Post: #1

Got something to say about reincarnation or you have a question about this topic - Let's dicuss it here!

Right now I'm reading a book from Anthony Robbins and there is a small text passage which got me thinking. He talks about cultures that have developed a global faith principle, all things submit to each other correctly, respectively they go along the right way. For example, people who have to hunger right now receive an inestimable value lesson for their next reincarnation.

Nobody knows if this is true or not, if reincarnation is a serious issue or not.

Let's assume reincarnation exists - Does than the reincarnation-cycle always develop in one direction, to the better or might it be an arbitrary process. With regard to the starving people, will they have a better life after they passed away, because they learned an inestimable value lesson beforehand?

I came to a question or rather a little thought experiment. When there exists a 100% evidence that reincarnation is a serious issue and people would not know about their previous life(s), would you than rather be more afraid of dying per se or the nescience of your next life after the reincarnation?

Something in me believes in the process of reincarnation and, I for myself, also believe that I can determine the outcome of my reincarnation. For example, when I do mostly great things to the nature and society, than it will affect the outcome positive and vice versa.

And I would be more afraid of the fact of not knowing which life I will receive after the reincarnation. I can't say why exactly, but there is something which makes me uncomfortable.

Post: #2

Interesting thread choice.

I'm Indian American and grew up in a pretty traditional/conservative Hindu family. So, not surprisingly, I've been taught the various facets of our culture (such as reincarnation) since childhood.

This concept which is a defining feature of many Eastern cultures definitely may not be an easy idea for a Westerner to get their mind around. If you truly are interested in it I would recommend you to read an English translation of the Bhagavad Gita (The Song of God) which as you might know is one of the defining holy books of Hinduism.

If you don't want to spend time reading through every single chapter and verse at least read a summary. This (https://www.iskconbooks.com/Chapter-wise...It-Is.aspx) is a good one, with some pretty interesting illustrations too. Though if you really are interested, I would still encourage you to read through the entire text which can be found here (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/chapter-01.html). Definitely a lot of wisdom and ideas to ponder.

In it, you'll understand what the concept of karma (action) and dharma (moral duty) is and how it ties into the idea of reincarnation.

Of course this is just a start and I don't want to get too preachy or anything so I'll just leave you with that. If you or anyone else is interested and would like to know more, feel free to ask me questions on here or through PM.

Post: #3

The pagan tradition makes the most sense to me. In essence:

"No one has been shown to remember past lives/souls pass through the sun and are cleaned. As we can't identify who was who we have children coming of age enter the burial mound and claim an ancestor/tribesman. That person becomes a role-model and their valuables are given new use. Naturally children compete over who is worthy of claiming the soul of the most honored. Dishonorable people are unclaimed and hence did not reincarnate. Because we reincarnate among our people we suffer even after death for our betrayals."

In short, it's not going to be understood so something good for society may as well be made from it. Personally I'd say it's likely to pass through blood, souls would again inhabit bodies of similar personality/traits. Plus I like how the Pagan ways preach karma without relying on the supernatural or a concept or 'balance.'

Post: #4

This is a good book on the subject of children aged 2 to 7 remembering and talking about details of their past life and birthmarks possibly being signs of a violent death in a previous life:


From wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Before_Life

Quote:Life Before Life:
A Scientific Investigation of Children's Memories of Previous Lives

is a 2005 book written by psychiatrist Jim B. Tucker, which presents an overview of more than 40 years of reincarnation research at the University of Virginia, into children's reports of past-life memories.[1][2] The book also discusses "birthmarks and birth defects that match those of a deceased person who is identified by the child".[3] The foreword to the book is written by Ian Stevenson.[4]:256

This book claims that consciousness can be considered separately from the brain, which provides a basis for claims of reincarnation.[3] Tucker discusses objections to reincarnation: the paucity of persons who actually claim to remember a past life, the fragility of memories, the population explosion, the mind—body problem, fraud, and others. Tucker states that none of the cases examined are perfect, and that "faulty memory by informants" is seen to be the "best normal explanation for many of the cases" reviewed in the book.[4]:205–9 The version of reincarnation discussed is typically incompatible with common religious beliefs around reincarnation, specifically in relation to karma.[5]

Post: #5

Afterlife with permanent heaven and hell has never made sense to me, despite being raised in Christian tradition. I am pretty sure there exists some sort of Reincarnation mechanism.

Argument 1: Under Christian model the souls of Children who get aborted or die in first days of their life before Baptism should go either to Heaven or Hell. If they go to Hell due to original sin it is unfair to them as God denied them this mercy. If they go straight to heaven it is unfair to all the rest of people living longer lives who get to spend some much more years in temptations of this world that can condemn them to Hell. A fair God would not decide a person eternal fate based on just one lifetime that can be brief and/or spent without a chance to choose good over evil due to lack of knowledge / propaganda of evil and similar circumstances.


Argument 2: If you are a person on a serious spiritual journey with aim to perfect yourself you soon realize that a single lifetime of human being is not enough to reach perfection - for proper development multiple lifetimes are required. Those who are one this path will understand what I am talking about. A just God would not leave people eternally on the level of sanctity they could achieve in a single life considering that various people have different starting points as some are born with better temperaments and better parents and even better intelligence then others.

Argument 3: The more I learn the more I discover that almost all the traditional religions of the world believe in reincarnation. The only ones who renounce it are Christianity and Islam whch are both reletively new and relatively artificial. Christians destroyed many native religions when Christianity spread in middle ages and later when some Christian authors tried to research about the beliefs and tried to reconstruct the beliefs of the old people - they reconstructed these old faiths in Christian centered way interpreting their afterlife beliefs as similar to heir own although in reality they speak about reincarnation. Basically before the Borg of Christianity came and swept the world blank - a belief in reincarnation was the norm around the world rather then an exception.

Two surprising examples of argument 3:
1)Most people including many Jews themselves believe that Judaism being the parent of Christianity and Islam believes in a fixed afterlife as well. Well it is wrong. While most of Judaism only talk s about observance of laws and doesn't touch the subject of afterlife at all - the mystical part of Judaism that is called Kaballah today actually teaches reincarnation. There are clear examples of belief in reincarnation in Bible as well for instance Matthew 16:14 - When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He questioned His disciples: “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” Shows clearly that Jews believed in reincarnation.

2)Christian re-constructors of Norse and Germanic and Baltic and Slavic paganism always interpreted that souls go to the pagan version of heaven (Valhalla for Norse or other name for others) or pagan version of hell. Well actually ancient European pagans believed in reincarnation as all Indo-Europeans did. If you want to hear a more proper explanation about how Valhalla and other European pagan afterlife concepts are to be interpreted then I recommend the blog of Vark Vikirnes: Thulean Perspective. There are many more people on net who can explain this in Russian too.









Also many ancient greeks including prominent philosopher like Plato and Pythagoras believed in reincarnation. So unlike many people think reincarnation is not an exceptionally Hindu and Buddhist concept it is actually a global concept that is much more wider then permanent afterlife.

There seems to be many cultures around the world about whum we classically believe that they believe in fixed afterlife, but the more we study them without Christian prejudice the more Reincarnation starts to creep in.

Post: #6

It's true that most religions believed in reincarnation. In occult literature it seems to be the also the case.
Now whether reincarnation a good thing I'm still wondering.
I have read many theories where people astrally projected and saw that we are living on an artificial prison planet.
According to them after you die, you see the bright light that is being mentioned in many beliefs. Actually it's a trap after which the ruler entities (who placed men here to farm their negative energies) wipe your memory. Then your soul is sent back here for another round.

Definitely makes my head spin. Not sure what to believe anymore.

Post: #7

When someone realizes that the way we experience things right now (we are a person born in a specific time, place, and as a genetic result of our parents) as a historicity, it makes us understand why things like reincarnation are so far beyond the pale (of thinking?). Now, I'm not saying it's a necessary part of reality that things aren't like that (in the ultimate sense) but it does make things like reincarnation clearly far more fantastical thinking. Absorbing all individuality doesn't seem like it is necessary since our reality is already a paradox of person among group, of human among divine, etc. This is why I find the explanation (even without more details) of Christianity far more compelling and convincing.

And no, you don't "go to Heaven/Hell" as far as [true] christian teaching goes. They are realities, but not physical places in the way you think about physical places (or someone "throwing you" or placing you there, for example).

Post: #8

(03-27-2018 06:13 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  When someone realizes that the way we experience things right now (we are a person born in a specific time, place, and as a genetic result of our parents) as a historicity, it makes us understand why things like reincarnation are so far beyond the pale (of thinking?). Now, I'm not saying it's a necessary part of reality that things aren't like that (in the ultimate sense) but it does make things like reincarnation clearly far more fantastical thinking. Absorbing all individuality doesn't seem like it is necessary since our reality is already a paradox of person among group, of human among divine, etc. This is why I find the explanation (even without more details) of Christianity far more compelling and convincing.

And no, you don't "go to Heaven/Hell" as far as [true] christian teaching goes. They are realities, but not physical places in the way you think about physical places (or someone "throwing you" or placing you there, for example).

In this post you tried to say that Heaven/Hell model is more plausible because Heaven/Hell is likely diferent from the implausible sterotypical model what most people imagine it.

The same can be said about Reincarnation. I have found out that Christians and other people who deny possibility of Reincarnation very eagerly are people who have a caricature like view about what reincarnation is like.

In your case you assume Reincarnation is about accumulation of individuality and deny it because of too many things about a person are certainly defined by their genetics and upbringing of the present life. But in the way I understand Reincarnation it exists precisely so that we would lose the burden of our individuality from time to time and it would not iterfere with our development. For example as red pilled individuals we know that no amount of confession and Jesus accepting can truly reform a woman from a hoe and slut into a virgin and faithful wife. As a person ages his fluidity to change his self decreases rapidly and few people are able to seriosuly change their worldview, habits and behavior after age of 30. At this point our personality and experiances becomes a baggage in our path to holiness and perfection. Death, amnesia about our previous lives and rebirth exists precisely so that we could move on without being tainted eternally with sins and their consequences that are inerasable by aything but death. Under permaanent Heaven/Hell model a person remains an aborted baby or a former slut or a former murderer or someone who has experianced life as a handicapped person for all eternity. Only with reincarnation can a soul have both experianced all these lessons and and remained unattached to any one of them particularly at the same time.

This is the same across most spiritual queastions. Most atheists and denyers are people who disbelieve not because lack of evidence but because they have a warped and implistic idea about the concept.

I the correct model I foun most plausible there is both Reincarnation and Heaven/Hell. As you mentioned Heaven/Hell are stages of soul and not physical places. I think they are temporary stages that determine the souls need and quality of next incarnation.

Post: #9

(03-28-2018 01:28 AM)Mage Wrote:  [quote='Kid Twist' pid='1757810' dateline='1522192410']

that are inerasable by aything but death. .

I have read death cannot erase it, and you will have to pay for it in future incarnations, if you didn't pay in this one.

Post: #10

I heard an interesting take on reincarnation from a Christian minister. He was one of those people who had a near death experience, and got to talk to Jesus in his experience, and came to believe that reincarnation made no sense for a reason that most of us wouldn't even ever think about.

He also gives a credible explanation for why people sometimes feel they have lived other lives, even down to having specific memories.

He expounds on that in this video from 11:44 – 16:16.






The basic problem with reincarnation is that we can't see past our own planet, and our own over simplified way of looking at things, in his opinion.

Post: #11

(03-28-2018 01:28 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(03-27-2018 06:13 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  When someone realizes that the way we experience things right now (we are a person born in a specific time, place, and as a genetic result of our parents) as a historicity, it makes us understand why things like reincarnation are so far beyond the pale (of thinking?). Now, I'm not saying it's a necessary part of reality that things aren't like that (in the ultimate sense) but it does make things like reincarnation clearly far more fantastical thinking. Absorbing all individuality doesn't seem like it is necessary since our reality is already a paradox of person among group, of human among divine, etc. This is why I find the explanation (even without more details) of Christianity far more compelling and convincing.

And no, you don't "go to Heaven/Hell" as far as [true] christian teaching goes. They are realities, but not physical places in the way you think about physical places (or someone "throwing you" or placing you there, for example).

In your case you assume Reincarnation is about accumulation of individuality and deny it because of too many things about a person are certainly defined by their genetics and upbringing of the present life.

No I don't.

Quote:For example as red pilled individuals we know that no amount of confession and Jesus accepting can truly reform a woman from a hoe and slut into a virgin and faithful wife.

That is not accurate. It may be unlikely and not advisable to marry such a woman, but so is smoking a cigarette for the person who may get addicted (but not all do).

Quote:As a person ages his fluidity to change his self decreases rapidly and few people are able to seriosuly change their worldview, habits and behavior after age of 30.

You do a better job here finally of talking in likelihood or probability terms. I agree few people change dramatically, but we know numerous who do.

Quote:At this point our personality and experiances becomes a baggage in our path to holiness and perfection. Death, amnesia about our previous lives and rebirth exists precisely so that we could move on without being tainted eternally with sins and their consequences that are inerasable by aything but death.

We can move on all the time, however we are forever tainted in a created world, however, because of the tendency to sin. Realizing this doesn't hold me or others back, with the correct understanding.

Quote:Under permaanent Heaven/Hell model a person remains an aborted baby or a former slut or a former murderer or someone who has experianced life as a handicapped person for all eternity. Only with reincarnation can a soul have both experianced all these lessons and and remained unattached to any one of them particularly at the same time.

I get that this is probably the most attractive part of your reincarnation fixation, but one thing that we know for sure is that we are who we are (for at least now). I know of no one that thinks or experiences past lives. I also do not claim that someone is "forever" a certain way --- this I do not know.

I think your beliefs on what I take "Heaven" or "Hell" to be are far more inaccurate. We probably see things alike in many ways, I'm guessing, I just don't like pure speculation as opposed to positive facts or evidence towards a theory.

Post: #12

dupe

Post: #13

(03-28-2018 12:07 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  I heard an interesting take on reincarnation from a Christian minister. He was one of those people who had a near death experience, and got to talk to Jesus in his experience, and came to believe that reincarnation made no sense for a reason that most of us wouldn't even ever think about.

He also gives a credible explanation for why people sometimes feel they have lived other lives, even down to having specific memories.

He expounds on that in this video from 11:44 – 16:16.






The basic problem with reincarnation is that we can't see past our own planet, and our own over simplified way of looking at things, in his opinion.

This man is talking about reincarnation to other planets just like many Hindus and Yogis do. He is just avoiding to call it reincarnation because that word has a non-Christian association and he is trying to promote Christianity.
He might rally have seen Jesus trough. That Jesus might have been:
a) Really Jesus - because Jesus himself never denied reincarnation and incarnation to other planets - that was done by Church fathers later.
b) The Atman (the man's higher self) - manifesting in a way that was acceptable for this man to see it because of his cultural influances living in a Christian culture.

(03-28-2018 03:37 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 01:28 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(03-27-2018 06:13 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  When someone realizes that the way we experience things right now (we are a person born in a specific time, place, and as a genetic result of our parents) as a historicity, it makes us understand why things like reincarnation are so far beyond the pale (of thinking?). Now, I'm not saying it's a necessary part of reality that things aren't like that (in the ultimate sense) but it does make things like reincarnation clearly far more fantastical thinking. Absorbing all individuality doesn't seem like it is necessary since our reality is already a paradox of person among group, of human among divine, etc. This is why I find the explanation (even without more details) of Christianity far more compelling and convincing.

And no, you don't "go to Heaven/Hell" as far as [true] christian teaching goes. They are realities, but not physical places in the way you think about physical places (or someone "throwing you" or placing you there, for example).

In your case you assume Reincarnation is about accumulation of individuality and deny it because of too many things about a person are certainly defined by their genetics and upbringing of the present life.

No I don't.

Hmm.. certainly seemed like you implied just such a thing

(03-28-2018 03:37 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

Quote:For example as red pilled individuals we know that no amount of confession and Jesus accepting can truly reform a woman from a hoe and slut into a virgin and faithful wife.

That is not accurate. It may be unlikely and not advisable to marry such a woman, but so is smoking a cigarette for the person who may get addicted (but not all do).

The probability of a hoe turning into a housewife is about 0%. Maybe 1%. There are no official statistics but that is what we can observe as red pilled individuals. The success rate for addicted smokers to quit is about 3%. There are official statistics on that. So as you can see a human personality is very rigid. Chances are the person who's big battle in life was quitting smoking or losing weight or stopping slutting around will be busy enough with that to remain in default mode at other aspects in life. yet there are like a million of aspects how a person can better himself. Impossible to hit them all in one lifetime.

(03-28-2018 03:37 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

Quote:As a person ages his fluidity to change his self decreases rapidly and few people are able to seriosuly change their worldview, habits and behavior after age of 30.

You do a better job here finally of talking in likelihood or probability terms. I agree few people change dramatically, but we know numerous who do.

Even those few people who make dramatic changes in their life can make only one or two dramatic changes in their life. Someone quits drugs, someone else loses weight, someone else stops pedestrianizing women, someone else finds God, someone switches one religion to another, someone else becomes environment friendly. Many ways to improve I cannot even mention because our society doesn't even understand and realize them yet. Most people are born with some flaws that they must correct in their lifetime, then they can be reborn without those flaws in the next lifetime to correct something else.

(03-28-2018 03:37 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

Quote:At this point our personality and experiances becomes a baggage in our path to holiness and perfection. Death, amnesia about our previous lives and rebirth exists precisely so that we could move on without being tainted eternally with sins and their consequences that are inerasable by aything but death.

We can move on all the time, however we are forever tainted in a created world, however, because of the tendency to sin. Realizing this doesn't hold me or others back, with the correct understanding.

That is such a blue pill to say. Let say a woman has understood that she was wrong about slutting around. Is she getting back her virginity for that? Of course not. She is damaged goods and will remain damaged goods as long as she exists is this tainted body. A hounourable thing for her to do would be to spend the rest of her life celibate. Are Christian women honourable enough to do so? No - they will try to cheat a good man in marriage with them. That is all a consequence of thinking that Jesus has defeated death and can lift off your deadly sins while you are still alive. The truth is that deadly sins can be fully paid off only with death and either necessary karma in the next life or atonement in this life. But death is necessary. And it is not a bad thing - death is a true liberator. All ancient cultures understood that - therefore samurai committed seppuku for losing honor - doing something that cannot be washed away in this life. Therefore ancient vikings could go berserk and fight without fear for their life. Therefore ancient Celtic women would kill themselves and their children once their men were defeated - it was better then dishonour of being raped and sold as slaves. It's better to die free and be born as a free person again rather then losing honour and living as a slave then dying anyway and being reborn into slavery again due to the karma of the choice to choose slavery over death and rebirth. Our culture doesn't believe in honour - therefore we are becoming more and more a victim culture. The only way to destroy victim culture is by recognizing honour as a virtue above the current tainted life. And to do that one must believe in reincarnation. If you think you have only one life - you will make compromises with your honour until you lose it as a value with time slowly but surely. Guaranteed.

(03-28-2018 03:37 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

Quote:Under permaanent Heaven/Hell model a person remains an aborted baby or a former slut or a former murderer or someone who has experianced life as a handicapped person for all eternity. Only with reincarnation can a soul have both experianced all these lessons and and remained unattached to any one of them particularly at the same time.

I get that this is probably the most attractive part of your reincarnation fixation, but one thing that we know for sure is that we are who we are (for at least now). I know of no one that thinks or experiences past lives. I also do not claim that someone is "forever" a certain way --- this I do not know.

We are not supposed to remember our previous lives while we are incarnated - it may cause great harm. Only very holy people can do that - those who are ready to end the cycle. Then they can go to "Heaven". But it is not like Christian Heaven. Apparently even gods can choose to leave heavens and incarnate again. In Christianity once the souls pass tough this Earth there will come the end of this world and only heaven with the righteous and the hell with sinners will remain. In paganism the universe is eternal with all the many heavenly and hellish planets and those planets in between to incarnate in between, back and forth eternally.

(03-28-2018 03:37 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  I think your beliefs on what I take "Heaven" or "Hell" to be are far more inaccurate. We probably see things alike in many ways, I'm guessing, I just don't like pure speculation as opposed to positive facts or evidence towards a theory.

For me this is not merely speculation but also my belief and inner feeling and the result of experiences in my life. I just cannot get that over internet post so what I am sharing is my rational models explaining that. of course I might be wrong. There is not really anything that we can scientifically call evidence when talking about afterlife anyway - so you must go with your heart and intuition on this.

Post: #14

(03-28-2018 06:06 PM)Mage Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 12:07 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  I heard an interesting take on reincarnation from a Christian minister. He was one of those people who had a near death experience, and got to talk to Jesus in his experience, and came to believe that reincarnation made no sense for a reason that most of us wouldn't even ever think about.

He also gives a credible explanation for why people sometimes feel they have lived other lives, even down to having specific memories.

He expounds on that in this video from 11:44 – 16:16.






The basic problem with reincarnation is that we can't see past our own planet, and our own over simplified way of looking at things, in his opinion.

This man is talking about reincarnation to other planets just like many Hindus and Yogis do. He is just avoiding to call it reincarnation because that word has a non-Christian association and he is trying to promote Christianity.
He might rally have seen Jesus trough. That Jesus might have been:
a) Really Jesus - because Jesus himself never denied reincarnation and incarnation to other planets - that was done by Church fathers later.
b) The Atman (the man's higher self) - manifesting in a way that was acceptable for this man to see it because of his cultural influances living in a Christian culture.

Mage, you are incorrect about Howard Storm. He is not trying to avoid anything. In fact in general, the opposite is true. People want to believe in reincarnation and avoid talking about Christianity.

Psychologically, this is understandable. People don't want to think they get one life on earth and everything they do counts. They want to believe that they have endless do-overs.

Howard Storm, if you ever listen to any of his full interviews, used to be an atheist, had a near death experience, and believes he met Jesus. He loves Jesus, the person of Jesus. He is a Christian because of the impact the person of Jesus had on him.

You can doubt whether or not he met Jesus, but that is what he claims, simply that he met Jesus, asked every question he could think of, and is simply reporting what he heard and saw. He gets in trouble with Christians (for saying that Jesus told him there is plenty of life in the universe) and New Agers (for denying reincarnation back to lives on this planet).

He doesn't lay claim to having a higher personal understanding on his own, but merely to have had a conversation with Jesus. He has said on many occasions that he is just reporting what he heard, and if you don't like it, take it up with Jesus.

He promotes, if you can call it that, Christianity not because it is how he was raised or because that is his prejudice, he promotes it because he believes he met Jesus, and he really likes Jesus who, he believes, really likes him as well.

This is in concert with the NT where Jesus very often says to follow him, not follow the law, but follow him.

Storm really has no dog in this fight. He is just trying to report what he saw and understand what it means.

His point about heaven is that it is fun and there is endless things to do and endless places to explore. That's it. That it's not boring.

All of this theorizing and wrangling over definitions is inimical to true spirituality, which is about love, and loving God and each other.

Worrying about how many lives you live on this planet or other planets is a dry and dusty endeavor compared to what this whole thing is supposed to be about.

Before you can even talk about a subject like reincarnation, you have to be willing to look at it's deeper spiritual significance to the individual, as in, why is it so important to this person to believe in it, and important to another to believe just in heaven and hell, and important to another to believe in purgatory too?

This is where the rubber hits the road as far as spirituality goes. Why does this individual need to believe certain things? Does it come from his own fears and limitations, or is it a truly valid interpretation of the world?

And when I say, *this individual,* I mean you. Don't worry about psychoanalyzing some dude from a Youtube video in order to dismiss him. Ask yourself why it is so important to you to believe reincarnation is real, and ask yourself where that comes from. In other words, psychoanalyze yourself instead.

That will benefit you far better than dismissing everyone else as biased and overly influenced by their culture.

Do you really believe in reincarnation in a completely rational and objective way, or does the Christian doctrine of one life on this earth seem too onerous, and you would prefer to believe in endless do-overs?

Anyway, the main reason I posted that video was because I think the best argument for reincarnation is when people have memories of past lives, and Storm's explanation, that we can have access sometimes to other people's experiences, is a new one to me, and one that also accounts for this phenomenon without defaulting to reincarnation.

Post: #15

(03-29-2018 12:18 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  Anyway, the main reason I posted that video was because I think the best argument for reincarnation is when people have memories of past lives, and Storm's explanation, that we can have access sometimes to other people's experiences, is a new one to me, and one that also accounts for this phenomenon without defaulting to reincarnation.

Storm's reasoning does not explain or take into account why many small children aged 2 to 6 have very detailed memories of past lives which they forget forever after starting school, and why some of these same children even have birthmarks in the same exact place the previous person took the fatal blow that killed them.

The book I linked to above is an examination of evidence soley in small children who have no financial incentive or religious agenda or to lie or mislead with memories of a past life. The book does not claim that reincaration is real....but it presents the evidence in thousands of different small children as it stands. Where possible, the author tried to track down the family of the deceased to verify claims made by the various children.


Here's a video where he talks about his investigation of children's claims and gives many examples of the birthmark phenomenon.

Post: #16

In Tibetan Buddhism, the new Dalai Lama (a child somewhere between age 2 to 9 I think) is only chosen after passing many different verification tests. In one of these tests, many similiar items of a certain type will be laid out in front of the child while he is away from his parents...like 10 different eating bowls, or 10 different pairs of eyeglasses, (and other very private personal items from the previous Dalai Lama) and the child must chose the correct item each time to qualify as the true reincarnation.

Post: #17

(03-29-2018 12:31 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  

(03-29-2018 12:18 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  Anyway, the main reason I posted that video was because I think the best argument for reincarnation is when people have memories of past lives, and Storm's explanation, that we can have access sometimes to other people's experiences, is a new one to me, and one that also accounts for this phenomenon without defaulting to reincarnation.

Storm's reasoning does not explain or take into account why many small children aged 2 to 6 have very detailed memories of past lives which they forget forever after starting school, and why some of these same children even have birthmarks in the same exact place the previous person took the fatal blow that killed them.

Yes it does. His explanation covers that. We sometimes have a connection, psychic, to another person's life. How old you are or how long you remember it don't change this explanation.

You got me on the birthmarks though.

Post: #18

(03-29-2018 01:01 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  Yes it does. His explanation covers that. We sometimes have a connection, psychic, to another person's life. How old you are or how long you remember it don't change this explanation.

Such an ability would be either useless, counterproductive, or actually quite dangerous to a small child, especially if they start rejecting their current parents and insist they want to go back to their "previous" family and relatives....which quite a significant number of "reincarnated" children apprently do.

From a traditional Christian viewpoint, such a situation in a small child would be seen as a sign of demonic possesion or some kind of punishment or curse from the devil...not a gift from Jesus.


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Post: #19

(03-29-2018 01:19 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  

(03-29-2018 01:01 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  Yes it does. His explanation covers that. We sometimes have a connection, psychic, to another person's life. How old you are or how long you remember it don't change this explanation.

Such an ability would be either useless, counterproductive, or actually quite dangerous to a small child, especially if they start rejecting their current parents and insist they want to go back to their "previous" family and relatives....which quite a significant number of "reincarnated" children apprently do.

From a traditional Christian viewpoint, such a situation in a small child would be seen as a sign of demonic possesion or some kind of punishment or curse from the devil...not a gift from Jesus.


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I see your point. It could just be a test for the parents though. Something along the lines of learning to love your kids no matter what, and being patient etc..

Post: #20

debeguiled


Please read my last post carefully. You wrote a lengthily answer to it but most of what you wrote is answered there already. I don''t feel like repeating myself.

Christians are wrong to think people believe reincarnation because they want do-overs and escape responsibility. I have heard this dull argument too many times before. Maybe some new-ager think like that but that is wrong understanding about reincarnation.

In fact in reincarnation the responsibility for your life is even greater because you are already living in eternity! Your every choice determines the direction you are moving immediately, not just after death.

This guy who's video you posted clearly states he believes in future lives on other planets. That is called Reincarnation. When you refute Reincarnation you assume that Reincarnation is something limited to this planet, but most people who believe in it don't think so anyway. This guy said nothing new when he said that a we continue our development on other planets after that.

Maybe there is some type of belief in reincarnation among new agers that Reincarnation means having no worries about your afterlife and Christians like to point out unseriosness of that. In reality Reincarnation is a serious thing. It makes you understand that your actions determine your fate every second.

Did you know that both Kaballah and Paganism teaches that it is only the spiritual part of the humans that reincarnate? Everything that is material dies. This means that if you are a full materialist with no spiritual aspirations you just die. There is nothing to reincarnate. You must have some desire for spiritual life and godliness to reincarnate, if all your desires are of this world then you die in this world. That is a very serious thing. You must think above material level constantly. You must be loving and altruistic constantly. Under Christianity it is enough to merely not sin to be saved. That is not how it is. You must aspire forward or you might truly cease existing. More precisely - you just won't start existing after death. If you don't exist in spiritual dimension now, you won't start existing in spiritual dimension after death. It is very serious. It is more scary than Hell. You can be a living dead already. Your body may be alive, but soul may be dead buried under material delights and worries. There are spiritually dead people all around you with no future after death. it is all very serious and grim for a materialist. For a spiritualist it gives great freedom trough.

Anyway why do you have such a big faith in this guy? After all what he says is uncommon from both Christian and Pagan perspective. There have been Christian saints who confirm that there is indeed Hell with horrible torments. Why don''t you believe them? There are other people who say they remember past lives. Why don't you believe them? Why have you picked exactly this guy as the guy who's story you trust?

This guy speaks truth about loving other people and about how love is different for each person and depends on situation and sometimes best love is harsh love. But this is all well known already from all spiritual traditions. It really doesn't matter in this context what awaits us after death - our task to love doesn't change because of that.

Post: #21

Mage

You are completely missing the point of what I wrote.

You had two major criticisms of Howard Storm, both basically ad hominem arguments. I refuted those.

I would say that you need to reread what I wrote, because you aren't addressing it, which you don't have to by the way, but if you say that is what you are doing, you should do it.

Particularly read the last paragraph, so you won't give me a lecture on why I should not be trusting Storm over other people. If you had ever listened to his entire near death experience, you would know that some of the criticisms you made are flat out false.

Quote:Anyway why do you have such a big faith in this guy? After all what he says is uncommon from both Christian and Pagan perspective. There have been Christian saints who confirm that there is indeed Hell with horrible torments. Why don''t you believe them?

Storm went to hell and suffered there in his experience until he was lifted out of there by Jesus. See?

I am happy not to argue with you, though if we are going to discuss this, unlike you, I don't mind repeating myself. Plus I can just use the copy/paste function.

Quote:Anyway, the main reason I posted that video was because I think the best argument for reincarnation is when people have memories of past lives, and Storm's explanation, that we can have access sometimes to other people's experiences, is a new one to me, and one that also accounts for this phenomenon without defaulting to reincarnation.

See there? I thought that he had a novel explanation for people having memories of lives not their own, and put it into the mix to widen the discussion.

Also, I do still think that each person needs to be honest with themselves, at least somewhat introspective, and ask themselves why they personally prefer one metaphysical explanation over another. This seems to be a good use of this thread, and the direction to finding deeper spiritual reason for things.

This is a much better use of our time than debating in a fake objective manner.

As for your question about why I believe this guy and not others. I haven't said that I do. I haven't even said what I really believe about all this yet.

I was putting his explanation for memories of other lives out there as a way to broaden the scope of this conversation, which I think has value on its own.

And it has worked pretty well. I got a good answer from you, and a couple of good responses from Merc, whose video I am going to watch when I have time, and who has got me stumped with the birthmark, something I don't mind admitting.

Post: #22

(03-29-2018 06:08 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  Also, I do still think that each person needs to be honest with themselves, at least somewhat introspective, and ask themselves why they personally prefer one metaphysical explanation over another. This seems to be a good use of this thread, and the direction to finding deeper spiritual reason for things.
me stumped with the birthmark, something I don't mind admitting.

It is true that we need to be introspective.

I just don't agree with the common Christian argument that whoever believes in Reincarnation must do so because they are lazy in this life and hope for a do-over in next life. This argument may be true for those who believe in Reincarnation on the level of believing in magazine astrology.

I personally believe in reincarnation because I believe in honor as a value and I already explained why honor requires reincarnation. I also have great perspective on limits oh spiritual development and observe that almost no person comes even close to it in single lifetime. So I believe we continue our development in afterlife, instead of dwelling in already perfect heaven. But for development the environment must have some imperfection to overcome so it could either be here on Earth again or other planets, perhaps more perfect but not absolute Heaven still.

In Latvia we have a humorous expression "He who sleeps doesn't sin". I might use it to try to find personal faults in Christians an believers in Heaven, just like you and Christians try to find faults in those who believe in Reincarnation. I can argue that a belief in Heaven requires passivity and avoidance of action to avoid sinning. It could be argued that permanent and binary system of Heaven of Hell dwells on people's fear and is a slave morality to make people be content with their lot, avoid responsibility for the corrupt situation on earth and just hope for Heaven where they will be rewarded for their non-sinning inactivity and suffering here on earth.

The belief in reincarnation however requires one to take action in betterment of environment of Earth because you are likely to return here for a long time, so it does matter what changes do you make in the world, you cannot shut in and try to escape the world passively. I could argue that many people who are afraid of challenges in this world want to believe that after death they leave here forever, they just have to endure and abandon the world to inevitable corruption by the wicked leaving them unchallenged.

Post: #23

What a fantastic thread on reincarnation! Full of insight and intelligence.

I would like to humbly add that I have for long believed in reincarnation. I get puzzled even now when some cannot understand reincarnation which to me is just common sense.

Having said that, I would like to say that the idea of reincarnation as a foundation of thinking helps create a balanced, objective thought process which creates the best outcome of how one should act or respond to reality.

As mentioned prior, that before Christianity and Islam -- relatively new religions -- most world cultures and religions were based on reincarnation.

Now here is a thought which I find intriguing in relation to reincarnation and feminism.

When we are born, we are either male or female. Transgender is possible but it is a small percentage.

Masculine or feminine energy present when we are born determine our gender.

Now once we live as a man or woman in a life time, we develop our masculine of feminine energies and use them up. Once we leave the world, as per reincarnation, we will be seeking another body again.

But since we have already used up our either masculine or feminine energies, then when we are born again, we will need to develop the other side of our gender.

We are spiritual beings having a human experience -- let us not forget.

We are neither male or female - but spiritual beings in essence.

The temporary physical body we inherit determines our gender for a short period.

Hence if one is born a male - and after a long life - one develops masculine energies and attributes - then in the next life - I humbly believe that a masculine male will be seeking a female body to inhabit to develop its other undeveloped and dormant energy.

One will not be reborn as a man or as a woman in every other life that comes. That does not make sense -- as both masculine and feminine energies need to be developed to become a full being.

A spirit whether human, animal, plant, rivers, oceans, mountains, stars, etc -- is made up of exactly 50% masculine and feminine energies.

So it is a bit of a far away abstract thought perhaps. But I do humbly think it is has a correct basis of thinking as per reincarnation theory.

So if you are a man in this life, there is a good chance you will be a woman in your next life. As vice versa.

Perhaps no one will believe this. But if more people started believing in reincarnation again as the world once did prior to Christianity and Islam -- wouldn't feminism and all other isms soon disappear. Once people realized there are real spirits from the universe and inhabiting in temporary physical bodies.

Post: #24

If homo-sapiens went from 1 billion in ~1900 to about 8 billion today.

Never mind when homo-sapiens was only ~200,000 in no.

Do the numbers even add up for reincarnation...?

Post: #25

(04-28-2018 08:21 PM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  If homo-sapiens went from 1 billion in ~1900 to about 8 billion today.

Never mind when homo-sapiens was only ~200,000 in no.

Do the numbers even add up for reincarnation...?

In Buddhism and Hinduism (i think), a human can be reborn as an animal and vice versa depending on his or her karma. Sometimes reincarnation into other forms such as trees or spirits/ghosts can also come into play.

Also, there are other worldly "limbo" states where souls can "await" reincarnation. If you are not on earth, 1000 years in another dimension can maybe pass in 1 hour.

Not all souls get reincarnated.
Some enter nirvana, others stay in limbo, others chose or are forced on a different path.
A lot depends on your karma.

Souls can also split apart and/or merge together.

Some far east asian cultures (Japan, Korea) are a good examples of this. Individuality is much less pronounced than in the west, and millions of people (though physically seperate) act like an enormous hive mind.