Post: #26

Unfortunately no. Bow hunting is illegal in Croatia, but there were some attempts to make it legal. No one really knows why is that so, but I think it has to do with combination of preserving really rich wildlife and getting rid of those who would only wound animals. Bows require lot of practice, as you know, but rifles don't so much and rifle will kill animal instantly in most times, whereas bad shot with arrow will make animal die in agony. Our hunters are probably not yet ready for that and there are not many people interested in bow hunting.

Its really cool that you are a bow hunter. Have you ever tried to hunt with self bow (like I made here) or with fiberglass one? Its supposed to be different than compound and I heard from some bow hunters abroad that you must be much closer than 30 meters to make accurate kill. What is your take on it?

Post: #27

(08-21-2017 04:11 AM)JohnGalt007 Wrote:  ...

Welcome aboard John, but I must warn you that's an unfortunate choice of username you have.

We already had a John_Galt, and he was a cockbag.

Post: #28

Tex , Thanks for the welcome to the forum. It seems to be quite a wealth of knowledge among-st like-minded men . John Galt is a character in one of my favorite books "Atlas Shrugged" , in the novel he dissapears from a society that doesnt appreciate his value, I identify with that having left the USSA for similar reasons and now live as an expat. I assume you are from TX . I also will always have a place in my heart for TX!

Sterling Archer- I reside in Estonia but am an expat "refugee" originally from Texas. I have never hunted with a self-bow or long bow but have interest in beginning. I compete in 3D Tournaments and enjoy it as practice for the hunt. As far as bowhunting in Europe, Hungary, Spain, Finland, Estonia are good options. From what I understand you can bowhunt Croatia behind high fences. I would have to respectfully disagree with your statements about bowhunting and wounded animals. It is my experience that bowhunters tend to be more serious, practice more and respect animals better than Rifle hunters on average. There is no difference between a bad rifle shot wounding an animal and a bad bow shot, the difference is the range it occurred at .

Things are changing fast in Europe for bowhunters. Just this year they made it legal to hunt WHitetail deer in Finland with a bow (there is a large population hat was transplanted from the USA).

I would be interested in networking with other bowhunters on the forum especially ones that reside in Europe and take the sport seriously.

Post: #29

(08-21-2017 11:27 AM)JohnGalt007 Wrote:  I would have to respectfully disagree with your statements about bowhunting and wounded animals. It is my experience that bowhunters tend to be more serious, practice more and respect animals better than Rifle hunters on average. There is no difference between a bad rifle shot wounding an animal and a bad bow shot, the difference is the range it occurred at .

I know what you mean, but my comment was more concerning our Croatian hunters and their mentality and that is why I doubt there is place in near future for bowhunting here.
Bowhunting is legal only in some private areas, which I don't know where they are because I am not in these "circles."

I would also like to try 3D archery, but I am not aware of clubs or competitions here.

Post: #30

(08-21-2017 12:08 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 11:27 AM)JohnGalt007 Wrote:  I would have to respectfully disagree with your statements about bowhunting and wounded animals. It is my experience that bowhunters tend to be more serious, practice more and respect animals better than Rifle hunters on average. There is no difference between a bad rifle shot wounding an animal and a bad bow shot, the difference is the range it occurred at .

I know what you mean, but my comment was more concerning our Croatian hunters and their mentality and that is why I doubt there is place in near future for bowhunting here.
Bowhunting is legal only in some private areas, which I don't know where they are because I am not in these "circles."

I would also like to try 3D archery, but I am not aware of clubs or competitions here.

3d Archery is a great way to hone your skills and meet other men interested in the sport.

Post: #31

Fast drying - brief post

Just to explain one technique I personally always use. Even though I recommend here in datasheet for beginners to take their time with seasoning the wood, there is a way to get bow from fresh tree till finished bow in 3 to 4 weeks.
I am generally pretty impatient so I like this method the best. In 20th century, months and years of seasoning the bow woods were popular, maybe mainstream idea, until more and more bowyers got to use fast drying technique. They got enough evidence to show that it is completely equal to long seasoning. Some say though that long seasoning removes stress from wood and that fast drying does not.

Technique
After you cut fresh tree, remove the bark and do usual marking of your intended bow design. You will probably need to use sharpie because pencil will not leave marks on slightly wet wood.
Now go the usual route of shaping but don't go fully to the drawn lines. Leave the bow slightly oversized in profile. Also, limb thickness should also be oversized.

Now, clamp that bow to some steel or aluminum bar or clamp it to a desk in warm, but not too hot place with good air flow.
After 2 weeks, remove the clamps and weigh the bow on digital scale. Proceed to writing down weight and measuring it for couple of days. When the weight stops dropping, bow will be dry enough for further work. This here is same principle I described in datasheet.

Proceed to shaping the bow, i.e. removing the excess of wood like in datasheet, tillering it and finishing it.

Post: #32

Sterling Archer.

Is this a business for you? Do you sell your bows for profit or is this only a hobie? DO you make your own arrows?

Post: #33

Currently its my hobby and passion, like I work around with steel and other things. I plan to make it a side business in near future. I still have to get more experience and what is also important, good quantity and quality of wood. For example I should have entire stack of wood laying around so I could just pick something up and make for client as opposed to go to the woods each time someone wants a bow.
Also, shit is that there is almost no market for bows I would make here in Croatia. Even local archery clubs that do reenactment use fiberglass bows that they bought from internet. Ridiculous, don't you think? If I were to come to them they would probably ignore me as they know that they could easily buy from certified maker that uses machines and has his own workers instead of some unknown guy. I mean, I should try to show them my work but I am not really optimistic, especially what other things I saw with them, which I will not discuss here.

I don't make arrows just because I don't have access to feathers and good quality timber from which I could turn shafts.

Post: #34

(08-25-2017 10:54 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  Currently its my hobby and passion, like I work around with steel and other things. I plan to make it a side business in near future. I still have to get more experience and what is also important, good quantity and quality of wood. For example I should have entire stack of wood laying around so I could just pick something up and make for client as opposed to go to the woods each time someone wants a bow.
Also, shit is that there is almost no market for bows I would make here in Croatia. Even local archery clubs that do reenactment use fiberglass bows that they bought from internet. Ridiculous, don't you think? If I were to come to them they would probably ignore me as they know that they could easily buy from certified maker that uses machines and has his own workers instead of some unknown guy. I mean, I should try to show them my work but I am not really optimistic, especially what other things I saw with them, which I will not discuss here.

I don't make arrows just because I don't have access to feathers and good quality timber from which I could turn shafts.

I think if a guy were to produce a hand made bow with hand made arrows and forged arrow heads, leather bowmounted quiver. There would be quite a market for that at a nice price point, especially if it was high quality.

Post: #35

Yeah, that is probably true. But again, I have to have all resources available at hand to say "hey, I will make you this and that, just say". Currently its more of "maybe, I'll try to see what I got". That is a big difference.

Post: #36

(08-25-2017 01:10 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  Yeah, that is probably true. But again, I have to have all resources available at hand to say "hey, I will make you this and that, just say". Currently its more of "maybe, I'll try to see what I got". That is a big difference.

I am interested in building a bow and hunting with it. I am preparing for the beginning of ELk season in Idaho now but will have the time this winter to start. Ill post some pics in this thread of my progress.

Post: #37

Try it. What trees in Idaho you have access to?

Post: #38

(08-26-2017 06:45 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  Try it. What trees in Idaho you have access to?

In Idaho We have mostly pine and cedar varieties.

I also live part of the year in Estonia and we have Oaks here.

Post: #39

If one of the cedar species is eastern red cedar, than you have good bow wood that behaves sometimes behaves unexpectedly on tiller from what I hear, but if you succeed in making a bow from it, you will enjoy it.

What about these oaks? What species are they? Have you access to ash maybe?

In any case, maybe you are best with making a board bow, which I described on previous page. You can buy for cheap red oak boards from one of these lumber stores which you have all across USA (sadly we don't have these) and try to pick up as best board as you can.

Post: #40

(08-28-2017 10:51 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  If one of the cedar species is eastern red cedar, than you have good bow wood that behaves sometimes behaves unexpectedly on tiller from what I hear, but if you succeed in making a bow from it, you will enjoy it.

What about these oaks? What species are they? Have you access to ash maybe?

In any case, maybe you are best with making a board bow, which I described on previous page. You can buy for cheap red oak boards from one of these lumber stores which you have all across USA (sadly we don't have these) and try to pick up as best board as you can.

My thaught is to make the bow from some sort of Oak, and Ash arrows and Forged broadheads. Ill take my elk skin this year and make a quiver . Turkey Feathers for fletching. Ill be beginning this project after hunting season this winter. Hopefully to hunt with the bow next year for Deer/Elk.

Post: #41

Saw this video and thought I should put it in this thread. Well worth a watch if you are just starting and don't know what tools/accessories to get.

Post: #42

To JohnGalt 007^^
Just find a home depot or lowes and sort through their pile of 1x2" red oak boards, make a few terrible bows with a nylon tillering string and worry about fancy stuff later. Wear safety glasses because sometimes bow limbs explode.

You can in theory make a bow in eight or ten hours (or less) if you know what you're doing but the trial-and-error portion will take a few months and a fair amount of wasted lumber. I knew a guy who was highly skilled at woodworking and even his first few bows were terrible, because tillering is a more dynamic process than cabinetmaking.

From an engineering perspective, any bow you take in the field for hunting should be overbuilt somewhat in order to deal with adverse conditions (extreme cold or damp, or lack of humidity). If you're making an american style longbow, consider making the working part of the limb 2 1/4" wide instead of 2" wide, for instance, to increase the factor of safety in case of extreme cold. Wider limbs are harder to tiller, so if this is a problem, bring a backup.

FYI, a lot of the ancient bows dug out from bogs or swamps or glaciers were fairly ugly pieces of shit that would have shot poorly (hand shock) or had weirdly light or improbably heavy draw weights. Most of the bows the native americans used were also terrible, but they didn't need great archery equipment. Modern man needs better archery equipment because we can't creep to within striking distance of a stag and kill it with a spear. Game nowadays spook easily and we're just not as good at hunting either.

(08-25-2017 10:54 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  Also, shit is that there is almost no market for bows I would make here in Croatia. Even local archery clubs that do reenactment use fiberglass bows that they bought from internet. Ridiculous, don't you think? If I were to come to them they would probably ignore me as they know that they could easily buy from certified maker that uses machines and has his own workers instead of some unknown guy. I mean, I should try to show them my work but I am not really optimistic, especially what other things I saw with them, which I will not discuss here.

I don't make arrows just because I don't have access to feathers and good quality timber from which I could turn shafts.

I wouldn't bother with making arrows with a lathe. You could buy a dowel-cutting machine and it might be a great investment (assuming you can find straight grained board lumber and have a bandsaw to cut it into square shafts) but most of the good arrows I've found were made from shoots, usually found growing in a ditch somewhere.

I don't know what to say about your local archery club. That's one problem I would have with selling bows; liability. It's too easy for somebody to buy a handmade wooden bow, fuck it up while using it because he's an idiot (or his friends are idiots), and pull it far past the ear when it's only designed for a 28" draw length because they have to prove they're strong to their retarded friends. Then the bow explodes, showering everybody with splinters and causing injuries, and now you're the bad guy for selling them a "dangerous implement".

Keep that in mind if and when you're pricing your bows - make them look special and sell them at a luxury price so they think twice about even letting their friends touch their things. It's just not enough to tell somebody "this is a custom built weapon for you and nobody else".

You might want to check out LARP clubs instead of "archery" clubs. Incels and WoW nerds have a lot of money compared to regular dudes because they don't spend it on women.

Post: #43

Hey Flanders, good of you to chime in, seems you are acquainted with archery. Keep in mind that post you quoted was months ago and here is how things are currently going on.

Since the post I opened paypal account and started ordering from ebay. I got the wild geese feathers, feather jig and plastic nocks. I am still looking for tips and I might just buy field points from local archery shop. Regarding shafts, I got positive opinions on archery forum about dowels. So not making dowels like you say, but buying them already finished and cutting them to length. The dowels will be carefully selected, watching for the least violated grain. Since I will mount plastic nocks on them, they are even more safer than cutting self nocks into dowels.

I made also spine tester and read and educated thoroughly on arrow making. So I could say I am at least bit prepared for making my first arrows. Of course, I will put some pictures here when I make couple of them. Currently I am working on 3 bows and when I finish them I will start with the arrows.

You're are probably right regarding pricing although there is a caveat. I must price them a bit highly than usual like you said, but at the same time price shouldn't make anyone walk away instantly. I must go for some middle ground. Like I said, market for handcrafted bows is very small here, and opponents are professionals from countries bordering Croatia that use fiberglass and machines. People will mostly go for them, instead for me.

Post: #44

(05-02-2018 12:57 PM)flanders Wrote:  To JohnGalt 007^^
Just find a home depot or lowes and sort through their pile of 1x2" red oak boards, make a few terrible bows with a nylon tillering string and worry about fancy stuff later. Wear safety glasses because sometimes bow limbs explode.

You can in theory make a bow in eight or ten hours (or less) if you know what you're doing but the trial-and-error portion will take a few months and a fair amount of wasted lumber. I knew a guy who was highly skilled at woodworking and even his first few bows were terrible, because tillering is a more dynamic process than cabinetmaking.

From an engineering perspective, any bow you take in the field for hunting should be overbuilt somewhat in order to deal with adverse conditions (extreme cold or damp, or lack of humidity). If you're making an american style longbow, consider making the working part of the limb 2 1/4" wide instead of 2" wide, for instance, to increase the factor of safety in case of extreme cold. Wider limbs are harder to tiller, so if this is a problem, bring a backup.

FYI, a lot of the ancient bows dug out from bogs or swamps or glaciers were fairly ugly pieces of shit that would have shot poorly (hand shock) or had weirdly light or improbably heavy draw weights. Most of the bows the native americans used were also terrible, but they didn't need great archery equipment. Modern man needs better archery equipment because we can't creep to within striking distance of a stag and kill it with a spear. Game nowadays spook easily and we're just not as good at hunting either.

Very good advice. Really, since you Americans have these big box stores that sell boards, it would be shame not to take that opportunity. Hell, my first bows were from character saplings, instead of boards, and thus I had a much higher difficulty learning tillering, but good side is that I got the idea of tillering character bows much quicker than people making first bows just from boards.

What you said about woodworker friend of yours is the same as the case of my father's friend. That guy since he has machines, decided to make bow from laminates. He made pretty much everything good, except he didn't really understood much about mechanics of bow and design. His bow was underpowered and/or even broken later (not sure though).

I think the best advice I could give to any novice bowyer is to go for boards and join archery forum such as paleo planet and primitive archer. Loads of professionals there, very willing to help, no matter how much someone asks same questions (and opens threads for them) each time.

Btw, regarding natives, my favorite is Eastern Woodlands type of bow. I will be making Cherokee black locust warbow very soon.

Post: #45

(05-02-2018 01:10 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  Hey Flanders, good of you to chime in, seems you are acquainted with archery. Keep in mind that post you quoted was months ago and here is how things are currently going on.

Since the post I opened paypal account and started ordering from ebay. I got the wild geese feathers, feather jig and plastic nocks. I am still looking for tips and I might just buy field points from local archery shop. Regarding shafts, I got positive opinions on archery forum about dowels. So not making dowels like you say, but buying them already finished and cutting them to length. The dowels will be carefully selected, watching for the least violated grain. Since I will mount plastic nocks on them, they are even more safer than cutting self nocks into dowels.

I made also spine tester and read and educated thoroughly on arrow making. So I could say I am at least bit prepared for making my first arrows. Of course, I will put some pictures here when I make couple of them. Currently I am working on 3 bows and when I finish them I will start with the arrows.

You're are probably right regarding pricing although there is a caveat. I must price them a bit highly than usual like you said, but at the same time price shouldn't make anyone walk away instantly. I must go for some middle ground. Like I said, market for handcrafted bows is very small here, and opponents are professionals from countries bordering Croatia that use fiberglass and machines. People will mostly go for them, instead for me.

I got into the hobby back when there were a few somewhat ugly geocities-looking blogs about it. "Primitiveways" was my go-to for a long time.

I do like plastic nocks for target arrows, though wooden nocks with a bit of fake sinew/glue wrap on the end has an aesthetic look that's hard to turn down, even though they're labor intensive. I have had very good luck with buying cedar shafts online (root river archery, I think?). When I couldn't find field points I would use a 5/16" nut attached to the end of the arrow for shooting stumps. Your mileage may vary with that one but if you're sourcing dowels for fairly cheap it's something to think about. Are you getting cedar shafts?

It is kind of a shame though with the market ... fiberglass bows ruined a lot of the culture and archery as a pastime.

Bowhunters are a small but lively crowd in my area so I usually would talk to them at the range and offer a medium/lowball price for a bow I already made (and was willing to get rid of). When your buyer is a guy who is fine with spending $1k on a pimped out compound bow setup, somebody selling a bow for sixty to a hundred bucks is bound to get them interested, especially if you brought it to the range and are reliably placing arrows with it in front of them. If you have a lot of bows sitting around you don't want it's something to think about. I was lucky to get lumber for free and I usually billed 15$/hr for labor for good "made to order" bows.

My spine tester was pretty ghetto but it worked great. I had a two pound lead weight (everything spray enameled to avoid rubbing lead particles on everything), with a protractor mounted in the center and a few pennies as a counterweight.

I can't really see any of your pictures but you probably have a way better setup. If I could have ever gotten my hands on a garage with good wiring, an electric planer, and a few other nice things, that could have been a badass workshop. I would like to have a blacksmith's forge some day though. I might post a few pictures in the thread since this seems like it might be the general archery thread.

(05-02-2018 01:23 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

(05-02-2018 12:57 PM)flanders Wrote:  To JohnGalt 007^^
Just find a home depot or lowes and sort through their pile of 1x2" red oak boards, make a few terrible bows with a nylon tillering string and worry about fancy stuff later. Wear safety glasses because sometimes bow limbs explode.

You can in theory make a bow in eight or ten hours (or less) if you know what you're doing but the trial-and-error portion will take a few months and a fair amount of wasted lumber. I knew a guy who was highly skilled at woodworking and even his first few bows were terrible, because tillering is a more dynamic process than cabinetmaking.

From an engineering perspective, any bow you take in the field for hunting should be overbuilt somewhat in order to deal with adverse conditions (extreme cold or damp, or lack of humidity). If you're making an american style longbow, consider making the working part of the limb 2 1/4" wide instead of 2" wide, for instance, to increase the factor of safety in case of extreme cold. Wider limbs are harder to tiller, so if this is a problem, bring a backup.

FYI, a lot of the ancient bows dug out from bogs or swamps or glaciers were fairly ugly pieces of shit that would have shot poorly (hand shock) or had weirdly light or improbably heavy draw weights. Most of the bows the native americans used were also terrible, but they didn't need great archery equipment. Modern man needs better archery equipment because we can't creep to within striking distance of a stag and kill it with a spear. Game nowadays spook easily and we're just not as good at hunting either.

Very good advice. Really, since you Americans have these big box stores that sell boards, it would be shame not to take that opportunity. Hell, my first bows were from character saplings, instead of boards, and thus I had a much higher difficulty learning tillering, but good side is that I got the idea of tillering character bows much quicker than people making first bows just from boards.

What you said about woodworker friend of yours is the same as the case of my father's friend. That guy since he has machines, decided to make bow from laminates. He made pretty much everything good, except he didn't really understood much about mechanics of bow and design. His bow was underpowered and/or even broken later (not sure though).

I think the best advice I could give to any novice bowyer is to go for boards and join archery forum such as paleo planet and primitive archer. Loads of professionals there, very willing to help, no matter how much someone asks same questions (and opens threads for them) each time.

Btw, regarding natives, my favorite is Eastern Woodlands type of bow. I will be making Cherokee black locust warbow very soon.

@bold, very true. Paleo planet and primitive archer are great forums, even if you just lurk through the threads. A few really legendary posters on there.

Really, it's never been a better time to be into this hobby, especially with how incredible youtube is. Back in the day all I had was "the leatherwall" that was absolute trash, and another called "buildabow" I think, that one was just awful, full of twelve year olds .. a whole subforum that was just affiliate links. If you wanted results you had to actually buy books over mail, read them, and carefully puzzle out what they were talking about with their badly drawn diagrams, and even then that was a crapshoot since couldn't easily access dozens/hundreds of online reviews like on amazon.

Board bows are good to get some practice in, though I do like sapling bows quite a lot, got a few nice whitewood cherokee style bendy-handle longbows. That is probably my favorite style of bow overall, it's not very labor intensive and they always come out looking great. I'll be interested in seeing pictures of the black locust bow you have in the works. Good luck keeping the belly from crystalling, I hear BL can be challenging to work with. Are you familiar with heat treating?

I've been watching some youtube videos, and here's a guy who makes sheep horn bows for money. Jeeze. I hope he charges no less than a grand apiece, speciality materials demand special pricing and they look amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHDPg9RXUm0

Post: #46

(05-02-2018 02:13 PM)flanders Wrote:  I got into the hobby back when there were a few somewhat ugly geocities-looking blogs about it. "Primitiveways" was my go-to for a long time.

I do like plastic nocks for target arrows, though wooden nocks with a bit of fake sinew/glue wrap on the end has an aesthetic look that's hard to turn down, even though they're labor intensive. I have had very good luck with buying cedar shafts online (root river archery, I think?). When I couldn't find field points I would use a 5/16" nut attached to the end of the arrow for shooting stumps. Your mileage may vary with that one but if you're sourcing dowels for fairly cheap it's something to think about. Are you getting cedar shafts?

Haven't heard about that primitiveways, but I get it. Sometime ago basically only real deal were bowyers that would teach you in person, with occasional good books being published but being pricey.

Quote:It is kind of a shame though with the market ... fiberglass bows ruined a lot of the culture and archery as a pastime.

Everything came to be about fps, spining arrows to be perfect, seeking perfect arrowheads. That is not really so bad, but who can claim to be primitive or traditional when every piece of equipment or your skill is about mathematical calculations. I admit I use mass calculator but that is more of an guide to see what to expect at the end.

Quote:Bowhunters are a small but lively crowd in my area so I usually would talk to them at the range and offer a medium/lowball price for a bow I already made (and was willing to get rid of). When your buyer is a guy who is fine with spending $1k on a pimped out compound bow setup, somebody selling a bow for sixty to a hundred bucks is bound to get them interested, especially if you brought it to the range and are reliably placing arrows with it in front of them. If you have a lot of bows sitting around you don't want it's something to think about. I was lucky to get lumber for free and I usually billed 15$/hr for labor for good "made to order" bows.

That is a good advice but unfortunately bow hunting is prohibited in Croatia. Only place where it is legal are some particular places which I know nothing about. Not sure who hunts there as our hunters are not exactly guys I could picture stalking the white tails in the woods. More of a pot bellied, sitting in a tower (or what is that called) type of guys if you know what I mean.
Currently 2 bows I am working on will be for sale. I will put them on local advertisement page that is similar to craigslist.

Quote:My spine tester was pretty ghetto but it worked great. I had a two pound lead weight (everything spray enameled to avoid rubbing lead particles on everything), with a protractor mounted in the center and a few pennies as a counterweight.

Mine is very simple too, two points on which arrow rests and place to clamp calipers which will measure how much arrow deflexed.

Quote:I can't really see any of your pictures but you probably have a way better setup. If I could have ever gotten my hands on a garage with good wiring, an electric planer, and a few other nice things, that could have been a badass workshop. I would like to have a blacksmith's forge some day though. I might post a few pictures in the thread since this seems like it might be the general archery thread.

What do you mean, you cannot see my pictures? I think the posting service is still showing them correctly.
Btw, I don't like using power tools for bow building except maybe angle grinder to help me clean the transitions from handle to limb.

Quote:@bold, very true. Paleo planet and primitive archer are great forums, even if you just lurk through the threads. A few really legendary posters on there.

Really, it's never been a better time to be into this hobby, especially with how incredible youtube is. Back in the day all I had was "the leatherwall" that was absolute trash, and another called "buildabow" I think, that one was just awful, full of twelve year olds .. a whole subforum that was just affiliate links. If you wanted results you had to actually buy books over mail, read them, and carefully puzzle out what they were talking about with their badly drawn diagrams, and even then that was a crapshoot since couldn't easily access dozens/hundreds of online reviews like on amazon.

It is amazing how quickly I could get help there. Countless times I got guidance about tiller profile or how to do particular stuff. More on primitive archer though as I find that paleo planet archery section is a bit dead in recent times.

Quote:Board bows are good to get some practice in, though I do like sapling bows quite a lot, got a few nice whitewood cherokee style bendy-handle longbows. That is probably my favorite style of bow overall, it's not very labor intensive and they always come out looking great. I'll be interested in seeing pictures of the black locust bow you have in the works. Good luck keeping the belly from crystalling, I hear BL can be challenging to work with. Are you familiar with heat treating?

I practically make most of my bows from saplings. I recently started to experiment with black locust since that wood is pretty good choice for flatbows. Apparently it is very similar to osage in regards ring chasing and whole composition. Heartwood is similar in color too. I don't know when I will start that Cherokee bow, but I will send you a PM with pictures if you want when I get into it.

Indeed, I also heard BL will punish you with wrong tiller by showing you chrysals on the belly. To counter that they say best design for it is pyramid bow. I am not doing that at the moment but I am making a regular flatbow design. Still I will pay great attention to potential chrysals.
I am familiar with heat treating and recently I am experimenting with recurving the tips.

Post: #47

(05-02-2018 02:51 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

(05-02-2018 02:13 PM)flanders Wrote:  I got into the hobby back when there were a few somewhat ugly geocities-looking blogs about it. "Primitiveways" was my go-to for a long time.

I do like plastic nocks for target arrows, though wooden nocks with a bit of fake sinew/glue wrap on the end has an aesthetic look that's hard to turn down, even though they're labor intensive. I have had very good luck with buying cedar shafts online (root river archery, I think?). When I couldn't find field points I would use a 5/16" nut attached to the end of the arrow for shooting stumps. Your mileage may vary with that one but if you're sourcing dowels for fairly cheap it's something to think about. Are you getting cedar shafts?

Haven't heard about that primitiveways, but I get it. Sometime ago basically only real deal were bowyers that would teach you in person, with occasional good books being published but being pricey.

Quote:It is kind of a shame though with the market ... fiberglass bows ruined a lot of the culture and archery as a pastime.

Everything came to be about fps, spining arrows to be perfect, seeking perfect arrowheads. That is not really so bad, but who can claim to be primitive or traditional when every piece of equipment or your skill is about mathematical calculations. I admit I use mass calculator but that is more of an guide to see what to expect at the end.

"Seminars" were a huge deal a while back, nowadays they're called "meetups" or even "trade meetups". Some of the big players still show up.
Weirdly the primitive archery sphere and the pickup artist sphere evolved in about the same time frame in similar ways. I could never make it to any of the meetups (these guys all live in Portland or California, it seems).

Could monetize primitive archery by posting leaflets or news articles saying that a local bowyer is hosting a bow-building seminar and you only have to pay ~100$ for materials and instruction. After startup costs and marketing you still probably pocket at least a third of the proceeds. If it's spun towards 'father-son day' or children it could potentially be really lucrative, since white collar parents will spend any amount of money on their kids to get them away from the xbox for a day. I never had the initiative to do that but it is something to think about if you're trying to grow a community from scratch, essentially.

I thought the engineering/math applications towards primitive archery was a strong plus since it laid waste a lot of bad ideas about the sport, like recurves being naturally superior. It also set up some new and exciting heuristics like poundage/fps rule, basically if your 50# bow can throw a 500 grain hunting arrow at 150 fps it's at a good level of efficiency, with great being 170+ fps and legendary/mythical being 200+ fps. The chronograph is the true test of archery in many respects and it's done a lot of good things.

I'm having issues figuring out the maze of quotes so I'll just reply in blue or something.

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Quote:Bowhunters are a small but lively crowd in my area so I usually would talk to them at the range and offer a medium/lowball price for a bow I already made (and was willing to get rid of). When your buyer is a guy who is fine with spending $1k on a pimped out compound bow setup, somebody selling a bow for sixty to a hundred bucks is bound to get them interested, especially if you brought it to the range and are reliably placing arrows with it in front of them. If you have a lot of bows sitting around you don't want it's something to think about. I was lucky to get lumber for free and I usually billed 15$/hr for labor for good "made to order" bows.

That is a good advice but unfortunately bow hunting is prohibited in Croatia. Only place where it is legal are some particular places which I know nothing about. Not sure who hunts there as our hunters are not exactly guys I could picture stalking the white tails in the woods. More of a pot bellied, sitting in a tower (or what is that called) type of guys if you know what I mean.
Currently 2 bows I am working on will be for sale. I will put them on local advertisement page that is similar to craigslist.

That sucks man, had no idea bowhunting is illegal over there. I imagine it would be difficult to set up a mail order or internet based archery website with shipping and handling limitations. Take-down style longbows required tools I didn't have lol.

Quote:My spine tester was pretty ghetto but it worked great. I had a two pound lead weight (everything spray enameled to avoid rubbing lead particles on everything), with a protractor mounted in the center and a few pennies as a counterweight.

Mine is very simple too, two points on which arrow rests and place to clamp calipers which will measure how much arrow deflexed.

Quote:I can't really see any of your pictures but you probably have a way better setup. If I could have ever gotten my hands on a garage with good wiring, an electric planer, and a few other nice things, that could have been a badass workshop. I would like to have a blacksmith's forge some day though. I might post a few pictures in the thread since this seems like it might be the general archery thread.

What do you mean, you cannot see my pictures? I think the posting service is still showing them correctly.
Btw, I don't like using power tools for bow building except maybe angle grinder to help me clean the transitions from handle to limb.

Maybe my browser doesn't work, I'm not sure.
I'd get a planer mostly to make laminates. Inducing reflex through wood lamination is an addiction that's hard to quit once you've tried it. Not to mention I can steam bend reflex/deflex bows all day or put on rawhide or linen backings but nothing really beats hickory backed osage for durability. I have a handful of osage boards that are gradually turning purple that need backings but haven't put any time towards it in awhile.

Quote:@bold, very true. Paleo planet and primitive archer are great forums, even if you just lurk through the threads. A few really legendary posters on there.

Really, it's never been a better time to be into this hobby, especially with how incredible youtube is. Back in the day all I had was "the leatherwall" that was absolute trash, and another called "buildabow" I think, that one was just awful, full of twelve year olds .. a whole subforum that was just affiliate links. If you wanted results you had to actually buy books over mail, read them, and carefully puzzle out what they were talking about with their badly drawn diagrams, and even then that was a crapshoot since couldn't easily access dozens/hundreds of online reviews like on amazon.

It is amazing how quickly I could get help there. Countless times I got guidance about tiller profile or how to do particular stuff. More on primitive archer though as I find that paleo planet archery section is a bit dead in recent times.

It seems not many people post much of anything there anymore. Some old threads are worth printing out though.

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Quote:Board bows are good to get some practice in, though I do like sapling bows quite a lot, got a few nice whitewood cherokee style bendy-handle longbows. That is probably my favorite style of bow overall, it's not very labor intensive and they always come out looking great. I'll be interested in seeing pictures of the black locust bow you have in the works. Good luck keeping the belly from crystalling, I hear BL can be challenging to work with. Are you familiar with heat treating?

I practically make most of my bows from saplings. I recently started to experiment with black locust since that wood is pretty good choice for flatbows. Apparently it is very similar to osage in regards ring chasing and whole composition. Heartwood is similar in color too. I don't know when I will start that Cherokee bow, but I will send you a PM with pictures if you want when I get into it.

Indeed, I also heard BL will punish you with wrong tiller by showing you chrysals on the belly. To counter that they say best design for it is pyramid bow. I am not doing that at the moment but I am making a regular flatbow design. Still I will pay great attention to potential chrysals.
I am familiar with heat treating and recently I am experimenting with recurving the tips.

I never much cared for pyramid bows, that much physical mass right in the sight plane made shooting them kind of gay, but a lot of people seem to like them. Heat treat and blast the shit out of the belly and you can get away with murder.

That's interesting though that black locust grows in Croatia since I thought BL was a Missouri kind of thing. I imagine you guys have .. ash and beech forests probably? Our type of black walnut is also much different, since European black walnut needs to age for a very long time to have a vintage look while American black walnut has the aged look the day after sawing it.

Post: #48

Quote:"Seminars" were a huge deal a while back, nowadays they're called "meetups" or even "trade meetups". Some of the big players still show up.
Weirdly the primitive archery sphere and the pickup artist sphere evolved in about the same time frame in similar ways. I could never make it to any of the meetups (these guys all live in Portland or California, it seems).

That is funny when I think about it, and true. It seems that during the 90s we get a kind of surge of interest regarding both archery and Game. Really the all important books came out in these years.

Quote:Could monetize primitive archery by posting leaflets or news articles saying that a local bowyer is hosting a bow-building seminar and you only have to pay ~100$ for materials and instruction. After startup costs and marketing you still probably pocket at least a third of the proceeds. If it's spun towards 'father-son day' or children it could potentially be really lucrative, since white collar parents will spend any amount of money on their kids to get them away from the xbox for a day. I never had the initiative to do that but it is something to think about if you're trying to grow a community from scratch, essentially.

That is a good idea, maybe for some time later when I got the means to do that, i.e. build connections, collect a shitload of staves/saplings, got more and better tools, etc.

Quote:I thought the engineering/math applications towards primitive archery was a strong plus since it laid waste a lot of bad ideas about the sport, like recurves being naturally superior. It also set up some new and exciting heuristics like poundage/fps rule, basically if your 50# bow can throw a 500 grain hunting arrow at 150 fps it's at a good level of efficiency, with great being 170+ fps and legendary/mythical being 200+ fps. The chronograph is the true test of archery in many respects and it's done a lot of good things.

I agree with you, but since I don't have chrono or haven't made arrows myself, I never really bothered with that. Also, since bow hunting is prohibited, I don't have interest in making my arrows really perfect. Of course I will try to get them fly as best as I can, but I will not cry if my bow seems slower than these calculated designs.

Quote:That sucks man, had no idea bowhunting is illegal over there. I imagine it would be difficult to set up a mail order or internet based archery website with shipping and handling limitations. Take-down style longbows required tools I didn't have lol.

Actually I don't know yet of limitations. First I will try to open an instagram account which will show my work over time and try to get followers there, with maybe trying to get as much followers from Balkans. I will probably make website later, dedicated solely to bow business, but that will come after I get some things in order.

Quote:Maybe my browser doesn't work, I'm not sure.
I'd get a planer mostly to make laminates. Inducing reflex through wood lamination is an addiction that's hard to quit once you've tried it. Not to mention I can steam bend reflex/deflex bows all day or put on rawhide or linen backings but nothing really beats hickory backed osage for durability. I have a handful of osage boards that are gradually turning purple that need backings but haven't put any time towards it in awhile.

Shit you are right, there are no pictures anymore. I posted them on "postimage", website that held all my pictures for years on other forums. Very weird. Unfortunately there is no way to get them back online now, sad.

Why do you back osage, I see that it functions pretty well on itself? Never tried rawhide or linen backings since I don't know where to get them here. There are some minor things that are usual on archery forums that I don't have access to. For example, there is nowhere to buy scrapers, aside from ordering from abroad. Also, sinew and snake skins. Butchers don't really have sinew.

Quote:It seems not many people post much of anything there anymore. Some old threads are worth printing out though.

Yes, especially those that still show pictures.

Quote:I never much cared for pyramid bows, that much physical mass right in the sight plane made shooting them kind of gay, but a lot of people seem to like them. Heat treat and blast the shit out of the belly and you can get away with murder.

They shouldn't be of high mass, don't get what you are saying? Are you saying that you don't like their width at the fades and that it distracts you when you shoot?

Quote:That's interesting though that black locust grows in Croatia since I thought BL was a Missouri kind of thing. I imagine you guys have .. ash and beech forests probably? Our type of black walnut is also much different, since European black walnut needs to age for a very long time to have a vintage look while American black walnut has the aged look the day after sawing it.

Black locust is probably one of the most common types of trees. It is an invasive species and people planted it all over the world, so it doesn't really seem weird fact that it is the 2nd most common tree I see in woods.
It has very good bow building potential. You can find them very big and straight so when you cut them, you could get a lot of staves. Recently I cut the one whose whole trunk and root was pulled from ground because of snow 4 years ago and since then it has been laying somewhat couple of feet above the ground. From the length of 15 feet I got about 16 staves.
Since it has been already almost dry, it split very easy. You could just hit the wedge couple of times and crack goes through whole length in a second.

Yes, also beech and ash are very common types of woods. Most common type of forest is beech forest with black locusts and some occasional birch and oak.
Btw, Juglans nigra is native to USA, and we find it rare in Europe, doesn't matter it was introduced here in 17th century. I can't really call it thus European since it is not widespread.
There is a European walnut but that wood is distinctly not suitable for bows. Too soft.
That being said, I found a single black walnut among some shrubs near industrial zone. Now, I was being perplexed as how did it get here, but I think it was put there as a decoration, some 30 years ago or so. I didn't want to cut it because it is a single one of its species around my area.

Post: #49

Quote:Why do you back osage, I see that it functions pretty well on itself? Never tried rawhide or linen backings since I don't know where to get them here. There are some minor things that are usual on archery forums that I don't have access to. For example, there is nowhere to buy scrapers, aside from ordering from abroad. Also, sinew and snake skins. Butchers don't really have sinew.

I live a few hundred miles outside of osage's natural range, so all the osage I have access to is cut down into boards by specialty sawmills for people buying (their words) "curious lumber". Therefore all the growth rings are violated all to shit and sometimes there's three or four run-outs per limb, and knots/pins everywhere. Low quality board lumber always needs a backing, wood laminate preferably.

You could always go to a junk shop and buy some old carbon steel butcher knives and sharpen them into scrapers. The best scraper I own is a trash old hickory kitchen knife. A piece of glass from a broken beer bottle works great too.

Old silk ties also work for backings, you just take them apart and glue them to the back. Denim or burlap isn't bad either (a guy on youtube did this). Getting titebond III might be a little harder, but you could always buy gelatin packets and cook it into hide glue.

I agree getting sinew is a pain in the ass. Even if you have immediate access to animal carcasses, processing it is difficult. The only stuff I could get in any quantity was achilles tendons from goat/deer legs, which takes probably twice as much work as backstrap to tear apart into fibers.

A lot of butchers don't like taking direction from laypersons. Though if you want butchers to get you sinew, just ask them to saw off the legs below the "knee" joint for you, 'knees' on most four legged critters are actually ankles and below that is right where the achilles tendon is.
Then you just need to spend maybe half an hour cutting apart the first leg to figure out where the fleshy tendons are at until you get a process down. I've traded a few cases of beer for several five gallon buckets of steer feet and everybody walked away happy.

I tried a sinew backed plum bow on a recommendation from paleoplanet many years back and ended up throwing it away ... what a shame ... those short sinew fibers are harder to reclaim from a back than longer backstrap sinew. It was dumb not to have tried though. Probably put 50-60 hours worth of effort into just that one.

That's kind of why I burned out on archery though, it can be time intensive (rewarding too though) and I have the personality type to always be picking up projects, half finishing them, always being kind of dissatisfied with my old work. I tried getting some blue collar friends involved in it but they seemed pretty bad at it (weren't really committed enough either, not even two or three hours per week).

When I can dig some stuff out of storage I'll post some pictures.

Quote: They shouldn't be of high mass, don't get what you are saying? Are you saying that you don't like their width at the fades and that it distracts you when you shoot?

Yeah, the second one - fade width. I tried making one with roughly an 8" handle that would avoid all that noise but it just wouldn't come out right.

Quote:Black locust is probably one of the most common types of trees. It is an invasive species and people planted it all over the world, so it doesn't really seem weird fact that it is the 2nd most common tree I see in woods.
It has very good bow building potential. You can find them very big and straight so when you cut them, you could get a lot of staves. Recently I cut the one whose whole trunk and root was pulled from ground because of snow 4 years ago and since then it has been laying somewhat couple of feet above the ground. From the length of 15 feet I got about 16 staves.
Since it has been already almost dry, it split very easy. You could just hit the wedge couple of times and crack goes through whole length in a second.

Yes, also beech and ash are very common types of woods. Most common type of forest is beech forest with black locusts and some occasional birch and oak.
Btw, Juglans nigra is native to USA, and we find it rare in Europe, doesn't matter it was introduced here in 17th century. I can't really call it thus European since it is not widespread.
There is a European walnut but that wood is distinctly not suitable for bows. Too soft.
That being said, I found a single black walnut among some shrubs near industrial zone. Now, I was being perplexed as how did it get here, but I think it was put there as a decoration, some 30 years ago or so. I didn't want to cut it because it is a single one of its species around my area.

I've heard nothing but good things about locust, and it looks awesome when finished. I've even seen some locust sapling bows with sapwood backs that performed well and generally had strong aesthetics. I wish it grew here.
I mostly used walnut for laminate bow handles, bow tips, knife handles, or the like. It's too pretty to be used for bows haha.
Where I'm at it's a lot of bur oak, .. varieties of ashes, hornbeams/ironwood, hackberry. Not many monstrously large elms anymore. Too much goddamned box elder.
Man all this lumber talk has me wanting to go to the woods and cut some shit down. The earlywood/latewood thing never concerned me, I just made sure to never cut anything down in the winter since debarking is unnecessary labor.

Post: #50

Ah, that were osage boards. They are probably amazing to make tables from, or some chairs. It makes sense that you backed them, who knows would you ever find one with nice grain (like oak boards) so you could use it without backing. Better be safe than sorry.

Primarily I use now my draw knife as a scraper. If I get it to less than 90° perpendicular to bow belly, it will not leave scrape marks and will get good shavings. When there is aggressive tillering required, I even use coarse rasp.

Plum, especially its wild variant blackthorn doesn't need backing. I mean you can put backing on everything but some woods will function without it. You could have just attempted bendy longbow. That being said, these two are painfully difficult to season/dry and will leave many cracks.
I am too at the moment a bit burned out. 3 bows in a row didn't come at all like I wanted or I threw them away during tillering because of excessive character making tillering difficult. You know, I get to the woods and see a cool piece of wood, spend hours on it shaping it and then I find I cannot get the bend because of all dips and bumps in the limbs. Then I say fuck it and throw it away for firewood. I should stop that. Just now I am also looking at a victim of being for fire. A hornbeam (not hophornbeam!) pyramid bow (haha) that has retarded curves everywhere and when I put it to tiller yesterday, I worked an hour on inner limbs to get them to even bend. During that time of course hinges developed near tips.

I never leave sapwood on BL because it is always in bad condition, especially if the wood is dead standing (you can use dead standing BL with no problems). I got recently a good experience on ring chasing because of that.
Box elder was also introduced in Europe and now it is a completely invasive species. Me and my dad are frequently cutting it for firewood. It is soft and has not good properties for fire, but you can find it a lot. Too bad it is not a bow wood, sometimes I see them straight as a poles.