Post: #51

A few months ago, a massive French construction company was awarded the rights to run Belgrade's airport and expand the airport over the next 25 years.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-serbi...SKBN1EV0B3

I'm seeing many signs that large institutional investors are slowly pouring cash into Belgrade.

This is more evidence that Belgrade probably has 5 years left before cheap Ryanair and Norwegian flights attract hordes of people to the city.

We're ahead of the curve guys. This is the golden age.

Post: #52

(03-27-2018 11:54 PM)stefpdt Wrote:  A few months ago, a massive French construction company was awarded the rights to run Belgrade's airport and expand the airport over the next 25 years.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-serbi...SKBN1EV0B3

I'm seeing many signs that large institutional investors are slowly pouring cash into Belgrade.

This is more evidence that Belgrade probably has 5 years left before cheap Ryanair and Norwegian flights attract hordes of people to the city.

We're ahead of the curve guys. This is the golden age.

I don't know, Belgrade already gets plenty of off the beaten path foreigners visiting it every year for a few days, especially in the warmer months. I don't think a few cheap flights are enough to make it explode as the next Budapest or Prague. The quality of life/sight seeing doesn't seem a fraction as enticing to out compete mainstream spots given that it's not that much cheaper.

I guess it could attract some more young guys trying to pump and dump Serbian girls, but the women already generally require dating and social circle so it's not like currently it's a ONS cakewalk that's about to get ruined. I think quality of life factors like limited health food options, heavy secondhand smoke and very run down aesthetics are the more salient factors likely to keep the tourists and especially digital nomad hipsters at bay for a while, and for good reason.

Post: #53

(03-27-2018 11:54 PM)stefpdt Wrote:  A few months ago, a massive French construction company was awarded the rights to run Belgrade's airport and expand the airport over the next 25 years.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-serbi...SKBN1EV0B3

I'm seeing many signs that large institutional investors are slowly pouring cash into Belgrade.

This is more evidence that Belgrade probably has 5 years left before cheap Ryanair and Norwegian flights attract hordes of people to the city.

We're ahead of the curve guys. This is the golden age.

The improvements are probably overdue-the airport is basically thirdworld. But I think that's an indicator that the infrastructure investment is going to lure in foreign investment. It's only a matter of time til more budget airlines start flying to BGD--and we all know what that result will yield, unfortunately.

It is the golden age, not to overstate the case, but with all the uncertainty about the EU, it is hedonism central right now.

Also, projects like BGD Waterfront are indicators that the city is soon going to be foreign owned.

Post: #54

(03-28-2018 10:23 AM)Dragan Wrote:  

(03-27-2018 11:54 PM)stefpdt Wrote:  A few months ago, a massive French construction company was awarded the rights to run Belgrade's airport and expand the airport over the next 25 years.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-serbi...SKBN1EV0B3

I'm seeing many signs that large institutional investors are slowly pouring cash into Belgrade.

This is more evidence that Belgrade probably has 5 years left before cheap Ryanair and Norwegian flights attract hordes of people to the city.

We're ahead of the curve guys. This is the golden age.

The improvements are probably overdue-the airport is basically thirdworld. But I think that's an indicator that the infrastructure investment is going to lure in foreign investment. It's only a matter of time til more budget airlines start flying to BGD--and we all know what that result will yield, unfortunately.

It is the golden age, not to overstate the case, but with all the uncertainty about the EU, it is hedonism central right now.

Also, projects like BGD Waterfront are indicators that the city is soon going to be foreign owned.

If/when a worldwide recession hits people won't be able to spend and travel as much and foreign entities probably won't be engaging in as many high risk ventures in the developing world. I think a lot of the paranoia about entire countries getting ruined in the near future are based on extrapolating the current market heater that can't keep going forever.

Post: #55

I think I will swing by Belgrade for sure this Summer .... it was not really on my radar til I saw this thread.

Kiev 6 years ago was amazing but things have changed so much... need to find greener pastures til they also get played out too.

Post: #56

(03-28-2018 12:17 PM)rishboy77 Wrote:  Kiev 6 years ago was amazing but things have changed so much... need to find greener pastures til they also get played out too.

Good luck with that, Belgrade is though. Locals are fare better looking than Ukrainian guys and girls prefer to date them over foreigners.

Clubs are hard with social circles, table services, no dancefloors and all tables and bar seats are usually reserved.

If you look for greener pastures compared to Ukraine Belgrade is not the place to be.

Post: #57

I'm not saying BGD is better than ukraine, I can't say that as I've never been to Ukraine. What I am suggesting (and this comes mainly from religiously reading the Ukraine subject forums) is that you will not find Turkish sex tourists, neither will you encounter as much as an influx of women leaving the country for Western Europe or Poland.

I would also suggest rule of law is much better in Serbia, scams are not as prevalent, and living standards are a bit higher, while not being as cold as ukraine (and I mean this both literally and metaphorically with the people you will encounter).

I would agree that serb guys look better than ukrainians, but I had very high value as a foreigner and not once was I asked if I was a sex tourist. People were just like, more geniunelly puzzled that I had found Serbia of all places (esp. when you have Croatia with the beautiful beaches very close).

As far as social circle you are correct, but I have a decent social circle there already. Clubs suck, but bars can actually be pretty good. No one place is going to be perfect, that's obviously impossible. Clubs aren't a good idea anyway, as has already been discussed, b/c serb girls genuinely don't wanna hook up in a ONS.

Post: #58

(03-28-2018 09:05 AM)jcardial Wrote:  I don't know, Belgrade already gets plenty of off the beaten path foreigners visiting it every year for a few days, especially in the warmer months. I don't think a few cheap flights are enough to make it explode as the next Budapest or Prague. The quality of life/sight seeing doesn't seem a fraction as enticing to out compete mainstream spots given that it's not that much cheaper.

I guess it could attract some more young guys trying to pump and dump Serbian girls, but the women already generally require dating and social circle so it's not like currently it's a ONS cakewalk that's about to get ruined. I think quality of life factors like limited health food options, heavy secondhand smoke and very run down aesthetics are the more salient factors likely to keep the tourists and especially digital nomad hipsters at bay for a while, and for good reason.

So basically you have better foresight than multi-billion dollar investment groups that are pumping money into Belgrade.

Do you think these investment decisions are made on a whim?

Post: #59

(03-28-2018 12:56 PM)Dragan Wrote:  I'm not saying BGD is better than Ukraine, I can't say that as I've never been to Ukraine. What I am suggesting (and this comes mainly from religiously reading the Ukraine subject forums) is that you will not find Turkish sex tourists, neither will you encounter as much as an influx of women leaving the country for Western Europe or Poland.

You should not make assumptions based on reading the forum. I also don´t understand what the problem with the Turkish sex tourist is recently here on the forum. They were always there and not just magically appeared out of nowhere. For Kiev as long as you stay a bit away from Kreshatyk street and certain clubs like Carribean u will hardly notice them.

(03-28-2018 12:56 PM)Dragan Wrote:  I would also suggest rule of law is much better in Serbia, scams are not as prevalent, and living standards are a bit higher, while not being as cold as ukraine (and I mean this both literally and metaphorically with the people you will encounter).

Well taxis in Belgrade are notorious scammers. In Ukraine the problem solved itself with Uber. In regards to he coldness I fully agree.

(03-28-2018 12:56 PM)Dragan Wrote:  I would agree that serb guys look better than ukrainians, but I had very high value as a foreigner and not once was I asked if I was a sex tourist. People were just like, more geniunelly puzzled that I had found Serbia of all places (esp. when you have Croatia with the beautiful beaches very close).

I was never asked if I am a sex tourist in Kiev. And last year in Belgrade I almost got beaten up for being a blonde, pale foreigner.

After bumping into your thread over at the game section I think you should seriously give Ukraine a try at least for two weeks. Your chances are way better getting laid than in Belgrade.

I have met plenty of forum guys who stayed in Belgrade and in Kiev and I am yet to meet a single one who had more success in Serbia than in Ukraine.

Belgrade is a fun place and I like it there but if you looking for girls there are better places than the Balkans.

Post: #60

(03-28-2018 06:50 PM)stefpdt Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 09:05 AM)jcardial Wrote:  I don't know, Belgrade already gets plenty of off the beaten path foreigners visiting it every year for a few days, especially in the warmer months. I don't think a few cheap flights are enough to make it explode as the next Budapest or Prague. The quality of life/sight seeing doesn't seem a fraction as enticing to out compete mainstream spots given that it's not that much cheaper.

I guess it could attract some more young guys trying to pump and dump Serbian girls, but the women already generally require dating and social circle so it's not like currently it's a ONS cakewalk that's about to get ruined. I think quality of life factors like limited health food options, heavy secondhand smoke and very run down aesthetics are the more salient factors likely to keep the tourists and especially digital nomad hipsters at bay for a while, and for good reason.

So basically you have better foresight than multi-billion dollar investment groups that are pumping money into Belgrade.

Do you think these investment decisions are made on a whim?

It doesn't prove a whole lot if some hedge funds invest as plenty of funds are making dog shit returns these days. I was responding to "Belgrade will be ruined by the hordes in five years" argument. In theory funds can make a moderately risky long investment in an emerging market like Serbia, but it doesn't translate to "Serbia is going to be booming in a few years."

Post: #61

(03-29-2018 06:26 AM)superschalk Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 12:56 PM)Dragan Wrote:  I'm not saying BGD is better than Ukraine, I can't say that as I've never been to Ukraine. What I am suggesting (and this comes mainly from religiously reading the Ukraine subject forums) is that you will not find Turkish sex tourists, neither will you encounter as much as an influx of women leaving the country for Western Europe or Poland.

You should not make assumptions based on reading the forum. I also don´t understand what the problem with the Turkish sex tourist is recently here on the forum. They were always there and not just magically appeared out of nowhere. For Kiev as long as you stay a bit away from Kreshatyk street and certain clubs like Carribean u will hardly notice them.

(03-28-2018 12:56 PM)Dragan Wrote:  I would also suggest rule of law is much better in Serbia, scams are not as prevalent, and living standards are a bit higher, while not being as cold as ukraine (and I mean this both literally and metaphorically with the people you will encounter).

Well taxis in Belgrade are notorious scammers. In Ukraine the problem solved itself with Uber. In regards to he coldness I fully agree.

(03-28-2018 12:56 PM)Dragan Wrote:  I would agree that serb guys look better than ukrainians, but I had very high value as a foreigner and not once was I asked if I was a sex tourist. People were just like, more geniunelly puzzled that I had found Serbia of all places (esp. when you have Croatia with the beautiful beaches very close).

I was never asked if I am a sex tourist in Kiev. And last year in Belgrade I almost got beaten up for being a blonde, pale foreigner.

After bumping into your thread over at the game section I think you should seriously give Ukraine a try at least for two weeks. Your chances are way better getting laid than in Belgrade.

I have met plenty of forum guys who stayed in Belgrade and in Kiev and I am yet to meet a single one who had more success in Serbia than in Ukraine.

Belgrade is a fun place and I like it there but if you looking for girls there are better places than the Balkans.

Leaving Serbia: In my Serbian social group, almost everyone who has had an opportunity to leave Belgrade for employment abroad has taken it and plenty more seem to be actively seeking it. This is the norm from what I hear even if it's not as extreme as Ukraine. I don't buy the idea that Serbians are super committed to digging in and making their economy work while they are "paid like rats," as my girlfriend phrased it.

Taxis: You can't really hail taxis from the street or outside a club in Belgrade unless it's a reputable company. You have to get the phone number for a company like Pink Taxi and call them directly. When I was pretty new to Belgrade I tried to discreetly film a meter with my phone that was going up faster than the national debt counter and the guy violently swerved off the road, got out and started to walk to my side of the car. I got chased for two blocks by a jacked ex military looking thug who had fortunately skipped leg day one too many times.

Safety: Belgrade generally feels safe but some parks in even Dorcol can be a little dangerous if you encounter a redneck. One time I was sitting at opposite ends of a park bench in Studentski with a foreign friend and a guy approached us asking if we were gay. Long story short when I thought he was gone he came up and super man sucker punched me with in the back of the head. Well played sir.

In general Belgrade feels safe walking around, but there are plenty of meatheads, especially working security in clubs. If you stay in your lane you'll probably be fine, but a minor transgression in the club like throwing a few bar peanuts could get you violently pummeled by a group of jacked bouncers (as happened to my friend).

Post: #62

(03-29-2018 08:18 AM)jcardial Wrote:  Leaving Serbia: In my Serbian social group, almost everyone who has had an opportunity to leave Belgrade for employment abroad has taken it and plenty more seem to be actively seeking it. This is the norm from what I hear even if it's not as extreme as Ukraine. I don't buy the idea that Serbians are super committed to digging in and making their economy work while they are "paid like rats," as my girlfriend phrased it.

Very good points here. Austria alone has 300k imigrants from Serbia. Over 100k are living in Vienna alone. The ones I know have no intention to move back to Serbia. If Serbia will ever join the EU the same will happen like it happens in Bulgaria and Romania. Young educated people will leave and the idiots will stay behind.

(03-29-2018 08:18 AM)jcardial Wrote:  Taxis: You can't really hail taxis from the street or outside a club in Belgrade unless it's a reputable company. You have to get the phone number for a company like Pink Taxi and call them directly. When I was pretty new to Belgrade I tried to discreetly film a meter with my phone that was going up faster than the national debt counter and the guy violently swerved off the road, got out and started to walk to my side of the car. I got chased for two blocks by a jacked ex military looking thug who had fortunately skipped leg day one too many times.

Is Taxify operating in Belgrade? Might be the best option? Or is there any similar app?

(03-29-2018 08:18 AM)jcardial Wrote:  Safety: Belgrade generally feels safe but some parks in even Dorcol can be a little dangerous if you encounter a redneck. One time I was sitting at opposite ends of a park bench in Studentski with a foreign friend and a guy approached us asking if we were gay. Long story short when I thought he was gone he came up and super man sucker punched me with in the back of the head. Well played sir.

In general Belgrade feels safe walking around, but there are plenty of meatheads, especially working security in clubs. If you stay in your lane you'll probably be fine, but a minor transgression in the club like throwing a few bar peanuts could get you violently pummeled by a group of jacked bouncers (as happened to my friend).

As a foreigner who looks like an obvious foreigner like me (blond, very light skin) you need to be really careful. I got headbutted last year when I was leaving a club and that story could have ended really badly. In general - and this happens in Vienna too Serbian guys tend to fight in a big group against one individual. Last summer a black guy got killed on a Greek party island (cant remember which one) by a group of Serbs. Sorry if I am generalizing and 99% of Serbs I met are awesome and nice people but you need to be careful in Serbia if you are looking like a foreigner.

Post: #63

(03-29-2018 07:50 AM)jcardial Wrote:  It doesn't prove a whole lot if some hedge funds invest as plenty of funds are making dog shit returns these days. I was responding to "Belgrade will be ruined by the hordes in five years" argument. In theory funds can make a moderately risky long investment in an emerging market like Serbia, but it doesn't translate to "Serbia is going to be booming in a few years."

You invented this argument in your own mind and started a discussion around it.

I never said that Belgrade would be ruined.

I said that hordes of people will probably take flights into Belgrade once the new flight routes are established.

This isn't even a controversial opinion. There is plenty of data to back this up.

Budget-friendly holiday destination + future European Union access + multi-billion euro investments (mostly catered to the tourism sector) + new flight routes = significant increase in tourism.

This is more of an opportunity than anything else, if you focus on the tourism sector rather than the local Serbian economy.

I don't care about the shitty Serbian economy because the arbitrage opportunity at play involves tourists, not Serbs.

You guys that are spreading FUD in this thread are missing the mark, but that's okay, because I've done my best to explain what will inevitably happen.

Post: #64

I really don't want this thread to turn into trashing Serbia, that literally happened with the Serbia thread on this forum, and a productive discussion was derailed.

People seem to get mad when I compare to Serbia to Ukraine--and I'm not saying the same, because they're not. My perspective is this: when I stayed there I was really lucky, made a great social circle having known exactly zero people when I arrived, I was also interested in Serbian culture (so I have a really positive opinion of it, I do not feel like generally I was ripped off, and I was able to stay very safe. I'm not saying my experience is typical, because maybe it's not--but I walked away with a real positive opinion.

I get it; Ukraine is cheap, and the weather is shit, so it feels like hard work when you get there and people thus feel accomplished because rule of law is horrible and everyone seems to be depressed... I can't take that feeling away from anyone, that's an achievement, but at the end of the day, I myself feel reluctant to travel long term to ukraine to do the whole new person on the block experience again. I really liked Serbia and feel no need to see ukraine, other than for maybe a short vacation.

And in regards to safety, maybe it's just blending in, or starting to think like a native. There were several times where I got frustrated with slavic mentality and just felt like flying home the next day, and I didn't. There were pricks, and that was because people knew I was a foreigner. I didn't get robbed or anything, and avoided a grand total of one (potential) fight. A lot of this stuff is odds, but I can't dispute your experience, because it's your lived experience. And I realize the negative, I started a thread the other day about my bro getting robbed in BGD. But my humble opinion is that belgrade is a bit tamer and safer than ukraine, which you're free to dispute. I had two issues total with the taxis, and this was me not caring much at all: a taxi driver at the airport ripped me off after being jetlagged for basically 30 hours. 2) A taxi driver tried to short me on change, and I made it clear I knew what he was doing, so begrudgingly I got all the change back from him. We all make mistakes, and generally they make us smarter. Yes, you will not find uber in serbia, but some of the things I've heard about that happen in ukraine, give me the chills. I found serbs to be really good people to depend on, once you get over the formalities of meeting them. Apart from impulsive and a bit melodramatic. I do not know if you can say the same about ukraine... This is not a perfect example, but in russia you hear about people being drugged and then left to die in a snowbank, I think the mentality is a bit less fatalistic in SRB.

Post: #65

(03-29-2018 04:14 PM)Dragan Wrote:  I really don't want this thread to turn into trashing Serbia, that literally happened with the Serbia thread on this forum, and a productive discussion was derailed.

Sorry OP, it was not my intention to trash Serbia I just wanted to point out that Serbia is not the holy land as you try to present it, while you making negative assumptions about another country where you have not been to.

Anyways good luck with your project and enjoy Belgrade!

Post: #66

(03-29-2018 01:32 PM)stefpdt Wrote:  

(03-29-2018 07:50 AM)jcardial Wrote:  It doesn't prove a whole lot if some hedge funds invest as plenty of funds are making dog shit returns these days. I was responding to "Belgrade will be ruined by the hordes in five years" argument. In theory funds can make a moderately risky long investment in an emerging market like Serbia, but it doesn't translate to "Serbia is going to be booming in a few years."

You invented this argument in your own mind and started a discussion around it.

I never said that Belgrade would be ruined.

I said that hordes of people will probably take flights into Belgrade once the new flight routes are established.

This isn't even a controversial opinion. There is plenty of data to back this up.

Budget-friendly holiday destination + future European Union access + multi-billion euro investments (mostly catered to the tourism sector) + new flight routes = significant increase in tourism.

This is more of an opportunity than anything else, if you focus on the tourism sector rather than the local Serbian economy.

I don't care about the shitty Serbian economy because the arbitrage opportunity at play involves tourists, not Serbs.

You guys that are spreading FUD in this thread are missing the mark, but that's okay, because I've done my best to explain what will inevitably happen.

You're right, tourism is growing pretty fast in recent years (~20%). I didn't expect that since it doesn't seem like an enticing place to vacation. I'm trying to imagine what the average tourist would do there for more than a couple days.

Relatively speaking the numbers are still pretty small: 190k in its peak month of August vs. Croatia (4m) Spain (10m). It still has room to grow, but without beaches or any really compelling attractions it will be interesting to see if/when it plateaus.

Post: #67

(03-30-2018 08:21 AM)jcardial Wrote:  

(03-29-2018 01:32 PM)stefpdt Wrote:  

(03-29-2018 07:50 AM)jcardial Wrote:  It doesn't prove a whole lot if some hedge funds invest as plenty of funds are making dog shit returns these days. I was responding to "Belgrade will be ruined by the hordes in five years" argument. In theory funds can make a moderately risky long investment in an emerging market like Serbia, but it doesn't translate to "Serbia is going to be booming in a few years."

You invented this argument in your own mind and started a discussion around it.

I never said that Belgrade would be ruined.

I said that hordes of people will probably take flights into Belgrade once the new flight routes are established.

This isn't even a controversial opinion. There is plenty of data to back this up.

Budget-friendly holiday destination + future European Union access + multi-billion euro investments (mostly catered to the tourism sector) + new flight routes = significant increase in tourism.

This is more of an opportunity than anything else, if you focus on the tourism sector rather than the local Serbian economy.

I don't care about the shitty Serbian economy because the arbitrage opportunity at play involves tourists, not Serbs.

You guys that are spreading FUD in this thread are missing the mark, but that's okay, because I've done my best to explain what will inevitably happen.

You're right, tourism is growing pretty fast in recent years (~20%). I didn't expect that since it doesn't seem like an enticing place to vacation. I'm trying to imagine what the average tourist would do there for more than a couple days.

Relatively speaking the numbers are still pretty small: 190k in its peak month of August vs. Croatia (4m) Spain (10m). It still has room to grow, but without beaches or any really compelling attractions it will be interesting to see if/when it plateaus.

I think it'd be great for eco/agro tourism or club tourism for a quick weekend (like Berlin).

Post: #68

Update: will be in Belgrade starting April 21.

Post: #69

(04-08-2018 04:48 PM)Dragan Wrote:  Update: will be in Belgrade starting April 21.

I'm down.

Post: #70

I posted this already on a few threads, don't know if anyone saw it, but I will be in Sofia, Bulgaria 19-22 or so of april if anyone is around.

Post: #71

How is belgrade in august?

Post: #72

(04-16-2018 03:16 PM)exitus Wrote:  How is belgrade in august?

Europe is kinda dead outside of island/beach destinations in August

Post: #73

I'm in Belgrade guys feel free to PM me.

Post: #74

Uzivas bre !!

Post: #75

I'm going to log my time here in Belgrade from time-to-time, both general stuff and women.

So here's the first update:

Day 1: Made it to Belgrade on the bus from Sofia. Man are the Balkans dependent on buses. Two of the buses I rode were covered in rust and looked like they would fall apart at any minute. At one point the engine on the bus stalled, and I thought we would never get to Belgrade... Also chatted a bit with a beautiful Serbian girl in sportswear on the bus, but was having difficulty forming sentences from a hangover. Props to her for chatting with me. Anyway finally made it, and friends and I being cheap, made the 20 minute walk back to our neighborhood. Weather is incredible for this time of year, and I wish I had gotten here a week or two ago; it's that nice. Elevator was broken, so up I went the stairs (too many flights to count) with 20 kilos of my luggage. I got to my place, and my bro's mom had cooked us her homemade burek recipe. Balkan/ Serbian mothers are the best in my opinion. Another thing to note is that women prepare the food and clean the table! Sometimes they also refrain from eating.

Day 2: I was still hungover from Sofia so I watched some soccer. Had to go to the police station to register, and they were dicks telling us we can't come in because we're wearing shorts. Dumbest customer service from government employees here. Had to go back later to get the registration done. Unnecessary bureaucratic hurdle, but if it keeps out tourists, I'm all in favor of it. Sat in the park and smoked some cigs, and watched all the beautiful women pass by. Friends and I were literally staring at any hot girl walking by, giving a play by play, damn do I love the political incorrectness here. It's not just young dudes shamelessly checking out women, it's also old dudes as well.

Day 3: Woke up feeling awesome, and got some pretty important work done. Cleaned my room as Jordan Peterson advised, felt even better. Set out on a walk with my friends, and got an impromptu Serbian lesson along the way. They concluded I have issue with pronouncing certain letters because of my American accent. We rode the bus for an errand, and the damn thing was packed during rush hour, people will literally ride the bus for two stops if it saves them just two minutes. No ticket purchased as always... Later went for some Serbian food and beer with my bros, and enjoyed the slow waitstaff. We were seated next to Anglos and I think they were all gay. I'd never encountered Angolos at this joint in particular... I think they worked in NGOs/ Foreign Service, or were spies under official cover. It stuck me as odd that they had some knowledge of Serbian language. I had a conversation with my friends about the grand bargain that serbia will have to make, to improve living standards and decrease corruption, they will have to allow gays and transgenders to gyrate in the street with young children watching, also will have to teach this stuff in school in the name of human rights. At least my friends know what's in store. Enjoy the decline as they say.

Serbian women are looking great. Yoga pants, not so common at all. Lots of chicks wearing adidas trainers. These girls have a lot more brown hair, or dyed blonde hair than the girls in Bulgaria. I also think they're at least a point more attractive. I am starting to notice how many are boyfriended up, and just how many gravitate to the most alpha or senior guy, even if they are getting some extra practice in with a sideguy.