Post: #1

Ok so I don't consider myself a newbie but I suppose this is a newbie sort of question.

You daygame (or whatever), you get numbers, most are fake/flake but some respond.

After some back and forward banter you propose a meeting. She makes an excuse without proposing an alternative. My personal pet hate.

So a week later you either ping or make more banter and try again. She does the exact same thing - turns down the offer without offering any alternative.

So you (I) delete her number and move on.

A week later she contacts you asking how you are doing, banter ensures, you ask her out and low and behold she does the exact same thing.

What do you guys do in this situation? I mean for the girls who don't propose an alternative and keep doing this, deleting her number is the obvious answer but what about girls who keep hitting you up first at later dates?

One lead of mine in Poland contacted me no less than 3 times over the last year out of the blue but like clock work she would not offer any alternative when I proposed a meeting. If she messages me again I will tell her she has broken the record for a girl having her number deleted from my phone

In the past I used to 'steamroll' girls, just keep messaging them whether from tinder or day game until they were forced to give an answer as to whether they wanted to meet or not but I eventually stopped doing that as I found it soul-destroying and got burnt out as a result.

So I try to play the numbers game hard and only focus energy on girls who if they don't accept a meeting suggestion at least offer an alternative. Yet at the same time, how many of these other girls are you missing out on if you don't apply some kind of game to 'persuade' them to meet you even when they are giving you nothing back?

Post: #2

(01-19-2018 10:26 AM)WannaBang Wrote:  What do you guys do in this situation? I mean for the girls who don't propose an alternative and keep doing this, deleting her number is the obvious answer but what about girls who keep hitting you up first at later dates?

She wants attention/validation. She wants confirmation that you still want the privilege of taking her out even though you ghosted her. "I'm living rent-free in your mind, and I can prove it."

If she's already done this twice and you still want her around, reduce the emotional payoff by raising the bar. Withhold the entertaining banter. Pile on the indifference. Make it borderline disrespectful.

"Oh yeah, I remember you. Just finished [something cool], going to watch [some bullshit] on Netflix and unwind. Stop by McDonald's and bring me a box of chicken tenders and you can hang out."

If you can't even get minimal compliance out of her for a first date while texting, there's no point in trying to take her ass somewhere nice again. That just teaches her she deserves something for nothing. She may be legit shaken up and change her tune if you turn the tables on her and tell her she needs to buy her way into your apartment. She may get butthurt and never contact you again. Either way, you've saved yourself some time and energy and might get free chicken tenders. Chicken tenders or GTFO.

Post: #3

Never give up.

There's no such thing as asking a girl out too many times.

"You miss all the shots you don't take."

-Michael Jordan

Post: #4

Burn the lead to the ground as long as there no social circle repercussions.

One time I got this girls number and built comfort, did the banter thing and tried to flip some attraction switches all day in between work stuff. Every time I would ask her to do something she would conveniently have other plans or whatever. She never actually flaked or I would have dropped it. I did that once or twice a week for a month. It eventually took me friending her on facebook, conscripting my friends girl and having her add her on facebook for a while then mentioning me and talking me up. After knowing this girl for a month or so I eventually bagged her and dated for a while. She actually invited me out in the end.

Another time there was a girl in my social circle but I had enough clout to survive any fallout. She would come out with the boys every few days. I played the push and pull game with her constantly. Eventually I tried to get her to wing for me, we developed a code for girls I found attractive and girls I didn't so she knew if she was wasting her time chatting up some girl and bringing her over. "Watermelons" was good "onion" was bad. On slow nights she'd ask me "any watermelons here Eugenics" and I'd crack a shit eating grin and say "just you [name], whats up with it". Everyone in my social circle tried to fuck her and failed. After about a month she decided to stay over at my house after we were all done going out. Banged. After, my friends asked her what the fuck I did as they all witnessed her staying over. She told them I was aggressive and persistent and it turned her on.

Don't give up if it's something you really want. If it feels off and like she's not being genuine with you though take note as it might never happen. There are more of those stories where I completely failed and wasted a bunch of time, and something always felt wrong during. Never make it your main focus, it should be a downtime sport if anything. And if you develop oneitis during you're burnt go next.

Post: #5

There is something called long-game, but it is different from asking her out repeatedly like a chipmunk - essentially it's a prolonged flirting Game. Some guys like to do it and are good at it - others have no patience for this. Obviously I meant that both kind of men have massive Game and experience - just different styles. What you are describing is not one of those cases.

Even 2 years can pass between first number close and final bang, but I would recommend you check out the Game literature on that - read the assorted Indirect Daygame works of Roosh and the direct ones by Krauser - that should give you more than enough insight.

Post: #6

(01-19-2018 01:40 PM)Eugenics Wrote:  Burn the lead to the ground as long as there no social circle repercussions.

One time I got this girls number and built comfort, did the banter thing and tried to flip some attraction switches all day in between work stuff. Every time I would ask her to do something she would conveniently have other plans or whatever. She never actually flaked or I would have dropped it. I did that once or twice a week for a month. It eventually took me friending her on facebook, conscripting my friends girl and having her add her on facebook for a while then mentioning me and talking me up. After knowing this girl for a month or so I eventually bagged her and dated for a while. She actually invited me out in the end.

Another time there was a girl in my social circle but I had enough clout to survive any fallout. She would come out with the boys every few days. I played the push and pull game with her constantly. Eventually I tried to get her to wing for me, we developed a code for girls I found attractive and girls I didn't so she knew if she was wasting her time chatting up some girl and bringing her over. "Watermelons" was good "onion" was bad. On slow nights she'd ask me "any watermelons here Eugenics" and I'd crack a shit eating grin and say "just you [name], whats up with it". Everyone in my social circle tried to fuck her and failed. After about a month she decided to stay over at my house after we were all done going out. Banged. After, my friends asked her what the fuck I did as they all witnessed her staying over. She told them I was aggressive and persistent and it turned her on.

Don't give up if it's something you really want. If it feels off and like she's not being genuine with you though take note as it might never happen. There are more of those stories where I completely failed and wasted a bunch of time, and something always felt wrong during. Never make it your main focus, it should be a downtime sport if anything. And if you develop oneitis during you're burnt go next.

Burn the lead to the ground - I love that! Life is about timing and its hard to get the timing lined up. Keep throwing the occasional call/text/dm into her and sometimes it will work out. If it doesnt, fuck it.

Post: #7

I usually ask out a girl twice before giving up. If she seems genuinely busy I'll try a 3rd time, but if she denies I'll delete her number. If a girl were to hit me up several weeks later I'd try twice again. Take my advice with a grain of salt though.. In December I met this girl in Taiwan, asked her out 2 or 3 times, she declined my invite, I stopped contacting her, and 1 month later she hit me up asking if I wanted to hang out. I would have met her but I was already gone from Taiwan. Personally I cut girls off after 2 or 3 attempts because I'd rather focus my energy on new girls who won't resist.

Post: #8

Some very interesting ideas guys and thank you for taking the time to write them! It is much appreciated.

Back in 2016 when I was hitting it hard instead of deleting girl's numbers I would add them to the 'naughty step' list. When I came back to the country in question I might have as many as 20-40 girls on the naughty step and I would mass message them all. Almost, always 1-2 would answer. Rarely it would go anywhere so I eventually sacked that idea in.

I guess it comes down to many factors which I cannot control. If a girl gives me her real number and responds at least once I can reasonably assume I was attractive enough but as some of you mention, circumstances change. She phases in and out of 'availability' for whatever reason and that is why they say you should try and get her out asap before she no longer becomes available due to whatever reason.

Those girls who hit me up out of the blue however who still don't meet up with me. Yeah man, weird. Maybe the instagram like just ain't doing it anymore so they then turn to getting a reply of acknowledgement from some guy who gave her a stronger 'high' on the street just to break the mould so to speak.

As for the gentleman who mentioned 'long game.' Yeah I do this and kind of like it. Only occasionally has it worked though my FB in Poland was one such girl who I long gamed for 9 months or so. i rarely have a choice as I work at sea so I have to long game to an extent the numbers I accumulate while I am 'hunting' haha. Right now I am working on a girl from Budapest I hit up almost 1.5 years ago now. If nothing else it serves as good practice for improving texting skills and as leisure!

Post: #9

Women who want you will make themselves available to you. It's really that simple. If shes dodging you, she doesn't like you. And there is little to nothing you can do to change her mind on that.

Screen, don't convert. This is my motto.

Post: #10

(01-21-2018 05:01 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  Women who want you will make themselves available to you. It's really that simple. If shes dodging you, she doesn't like you. And there is little to nothing you can do to change her mind on that.

Screen, don't convert. This is my motto.

Well said.

Post: #11

(01-21-2018 05:01 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  Screen, don't convert. This is my motto.

This is the problem I see with RVF. And nothing personal against Rhyme or Reason because that's what I used to believe in.

But "screen, dont convert" is average game.

There's nothing wrong with that, but the hallmark of strong game is being able to convert girls. If you are screening for interested girls and playing "no fuck up" game you are not spitting a lot of game, you are just not fucking up.

I just dont see enough of true game being discussed on RVF anymore. It's always screen or next.

Sure it's the most efficient, but then making 10 machine-made made in China scaffs is more efficient than hand-knitting one.

Post: #12

I fucking hate banter. The older I get the less patience I have for inane text messages. How come bitches want to text for hours before meeting? Why can't they meet and learn about the other person in person, especially if you were attracted enough to give number or initiate conversation initially?

Post: #13

(01-22-2018 06:38 AM)monsquid Wrote:  I fucking hate banter. The older I get the less patience I have for inane text messages. How come bitches want to text for hours before meeting? Why can't they meet and learn about the other person in person, especially if you were attracted enough to give number or initiate conversation initially?

Post: #14

(01-22-2018 04:14 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 05:01 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  Screen, don't convert. This is my motto.

This is the problem I see with RVF. And nothing personal against Rhyme or Reason because that's what I used to believe in.

But "screen, dont convert" is average game.

There's nothing wrong with that, but the hallmark of strong game is being able to convert girls. If you are screening for interested girls and playing "no fuck up" game you are not spitting a lot of game, you are just not fucking up.

I just dont see enough of true game being discussed on RVF anymore. It's always screen or next.

Sure it's the most efficient, but then making 10 machine-made made in China scaffs is more efficient than hand-knitting one.

Both of y'all have a point here, and this is a great example of the difference between what Blackdragon calls "Thrill of the Hunt" versus "Pleasure of Sex" players:

Quote:PoS guys desire sex. They don’t care how they get it as long as it’s easy, quick, and not a lot of trouble. For TotH guys, the hunt is just as important as the sex. Sometimes it’s even more important.

TotH guys are always pushing themselves to the limit, trying to accomplish difficult lays. Fucking a gal who was really hard lay is a huge source of pleasure for them. The harder the lay, the more they had to work, the more they had to push themselves for the lay, the better they like it.

PoS guys just want to get laid. They want to get to the sex as easily as possible without a lot of hassle, even if the methods they use are considered “boring” or “AFC”. They just want the sex. They don’t give as shit about the hunt.

TotH guys view the process of seduction as fun and thoroughly enjoyable. PoS guys view the process of seduction as a necessary evil. They both can be very effective. One wants to push himself to accomplish great things, the other wants to get laid fast and easily. Either approach can work.

I'm a Pleasure of Sex guy. I have enough going on in my life between work, friends, hobbies, travel, etc. that I'm not interested in spending any more time on game than absolutely necessary to get laid.

Cold approaching, going on dates, fighting through LMR, mitigating next-morning ASD...sometimes these can be enjoyable (when you REALLY enjoy spending time with the girl, or when you can tell certain techniques are improving or you've finally eliminated a recurring mistake, etc.), but most of the time I find myself wondering what my day/week/month would have looked like if I had taken all that time and instead invested it in my business or other pursuits. There's always an opportunity cost.

Maybe that feeling disappears in a few years when I've stacked enough paper and accomplished other goals to be able to dedicate 20+ hours/week to gaming sluts (ala Krauser and his multi-week Euro jaunts), but right now I simply don't have time to play games with "maybe" girls and would rather ruthlessly cut leads that aren't obviously digging me from the start.

I've definitely left bangs on the table because of this, and I'm sure my game isn't as sharp as it could be (in the same way that any skill will atrophy given a lack of continuous challenges), but this was a necessary sacrifice. I'll go crazy if I don't get laid consistently (and I've been on NoFap/NoPorn long enough to where I dread an extended dry spell that may lead to a relapse), so my MO the last two years or so has basically been to acquire two plates and then start searching for replacements whenever one of them falls off. Interestingly enough I've probably had more sex than most of my player friends (no less than 2-3x/week with no dry spells) during that time, even though I've only managed a handful of notches.

In conclusion, I think the answer to this thread will differ individually based on which end of the TotH vs PoS spectrum a given player falls on, and his willingness and desire to put in additional work towards versus minimizing that investment in order to apply the time and energy to other ventures.

Post: #15

(01-22-2018 04:14 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 05:01 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  Screen, don't convert. This is my motto.

This is the problem I see with RVF. And nothing personal against Rhyme or Reason because that's what I used to believe in.

But "screen, dont convert" is average game.

There's nothing wrong with that, but the hallmark of strong game is being able to convert girls. If you are screening for interested girls and playing "no fuck up" game you are not spitting a lot of game, you are just not fucking up.

I just dont see enough of true game being discussed on RVF anymore. It's always screen or next.

Sure it's the most efficient, but then making 10 machine-made made in China scaffs is more efficient than hand-knitting one.

I understand what you're saying here. But I think that the difference is one of time investment and not quality of game. It seems like an oversimplification to say that screening is simply running 'Dont fuck it up' game. You still have to get from point A, to B, to C. She won't be doing that legwork for you most of the time.

From where I'm sitting it seems like you're more concerned with what's considered real game by your peers than what gives you the best ROI for your time. If there's anything 'wrong with rvf' (your words not mine) it's that mindset.

To me, it's simply a matter of what is the most effective use of my time, which you already surmised.

So let me ask you this...

Agree or Disagree:

A girl has pretty much decided whether or not she will potentially fuck you based on first impressions.


If a girl likes you without you having to try too hard, that's average game?

By your reasoning, Rockstars have no game? Rappers? Famous actors, ect?

Why waste my time on dead leads who are not interested when I can focus on creating new leads who are?

Between those two perspectives, which one leads to posts like the OP's? Do you think he'd be worried about how many times to ask a girl out and convert a girl who seemingly isn't interested if he was to instead direct that energy towards attracting girls who ARE interested?

Explain.

edit: What we are disagreeing on may be a matter of what constitutes disinterest. I'm not saying you should next a girl who doesn't immediately offer up the poosy when you first approach. But in the case of the OP, you'd be hard pressed to say he's still got a chance to bang her. There's also the fact that in my experience, when I have banged chicks who were luke warm about me, it didn't really feel right anyway. I want to fuck girls who are very into me and want to please me.

Post: #16

I've been on the receiving end of this, with a much more drawn out timeframe, and read similar on other forums. This is apparently classic BPD behaviour and has potential to end badly - mine certainly did. My suggestion is to avoid at all costs.

Post: #17

(01-23-2018 02:05 AM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  Agree or Disagree:

A girl has pretty much decided whether or not she will potentially fuck you based on first impressions.


If a girl likes you without you having to try too hard, that's average game?

Agree. Now that's done, let me ask you this: why should I leave the decision to fuck me to the girl, and not myself?

I will fuck any girl I like, whether she decides she wants to fuck me or not (at the beginning). By the time I'm done with her, she will be jumping on my horse.

That's my goal. For me that's the definition of true game, or what you would call classic seduction. All my life I've met maybe 2 guys who could do this, sadly one of them's no longer living.

And if you are good at this, it would not be a matter of time investment. The guys I was talking about could convert a girl who rejected him during the course of a night and bang her right then. Most of us would still hit and miss with a green light girl, much less a red light girl.

Quote:By your reasoning, Rockstars have no game? Rappers? Famous actors, ect?

Most of them don't, unless you consider fame/money = game, then yeah. Ryan Gosling might as well be mute and girls would fuck him in public. That's not game.

Game is the ability to convince people (girls) to do what you want. If the girls already like you then she's doing what she wants and what you want. All good, but obviously you dont need much skills there. It's just like sales. The good saleman can sell you stuff you dont need, or THINK you dont need.

Quote:Why waste my time on dead leads who are not interested when I can focus on creating new leads who are?

This is only true if you consider all leads are equals. If you just want to fuck any girl above 6, game on. AWALT, amiright????

Not for me. Sometimes a yes girl is hotter/more interesting than all the no/maybe girl (God bless). But way too often a girl I want to fuck is no/maybe or unavailable.

We all know that feeling when we just want this girl but we cant have her. After consuming a ton of RVF and redpill we know that "it's oneitis/it's bad/next/it kills your game" so we internalize this attitude. A lot of the PUA community still harbor a deep fear of rejection and failure, hence this "nexting" popularity.

The true seducer would pursue this non-responsive lead and turn it into mind blowing orgasm. Granted this is advanced game and the guys who could pull it off belongs in what WIA call "the secret society". They dont talk about this.

The average abundance mentality goes like this: "there are always other girls interested in me".

Their abundance mentality goes like this "I can make all girls interested in me, this one is no exception."

Quote:If a girl likes you without you having to try too hard, that's average game?

Yes. You still have game, you are better than the 70% of the population (because 50% of the population are chodes, and the 20% left has weak ass game) But that's average game. Neither good nor bad. It's all you ever need frankly. I have nothing against you there.

But most guys who think they have game haven't really seen what good game looks like, and think they have good game, while they just have standard game.

Quote:Between those two perspectives, which one leads to posts like the OP's? Do you think he'd be worried about how many times to ask a girl out and convert a girl who seemingly isn't interested if he was to instead direct that energy towards attracting girls who ARE interested?

OP's is a noob, just like we all were once (and still are). I'm talking about true seduction which very few guys can pull off.

It stop being a matter of efficiency because guys who play this game aren't worried about getting laid anymore. They are doing this more for the fun and to better themselves.

Post: #18

(01-22-2018 04:14 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 05:01 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  Screen, don't convert. This is my motto.

This is the problem I see with RVF. And nothing personal against Rhyme or Reason because that's what I used to believe in.

But "screen, dont convert" is average game.

There's nothing wrong with that, but the hallmark of strong game is being able to convert girls. If you are screening for interested girls and playing "no fuck up" game you are not spitting a lot of game, you are just not fucking up.

I just dont see enough of true game being discussed on RVF anymore. It's always screen or next.

Sure it's the most efficient, but then making 10 machine-made made in China scaffs is more efficient than hand-knitting one.

I'm not interested in having better game. I'm interesting in having sex with hot girls. Wanting "better game" is what creates strange PUA types. I also don't buy the idea of "good game." Guys with the hottest girls get them either through social circle, their social status or fame. Money helps too, it's almost necessary if you want to keep a super hot girl around. Sure you can have sex with hot girls if you're broke, but you won't be able to keep her around long term without money. In general it's a better pursuit of time to go after money than "better game"

Post: #19

Saw good advise here. You can not follow a recipe every time a girl turns down a date. As some people said, first figure out if the is not interested, if she is looking for validation, if the attraction is not enough, or she is still not comfortable, and decide from there.If you have time, and she is interested somehow, text her about cool stuff you are doing, then stop texting. Meet other girls, text her again, and one day tell her you are going out to an specific place, and if she wants to join. If she declines, you go anyway with somebody else and then post pictures. Show her you don't need her

Post: #20

Sounds like you got friend-zoned without even going on a date. Also sounds like she could have a boyfriend. Is that a possibility?

You gotta couple options. here:

1) Is she cool enough to keep around just as a text buddy or something? If so, keep her around. If she's not annoying you with a mass bombing of texts and it's not bothering you, keep her around. You may never go out with her, but you also never know when one of her girlfriends has a break-up and she says, "Hey, I have the perfect girl for you!"
But don't ask her out anymore. You've already made your intentions clear. If she wants to go out with you, she'll ask you out.

2). If she's annoying you, the next time she texts "Hey what's up?"
Just use my favorite reply: "unsubscribe"
Then block her from your phone and move on.

How does that sound?

Post: #21

There are just too many women out in the world to get hung up on one.

If you're a "Thrill of the Hunt" kind of guy and the chase excites you, then go for it I guess. But at some point you have to realize you can't negotiate attraction and why waste your time?

You have to have that Abundance Mentality.

In your case OP, personally I would hard next OR just go direct game on her next time she texts you: "Hey, come over for a movie".

Post: #22

(01-22-2018 04:14 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 05:01 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  Screen, don't convert. This is my motto.

This is the problem I see with RVF. And nothing personal against Rhyme or Reason because that's what I used to believe in.

But "screen, dont convert" is average game.

There's nothing wrong with that, but the hallmark of strong game is being able to convert girls. If you are screening for interested girls and playing "no fuck up" game you are not spitting a lot of game, you are just not fucking up.

I just dont see enough of true game being discussed on RVF anymore. It's always screen or next.

Sure it's the most efficient, but then making 10 machine-made made in China scaffs is more efficient than hand-knitting one.

I totally agree. Except for the black men thread which has quite a few posters dropping gems.

Post: #23

(01-25-2018 12:08 PM)[email protected] Wrote:  In your case OP, personally I would hard next OR just go direct game on her next time she texts you: "Hey, come over for a movie".

I'll say again, this is the correct answer.

If she doesn't want to go on a date, go straight to dick and see what happens. Don't waste more time and energy validating her.

Post: #24

(01-25-2018 12:20 PM)Beirut Wrote:  

(01-22-2018 04:14 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 05:01 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  Screen, don't convert. This is my motto.

This is the problem I see with RVF. And nothing personal against Rhyme or Reason because that's what I used to believe in.
But "screen, dont convert" is average game.
There's nothing wrong with that, but the hallmark of strong game is being able to convert girls. If you are screening for interested girls and playing "no fuck up" game you are not spitting a lot of game, you are just not fucking up.
I just dont see enough of true game being discussed on RVF anymore. It's always screen or next.
Sure it's the most efficient, but then making 10 machine-made made in China scaffs is more efficient than hand-knitting one.

I totally agree. Except for the black men thread which has quite a few posters dropping gems.

Screening Vs Converting

Every woman in the back of her mind has a wordless picture of what she wants in a man. Typically that attraction picture revolves around what she believes her life will feel like with her imaginary man.

So, when you meet a woman right off, you have only a short amount of time to make yourself fit that image in the back of her mind. Some guys fit the look of what she wants. The next step is then convincing her that your life is fun and that she will enjoy being together with you. Once those two things are accomplished you should try to display social status and the ability to control resources!

So, if you understand what is actually occurring, Screening can be strong game. If you have to work our ass off to convert a girl, it means you are failing to match her mental attraction initially.

I will tell you honestly that I have to convert more than screen. The reason is simple.... my game is not as good as many other guys here and my look/style is not great. When I am in great shape and my game is going good then I can screen more than convert.

So, to the point of the thread. If you want to continue chasing a woman... and believe me they DO respond to persistence... Each time you hit her up you need to be doing something to make yourself fit her "fantasy man".

Post: #25

I agree with Rhyme or Reason. EVERY single girl who i have had to work real hard for and eventually got has always turned around and burned me in the end . The truth is if you are working extra hard to game a girl , you have already fallen into her frame.

The best sex and the best relationships with women I've had in my life have come from girls who showed clear interest in me. That's why I'm a true believer of Screen don't convert.

The truth of the matter is you will NEVER run out of girls ... You can't even possibly approach 1% of the girls in the world or fuck them . Not even 1% so why waste time on girls who don't want to be with you . Screen for interest do not waste time on girls who make you work hard to be with them.

Strive to be her #1 option not her last option. No one in the world gives their #1 option a hard time Male/Female. Be smart