Post: #26

(01-12-2018 08:48 PM)king bast Wrote:  Dont you find it just a little curious that asians that cant string 2 words of english together, magically develop impecable english reading and writing skills at test time, which then evaporate as quick as they came? Or is that another one of the things we're not supposed to notice about the wonders of diversity?

No, because speaking English and reading/writing it are two different things. I've come across kids in India who have great written English skills, but who are too shy to have an English conversation. You'd be surprised at how many non-English speaking Indian kids know their way round an English language smartphone.

I went to grad school in the US and a lot of Chinese FOB students definitely cheated - they would do individual assignments in groups.

The Chinese-Americans wanted nothing to do with the Mainland Chinese FOBs. They would however interact with the Taiwanese FOBs. I wouldn't say the Chinese-Americans cheated.

I think it's a cultural thing, not genetic. Parents who came from poverty emphasis hard work and making money in order to not starve. Parents who came from an educated background also push their kids.

I don't consider Chinese particularly intelligent - they tend to learn what they need to learn to make money. Outside of that the average Chinese person doesn't have well rounded knowledge. I used to work with Chinese-American finance MBA who could calculate a mortgage in his head, but he didn't know what continent India or Iran was in - he claimed it was "specialised knowledge" to know that.

American immigration rules tend to ensure that the smartest immigrants from many East Asian countries and from South Asia make it to the US. There's plenty of dumb people in Asia too, but most of them never manage to make it to the US.

In my own famiy if you go back to my grandparent's generation, most of them were illiterate peasants in India. My father moved to the UK and he emphasised education to me and my brothers. Nearly all of my brothers have at least a bachelors degree and some including myself have a master's degree. Even to this day, I still have illiterate aunts - one of them didn't know that the earth went round the sun.

Because my father came from poverty, he emphasised that hard work and making the best of your opportunities was the way to get ahead in life.

(01-12-2018 11:30 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  That's why if you started looking under a magnifying glass you'd see a big performance difference between southeast and northeast asians too. Southeast asians tend to have a different mentality and aren't influenced as much by confucian work ethic. Confucian work ethic is not too different from the protestant work ethic in practice.

People in the mainstream media tend to lump all asians together (including subcontinent people with southeast/northeast asians) which is patently ridiculous.

I agree, a lot of the Chinese and Taiwanese came to the US as students, whereas a lot of the Vietnamese, Hmong, Cambodians and Laotians came as refugees. They have very different income levels.

Post: #27

The problem with Americans is that if you achieve something impressive, like get a 4.0 in three difficult degrees in four years of college, people will say that you're really smart.

This creates a lot of problems. It creates a disconnect between the amount of work a guy had to put into something and it invents this false narrative that the only people who achieve things are really smart.

Ergo, people don't take risks and don't try hard at certain things because if they fail, everyone will think they're fucking dumb and being dumb is worse than being a low achiever.

If you believe that hard work brings success, then if you fail, you simply did not work hard enough. This might not always be true, but at least in your world, your destiny is somewhat controlled by your ability to apply yourself to your goals.

Post: #28

This hard work vs creativity is not black and white. For the average person (give or take), hard work or what some of you called conscientiousness is definitely a better bet than thinking you can wing it on creativity alone.

On the other hand, rote learning and following rules, doesn't really work as well at the far end of the bell curve. If you want to do new, groundbreaking work, then there has to be that willingness to be wrong for decades until you are right.

I see this "lone misunderstood genius" as a very culturally European thing. I was once at a conference in a tech related field in Singapore and an Asian presenter called out how they as Asians had it more difficult. This because their parents would not accept them sitting around trying to figure things out with no guarantee of success. Asian parents would push their children into a safe occupation long before European parents would.

I don't know why this is so, but there is evidence to prove it. Groundbreaking research and innovation is still a European, American and to some degree Japanese phenomenon.

Post: #29

I had a good friend from China when I went to college.

He said that Chinese people are really good test takers. All their lives they've been trained to pass tests to get into their next schools and what not. My friend was very good at all things math. He knew how to ace exams and get A's in all his math classes, but he was abysmal at anything that has to do with writing papers, writing and reading was his main weakness and I noticed that all the international kids were the same way. Which was really good at taking math tests, but extremely bad at anything outside of that.

I learned that in Asian universities, students take a midterm Exam and a Final exam in all their courses. All their grades revolve around taking exams, whereas in the US its exams mixed in with homework and some papers.

Post: #30

(01-13-2018 04:25 AM)Fortis Wrote:  Hard work = conscientiousness which is a component of virtually all success in life.

That said, I'd Asians have the positive "smart" stereotype working for them, so people may be more apt to overestimate an Asian intelligence and attribute their good ideas to intelligence rather than luck or hard work. I mean, it's better than being black and having everyone think all your success was due to affirmative action or handouts. Haha. So I got no hate for my asian bros.

That said, I'd say, as a man living in China, that Asian (chinese-specifically) IQ is vastly overrated and, perhaps, overstated in many cases. Lotta dumb asians just like any other race. I don't buy the "average Chinese IQ of 100" line at all.

Do you have stats to back that up or is it just anecdotal life experience? I met plenty of Chinese people who came across as ignorant, uncouth, and boorish - bad style, terrible social skills, often annoying sometimes unhygienic. However, the average person there can do basic math and can read, which is actually MORE than what we could say of the majority of citizens in (what Trump would refer to as) 'shithole' countries.

Post: #31

(01-14-2018 05:03 PM)Arado Wrote:  However, the average person there can do basic math and can read, which is actually MORE than what we could say of the majority of citizens in (what Trump would refer to as) 'shithole' countries.

I'm sure Norway was a "shithole" country with a population who couldn't read at one point. The stats are out there somewhere.

Post: #32

Arado, I'm not sure what you're referring to exactly? Are you talking about my understanding of how Asian intelligence is viewed or how Black intelligence is viewed.

I can tell you from experience as a hiring manager that many people see a "black" name and a "black" neighborhood on your resume and throw it in the rubbish bin. I was once hiring math teachers for a learning center back in America. I passed a resume on to my boss. The girl graduated with a high GPA from a well-known east coast school. She had a black name, something like Shakwanda and she was from a shitty town.

My boss looked at the resume and went, "Name and town just don't match what we're looking for." The GPA and science degree did not mean anything in the face of just being "too black." We didn't even bother calling her for an interview even though we were STARVED for math and science teachers at the time.

As far as Asians go, I do think they're probably one of the most conscientious groups out there and that goes far when it comes to overall achievements. Sometimes, the Asian in question isn't necessarily smarter than his white or black peers, but he's willing to put in crazy hours to get shit done and is able to pull ahead. I'm not hating, just pointing out an observation I've had as a teacher here and a tutor in the West.

I wasn't calling any country a shithole country. I was pointing out that I"m not so sure that Mainland Chinese citizens are actually averaging 100 IQ. I've met far too many old people here who don't even speak Mandarin or have worse mandarin and reading than me, to really believe the warm, fuzzy #s coming out of China about their supposed intelligence.

I don't have data, but I've been working with middle class to lower middle-class Chinese children for the past 3 years. I currently work in one of the better schools in SZ (best would be a stretch) and the kids are all pretty smart and even the retarded kids can read), but I previously worked in a school where maybe 1-5 out of 40 kids in a class could read properly. I'm talking asking 4th graders to read 1st-2nd grade English and actually understanding it.

You might be able to argue that my current school is indicative of where China is trending and I'd be inclined to agree, but I"m still hesitant to go "yes they average 100 IQ!" That said, I do think China has a pretty intelligent population with many people well above 100 IQ points, so there is that.

However, like I said earlier, even working as a teacher here, the good students are really good or hardworking. more often, it's the latter, but I don't think there's any shame in that.

I think that China's government just has a boner for trying to look better than they are and they've created a nigh untenable situation for themselves as a result.

I mean, if you build your entire culture around a collective sense of superiority (muh glorious past and 1001010101 year plan) you create a situation where if you don't fudge #s to keep up with more advanced nations then your people start looking around and questioning everything you've been saying.

Also, i don't think countries like Japan and Singapore are good places to extrapolate actual Mainland Chinese IQ from. Japan probably does score well over 100 on average, but they're also super developed. Same goes for Singapore. I highly doubt your average Mainland Chinese people is going to perform on the same level as a Japanese or Singaporean student.

Post: #33

(01-14-2018 08:26 PM)Fortis Wrote:  Arado, I'm not sure what you're referring to exactly? Are you talking about my understanding of how Asian intelligence is viewed or how Black intelligence is viewed.

I can tell you from experience as a hiring manager that many people see a "black" name and a "black" neighborhood on your resume and throw it in the rubbish bin. I was once hiring math teachers for a learning center back in America. I passed a resume on to my boss. The girl graduated with a high GPA from a well-known east coast school. She had a black name, something like Shakwanda and she was from a shitty town.

My boss looked at the resume and went, "Name and town just don't match what we're looking for." The GPA and science degree did not mean anything in the face of just being "too black." We didn't even bother calling her for an interview even though we were STARVED for math and science teachers at the time.

As far as Asians go, I do think they're probably one of the most conscientious groups out there and that goes far when it comes to overall achievements. Sometimes, the Asian in question isn't necessarily smarter than his white or black peers, but he's willing to put in crazy hours to get shit done and is able to pull ahead. I'm not hating, just pointing out an observation I've had as a teacher here and a tutor in the West.

I wasn't calling any country a shithole country. I was pointing out that I"m not so sure that Mainland Chinese citizens are actually averaging 100 IQ. I've met far too many old people here who don't even speak Mandarin or have worse mandarin and reading than me, to really believe the warm, fuzzy #s coming out of China about their supposed intelligence.

I don't have data, but I've been working with middle class to lower middle-class Chinese children for the past 3 years. I currently work in one of the better schools in SZ (best would be a stretch) and the kids are all pretty smart and even the retarded kids can read), but I previously worked in a school where maybe 1-5 out of 40 kids in a class could read properly. I'm talking asking 4th graders to read 1st-2nd grade English and actually understanding it.

You might be able to argue that my current school is indicative of where China is trending and I'd be inclined to agree, but I"m still hesitant to go "yes they average 100 IQ!" That said, I do think China has a pretty intelligent population with many people well above 100 IQ points, so there is that.

However, like I said earlier, even working as a teacher here, the good students are really good or hardworking. more often, it's the latter, but I don't think there's any shame in that.

I think that China's government just has a boner for trying to look better than they are and they've created a nigh untenable situation for themselves as a result.

I mean, if you build your entire culture around a collective sense of superiority (muh glorious past and 1001010101 year plan) you create a situation where if you don't fudge #s to keep up with more advanced nations then your people start looking around and questioning everything you've been saying.

Also, i don't think countries like Japan and Singapore are good places to extrapolate actual Mainland Chinese IQ from. Japan probably does score well over 100 on average, but they're also super developed. Same goes for Singapore. I highly doubt your average Mainland Chinese people is going to perform on the same level as a Japanese or Singaporean student.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply - I know we've discussed this issue ad nauseum in the past so no point in rehashing it. You definitely have a better on the ground understanding of Chinese ability since you were teaching them, so I don't really have a rebuttal. My only point is that before we make definitive statements about whose IQ is what, we need enough data to back it up. Clearly, for China, we're far from having a complete picture so probably no one knows what their real IQ is. If we are using anecdotal evidence then we need some sort of standard for comparison between countries. In the example you cite above about the resume being trashed, that sounds really unfair. I wish we could get away from degree credentialism and hire people solely based on tests - that could level the playing field.

Post: #34

(01-14-2018 01:41 PM)Pancho Wrote:  I had a good friend from China when I went to college.

He said that Chinese people are really good test takers. All their lives they've been trained to pass tests to get into their next schools and what not. My friend was very good at all things math. He knew how to ace exams and get A's in all his math classes, but he was abysmal at anything that has to do with writing papers, writing and reading was his main weakness and I noticed that all the international kids were the same way. Which was really good at taking math tests, but extremely bad at anything outside of that.

I learned that in Asian universities, students take a midterm Exam and a Final exam in all their courses. All their grades revolve around taking exams, whereas in the US its exams mixed in with homework and some papers.

You are right and wrong about Chinese universities.

Some kids can slack off for the first 11 years of education and then do well in the grade 12 SATs to get into a good university.

However universities also accept tons of student that have consistent grade and don't look at the grade 12 SATs.

Post: #35

(01-14-2018 08:26 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I mean, if you build your entire culture around a collective sense of superiority (muh glorious past and 1001010101 year plan) you create a situation where if you don't fudge #s to keep up with more advanced nations then your people start looking around and questioning everything you've been saying.

We're at a point in the world where a lot of people are looking around, or better yet, looking down, and noticing that the conventional narrative is just that, and that there's nothing below propping them up.

Seems like China's no exception.

You have to keep your eyes on the prize, but the prize can't be greed.

Post: #36

(01-15-2018 05:16 PM)Arado Wrote:  snip

No worries, man. I always appreciate your contrarian take Hopefully we get to hang out more and discuss this in person like we have before.



I do agree with you that the average Chinese IQ is probably higher than the average IQ of many other nations. Some nations just had the "first mover" advantage of being in a certain location and having more resources. I think you once sent me something showing how quickly China is eliminating poverty and I can see that in real time, so I don't doubt the Chinese are smart. I'm just hesitant to say they're 100 on average. Anyway, No country has lifted this many people out of poverty this fast.

My girl's family were rice farmers a generation or two ago and now she has traveled around USA and Europe, gotten her master's and speaks 3-4 languages. Say what you will about China, but that shit is real progress. You might even say China has put her family further ahead in 30ish years than America has put my family in the 50 years post-civil rights movement. Not saying that to hate on America, but simply to demonstrate how quickly China is advancing portions of the population.

I do often hate and say that China fudges #s, but I would be lying if I said they're not trying their best to move ahead.

I actually do have to say China has surprised me a lot. I went to a teacher's meeting for my school district and they had hired a ton of black people. China gets a bad rep for being super racist, but my school district has a ton of Black English teachers. Clearly, resumes aren't be tossed out and some people are being evaluated on the strength of their resumes and not just on being blonde and blue-eyed. That did increase my respect for China. Sure, it's not that big of a deal, but that's also a decent sign of progress.

Anyway, I don't want people to mix my skeptical attitude up with a dismissive one. Asians are often smart and hardworking. Whether it's one or the other doesn't matter since they're both X-factor traits when it comes to success.

Post: #37

(01-13-2018 08:54 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  

(01-12-2018 08:48 PM)king bast Wrote:  Dont you find it just a little curious that asians that cant string 2 words of english together, magically develop impecable english reading and writing skills at test time, which then evaporate as quick as they came? Or is that another one of the things we're not supposed to notice about the wonders of diversity?

I don't consider Chinese particularly intelligent - they tend to learn what they need to learn to make money. Outside of that the average Chinese person doesn't have well rounded knowledge. I used to work with Chinese-American finance MBA who could calculate a mortgage in his head, but he didn't know what continent India or Iran was in - he claimed it was "specialised knowledge" to know that.

I've noticed this myself. I've noticed a lack of intellectual curiosity with East Asians, both FOBs and the more Westernized ones. There's no real love of learning for the sake of learning, rather something is only worth studying if it can lead to advancement in career or status. This applies to other activities that Asians are typically encouraged to do such as playing piano or violin; it's nothing something to do because music can enrich your life but because it makes your kid look accomplished. These kids can memorize information for a test but if you asked them why it is important to possess this knowledge outside of getting an A on an assignment I'm sure they would draw a blank.

Outside of academics, a lot of Asian Americans are successful but they typically get stuck in middle management or a position where they are making say low six figures, which is a good life outcome but at the same time, they aren't going to be the people coming up with the next game changing start-up. Developing the next big thing comes up with a big risk of total failure and most Asians are raised to be risk-averse, hence the emphasis on careers such as medicine and engineering where you are guaranteed a job that pays enough for a upper middle class existence but you aren't going to end up being a millionaire. Those sort of jobs are safe in that you can most likely get one as long as you are willing to put in the work for it. With high-risk high-reward opportunities you can do all the right things and still end up with nothing.

Post: #38

(01-15-2018 08:49 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

(01-15-2018 05:16 PM)Arado Wrote:  snip

No worries, man. I always appreciate your contrarian take Hopefully we get to hang out more and discuss this in person like we have before.



I do agree with you that the average Chinese IQ is probably higher than the average IQ of many other nations. Some nations just had the "first mover" advantage of being in a certain location and having more resources. I think you once sent me something showing how quickly China is eliminating poverty and I can see that in real time, so I don't doubt the Chinese are smart. I'm just hesitant to say they're 100 on average. Anyway, No country has lifted this many people out of poverty this fast.

My girl's family were rice farmers a generation or two ago and now she has traveled around USA and Europe, gotten her master's and speaks 3-4 languages. Say what you will about China, but that shit is real progress. You might even say China has put her family further ahead in 30ish years than America has put my family in the 50 years post-civil rights movement. Not saying that to hate on America, but simply to demonstrate how quickly China is advancing portions of the population.

I do often hate and say that China fudges #s, but I would be lying if I said they're not trying their best to move ahead.

I actually do have to say China has surprised me a lot. I went to a teacher's meeting for my school district and they had hired a ton of black people. China gets a bad rep for being super racist, but my school district has a ton of Black English teachers. Clearly, resumes aren't be tossed out and some people are being evaluated on the strength of their resumes and not just on being blonde and blue-eyed. That did increase my respect for China. Sure, it's not that big of a deal, but that's also a decent sign of progress.

Anyway, I don't want people to mix my skeptical attitude up with a dismissive one. Asians are often smart and hardworking. Whether it's one or the other doesn't matter since they're both X-factor traits when it comes to success.

Glad to see that you are seeing things far more objectively than most of the people who dismiss China because of some bad behavior they see from the locals. Ultimately, I don't think the specific IQ number really matters, it's how well they can get shit done relative to their geopolitical competitors - this is also dependent on culture, political system, personality, etc...

That girl sounds like a keeper, hopefully she still retains some traditional values from her family.