Post: #126

(09-06-2017 11:11 AM)Ringo Wrote:  I can't see myself using a cocktail of steroids at any point down the road. But a low dosage of testosterone seems like a good option even if my levels aren't necessarily low.

Exactly, this is what I have always done and NEVER had any problems.

Sadly, I know some guys who take way more than the norm and have never come off the stuff.

That isn't going to end well for them.

Post: #127

(09-06-2017 10:27 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  ^^^Ok, so I will bite to your stupid claims.

I took mostly Sustanon 250, do your "research" and you will see it is a combination of different Testosterone compounds. Why I liked taking this particular steroid is because you only have to poke once a week.

Health risk is increased blood pressure, which is a concern for me.
I don't have any other concerns about my long term health, I go to the doctor and I get checked annually. Yes, that includes the finger up the ass because I am off that age.
I know my body, last time my uric acid was high and I know that was due to certain foods I was eating.
I don't need to get constant blood work, I get it done with my annual check up.

I don't take any other drugs that includes clomid at the end of a cycle. I don't mix Test with anything else, my first cycle I mixed with Trenbolone and I was a monster (physically & mentally).

My balls don't shrink, in fact my dick gets bigger and I shoot like a hose.

My natural T always goes back to it's normal level.

I don't get acne and I don't have issues about getting bigger.

For me it is a turbo boost and I get a little ego boost from the visible results.

It has been stated on different threads, but again I will repeat it.
Once you get to the 200llb mark and it is visible you workout, women will touch you more. I have had strippers grab me like a piece of meat, even when I was covered up.
I have had Asian girls grab my ass in a club while I walked by.

Interactions with females just moves much smoother, don't get it twisted they aren't grabbing my cock and blowing me on the spot.

Now for those who are against it, that is your right and your choice.

Being small or skinny isn't an option, having a belly isn't attractive and looking like you can't handle yourself in a fight isn't cool.

The kind of women I like, tend to like dudes with good builds.

Rudebwoy I don't doubt the positive effects with women, because even though I'm natural and still fairly small, as I've gained some size again recently I've noticed some very positive reactions from women. I'm just wondering whether for you personally when you've been at your natural peak, are women's reactions a lot different to when your on steroids?

Post: #128

^Good question and to be honest, it is a fine line between me being natural and on gear.

The extra 5-7llbs of "muscle" I get from Test, makes me feel great and I honestly feel girls can smell the Test on you.

However, it took me almost 20 years to get to this size and weight. I was a skinny soccer player before I started training.

As a guy who is almost 50, I don't know if I really want a sex drive of a 18 year boy all the time.

Post: #129

(09-06-2017 09:39 AM)MikeS Wrote:  

(09-05-2017 07:15 PM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  

(09-02-2017 02:29 PM)Sidney Crosby Wrote:  I wouldn't even want to look like that guy.

When I'm 30+, I'd consider something like TRT if I was on the low side.

Legit question, What are the reasons not to do TRT?

I'm 40 and I don't think I would consider using TRT until I legitimately start feeling effects of low T (it's been my impression that quite a lot of TRT proponents in their 30s or 40s are probably in the average range but, understandably, want a boost towards the natural max range. It's not like testosterone for the average man drops like a rock once you hit middle age, graphs I've seen of the decline suggests it's something like 1% per year after 30).

My main reason - aside from having no idea yet how easy it may or may not be to get it prescribed here in Europe (lots of the first hand experiences appear to be from Americans, although I might have overlooked something there?) - is that from what I understand you should expect your natural testosterone production to be shut down for good.
It's not guaranteed that you will be able to get off TRT - if for some reason that became necessary - and end up back at your previous low to mid T.

So you are then essentially in need of testosterone from cooperative doctors and pharmacies for the rest of your life - which if you're only 30 or 40 is, statistically, quite a long time.
What if you travel a lot, or move to another country (as I have done once and could very well do again in the future one or several times)? Are you guaranteed to find the needed cooperation everywhere you go?
If not, then I guess there's always the black market, but that's most definitely not something I would be eager to delve into for years or decades of my life for crucial medicine.

Good post Mike, geography is an important distinction to make as it has a big impact on the options available to you. It's a lot easier to get on and stay on TRT in the states than it is here in the UK. Here your choices are limited to trying to get it on the NHS which is by all accounts very difficult, using gel treatments which I've heard are not as effective, or trying to get it on the black market which makes it a much riskier proposition, both in terms of quality and long term availability.

I don't think it's any coincidence that the proponents of TRT on this thread are from across the pond.

Post: #130

^ Dude wtf? arnt the steroid laws in Uk a lot better than the USA.

Couldnt you guys get access to Eastern European pharma quality products without much legal trouble?

Post: #131

(09-06-2017 11:11 AM)Ringo Wrote:  I can't see myself using a cocktail of steroids at any point down the road. But a low dosage of testosterone seems like a good option even if my levels aren't necessarily low.

Physical attributes aside, I'm very interested in the mental clearness and extra energy that is associated with it. Maybe in a few years.

I would consider this myself if my levels were low, or if I suffered from symptoms of low test long term. However it would have to be available from a legal medical source long term to be a viable option.

It's worth pointing out that this thread was not about TRT.

The OP stated that the dude in the pic was taking Test, some orals - superdrol, anadrol, winstrol, anavar, Trenbolone A, Masteron and Fat loss stuff (clen, t3, etc.) solely to build his physique.

This is not the same as being on TRT. The debate has gotten a bit twisted.

The guys who are advocating steroid use appear to be posting in the context of being on TRT, whereas the guys opposed to steroid use are thinking in the context of the whole complement of steroids being abused by the dude in the pic and others like him.

Post: #132

(09-06-2017 04:32 PM)sonoran_ Wrote:  ^ Dude wtf? arnt the steroid laws in Uk a lot better than the USA.

Couldnt you guys get access to Eastern European pharma quality products without much legal trouble?

I don't know, I've never looked into it. But I don't think having to source it from overseas would be ideal, this would introduce potential issues with customs (or maybe not, maybe someone can comment) and would raise a question over it being available long term if something changed.

Post: #133

(09-06-2017 02:28 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  ^Good question and to be honest, it is a fine line between me being natural and on gear.

The extra 5-7llbs of "muscle" I get from Test, makes me feel great and I honestly feel girls can smell the Test on you.

However, it took me almost 20 years to get to this size and weight. I was a skinny soccer player before I started training.

As a guy who is almost 50, I don't know if I really want a sex drive of a 18 year boy all the time.

Interesting. Yeah 5-7 pounds of solid muscle is a lot though and I can see it being enough to push you over that edge with girls, especially with some distributed to the areas steroids are known to have particularly good affects on (delts, traps and upper chest). My long term goals (while staying natural), are to gain just another 5 pounds of muscle, and drop maybe 3 pounds of fat - sounds like nothing, but from where I am now it's going to be pretty hard, and would be the icing on the cake and about as good as I can expect to get naturally I imagine.

Post: #134

(09-06-2017 04:41 PM)Lagavulin Wrote:  

(09-06-2017 04:32 PM)sonoran_ Wrote:  ^ Dude wtf? arnt the steroid laws in Uk a lot better than the USA.

Couldnt you guys get access to Eastern European pharma quality products without much legal trouble?

I don't know, I've never looked into it. But I don't think having to source it from overseas would be ideal, this would introduce potential issues with customs (or maybe not, maybe someone can comment) and would raise a question over it being available long term if something changed.

Yes, it's easy to order from various European countries, I've never had an issue with customs.

Post: #135

TRT makes perfect sense for anyone over 35, or with clinically diagnosed low T, I think most people in this thread would agree with that. From what I've heard its a real life changer, and is something I would imagine I'll definitely end up on in a few years. For competition level bodybuilders, or those engaging in a competitive sport where its not tested for, steroid use also makes sense as a "professional tool" thats pretty much required to compete at the top level.

Its the heavy steroid cycles that amateur guys do in their 20s that are far more questionable. Its entirely possible to be in the top 5% in English speaking countries (or top 1%, in a lot of other countries) in terms of physique while natural. At that point you're already dominating rooms, getting girls pawing you, guys respecting you etc - there's no need to use steroids to reach that point. Thats what would make me question the need for someone in their 20s engaging in:

- The extra hassle (injections, obtaining illegal supplies, limiting your travel options due to timing/drug transport issues with airports)
- The financial cost
- The potential health negatives (acne, balding, fertility issues etc)
etc

Most guys who take steroids at this age are taking them either to a) take a short cut or b) compensate for imperfect diet/training/lifestyle. Think Jersey Shore. These are the guys who really shouldn't be doing steroids, as in addition to it being unnecessary they're far more likely to fuck themselves up long-term by taking the steroids incorrectly.

I don't use steroids personally currently because I don't see the point, given the above. I vary from 210lbs-220lbs depending on time of year (winter/summer cut) at 6ft0. It took me years to get here, but I did it naturally and enjoyed both the learning and work process along the way. Doing steroids would definitely allow me to get bigger, but I already get plenty of attention based on my physique. And I'd lose cardio performance pretty quickly with more size, which is a definite concern. So the risk/cost/benefit analysis isn't worth it.

Post: #136

(09-07-2017 06:29 AM)zatara Wrote:  TRT makes perfect sense for anyone over 35...

I sometimes wonder just how young people making statements like that might be? I've seen them before - "get on TRT after 30/40", "you'll be in a nursing home by 40 if you don't start on TRT" (all right, I might have made up that second one).
Only someone in their teens or first half of their twenties can possibly think that you start feeling old and weak already at 40, let alone 30 - assuming you don't have a medical condition (which low T at that age would probably qualify as) or are lazy as fuck.

At 40 my joints are significantly more prone to minor injuries and pains than they were just five years ago (which is why I now do more calisthenics than lifting) and my sex drive is not quite as 24/7 turbo boosted as when I was a teenager, but other than that I feel damn fine and my body looks and is more fit than it has been at most points in my life (and I wasn't particularly lazy when I was younger).

Kids, life doesn't end at 40.

Post: #137

(09-07-2017 07:11 AM)MikeS Wrote:  I sometimes wonder just how young people making statements like that might be? I've seen them before - "get on TRT after 30/40", "you'll be in a nursing home by 40 if you don't start on TRT" (all right, I might have made up that second one).
Only someone in their teens or first half of their twenties can possibly think that you start feeling old and weak already at 40, let alone 30 - assuming you don't have a medical condition (which low T at that age would probably qualify as) or are lazy as fuck.

At 40 my joints are significantly more prone to minor injuries and pains than they were just five years ago (which is why I now do more calisthenics than lifting) and my sex drive is not quite as 24/7 turbo boosted as when I was a teenager, but other than that I feel damn fine and my body looks and is more fit than it has been at most points in my life (and I wasn't particularly lazy when I was younger).

Kids, life doesn't end at 40.

I'm in my very late 20s. I've played competitive rugby to a varying level since I was a teenager, and I've noticed both a drop-off in speed and an increase in recovery time already, personally. This is completely in-line with what sports science would predict. By the time I'm 35 (or 40) theres no way I'll be capable of sustaining a similar level of performance without substantial chemical assistance. And even with that there will be big changes required.

Its possible that you might be a very rare exception, but in general peak exercise performance has started to drop-off for almost all men by age 30. By age 35 there will have been a large decrease in performance in both strength and cardio. There are a vanishingly small number of men who at age 40 can out-lift, out-run, and out-compete their 26 year old self.*

To be clear, I'm not saying life ends at 35. I'm saying that going on TRT from that age on-wards makes sense for a lot of men, because its likely most mens natural test levels will have started to dip noticeably by that stage.

*presuming their training has been consistent across the years. If they were a 26 year old lard ass and only started training in their 30s this obviously doesn't apply.

Post: #138

A lot of men aren't having kids until their 40's so TRT doesn't make any sense until after that.

Post: #139

Of course, life doesn't end after 40, but expecting to perform at the same level (physically) might be a tall order for some men. I do know some guys in their 40s who are natty and say they have had no drop off in libido or trouble keeping off fat, so it is possible.

Generally, there is no one-size-fits-all approach to this stuff. A few of my friends have low-T but absolutely no symptoms and feel fine. Some people are just different. My approach is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." TRT should be a solution, not just something you do because you're afraid of a fall off, IMO. I do know some guys who did it preventatively and they've aged very well. Totally alpha guys who started at 29-31 and are now in their forties and look late 20s/early 30s.

That's why I never say "YOU NEED TO GET ON TRT!" Do what you want.

Post: #140

(09-07-2017 08:00 AM)zatara Wrote:  

(09-07-2017 07:11 AM)MikeS Wrote:  I sometimes wonder just how young people making statements like that might be? I've seen them before - "get on TRT after 30/40", "you'll be in a nursing home by 40 if you don't start on TRT" (all right, I might have made up that second one).
Only someone in their teens or first half of their twenties can possibly think that you start feeling old and weak already at 40, let alone 30 - assuming you don't have a medical condition (which low T at that age would probably qualify as) or are lazy as fuck.

At 40 my joints are significantly more prone to minor injuries and pains than they were just five years ago (which is why I now do more calisthenics than lifting) and my sex drive is not quite as 24/7 turbo boosted as when I was a teenager, but other than that I feel damn fine and my body looks and is more fit than it has been at most points in my life (and I wasn't particularly lazy when I was younger).

Kids, life doesn't end at 40.

I'm in my very late 20s. I've played competitive rugby to a varying level since I was a teenager, and I've noticed both a drop-off in speed and an increase in recovery time already, personally. This is completely in-line with what sports science would predict. By the time I'm 35 (or 40) theres no way I'll be capable of sustaining a similar level of performance without substantial chemical assistance. And even with that there will be big changes required.

Its possible that you might be a very rare exception, but in general peak exercise performance has started to drop-off for almost all men by age 30. By age 35 there will have been a large decrease in performance in both strength and cardio. There are a vanishingly small number of men who at age 40 can out-lift, out-run, and out-compete their 26 year old self.*

To be clear, I'm not saying life ends at 35. I'm saying that going on TRT from that age on-wards makes sense for a lot of men, because its likely most mens natural test levels will have started to dip noticeably by that stage.

*presuming their training has been consistent across the years. If they were a 26 year old lard ass and only started training in their 30s this obviously doesn't apply.

True, if you plan on a competition level in sports then I'm certainly not going to argue that I at 40 would be able to compete with guys 15 or 20 years younger in equivalent shape (ie. equivalent activity levels).

But staying in great shape for every day benefits should certainly be possibly for most people my age and higher, provided they don't have genuinely low T levels (I doubt I'm higher than mid range, based on the athletic but far from heavily muscled physique I've been able to build over many years of lifting. My FFMI is just under 22, the line between above average and excellent. With recent diet and exercise changes I hope to be able to put on a few more kilos of lean mass, but more than that is probably not realistic without a T "boost").
Some people can obviously also potentially be in even better shape than when they were younger if they happen to be more active at a later age than when they were younger. I walk substantially more now for instance - 5-10 km on an average day, unless there's a snow storm - including mountain hikes, and other workouts are at roughly similar intensity and frequency as when I was much younger.
But yes, I also did lift heavier at 18 - after three years of working out - than I did even before my joints started complaining a few years ago, after 20+ years of working out.
I still consider myself in overall better shape now though. And the leanest I've been since my early twenties.

Post: #141

(09-07-2017 07:11 AM)MikeS Wrote:  

(09-07-2017 06:29 AM)zatara Wrote:  TRT makes perfect sense for anyone over 35...

I sometimes wonder just how young people making statements like that might be? I've seen them before - "get on TRT after 30/40", "you'll be in a nursing home by 40 if you don't start on TRT" (all right, I might have made up that second one).
Only someone in their teens or first half of their twenties can possibly think that you start feeling old and weak already at 40, let alone 30 - assuming you don't have a medical condition (which low T at that age would probably qualify as) or are lazy as fuck.

At 40 my joints are significantly more prone to minor injuries and pains than they were just five years ago (which is why I now do more calisthenics than lifting) and my sex drive is not quite as 24/7 turbo boosted as when I was a teenager, but other than that I feel damn fine and my body looks and is more fit than it has been at most points in my life (and I wasn't particularly lazy when I was younger).

Kids, life doesn't end at 40.

My dad is 70 and would still crush 95% of the people I come across. He has some aches and pains from old injuries, and the scars of a practical man, but he is still fit and strong. He can chainsaw all afternoon, split logs for a couple of hours, reroof a house, all this sort of stuff that a lot of men a third of his age would struggle with. He still has powerful arms and a lean physique, and plenty of aggression and grit left in him. Leaving aside that he is my father, there are few men I'd less like to fight. He may not be what he once was physically, but these things are relative, and the idea that your Testosterone MUST tank and your experience of life MUST be more limited past the relatively young age of 40 is absurd.

If you eat well and moderately, remain mentally and physically active, go easy on the sauce, and stubbornly refuse to accept any diminution of your manliness, then it is possible to enjoy a great deal of vitality and vibrant masculinity well into your older years without any supplementation.

Post: #142

At the end of the day this question really boils down to what you value in life and your risk tolerance. Running moderate amounts of steroids (lets say 500-1000mg of test or a low dose of tren) is most likely healthier than being a moderate drinker/smoker. Side effects are rare and unless you have a genetic predisposition towards something unlikely to be a major issue.

If one is complaining about the "hassle" of pinning every couple days or getting blood work done than I really don't know what to say. I spend less than 5 minutes a week doing it. Most steroids are extremely cheap and less expensive than whey protein so I don't get why people complain about cost either.

For some people its worth it, for others it is not.

Post: #143

(09-07-2017 08:36 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  A lot of men aren't having kids until their 40's so TRT doesn't make any sense until after that.

HCG

I personally prefer the Rat piss variant.

Post: #144

(09-06-2017 07:08 AM)Clint Barton Wrote:  What's considered "normal" today was considered low in past generations. A total T level of 264 ng/Dl is considered normal today. There's a war against men, and testosterone is a big part of being a man.

^^ never mentioned the pros of well being, better cardiovascular health, better sexual function, increased confidence and aggression.

Or just a bunch of lazy, post hippie "feel good" baby boomer doctors that don't really care. Or that it doesn't sit right with whatever particular religion that doctor practices, etc. Mostly a problem in the US, particularly interior midwest, southeast and rural areas. For the most part a good doctor can steer you in the right direction.

Post: #145

I think the only fair answer is side effects and long term side effects.

Post: #146

I am on 2 ml of Testosterone Propionate divided into two, 1 ml doses per week. Low and consistent doses are sustainable over a mans entire life. With no ill effects. No "cycles" or excessive amounts since I am not a professional athlete. Starting TRT and maintaining a testosterone level of 850-950 is easily the best decision of my adult life. Problems start, as with anything, with overuse/misuse/abuse.

Relevant thread -> /thread-28966...pid1040085

Post: #147

(09-07-2017 09:13 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  If you eat well and moderately, remain mentally and physically active, go easy on the sauce, and stubbornly refuse to accept any diminution of your manliness, then it is possible to enjoy a great deal of vitality and vibrant masculinity well into your older years without any supplementation.

Aging and its side effects can either be seen as an inevitable part of getting older, or it can be seen as a chronic disease that can and should be treated both preventively and palliatively. Y'all need to figure out what side of the fence you are on with this and make your decisions accordingly. And with regards to gear for gainz, well, it's a personal choice, and needs to be taken with the utmost respect for the potential side effects. You need to do your own research and be your own doctor.

As for me, I see aging as a chronic condition. Men in my family haven't had good track records of personal health in their later years. I'm aiming to change that lineage.

I already eat healthier and better than 80+% of guys my age, know my supplements and nootropics, and will continue to invest in my health. I'm no gorilla in the gym, but my gainz are coming along, and I will hit my goals in a matter of time. And I already have blood work as a baseline that I will maintain annually.

Personally, I'm in no rush to get on TRT or HGH, but I will consider a measured approach down the line once I find my levels below 500 and on the other side of 30. I'll have my natural gains and diet already locked in, and I will tackle it in a responsible manner with longevity and sustainability in mind.

I want to be able to walk around looking similar to Stallone when I'm pushing 70:


Your health in your 50s and 60s is based on your decisions in your 20s, 30s, and 40s...so make the right decisions.

Post: #148

(09-08-2017 07:57 AM)Kwisatz Wrote:  I am on 2 ml of Testosterone Propionate divided into two, 1 ml doses per week. Low and consistent doses are sustainable over a mans entire life. With no ill effects. No "cycles" or excessive amounts since I am not a professional athlete. Starting TRT and maintaining a testosterone level of 850-950 is easily the best decision of my adult life. Problems start, as with anything, with overuse/misuse/abuse.

Relevant thread -> /thread-28966...pid1040085

1ml per week is not a low dose if it equates to 250mgs. I know everyone is different when it comes to TRT protocols, but that's half of a typical "cycle" dosage per week. What is your Testosterone level when on that dosage?

I pin .33mls every 3 days (sub q in the gut) which is .77mls/192.5mgs a week and am 5 weeks post a 12 week cycle. I'll do bloods in a week or so to see how I'm travelling. I may be pinning too much, particularly if it comes in at well over 1000 ng/dl. For reference, my cycle put me at 2,700 ng/dl on 500mgs of test enenthate per week.

Post: #149

Lifestyle has so much to do with how you work and feel. Whenever I'm in Puerto Rico, where I do a lot of work outside for various reasons, I get stronger, more energetic, slimmer, and genuinely healthier in literally every regard. The sun combined with an active lifestyle just activates something in me that gets me to a very healthy and happy state. I experience something similar when I'm chilling about in Italy.

So first people really need to look at their lifestyle. Are they really giving their bodies a chance to thrive like they should? Maybe for some people it's not an option to change their lifestyle, but it may be more sustainable to totally change your environment than poke yourself for the rest of your life.

Basically, give your body a chance before you get on TRT. This forum has definitely softened my hesitation towards TRT, but because I KNOW how much a difference certain environment can have on my physical well being, I will first just move somewhere with healthy food and and plenty of outside stuff, little internet, and live well. I see lots of old dudes in Puerto Rico who are in incredible shape. Not that many people are jacked, but they are slender, highly toned, energetic, and happy. Puerto Rico has a huge cross-section of races and I see it with all of them.

Changing your lifestyle needs to be more than just eating better and taking some supps. Look at everything from the stress of your job, how much you sit down, relationships, how much are you walking, time outside, all that stuff. Very important.

Post: #150

(09-09-2017 08:56 AM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  Lifestyle has so much to do with how you work and feel.

Basically, give your body a chance before you get on TRT. This forum has definitely softened my hesitation towards TRT, but because I KNOW how much a difference certain environment can have on my physical well being, I will first just move somewhere with healthy food and and plenty of outside stuff, little internet, and live well. I see lots of old dudes in Puerto Rico who are in incredible shape. Not that many people are jacked, but they are slender, highly toned, energetic, and happy. Puerto Rico has a huge cross-section of races and I see it with all of them.

This is my stance as well. I wont deride any men making the choice to increase their health and virility, its none of my business. In fact making the choice to do so is admirable, as many men are ok with mediocracy.

I do however think the science of understanding of how the decrease/increase happens naturally is still very vague. I think its one part environment, the other genetics. And fully understanding these factors, to me, will allow men to mitigate their decline even more in the future. Even though I don't know how I would feel with TRT, I am sure I will take advantage of it at a later age.