Post: #701

(02-05-2018 01:50 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(02-05-2018 01:10 AM)Sherman Wrote:  Once man developed the brain circuitry for language, he had the ability to imagine and make things up. Art requires the ability to imagine something that doesn't exist, create a physical representation and imagine that it could be real. That is all you need for a religion. Likewise, by creating a symbol called "money" and collectively wishing it to be true, it becomes true and serves a useful purpose.

(1) Art doesn't require the ability to imagine something that doesn't exist. Quite the reverse: as your own cave paintings demonstrate, art only requires the ability to make a representation of something that already exists. That is what the cave paintings are: pictures of living things. No unicorns on the walls, no chimaeras, no hydra.

(2) By the way, that cave painting is from the Cave of El Castillo. It's said to have been created by Neanderthals, not homo sapiens.

(3) Money does not exist by creation of a symbol and collectively wishing it to be true. Money is a technology for the store and exchange of value. It rests on the existence of trust between the at least two individuals who agree to use it as such.

You need considerably more than this for a religion.

1. A figure drawn on a cave is imaginary and not real. It doesn't already exist. It is a series of lines drawn by someone. If a creature can draw a figure on a cave, that creature has the full ability to imagine and make up anything.

The lion-man is dated to about 35000 to 40000 years ago. A lion-man doesn't exist. But the human imagined it and made a figure. (see link below)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-man

2. The cave painting I presented is the cave hyena drawn by Cro-Magnon man.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:..._Hyena.png


3. A dollar bill is just a piece of paper. That's it. It is our imagination that makes it more than that. A monkey will not give you one of his bananas for a dollar bill. And a monkey won't worship another monkey on a cross or blow himself up for the promise of 72,000 bananas. To do that you have to be a smart human with language.

Post: #702

(02-05-2018 08:43 PM)Sherman Wrote:  1. A figure drawn on a cave is imaginary and not real. It doesn't already exist. It is a series of lines drawn by someone. If a creature can draw a figure on a cave, that creature has the full ability to imagine and make up anything.

Based off that absolute statement, one wonders what great religions bowerbirds, dolphins, chimpanzees, elephants, or any of the animal species that have created art could tell us. You might want to rethink your definitions.

You do know the meaning of the word "representation", right? It's rather key here since I specifically included it as all that's required for art.

Quote:representation
ˌrɛprɪzɛnˈteɪʃ(ə)n/Submit
noun
noun: representation; plural noun: representations
1.
the action of speaking or acting on behalf of someone or the state of being so represented.
"you may qualify for free legal representation"
2.
the description or portrayal of someone or something in a particular way.
"the representation of women in newspapers"
synonyms: portrayal, depiction, delineation, presentation, rendition, rendering, characterization, description
"Rossetti's representation of women"
the depiction of someone or something in a work of art.
"Picasso is striving for some absolute representation of reality"
a picture, model, or other depiction of someone or something.
"a striking representation of a vase of flowers"
synonyms: likeness, painting, drawing, picture, portrait, illustration, sketch, diagram, artist's impression; More
(in some theories of perception) a mental state or concept regarded as corresponding to a thing perceived.
3.
formal statements made to an authority, especially so as to communicate an opinion or register a protest.
"the Law Society will make representations to the Lord Chancellor"
a statement or allegation.
"any buyer was relying on a representation that the tapes were genuine"
synonyms: statement, deposition, allegation, claim; More

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #703

(02-05-2018 10:36 PM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(02-05-2018 08:43 PM)Sherman Wrote:  1. A figure drawn on a cave is imaginary and not real. It doesn't already exist. It is a series of lines drawn by someone. If a creature can draw a figure on a cave, that creature has the full ability to imagine and make up anything.

Based off that absolute statement, one wonders what great religions bowerbirds, dolphins, chimpanzees, elephants, or any of the animal species that have created art could tell us. You might want to rethink your definitions.

You do know the meaning of the word "representation", right? It's rather key here since I specifically included it as all that's required for art.

Quote:representation
ˌrɛprɪzɛnˈteɪʃ(ə)n/Submit
noun
noun: representation; plural noun: representations
1.
the action of speaking or acting on behalf of someone or the state of being so represented.
"you may qualify for free legal representation"
2.
the description or portrayal of someone or something in a particular way.
"the representation of women in newspapers"
synonyms: portrayal, depiction, delineation, presentation, rendition, rendering, characterization, description
"Rossetti's representation of women"
the depiction of someone or something in a work of art.
"Picasso is striving for some absolute representation of reality"
a picture, model, or other depiction of someone or something.
"a striking representation of a vase of flowers"
synonyms: likeness, painting, drawing, picture, portrait, illustration, sketch, diagram, artist's impression; More
(in some theories of perception) a mental state or concept regarded as corresponding to a thing perceived.
3.
formal statements made to an authority, especially so as to communicate an opinion or register a protest.
"the Law Society will make representations to the Lord Chancellor"
a statement or allegation.
"any buyer was relying on a representation that the tapes were genuine"
synonyms: statement, deposition, allegation, claim; More

The animals are trained with operant conditioning. This is old. Skinner trained pidgeons to play the piano.

Right, the lines and colors are creating a "representation", which is a neural network connection in the brain. This gives the illusion that those lines and colors are a figure. The lines and colors are on a physical surface. The figure is within the human brain.

Post: #704

(02-05-2018 01:50 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  The fear of death is not rational, as I demonstrated with Disco's post further up. It's an ingrained, irrational response, gifted to us by our biological nature.

I've never heard the fear of death described as irrational before, lol.
Usually suicide and self harm are the domain of the insane.

People are rationally afraid of dying, not just for the biological reason, but also humans have the sad privilege of totally understanding what death means on a more than biological level.

If people (other than insane suicide bombers) *really* believed in heaven etc. why do they seek medical treatment for cancer or other life threatening diseases? Wouldn't they want to get to heaven as quick as possible?

(I understand suicide is a "sin" which precludes you from heaven - which is an important construction for a religion, else every true believer would be checking out)

Post: #705

(02-06-2018 07:38 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  If people (other than insane suicide bombers) *really* believed in heaven etc. why do they seek medical treatment for cancer or other life threatening diseases? Wouldn't they want to get to heaven as quick as possible?

For a start, you're taking a fairly well-worn intellectually dishonest tactic of saying, "Oh, but you don't really believe in your religion unless X." That's essentially a No True Scotsman argument, though presented in an amusing fashion. Either way, the statement contains a quality which is by definition not measurable. Who are you to say what one person believes and the extent to which they believe? Have you some supernatural ability of seeing into people's thoughts at the moment of death from which you present this belief/theory?

Reductio ad absurdum isn't going to help your argument here. By your same argument religions should directly command murder of other people on the rationale they're doing them a service. By contrast, the main Christian teaching is to love thy neighbour, love thy enemies, and the Ten Commandments say thou shalt not kill. You're basically making the same argument as Disco is.

Why are you omitting that people generally seek medical treatment for the relief of pain and suffering that they are experiencing first? Without that qualification, you give the appearance of arguing for compulsory euthanasia for ingrown toenails.

Religion in most forms recognises life's sanctity and its full, positive experience whilst on Earth. Christ's words were "I came that you might have life, and have it to the full." You can agree or disagree with what a full, rich Christian life involves, certainly, but it's a bit silly to run around asserting that real religion should be teaching suicide.

One might note, however, that self-sacrifice for others, so they might live, is a normal part of Christianity. That indeed was the entire point of Christ's crucifixion. Greater love hath no man than that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends.

You may now post up the obligatory System Of A Down video.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #706

(02-06-2018 02:59 PM)Sherman Wrote:  The animals are trained with operant conditioning. This is old. Skinner trained pidgeons to play the piano.

Well, no, they're not. In some cases there is training in place, but in others no training at all has been given.

(02-06-2018 02:59 PM)Sherman Wrote:  Right, the lines and colors are creating a "representation", which is a neural network connection in the brain. This gives the illusion that those lines and colors are a figure. The lines and colors are on a physical surface. The figure is within the human brain.

Funnily enough, that's also precisely what perception is of real objects: you see lines and colours and you assemble them in your brain as an object, be it an apple or a Bible. So as I said: all that's required to generate art is the ability to create a representation. Religion requires much more than that.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #707

(02-06-2018 11:44 PM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(02-06-2018 02:59 PM)Sherman Wrote:  The animals are trained with operant conditioning. This is old. Skinner trained pidgeons to play the piano.

Well, no, they're not. In some cases there is training in place, but in others no training at all has been given.

(02-06-2018 02:59 PM)Sherman Wrote:  Right, the lines and colors are creating a "representation", which is a neural network connection in the brain. This gives the illusion that those lines and colors are a figure. The lines and colors are on a physical surface. The figure is within the human brain.

Funnily enough, that's also precisely what perception is of real objects: you see lines and colours and you assemble them in your brain as an object, be it an apple or a Bible. So as I said: all that's required to generate art is the ability to create a representation. Religion requires much more than that.

1. Your article doesn't say that. It is operant conditioning. There is an open controversy about what apes and monkeys can do. But they are a long ways from human language. You can train a pidgeon to play a piano but he is just reflexively seeking a reward. The elephant is a tourist attraction at Chiang Mai Elephant park so naturally they want people to believe he is an artist.

2. Religion requires human language. Once I have the neural networks that can form symbols and attach them to sensed objects, I can use the same neural network to attach a symbol to a concept I make up. I draw the man-lion on the cave wall because he is a spirit that protects my hunt

Post: #708

All the great men of all time have believed in God as someone who wants to be great, yes I believe in God and you should to.

Post: #709

I started praying and thinking about God lately. I have had some major things change in my life, recently. The change in fortune did not make me want to praise God. It was the opposite. It made me reflect on all of the past things I had been doing: lack of belief, living with a scarcity mindset, nothing will ever change, I am a loser, etc.

Whether you belive in God, or not. Having an abundant daily attitude and developing a sense of self confidence and winning will change your life.

I realized that when you say things could not get any more worse, they will. And if you say you cannot be any more blessed in life, you will get even more back. But you also have to give and give unselfishly.

Somebody above wrote that Jesus came, so that we might live more abundantly. That is true! God does not want you walking around depressed, thinking nothing will ever work out, hating life. God created and owns everything. Success and failure are lessons in life. God has done his part, to set us up for everything in life. We have to do our part to accept his blessings, live with faith. Live with a good attitude. Stop letting things get you down and everything else in your life will change too.

Post: #710

(02-06-2018 11:40 PM)Paracelsus Wrote:  <snipped a load of text book logic question dodging>

Why are you omitting that people generally seek medical treatment for the relief of pain and suffering that they are experiencing first? Without that qualification, you give the appearance of arguing for compulsory euthanasia for ingrown toenails.

That wasn't the essence of the question.. straw man toenails...

(02-06-2018 11:40 PM)Paracelsus Wrote:  You can agree or disagree with what a full, rich Christian life involves, certainly, but it's a bit silly to run around asserting that real religion should be teaching suicide.

You are the silly one if you lack the reading comprehension to note that I devoted a special sentence at the end, just for you to show I understand suicide is excluded. That was a waste of my time. Strawman 2 (although *some* religions run around teaching suicide...)

Let me ask the question again, using little words for you to answer:

If heaven is great, and people *really believe in it* why would they seek medical attention for cancer or other terminal but treatable illnesses?

Quite often the treatment for cancer trades a "south of France" healthy pleasant window for cancer into a miserable Chemo nightmare, for a slim chance of a cure.

To me, the fact that religious people would opt to go for a miserable chance of a cure, rather than a holiday to the south of France before a free ticket to heaven, shows that they really know there is no heaven at some level.

Post: #711

(02-07-2018 01:46 AM)advik78 Wrote:  All the great men of all time have believed in God as someone who wants to be great, yes I believe in God and you should to.

The question is, with so many god, demigods, spirits and religious on offer, how can you pick one that suits your needs?

Should I go for the one with the hottest chicks? Closest temples?

Best afterlife rewards and least effort to worship?

Or pick something obscure to be real cool?

Being atheist is just easier than making all those difficult decisions!

Post: #712

(02-07-2018 08:52 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(02-07-2018 01:46 AM)advik78 Wrote:  All the great men of all time have believed in God as someone who wants to be great, yes I believe in God and you should to.

The question is, with so many god, demigods, spirits and religious on offer, how can you pick one that suits your needs?

Should I go for the one with the hottest chicks? Closest temples?

Best afterlife rewards and least effort to worship?

Or pick something obscure to be real cool?

Being atheist is just easier than making all those difficult decisions!

Easy, become Catholic.

Post: #713

(02-07-2018 08:48 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  If heaven is great, and people *really believe in it* why would they seek medical attention for cancer or other terminal but treatable illnesses?

Aside from the other problems I've identified with the premise of the proposition, someone who deliberately shortens his path to heaven solely because he thinks he'll get the eternal reward that much faster -- which is the essence of the question you're putting -- is someone who is shot through with greed and an overblown sense of entitlement. That person would likely be in for a considerable surprise on reaching heaven, assuming they go there at all.

There's no dignity or wisdom in an early and selfish death. And a great deal of both wisdom and dignity in bearing suffering that the world places on you.

Quote:To me, the fact that religious people would opt to go for a miserable chance of a cure, rather than a holiday to the south of France before a free ticket to heaven, shows that they really know there is no heaven at some level.

Given that you presumably follow this form of logic in all domains of your life I am sure you have never bought a lottery ticket. Also, perhaps you've never heard of (virtually all Catholic, no atheist) palliative care services, which are there precisely to comfort a person who is dying, ease their passing?

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #714

Is there a God gene that makes some people more likely to be religious than others?

Post: #715

(02-08-2018 10:09 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  Is there a God gene that makes some people more likely to be religious than others?

Yes it's related to intelligence too!

Post: #716

(02-08-2018 09:57 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  someone who deliberately shortens his path to heaven solely because he thinks he'll get the eternal reward that much faster is someone who is shot through with greed and an overblown sense of entitlement.

Thats arse about, surely someone who has cancer (through gods will) is due the eternal reward when that cancer claims him. Seeking treatment is going against gods will!

At the very least he shouldn't be in trouble for not seeking treatment and getting the paradise ticket earlier!

Anyway, you take my point, desperately seeking a slim chance of a cure, enduring a horrific treatment - instead of taking the ticket to glory and paradise strait up - comes across as evidence of a deep acceptance of the finality of life, and absence of afterlife - well in my opinion anyway.

Post: #717

(02-07-2018 10:10 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

(02-07-2018 08:52 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(02-07-2018 01:46 AM)advik78 Wrote:  All the great men of all time have believed in God as someone who wants to be great, yes I believe in God and you should to.

The question is, with so many god, demigods, spirits and religious on offer, how can you pick one that suits your needs?

Should I go for the one with the hottest chicks? Closest temples?

Best afterlife rewards and least effort to worship?

Or pick something obscure to be real cool?

Being atheist is just easier than making all those difficult decisions!

Easy, become Catholic.

Buddhists have the slimmer chicks, can't I run with that menu option?

Post: #718

(02-09-2018 07:56 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(02-07-2018 10:10 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

(02-07-2018 08:52 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(02-07-2018 01:46 AM)advik78 Wrote:  All the great men of all time have believed in God as someone who wants to be great, yes I believe in God and you should to.

The question is, with so many god, demigods, spirits and religious on offer, how can you pick one that suits your needs?

Should I go for the one with the hottest chicks? Closest temples?

Best afterlife rewards and least effort to worship?

Or pick something obscure to be real cool?

Being atheist is just easier than making all those difficult decisions!

Easy, become Catholic.

Buddhists have the slimmer chicks, can't I run with that menu option?

We got Catholics out here too.

Truth be told most actual Buddhist girls in non-SEA are grannies or kooks.

Post: #719

(02-08-2018 10:09 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  Is there a God gene that makes some people more likely to be religious than others?

The psychologist William James believed that people are attracted to different religious practices dependant on their personality. For example, evangelical Christians are highly emotional, and their religious worship revolves around music. Someone who is analytical may be more attracted to something like Buddhism. I grew up in Christianity but it has never made any sense to me nor ever given me any comfort ever. Religious people talk about mystical experience. The only time I have these experiences of awe and wonder is when I read a science book. People should just choose what works for them. The old rule of etiquette was that religion is a taboo subject in public. For example, you never talk about religion at a party. This probably makes sense because the differences are irreconcilable.

Post: #720

(02-12-2018 11:24 AM)Sherman Wrote:  I grew up in Christianity but it has never made any sense to me nor ever given me any comfort ever.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1

Post: #721

Out of curiosity, has anyone here studied the story of divine mercy in Catholicism. To anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, Divine Mercy actually refers to the supposed appartition of Mary to 3 children in Fatima, Portugal and the diary of Sr. Faustina Kowalka and the papacy of John Paul 2. It is actually one of the few reasons I have decided to remain Catholic. I used to think the people who believed it were bat-shit crazy, but after reading a great deal about all of these three things, I have began to notice little details that didn't make sense to me and make me think they could be true after all. I don't have time to write in detail about either Sr. Kowalska or the Miracle at Fatima, but one example is the fact that John Paul 2 almost died from an assassination attempt on May 13. The apparition of Mary to the three children at Portugal also occurred on May 13. Supposedly, the 3rd secret of Fatima is that a bishop in white would be struck down. This would make sense since the only bishop who wears white is the pope. John Paul 2 claimed something along the lines that Mary was the only reason he survived. To me it seems like way to big of a coincidence that the two events would occur on the same day. If you don't believe me here are the wiki articles where you can verify the dates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_...on_attempt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima

Also, when I was studying the life in depth of Sr. Kowalska, who is venerated as a saint in the Catholic Church, I noticed little details like the fact that she died exactly when she was 33 (the age Jesus died) As I was reading her diary, I noticed a section in which she claims that Warsaw would be destroyed due to the sin existing in the world. The diary was written shortly before her death in 1938, which means that it would be referring to Warsaw, which was destroyed in WW2. If you want to see where it is written in her diary, go to #39 on the left side of the text.

http://www.boziemilosrdenstvo.sk/download/diary.pdf

She says... "One day Jesus told me that He would cause a chastisement to fall upon the most beautiful
city in our country [probably Warsaw]. This chastisement would be that with which God had
punished Sodom and Gomorrah.[27] I saw the great wrath of God and a shudder pierced my
heart. I prayed in silence."

Either this nun who lived in Poland 11 decades ago predicted the destruction of Warsaw by chance, or someone fabricated the entire diary.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faustina_Kowalska -- Saint Fausinta wiki


Am I crazy and falling prey to my own confirmation bias, or am I actually onto something???? I'd be interested to see what you guys think...

Post: #722

(02-12-2018 11:24 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

(02-08-2018 10:09 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  Is there a God gene that makes some people more likely to be religious than others?

The psychologist William James believed that people are attracted to different religious practices dependant on their personality. For example, evangelical Christians are highly emotional, and their religious worship revolves around music. Someone who is analytical may be more attracted to something like Buddhism. I grew up in Christianity but it has never made any sense to me nor ever given me any comfort ever. Religious people talk about mystical experience. The only time I have these experiences of awe and wonder is when I read a science book. People should just choose what works for them. The old rule of etiquette was that religion is a taboo subject in public. For example, you never talk about religion at a party. This probably makes sense because the differences are irreconcilable.

No, I don't think there is a gene for it. No evidence of that has ever been found. Personality does not affect religious preference... otherwise those 95% Muslim countries would have lots of Buddhists and Evangelicals running around.

I was raised atheist. I'm a scientist by trade. If you truly read science books and feel awe and wonder, then you are simple minded. Whenever I read a science text what stands out most to me is what we do not know and what we potentially can never know. The second thing that strikes me each time is the perfection of the universe and how it seems inherently calibrated to our exact existence.

Fine tuning is such a serious issue that at this point I don't know a single serious atheist that doesn't subscribe to the Multi-Verse theory... which strikes me as ridiculous bullshit.

Everything I've experienced in life points to the idea that either you feel God or you don't. Right now both require belief in the fantastical.

Post: #723

(02-08-2018 10:09 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  Is there a God gene that makes some people more likely to be religious than others?

I think religion originally came from imagination, and fear of the unknown. It then morphed into control mechanism (accept a shitty life now and get a reward when you die)

But it is mostly perpetrated in today's landscape by social and parental brainwashing. Young kids are brainwashed by parents, society and schools.

It's no accident that Saudi Arabia is all muslim, if you were born there, you are going to believe - you have no other choice really.

Post: #724

(02-13-2018 03:30 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  Fine tuning is such a serious issue that at this point I don't know a single serious atheist that doesn't subscribe to the Multi-Verse theory... which strikes me as ridiculous bullshit.

I have always been amused by this kind of logic. If it didn't randomly turn out to be like it is, we would hardly be sitting here amazed at it would we?

It's a bit like rolling a billion sided dice, getting the number 2134242352 and saying "that must be god doing that, because the odds of rolling that can't be an accident!!"

And you just met a serious atheist that doesn't subscribe to multi-verse theory... But ANY explanation that we dressed up monkeys come up with to explain how the fuck the universe happened ALL sound like ridiculous bullshit, especially religious explanations. Better to say "we have some ideas, but really no clue what the fuck is going on, and how all this shit happened!"

Post: #725

(02-12-2018 08:35 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

(02-12-2018 11:24 AM)Sherman Wrote:  I grew up in Christianity but it has never made any sense to me nor ever given me any comfort ever.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1

I have seen so many filmed versions of the life of Jesus I don't even want to admit it.

That one, originally a mini-series that lasted a week, was by far the best of them all. A lot of excellent actors, (too many stars to list, check out imdb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075520/full...t_ov_st_sm), as well as script by Anthony Burgess, killer cinematography, directed by Franco Zeffirelli, and Jesus played by Robert Powell, possibly the most striking actor to ever play Jesus.



Burgess has some effective tricks in his script, combining scripture in scenes to make deeper points.

If you want to feel what it must have been like to experience Jesus, this is the one.