strong enough to keep a woman without providing this in return.

I'm going to take this answer to mean that despite not believing in religion... you cannot shake your mind free of it's moral imperatives.

(05-14-2018 04:46 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  Because its an intelligent and rational behavior that humans evolved so we can succeed as a species, and have nice things.
Society runs on a social and ethical contract. With empathy comes the knowledge that being lied to, stolen from, raped, killed or being beaten up is not nice, and therefore not nice to do that to someone else.
If we all abstain from doing bad things to each other, we all collectively have a better life.
I don't want to derail this thread (meet me in the does god exist thread) but humans inventing religions is emergent behavior AFTER ethics developed, not the other way around.
Doing the right thing makes you feel good for a reason. Guilt is there to warn you that bad things happen when you make bad choices.
There's nowhere to hide when you look in the mirror. You are the only person that can see and remember everything you have done in your life. All the lies, the cheating, the stealing and also all the good things as well.
The man in the mirror is the only opinion that matters.
I for one wouldn't compromise that for a fold of skin and a few minutes pleasure...

I don't want to derail this thread either, however I think it's an important question to consider. I can understand why the theists feel guilty about this... but I think the atheists have to ask themselves why.

The answer seems to be empathy for you. However, empathy is something you choose to feel or not, same with guilt. Why do you choose to indulge those emotions if they don't help you?

I mean every time you pump and dump some woman... whether she seems to be just out for fun or not... you know it eats away at a little piece of her soul. The guys on this board joke about the 1,000 cock stare, and although it is just a joke, there is truth to it. Women don't often learn to control their emotions... and the carousel has a profound impact on most of them. So... to my opinion this really seems like selective guilt. Some of us are choosing to feel guilty based on ridiculous and irrational ideas. That's my opinion at least.

Post: #35

It's an ancient Western tradition for men with some means to have a wife, kids and mistresses over the years. Men can be happy and committed while doing this - women usually can not (with very few exceptions).

Post: #36

As I get older I mull this question ever so often, I've ran through alot of girls, been in a few relationships, but mostly as of late, I've just got my fuck buddies.

Thanks to PT, the dupe link he sent actually had my initial response to "cheating" in a relationship.

/thread-62578...pid1564976


Now to keep in mind, I've never claimed I have a moral compass or have the moral high ground. I have some conflicting views and yes, some are hypocritical.

I also don't believe in hellfire and damnation for my actions, and I'm fully aware and will take responsibility if I hurt anyone.


I still think my views haven't changed (maybe it's the sociopath in me)

I don't believe in them mirror and the man either.


Sometimes a man needs some strange pussy, it's that simple.

He can maintain his love for one woman, while still banging on the side and just having a good time.

I've done this a few times and I've got no qualms about it, however, I did hold an iron clad frame on our relationship dynamics.

2 of the LTR's I ended it on amicable terms (it's me, not you) the 3rd was more a gray area relationship fling and she got wise.

Ever since I dumped my last girl in February I haven't had any urges to get into relationships, however I do have the urge to find high quality girls, which has crashed the amount of dates I've been one (with a few other self help/goals factors)

I didn't have slight sense of guilt, it's more brushing aside another shit test when a girl says "what are we".

Women "want" the comfort of knowing they're your woman - matter of fact most women do, that's why when they do cheat, it's because of an emotional attachment and want to the man they're cheating on with.

As been repeated before, most men cheat physically whereas most women cheat emotionally.

Perhaps all the women I've slept with has ruined me when it comes to monogamous relationships.

I haven't been in a monogamous relationship (on my end) in probably 4-5 years now.

Maybe part of me is indeed jaded (I don't think so) - but I damn well know what women are capable of and the whole "AWALT" - obviously "some" slight deviations. Hell the shit girls will do for money on SA for example or even on datings apps, or the BDSM DD/lg shit I've done with women.

It's not like I'm not open to being "open and loving" with a woman, currently it's more of a why should I? All the women im banging we just have laughs, bang, catch up on life, and just enjoy eachothers company (occasionally going out).

I guess I just haven't slowed down on chasing poon, I don't think I can do the children, and marriage thing.



To answer OP:

If your gut tells you it isn't right and you're in a moral dilemma, you might want step back take a breath and look inwards.


Maybe this relationship is boring and you're over it?

Maybe you need to spice up your sex life?

Maybe your relationship has ran it's course and it's time to move on.

Maybe you've gotten comfortable and she's gotten lazy.

Sure she's a great gal, but does check all the boxes for wifey? Odds are, probably not yet.

Are you even in the mindset to purse this relationship further?

If not, why waste your time in a relationship?

Post: #37

To answer OP most succinctly: depends on you.

"Cheating" in this context means having relations outside of an agreed upon exclusive romantic relationship. Therefor, in order to cheat, you have to have explicitly agreed to be monogamous with your girl in the first place. In the end, the "should I feel guilty" part is on you whether or not you care about your agreement with this girl. It all comes down to one's individual circumstances, perspective, sense or moral compass, rationale, etc.

Post: #38

I am not really a bluepill guy. So probably not. I'm totally open to open relationships, she can see other guys on the side. Altho I'll always make sure to let her know I'm the highest value guy in her "roster" so I can make her exclusive anytime and that wouldn't be a problem.

Post: #39

Based on previous experience it undermines the relationship you are in. The trust goes and it soon ends. Women can sense this on some level.

Post: #40

No, my biggest regret is not cheating enough before taking the red pill

Post: #41

The question is malformed.

How you feel is irrelevant. To put it shortly, by definition, cheating is immoral (or just wrong). It's not much different from not abiding by a contract agreed by both parties. If you put a money in a bank, it's a contract that the bank will keep your money, not run away with it. You've entrusted the other party and both are in a mutual obligation and expect to fulfil that obligation. Otherwise, it's game theoretic tit for that in the long term, which is corrosive personally (unless you're a psycho-sociopath) and for the society at large. Cheating, therefore, is for lowly, spineless and lacking moral compass betas.

Post: #42

(05-15-2018 01:04 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  It all comes down to one's individual circumstances, perspective, sense or moral compass, rationale, etc.

That's the moral relativism of the worst kind. Does killing people red jumpers is allowed due to someone's "perspective" they hate red jumpers?

Post: #43

With due respect, your analogies are utterly worthless. Are you actually comparing loose sexual behaviour with murder? And theft with adultery? FYI most countries consider theft and murder are crimes; few countries consider cheating even a misdemeanor, outside Moslem countries of course.

Post: #44

Re-posting from the other Cheating thread:

To share one of my longest personal experiences while being on the blue pill. This was an LTR with a Russian exchange student who I met in Colorado (a 7). We began sleeping in 2009 and being a chump, I quickly agreed to an LTR - mostly due to her superb blowjob skills and her seemingly being open-mined to an open-relationship as long as we were honest with one another.

After moving to Russia the next year, got a gig teaching English for corporate students and lived in my gf's flat in the distant Moscow suburbs (one hour train ride) and one of my colleagues an (8.5 with super long legs) was giving me the green light. I told my girlfriend that I was going to sleep with her and she was nervous about it, though she actually blew me as I was seducing my colleague via skype. After I went over to my colleagues house to bang her, my gf became upset and ran away to live with her aunt for a week. Undeterred, continued banging my long-legged colleague while my gf came back and caused a scene when she saw our pic together on facebook. She then left again, to visit her parents this time. I continued my affair.

A few weeks later, she came back with an upgrade - died her hair blonde, sexy dresses and high heels. Went up to a 9 so went back to fucking her. I would continue fucking both girls for the next month or so and even suggested a schedule to my gf that I would spend one night there one night here. This caused her to become upset at me again. I went back to the tall mistress. Eventually, my gf persuaded me to offer a threesome to my mistress (brilliant move on her part) and my mistress refused and threw out all my clothes from her apartment. Went back to living with my gf.

In essence, the relationship never really went back to normal as after the threat of my mistress was gone, she began to nag me about cheating on her. At every argument, her counterpoint was that I was a cheater. Our relationship hobbled along with me now going behind her back (throw-away phones, fake accounts, etc.) to cheat and she actually got back at me when I went on a hunting trip to Karelia in 2011. She told me about it herself, that it was a onetime fling an I said "we are even" We still had amazing sex and filmed amateur porn but the trust was gone. On a visa run in 2012, I cheated on her some more with 38 year old single mom (a 6.5) and was honest with her - which caused her to have a nervous break down. A month later, she began cheating on me, just as I had helped her buy and remodel a new flat. It was obvious since she was not home. Finally, I decided to end this cycle and rented a flat with some of my buddies.

Draw your own conclusions, but as you can see, girls may agree to an open-relationship in theory, but they are not equipped to handle it when it actually happens. Though on the bright side, they will "upgrade" themselves if they think you are worse keeping. Perhaps continuing to cheat openly would have kept the pressure on her but the nagging and stress outweighed the sex. When I was moving out, I felt just like Roosh did at the end of Possy Paradise. I was free to chase the holy grail once again.

Post: #45

(05-20-2018 06:26 AM)ksbms Wrote:  

(05-15-2018 01:04 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  It all comes down to one's individual circumstances, perspective, sense or moral compass, rationale, etc.

That's the moral relativism of the worst kind. Does killing people red jumpers is allowed due to someone's "perspective" they hate red jumpers?

Comparing fucking around on your girlfriend with murder in this context is a retarded analogy. Try using a little discretion; we're all men of reason here.

Post: #46

Some observations and then my personal thoughts.

So, I dealt with this stuff on a daily basis for many, many years. I'm not going to rehash my background (you can find it on other threads), but I met with and analyzed thousands of couples and individuals who were involved in affairs, had cheated, had open relationships, etc.

Observations

A person's previous sexual experiences directly affect their view of and behavior within subsequent relationships (of any kind). As an individual's number of sexual partners increases, so does their propensity to cheat on any future partner. This is true for both men and women and the "perfectness" of said future partner seems to have little affect on the behavior.

Women are much, much more likely than men to engage in "revenge cheating". If they know or have a good suspicion you are cheating on them, they are far more likely to "get you back" by cheating on you. Female "revenge cheating" is also the scenario in which the man is least likely to discover the infidelity.

An overwhelming majority of open relationships (read: almost all) fail. This includes people who are totally on board with the concept and "just want to have fun".

It is true that men seem to be able to dissociate sex from emotion far more easily than women. However, this is hardly true for all men and all women. Some men associate a deep amount of emotional connection to sex. Some women are ludics. But, on average, things like commiting infidelity or collecting a high number of sexual partners is going to have a greater negative (psychological and emotional) impact on women. In line with that, things like this will make it harder for a woman to go on to have successful relationships. That is not, necessarily, as true for men.

Every serious study undertaken on the subject had determined that men cheat more than women. However, it has been widely recognized that (since the late 1980s, in the US) women have been catching up. Esther Perel (I know, a favorite on this forum) has written extensively about noticing something like a 40% increase in female clients committing infidelity. My experience was similar. I would add that I believe much of that to be culturally driven. Women, being far more agreeable and attuned to social cues, compliance, and shaming, react to the domain they find themselves in.

Now, some personal thoughts.

Feel bad? Why?

It would seem you can only feel bad for three reasons. First, you could be letting yourself down. Perhaps you have developed a personal identity that doesn't recognize itself as a cheater. Or, as many women I have interviewed have told me, "My parents didn't raise me to do stuff like this." It is part of who you are, and you have done something you didn't think you could ever do. This is how people get PTSD. Second, you could be letting down something higher than yourself. Perhaps you are religious. Perhaps you subscribe to some non-theistic ethos or philosophy that discourages or shames infidelity. Perhaps you agree with many on this forum that heightened promiscuity (among women, generally, but it takes two to tango) is part and parcel of the decline of Western Civilization. In this way, you see yourself either as disappointing a higher ideal outside of yourself or contributing to something you consider, at least, very bad. Finally, you could feel bad simply for "doing wrong by" someone you have an emotional attachment to. Presumably, most women would be heartbroken by infidelity. If you have any positive feelings for the woman in question, it would only be natural to wish to avoid emotionally damaging her. That isn't "beta", per se. It is human nature.

If any of the above stated ideas, resonates with you, then of course you should feel bad about cheating. The depth of that feeling will depending on which one(s) of the above you connect with and how serious your devotion to God/yourself/mos maiorum/girfriend is.

As a final thought, I will leave you with this. As others have said, many of us on this forum do not know one another. But, there are general emotional and psychological threads that seem to serve as an underpinning for human thought and behavior. Most people, both male and female, react horribly to infidelity. The male reactions is often some approximation of homicidal rage. The female reaction is a numbing effect. It causes them to doubt themselves in every way, and, almost always, causes an emotional blunting from which they never recover. It chips away a bit of their psyche. If it happens just a few times, they are gone in the same way a woman with five hundred sexual partners is gone. They build up an impenetrable shell that simultaneously protects them and makes them treat future men in their lives horribly.

If I could make one large-scale alteration of the culture in which we currently reside, it would be to re-emphasize commitment and truth within emotional/sexual/marital relationships. It has been successfully argued (to me) that the sexual misadventures and failures of the Baby Boomer Generation have directly caused the sexual morass that Generations X, Y, and Z find themselves in. A great deal of those misadventures and failures were infidelity*. And, I simply do not have time to go in to the effects that parental infidelity has on children. Suffice it to say, it is very, very bad.

I, personally, think that most people (men and women) should probably feel some level of "bad" about cheating. If you don't, I would examine exactly what it is in your personal makeup that allows you to break a (perhaps unspoken) contract you have made with another person, often to their great detriment (if they find out).

I have advised a fairly sizeable number of friends and family on this issue over the years. I have, generally, given the same advice. In any long-term relationship, sexual desire and performance will wax and wane. So will things like health and physical appearance. That should be obvious. It doesn't mean that the relationship has failed or somehow, now "lacks" a quality that can't be rediscovered. When that aspect of a relationship starts to wane, I caution against immediately considering outside arrangements. Can the woman/girlfriend/wife do something or somethings to reignite or make up for a sexual drought? Has she fallen of the course in some ways that are fixable (gaining weight for example)? Are their sexual fetishes, kinks, or "experiments" that either of you have considered engaging in that you haven't? Have you considered a sexual fast? Is it, perhaps, a biochemical or hormonal concern? I could go on and on and on. After considering all of these things, I would advise re-evaluating the underlying reasons you may feel "bad" if you were unfaithful. How long have you been together? Do you have kids? What is your position in the community (if you have one)?

I'm rambling at this point, but I cannot get in to discussions of infidelity without attempting to offer a more serious consideration. I have simply seen too much. The image of a man spending the last twenty years of his life alone in some desultory apartment because he decided that a ten minute blowjob from a 51-year-old divorcee would feel great... is depressing. I have seen that and the opposite over and over again. Yes, this forum has a large game component. But, we also need to analyze things in the grand scheme. For those that never see themselves having a wife or kids, much of this may not apply (unless you are the other man, in which case... different discussion). But, for those that do have those things or plan on having them, this becomes a much more serious conversation. I do not believe, from all that I have seen, that potentially jeopardizing those things is worth the momentary and fleeting release that one gets from cheating.

*Note that by infidelity, adultery, cheating, etc., I am speaking of engaging in extra-pair copulation without the explicit approval of the mate (to put it technically). Open relationships, while not ideal for most people, do not often qualify as "cheating" by this definition.

Post: #47

*Apologies for the typos and weird grammar at the end. I am operating on not much sleep and too much caffeine.

Post: #48

I have only cheated on a serious relationship (+1 year) once. I did it and I have absolutely no regrets. Relationship in my mind was over after this though. She will never be the mother of my children, I will never marry this woman. Because I cheated on her. I ended things 6 months later, she never knew, she never got hurt because of it. I did not feel any guilt whatsoever. In my mind I justified my cheating due to small bad behavior or her side (Posting duck face selfies on instagram and bullshit like this which to me where huge red flags) Even though she was loyal, caring,etc...Did she deserve it? I don´t know. I did it, It was a fun memory that will stay forever in my dirty mind.

After some years of self awareness and becoming a more mature person. I came to the conclusion that I respect people who are loyal to each other. When you find that right partner you know an orgasm aint worth it to loose a great companion.

If I want to bang another bitch there is something wrong and I don´t need to drag another person into my misery.

Living a monogamous life it is indeed hard for us players. It is also hard to keep a great physique, build businesses, be your own boss, etc... I kinda get used to by now

Post: #49

Cheating on a loyal woman = BETA cuck

Staying loyal to a loyal woman = Now that requires strength of character - Alpha

Post: #50

It's more than just about the relationship in my opinion, it's about being a man of his word.

I would really hate to think that after all the red-pill knowledge I have picked up over the last few years that I would easily let myself become a deceitful man because of pussy.