Post: #26

(12-12-2017 04:48 PM)Veloce Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 02:48 PM)Extinguished Light Wrote:  (((credit))) is the tool used to keep the American population enslaved, and through America's power the rest of the world as well.

Tell me again how I'm enslaved.

Could you quit your job tomorrow and leave the country for 6 months?

I think you are doing what you want to do but don't kid yourself. Those possesions (you don't actually own) own you, not the other way around.

Post: #27

^Well alternatively, he could wait till he's 62 to buy that dream home outright.

Freedom vs. Semi-immediate gratification. Given none of us are immortals, most will choose the later.

Post: #28

Most business owners can't leave their business tomorrow to leave the country for six months either. . . .

Post: #29

A "business owner" can be in a theoretically different situation.

But if you have debt and you toil away to pay that down every month so you can pay off your house in 30 years or your car in 5 you aren't exactly "free".

You are paying your way to freedom (assuming you don't accumulate more debt).

Of course you could always default, but then you have bad credit, so someone is enslaved to something in this scenario.

Post: #30

If you move to another country you still have to toil away to pay your rent there.

Maybe enslaved is the wrong word, all I see is your not location independent. Which don't get me wrong, location independence is always preferable.

Post: #31

I could leave for six months or more if I wanted, and I owe it all to good credit.

Once you understand that credit is not something you abuse to live over your head, but an excellent way to get you real financial freedom, you are a happy dude.

With the various mortgages and loans I have, I'm able to rent properties to folks, and pocket the difference that I don't owe the bank. Simple stuff.

I wish the youngsters would get on board with good credit when they turn 16. This however is not what the credit and banking industry want to happen, so I doubt they ever will.

Aloha!

Post: #32

I use to think like some posters here that credit was stupid and it was the way to slavery ...etc but then i started actually seeing good uses for it and that encouraged me to build up my credit and now i have really good credit.

If you're using credit to buy the latest iphone or the latest gadget or some depreciating asset then you're doing it wrong. But having good credit you use to build real assets are a must IMO. Especially for business owners.

Post: #33

(12-12-2017 05:39 PM)Fisto Wrote:  A "business owner" can be in a theoretically different situation.

But if you have debt and you toil away to pay that down every month so you can pay off your house in 30 years or your car in 5 you aren't exactly "free".

You are paying your way to freedom (assuming you don't accumulate more debt).

Of course you could always default, but then you have bad credit, so someone is enslaved to something in this scenario.

I'm curious how exactly you define freedom?

There's plenty of homeless people that are debt free. Nobody envies them.

Debt is not the bad guy. Without lines of credit, precious few could buy a home or start a business (in turn employing other people).

Without debt, we'd be stuck in the stone age. Debt is good.

Post: #34

(12-12-2017 05:46 PM)Kona Wrote:  I could leave for six months or more if I wanted, and I owe it all to good credit.

Once you understand that credit is not something you abuse to live over your head, but an excellent way to get you real financial freedom, you are a happy dude.

With the various mortgages and loans I have, I'm able to rent properties to folks, and pocket the difference that I don't owe the bank. Simple stuff.

I wish the youngsters would get on board with good credit when they turn 16. This however is not what the credit and banking industry want to happen, so I doubt they ever will.

Aloha!

This.

Credit is like a trap with bait laid well in advance of said trap all the way to the back of the cage.

If you have the smarts you just to eat the little bit of bait near the entrance.

The problem as ever is that both lenders and clients get too greedy. This leads to outcomes that can destroy nations slowly at first and then suddenly all in a rush.

Post: #35

Honestly, I'd be interested in zero credit bonds from central banks to cities and communities for infrastructure projects. I see no reason why such an arrangement couldn't exist. Probably something to do with crowding out local investors and the big banks.

Post: #36

Credit is fine if you're using it to build or expand a business. It's a tool that people can use to make more money and without the wise use of credit, many business owners would not have been able to become wealthy. Even auto loans, as long as you buy a reasonably priced used car and pay it off in 3 years, you'll be ok. That said, even as a business owner, it's easy to get overextended on credit, especially in America where it's given away like candy. Many businesses large and small fail because they expand too quickly and get in over their heads or their overhead eats them alive and they get maxed out on credit to pay all of their bills. Generally though, credit as a tool to make more money is fine.

Where most people fuck themselves with credit though is through consumer debt. Buying cars, homes etc that they can't afford, spending 1500.00 on bottle service in the club, expensive clothes, watches etc, this is the American nightmare. All fueled by easy credit.

Post: #37

In many places, you can't even get a job without a good credit standing. It means, you borrowed money and you never paid it back = theft.

Not to mention, in government jobs requiring a security clearance, bad credit is a huge red flag because it means outside sources (foreign intelligence agencies) have something to hold over you and therefore you can be recruited as a spy.

If you have your credit in good standing and on lock-down, there are all sorts of benefits. Lower interest rates on loans. No down payments required for services. All sorts of shit...

Post: #38

(12-12-2017 05:02 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 04:48 PM)Veloce Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 02:48 PM)Extinguished Light Wrote:  (((credit))) is the tool used to keep the American population enslaved, and through America's power the rest of the world as well.

Tell me again how I'm enslaved.

Could you quit your job tomorrow and leave the country for 6 months?

I think you are doing what you want to do but don't kid yourself. Those possesions (you don't actually own) own you, not the other way around.

Yes. I keep 6 months living expenses saved in cash. The only possessions that "own me" are the house (paid off in 7 years) and car (paid off in 4), it's not like I have a house full of toys n shit that I'm financing.

I'm not suggesting being like every other American that lives way beyond their means. I'm merely stating that credit is a tool like any other and it can (and should) be used responsibly.

Post: #39

It plays well with the investment system.

If you have a lot of liquid cash and good credit, you can take the stupid option and buy a car with a lump sum.

Or you can take the smart option and get a loan for the car, using your good credit score to secure a loan with low interest payments. Then you keep that lump sum of money in an investment with good stable long growth (index fund or ETF), and that growth is about 2-3x bigger than what you lose to interest on your loan.

Post: #40

(12-12-2017 04:48 PM)Veloce Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 02:48 PM)Extinguished Light Wrote:  (((credit))) is the tool used to keep the American population enslaved, and through America's power the rest of the world as well.

:eyeroll: not everything is a Jewish conspiracy, and I'm as critical against Jews as anyone.

Here's an example:

When I was younger and broke I didn't have any credit. I didn't have credit cards, I relied solely on cash and a debit card (same thing). I was broke as fuck, renting from (((landlords))), always behind, would get absolutely destroyed by a single parking ticket or other unexpected expense. Sleeping on a mattress, anything more than $10 eating out was a luxury for me, driving beat up used cars with no warranty that wound up costing me more than they're worth.

Now I'm older and not broke. I have credit. I use credit cards and pay the full balance every month. I haven't incurred a single finance charge in years. I live in a house with my name on it that builds equity every month, I have a million creature comforts that I didn't before, and have an ample cash cushion for unexpected expenses. Car was bought new and obviously under warranty with nary an expense in the last 18 months besides oil changes.

Yes, my income increased significantly over the last 10-15 years. But so did my credit allowance, which I take full advantage of. My quality of life has skyrocketed partially due to that credit.

Tell me again how I'm enslaved.

"The average American household carries $137,063 in debt, according to the Federal Reserve's latest numbers. Yet the U.S. Census Bureau reports that the median household income was just $59,039 last year, suggesting that many Americans are living beyond their means." USA Today, Nov 18, 2017

(((Credit))) is built to catch average chump into a spiral of debt. For every guy who has his stuff together and plays the system well, there's no doubt a handful or two, or three, who are up to their eyeballs in debt and paying interest on it.

Post: #41

(12-12-2017 05:02 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 04:48 PM)Veloce Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 02:48 PM)Extinguished Light Wrote:  (((credit))) is the tool used to keep the American population enslaved, and through America's power the rest of the world as well.

Tell me again how I'm enslaved.

Could you quit your job tomorrow and leave the country for 6 months?

I think you are doing what you want to do but don't kid yourself. Those possesions (you don't actually own) own you, not the other way around.

If that's what you value don't buy a house. Freedom is important but there are legitimate competitors, like family and stability. If you feel you've adventured and traveled enough and want to settle down in one place and maybe start a family, a mortgage often makes sense.

Post: #42

How does a mortgage make sense when you are obligated to make payments for thirty years and pay on average two and a half times what the home is worth? Not to mention if you get a divorce, in which case you're paying for something you aren't using. But I get what your saying nonetheless. The thought of telling your wife that you don't believe in home ownership does not seem like a pleasurable experience!

Post: #43

(12-12-2017 09:10 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 04:48 PM)Veloce Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 02:48 PM)Extinguished Light Wrote:  (((credit))) is the tool used to keep the American population enslaved, and through America's power the rest of the world as well.

:eyeroll: not everything is a Jewish conspiracy, and I'm as critical against Jews as anyone.

Here's an example:

When I was younger and broke I didn't have any credit. I didn't have credit cards, I relied solely on cash and a debit card (same thing). I was broke as fuck, renting from (((landlords))), always behind, would get absolutely destroyed by a single parking ticket or other unexpected expense. Sleeping on a mattress, anything more than $10 eating out was a luxury for me, driving beat up used cars with no warranty that wound up costing me more than they're worth.

Now I'm older and not broke. I have credit. I use credit cards and pay the full balance every month. I haven't incurred a single finance charge in years. I live in a house with my name on it that builds equity every month, I have a million creature comforts that I didn't before, and have an ample cash cushion for unexpected expenses. Car was bought new and obviously under warranty with nary an expense in the last 18 months besides oil changes.

Yes, my income increased significantly over the last 10-15 years. But so did my credit allowance, which I take full advantage of. My quality of life has skyrocketed partially due to that credit.

Tell me again how I'm enslaved.

"The average American household carries $137,063 in debt, according to the Federal Reserve's latest numbers. Yet the U.S. Census Bureau reports that the median household income was just $59,039 last year, suggesting that many Americans are living beyond their means." USA Today, Nov 18, 2017

(((Credit))) is built to catch average chump into a spiral of debt. For every guy who has his stuff together and plays the system well, there's no doubt a handful or two, or three, who are up to their eyeballs in debt and paying interest on it.

I understand all that. I fully realize there's a shitload of Americans that are up to their eyeballs in debt...otherwise there wouldn't be so many debt consolidation companies.

That said, quoting a statistic that average Americans carry such and such debt isn't any kind of metric if their assets far outweigh their debt. You can have a net worth of well over $1 mil and carry hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt.

Post: #44

Also, the "quality of life" we're talking about here with regards to owning a home isn't CJ Anderson's tan skin, it's having a yard for your son to play ball with his friends, a separate room for all his toys and shit, and a good school district for him. It's not having to hear strangers in the apartment above you stumbling home at 2:00am and clomping around while you're trying to sleep. It's having a garage to park your car so you don't have to unload groceries in the wind and rain.

If you can pull that off without a mortgage, more power to you, but I think most working men interested in settling down to raise a family need to finance it. Sure, maybe people tend to spend a bit more on luxuries than is really necessary, but usually the priorities are the kitchen and furniture in the main living area, those are spaces that people who own houses tend to use heavily in day to day life. Features like granite counters and quality appliances last a long time and improve the resale value of the home.

If you're not interested in settling down, then a mortgage might not be the best idea (although even then, depending on the plans for the mid-to-long term future, buying a home can make financial sense)

Post: #45

(12-12-2017 09:29 PM)Conquistador Wrote:  How does a mortgage make sense when you are obligated to make payments for thirty years and pay on average two and a half times what the home is worth? Not to mention if you get a divorce, in which case you're paying for something you aren't using. But I get what your saying nonetheless. The thought of telling your wife that you don't believe in home ownership does not seem like a pleasurable experience!

Well, if you finance a home whose payment is well below your means you can make extra payments against the principal and get the place paid off in 10 years and never pay rent again for the rest of your life. Just property tax. So it makes plenty of sense.

The problem I see is a demographic shift of young people to urban areas where homeownership simply isn't an option, so they get into their 30s and 40s and they're still renting despite making over $60,000 per year. But that's none of my business, totally on them.

Post: #46

(12-12-2017 09:29 PM)Conquistador Wrote:  How does a mortgage make sense when you are obligated to make payments for thirty years and pay on average two and a half times what the home is worth? Not to mention if you get a divorce, in which case you're paying for something you aren't using. But I get what your saying nonetheless. The thought of telling your wife that you don't believe in home ownership does not seem like a pleasurable experience!

Divorce-rape is a real risk. Nothing I'm saying should be construed to suggest that men have any obligation to get married and have children if they don't want to, or don't want to take the risk of losing it all.

As for the financial issues: decisions like this aren't made in a vacuum. Yes, money paid in interest is gone, and property taxes as well, which can be brutal. But over a 30-year period, cash lost to interest payments usually won't amount to more than what you would have paid in rent, usually for a much lower quality home.

The important question is: how do you want to spend those 30 years of your life? There are multiple valid answers but as Teep joked earlier in the thread, if you know you want to own a home, it usually doesn't make sense to spend 30 years saving up for it, when financing is an option.

Post: #47

When did I ever say debt was bad, that credit was bad, or that I don't understand how it works?

I said when you have obligations that keep you from being able to leave then you aren't exactly "free".

Projecting harder than a newfound sjw trying to fit in.

Post: #48

(12-12-2017 06:50 PM)Veloce Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 05:02 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 04:48 PM)Veloce Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 02:48 PM)Extinguished Light Wrote:  (((credit))) is the tool used to keep the American population enslaved, and through America's power the rest of the world as well.

Tell me again how I'm enslaved.

Could you quit your job tomorrow and leave the country for 6 months?

I think you are doing what you want to do but don't kid yourself. Those possesions (you don't actually own) own you, not the other way around.

Yes. I keep 6 months living expenses saved in cash. The only possessions that "own me" are the house (paid off in 7 years) and car (paid off in 4), it's not like I have a house full of toys n shit that I'm financing.

I'm not suggesting being like every other American that lives way beyond their means. I'm merely stating that credit is a tool like any other and it can (and should) be used responsibly.

That's really surprising. Almost unbelievable. You just bought that house and only 7 years left? Damn nice work.

Post: #49

Credit measures how likely you are to repay your debts on assets you don't actually own. It's become so ingrained the American mentality that it manifests itself as a measure of worth as a person. It's a metric of trustworthiness to repay loans to a nameless faceless corporation that doesn't have your best interests in mind. It's become such a facet to American life that most can't imagine a life without it.

We're not talking about borrowing rent money from a friend and promising to pay a few dollars extra for the inconvenience. We're talking about a risk that is so calculated it's not even a risk to the people lending. The people that pay debts on time in full are subsiding the people who don't. It's preying on the people with hope and subsidizing it with people who play the game by the rules.

Don't get in debt. It's modern slavery. It's not that you don't understand the terms or you willingly ignorant. It's just a bad deal. It's money for nothing.

Post: #50

(12-13-2017 12:15 AM)Fisto Wrote:  When did I ever say debt was bad, that credit was bad, or that I don't understand how it works?

I said when you have obligations that keep you from being able to leave then you aren't exactly "free".

Projecting harder than a newfound sjw trying to fit in.

It was a good point. My intended counterpoint was merely that the obligations holding someone to a place often aren't the possessions but the relationships and other life goals.