Post: #1

I have just heard a very troubling story from a local activist I have known for many years. He is married and has a ten-year-old stepdaughter with his wife. The girl touched a cactus, and her ring finger got infected. They showed me a picture of it, and it looked like a large boil.

To be on the safe side, they decided to take her to the emergency room to have it checked out. It happened to be Independence Day weekend. They waited seven hours to see a doctor.

When they finally got to see a doctor, the doctor said they "wanted to blast it out of there." They refused the procedure because they considered it invasive. They wanted a minimal procedure. They refused surgery and took her home.

About 45 minutes after they got home, the authorities showed up. They entered their home without knocking. It was a police officer and a bureaucrat from Child Protective Services. Then two people from EMS showed up, and they said they weren't qualified to tell if it was an emergency or not. They said the girl would have to go back to the hospital.

More police officers showed up, including a supervisor of the officers. During this, the girl went outside without her shoes. The stepfather told her to go back into the house to get her shoes. The officer said she couldn't go back into the house. The girl got taken back to a hospital an hour away. One of the officers knew the stepfather, so they allowed the stepfather to go with her in the ambulance.

So, they went back to the hospital. It was a hot summer day, about 97. The girl was also getting dehydrated in the ambulance, and they had no water. The girl has a kidney disorder and requires lots of water. She went about two hours without water during the whole ordeal.

She had surgery on her finger, and it is permanently deformed. The mother also said that three cops threw her to the ground during the whole ideal.

Their daughter is still in the foster system. They have a hearing on 14 September, and they might get their girl back.

The mother is also being forced to take drug tests and other "services" like "anger management."

So, this is what happens when you refuse unnecessary surgery. It was an abscess that was draining. The girl probably would have been just fine after a few days.

Post: #2

My family had a similar situation while I was growing up with one of my siblings where my own family, having a professional background, disagreed with the doctors desired course of action.

In these situations the key is to not fight alone. Make sure that you are part of HSLDA or some other organization that is equipped to fight this kind of thing. For us the social worker backed down very quickly as soon as we put them on the phone with an HSLDA lawyer.

Post: #3

Everybody's a medical expert now, I guess.

The four years the emergency room MD spent in medical school, his internship and residency, and the $200k+ he paid in tuition was a total waste. Anyone can know better than him.

Post: #4

(08-19-2017 12:16 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Everybody's a medical expert now, I guess.

The four years the emergency room MD spent in medical school, his internship and residency, and the $200k+ he paid in tuition was a total waste. Anyone can know better than him.

Yes, and the doctor needs all the unnecessary operations he can get so he can pay off all those debts.

Post: #5

^ Misses or hides point Sp5. The girl is not the property of the Doctor or the State and the family has the absolute moral right to decide what they want done even if they are "wrong" according to the highly educated doctor you mention above.

Post: #6

You have to be a real piece of shit to work for the government these days.

Post: #7

In Eastern Europe most people know that it is dangerous to raise children in West, because they can be confiscated for any trivial shit.

In Scandinavian Monarchies - Norway and Sweden it is even written in their unholy constitution that all children are property of the King. So they can be confiscated - just because government likes it so. Usually of course some small justification is found - like a parent raising his voice on children.

In Russia they suspect it is mostly to supply the demand for homosexuals and single parents to adopt children therefore they prohibited adaption to western countries.

I personally believe it is not always to adopt a child to homosexuals. It is to create government drones and to force parents to comply with letting governments brainwash children. To destroy families and culture.

Western people (yes including you Americans) also love to snitch on each other to Government which means if you get accused by your neighbor unjustly you might fight an upwards battle proving your innocence. This is because Westerners mostly have delusional trust in their government and authorities.

In Eastern Europe and Russia, people don't snitch each other to government, because people remember Soviet times and are suspicious of authorities and government. In soviet times snitches were quietly murdered in the middle of night by the community. In Eastern Europe ad Russia people feel obliged to make an objection or a warning to the person doing wrong first, before reporting to authorities. This is for things like playing loud music, littering or hitting your child. In western countries people don't warn their peers, they contact government immediately. Like this piece of shit doctor who didn't tell he will contact authorities if parents refuse surgeries. This is why I have little sympathy for most westerners. In EE neither a neighbor nor a doctor would probably snitch to a government about parents not undergoing surgery and even if a doctor would do it as part of his professional duties, the Government would be more trying to reason with parents rather then taking children away with force as the first option.

Post: #8

(08-19-2017 12:25 AM)puckerman Wrote:  

(08-19-2017 12:16 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Everybody's a medical expert now, I guess.

The four years the emergency room MD spent in medical school, his internship and residency, and the $200k+ he paid in tuition was a total waste. Anyone can know better than him.

Yes, and the doctor needs all the unnecessary operations he can get so he can pay off all those debts.

Be honest. You have no idea whether the surgery was unnecessary or life-saving. Your innuendo means nothing. You weren't there, and you aren't a physician.

Even a cursory search of the internet reveals the dangers of cutaneous e.coli and staph infections, including organ failures, "flesh-eating" infections that require limb amputations, and death.

The "large boil" was serious enough to cause an emergency room trip, wasn't it?

(08-19-2017 12:28 AM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  ^ Misses or hides point Sp5. The girl is not the property of the Doctor or the State and the family has the absolute moral right to decide what they want done even if they are "wrong" according to the highly educated doctor you mention above.

The child is not the "property" of the parents, either. The parents do not have an "absolute moral right" to deny needed medical care to their child. The guardianship of the parents does not extend to the denial of life-saving medical care. The principle is well-established in cases of Jehovah's Witnesses and others who would deny blood transfusions and other care to their children.

The OP says the parents are "activists." What kind? You don't get to sacrifice your kid on the altar of your "activism."

Another case of "activist" attention-whoring and shit-stirring. Also sounds like the parents want a lawsuit $$$$.

Post: #9

They went to the emergency room because it was Independence Day weekend. While I didn't ask them for specifics, I assume that a regular doctor was not available. It sounds like the people at the emergency room did not deem it serious since they waited for about seven hours to see a doctor. Another fact is that the girl's temperature was normal.

I don't understand why issues like this don't come up on this board more often. If this is a site that is pro-family, then I would hope that the men on this board would be absolutely appalled by this.

When I was a child, I had friends who had broken arms. Their parents took them to a doctor or a hospital. They got what they needed, and there was no hassle.

Nowadays, when kids break bones, the parents are given the third, the fourth, and the fifth degree. They are treated as guilty until proven innocent. These people have to find crimes in order to justify their jobs.

Because of stuff like this, parents are going to be less likely to take their kids to the doctor when they do need medical attention. The lesson learned from this was: don't take your kids to the emergency room. I wonder how many kids will die because parents stop taking their kids to the hospital and the doctor, since these people can't be trusted.

Many doctors also want their patients to get second opinions before having a surgery. The doctors have enough confidence in their abilities that they don't need to coerce patients. If you have a good product or service, why do you need to get them using coercion.

The activist is involved with the local Republican Party. He has run for local offices. He doesn't want this kind of attention. He said that I could post about it on the Net, but he didn't want any names mentioned.

Post: #10

Pro-tip. If you have any interaction with "the authorities" beyond the bounds of your home then have a plan not to be home for the next few days.

The fuckwits tire of knocking on the door of an empty house after 24 hours.

And try to be on good terms with your neighbours. If the assholes come to your door then ignore them for as long as it takes to get your wife, kid and dog through the back gate and away to safety.

And Puckerman, tell your friend to lock his fucking door.

"Land of the free" my ass.

Post: #11

(08-19-2017 12:28 AM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  ^ Misses or hides point Sp5. The girl is not the property of the Doctor or the State and the family has the absolute moral right to decide what they want done even if they are "wrong" according to the highly educated doctor you mention above.

Absolutely not. Child neglect is thankfully considered the serious crime that it is.

Whether OP's case is accurate enough or not, you are bound to get injustices and wrongful treatment on occasion. We are all humans, after all, even the medical experts and law enforcement.

Post: #12

Nobody on this forum can know what the truth of the matter is.

First, only getting one side of the story.
Second, that side of the story does not have medical expertise. Can be inferred that the physician with years of training felt strongly the treatment was required for the safety, life and limbs of the girl.
Third, information like results of bacterial cultures, statements and demeanor of parents and physician not known.
Fourth, we don't have the possible counterfactual available: a girl with one arm, or dead because of a serious bacterial infection which was untreated, contrary to expert medical advice.

Outside the echo chamber, judgments on treatment are medical, not political.

Post: #13

I would take that as anything other than a complete load of shit if the hospital was willing to put a senior doctor on the case at no extra charge in order to allay the fears of the parents (brought in at gunpoint) that this was to do with anything other than money, politics or ego.

Personally I've never met a female doctor that wasn't a left-wing ego-driven cunt desperate to abuse her state granted authority for her own gratification.

Beyond that, we're all becoming painfully aware that gender reassignment therapy is now entering the realms of being a decision between the doctor and the child, with the parents being "irrelevant observers". Any parent should be rightfully terrified of such commissars, regardless of what field they function in.

Post: #14

Regardless of this case, the Child Protective Services are usually abysmal at their jobs. They take away children without any warning for the tiniest "infractions" like sleeping in bed with a parent, light corporal punishment, picky eating, eating with fingers, unpainted child bedroom and a number of mind-bogglingly stupid things. Meanwhile, serious issues like alcohol, drug and sexual abuse don't receive even a cursory visit.

The employees of such agencies thrive on rampant child abuse. The more neglected and traumatized children around, the better it is for their pockets and the better their chances of lining up cushy UN / NGO jobs afterwards. Be very skeptical about their "noble" motivations, because whatever nobility such agencies might have had once has evaporated decades ago.

Post: #15

The fact that your friend and his girlfriend already have lost custody of one kid probably says something.

In principle, parents should have the reasonable authority to deny treatment, or at least see another doctor.

However, this parent seems to have been ruled incapable of taking care of one of their children, which probably tainted opinions when it came to taking care of the other one.

Post: #16

Clearly not enough facts to know what really happened here.

Post: #17

(08-19-2017 03:09 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Pro-tip. If you have any interaction with "the authorities" beyond the bounds of your home then have a plan not to be home for the next few days.

I know one guy who has an evacuation plan in place for his kids. He told his kids to be prepared to leave the house at a moment's notice. He had another family that he had made a deal with on this.

I believe in America, you are safe if you can just get your kids out of the county where you live.

(08-19-2017 04:48 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  Regardless of this case, the Child Protective Services are usually abysmal at their jobs. They take away children without any warning for the tiniest "infractions" like sleeping in bed with a parent, light corporal punishment, picky eating, eating with fingers, unpainted child bedroom and a number of mind-bogglingly stupid things. Meanwhile, serious issues like alcohol, drug and sexual abuse don't receive even a cursory visit.

The employees of such agencies thrive on rampant child abuse. The more neglected and traumatized children around, the better it is for their pockets and the better their chances of lining up cushy UN / NGO jobs afterwards. Be very skeptical about their "noble" motivations, because whatever nobility such agencies might have had once has evaporated decades ago.

I had a very interesting conversation with a social worker some years ago. He was concerned that some young children (2-4 age range) were "too quiet." He immediately assumed they were quiet because they had been beaten. When you spend all your time with troubled people and abusers, you forget that most people don't do this kind of stuff.

I also suspect that these people might simply be pissed off because they often have college degrees beyond just a bachelor's degree. In spite of this, they don't get paid much more than servers at a high-class restaurant. I wonder how they pay off their school debts, if they do at all. Needless to say, lots of them burn out quickly.

I didn't inquire as to the sex of the doctor. They did say that only one doctor was on duty. I also know that ER doctors are often the least experienced ones.

The guy has owned his own business in the past. I think he works some type of engineering job.

Post: #18

Relevent thread: /thread-58383.html

(09-21-2016 07:26 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I stumbled upon an interesting story about a young girl by the name of Justine Pelletier.

The long gist of the story goes, Justine had several very odd GI tract issues, poor energy during the day, and learning disabilities. Her parents had her enrolled in a special needs school which helped take care of her learning issues, but her GI tract and poor energy issues worsened.

They took her to Tufts Medical in Boston and a team of doctors diagnosed her with a rare mitochondrial disorder where her cells don't make enough energy. This was a specialist team who looked into mitochondrial disorders specifically.

The kicker of the story is, Justine's older sister was also diagnosed with the very same disorder after a litany of tests were done (including a muscle biopsy).

The treatment includes a feeding tube for nutrients, a cecostomy (a hole to allow irrigants to flush out items in the colon), and a collection of drugs to help her digestive tract do its job.

One night back in 2013, Justine's conditioned worsened to the point where so was completely bed ridden. Her parents drove her from Connecticut up to Boston. Since it was late at night her parents opted to go to Boston Children's Medical Center instead of Tufts Medical.

Woe to her family because at this point things began to get worse.

Instead of a gastroenterologist, a dutch nuerobiolgist decided that this girl was not experiencing any GI tract issues but instead was suffering from a somatization disorder (ie making it up). It was noted by the dutch neurobiologist that the girl's condition worsened around her mother.

The neurobiologist then calls in a psychologist to make an evaluation. The shrink agrees and then they decide to end all of Justine's medical procedures and focus on psychiatric evaluations. More so called "elite" medical professionals from interns, doctors, postdocs, nurses, etc came in to examine this girl. They all agreed with the original somatization disorder from the neurobiologist.

This was all done without the consent of the parents and the original doctors who made the first diagnosis.

Livid, Justine's parents demanded an explanation. Instead of getting one, Boston Children's Hospital decided to file a "Medical Abuse" claim against the parents which allowed Child Protection Services to take control of the child. In doing so, Boston Children's moved the girl to a locked wing of the hospital meant for children experiencing severe mental disorders. Justine was essentially bed and wheel chair ridden the entire time.

The state eventually declared that Justine's parents were unfit for them to visit her and that all visitations would be guarded by a "visitation specialist". To make matters even more dastardly, Boston Children's refused to let the original diagnosing doctor and team look at Justine.

Now reading into both sides of the story, it came out that Justine's parents are quintessential helicopter parents. In Justine's medical charts, it came out that her parents had argued with several doctors. Justine's original primary care physician accused them of doctor shopping and just being outright difficult.

Normally, I would take such information at face value and agree that maybe her parents were being difficult because they're being idiots.

However, Justine's parents had another daughter who also suffered from the very same issues. She was diagnosed by the same doctors and had a handful of tests done to diagnose the rare mitochondrial disorder up to and including a muscle biopsy. The disorder is considered genetic.

Hilariously, after pulling the girl off of her drugs her conditioned supposedly worsened and they eventually had to put a feeding tube back in her to get her nutrients she needed.

At this point knowing the type of people who occupy positions of power in these "elite" medical institutions around Boston made me side with the parents.

This type of arrogance about the state knowing what is best for children with rare medical disorders sickened me and the complacency of CPS to come in because of Boston Children's connections with Harvard is disgusting.

While I can contend that smart folks go to these elite institutions, the level of arrogance assuming that they know what's best and using state apparati to dictate their whims is the height of totalitarianism.

Justine's parents are now suing Boston Medical for its handling of their daughter's issue.

The Boston Globe had an excellent story on what happened and can be viewed here:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/1...story.html

TL;DR: Girl with rare medical disorder was taken from her parents at the behest of "elite medical experts" who assumed that they knew best when in fact they didn't.
Moral of the story: don't take your kid to a children's hospital and especially don't go to a different hospital from where the primary treatments are taking place!

Note to self: avoid "top of the line" institutions so you don't have to deal with individuals with a god complex. You'll get better care, service, and thought from a 2nd tier hospital.

Post: #19

(08-19-2017 02:18 AM)puckerman Wrote:  Nowadays, when kids break bones, the parents are given the third, the fourth, and the fifth degree. They are treated as guilty until proven innocent. These people have to find crimes in order to justify their jobs.

Its because the state has made medical practitioners into police investigators.

Anyone who has a daughter....if you give a young toddler girl enough antibiotics she may develop a yeast infection. Doctors consider that grounds for asking if your little girl has been molested and are required to ask say a 2 or 3 year old questions they dont understand....the kind of questions that make you want to throw up. A cure for this is to provide a probiotic when taking such items. But as a parent yes you are guilty until proven innocent. I have known other parents who have had to speak with the police under threat of having their child taken away.....just because they are given too many f*cking antibiotics.

The best approach is to see your doctor when you are feeling well.....

Post: #20

(08-18-2017 09:19 PM)puckerman Wrote:  When they finally got to see a doctor, the doctor said they "wanted to blast it out of there." They refused the procedure because they considered it invasive. They wanted a minimal procedure. They refused surgery and took her home.

I would suggest to your friend gets medical records form the ER and have second opinion on the matter. The problem I see here is the lack of communication with the doctor and patient.

The problem that the girl will have with foreign body in the finger is the development a felon. A felon is closed spaced infection that lead to complications in due time. The finger has many compartments due to its anatomy, development of an abscess will lead in increase pressure in the compartment will cut off the blood supply. This will lead to dead tissue and spread of the infection to other parts of the body.

If your friend didn't get explanation about that doctor, then your friend was misinformed and doctor in the ER is an idiot.

Post: #21

(08-19-2017 04:48 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  Regardless of this case, the Child Protective Services are usually abysmal at their jobs. They take away children without any warning for the tiniest "infractions" like sleeping in bed with a parent, light corporal punishment, picky eating, eating with fingers, unpainted child bedroom and a number of mind-bogglingly stupid things.

I remember a case where they cited the father not washing his hands after using the bathroom as a reason to remove the child.

Remember folks, if you see a CPS worker in distress, do not stop and render aid.

Post: #22

It's hard to comment on the case having only one side, but it sounds like the child had what's termed a 'septic hand'.

Septic hands, if not operated, can lead to permanent loss of function in the hand, or even gangrene.

If she has a kidney disorder, the likelihood of the sepsis worsening and causing general septic shock would also be high.

The doctor was probably just protecting his butt. The family would have been able to sue him for medical negligence once their daughter's hand rotted off or if she developed further complications. They could easily have argued that the doctor had a legal/ethical right to compel the parents to return the child to hospital, and they would have been right.

The doctor probably took the course of action that put him at the least risk of a career-destroying law suit. No one wants to be known as the doctor that allowed a kid with a septic hand to go home, with her ending up permanently disabled or dying due to a combination of sepsis/renal problems.

Just my 2c. I don't know the full details of the story but I present a possible alternative explanation, just for pondering.

Post: #23

(08-19-2017 12:57 AM)Mage Wrote:  In Eastern Europe most people know that it is dangerous to raise children in West, because they can be confiscated for any trivial shit.

In Scandinavian Monarchies - Norway and Sweden it is even written in their unholy constitution that all children are property of the King. So they can be confiscated - just because government likes it so. Usually of course some small justification is found - like a parent raising his voice on children.

In Russia they suspect it is mostly to supply the demand for homosexuals and single parents to adopt children therefore they prohibited adaption to western countries.

I personally believe it is not always to adopt a child to homosexuals. It is to create government drones and to force parents to comply with letting governments brainwash children. To destroy families and culture.

Western people (yes including you Americans) also love to snitch on each other to Government which means if you get accused by your neighbor unjustly you might fight an upwards battle proving your innocence. This is because Westerners mostly have delusional trust in their government and authorities.

In Eastern Europe and Russia, people don't snitch each other to government, because people remember Soviet times and are suspicious of authorities and government. In soviet times snitches were quietly murdered in the middle of night by the community. In Eastern Europe ad Russia people feel obliged to make an objection or a warning to the person doing wrong first, before reporting to authorities. This is for things like playing loud music, littering or hitting your child. In western countries people don't warn their peers, they contact government immediately. Like this piece of shit doctor who didn't tell he will contact authorities if parents refuse surgeries. This is why I have little sympathy for most westerners. In EE neither a neighbor nor a doctor would probably snitch to a government about parents not undergoing surgery and even if a doctor would do it as part of his professional duties, the Government would be more trying to reason with parents rather then taking children away with force as the first option.

Man what you wrote is so true. I'm currently in the Security Business Part-Time, and everytime I interact with Eastern Europeans... there's always a calm but firm vibe in the interaction of Don't fuck with me, and I won't fuck you up son. There's an Inner Toughness of people that lived in Warzones. Good people that just wants Peace!

Post: #24

(08-19-2017 12:28 AM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  ^ Misses or hides point Sp5. The girl is not the property of the Doctor or the State and the family has the absolute moral right to decide what they want done even if they are "wrong" according to the highly educated doctor you mention above.

In addition you would have had different doctors who might have wanted to resolve the issue without surgery. This was not a life-threatening condition and it was also no incident that would have endangered her finger or created some kind of infection. Possible that 30% of MDs would have opted to wait.

But this is nothing new - the system is getting ever more draconian. They may not get their daughter back since they are on the CPS shitlist - even if they do, then they will be under constant supervision.

And Mage is right - many Eastern European countries recommend mothers to instantly take the kid and flee to the East as soon as the government child mafia has it's Eye of Sauron on your kid. There are thousands of mothers who left the UK and fled back to Poland or the Czech Republic, because the shitheads would have taken away the kids over some idiotic pretext.

Post: #25

(08-19-2017 01:07 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

(08-19-2017 12:25 AM)puckerman Wrote:  

(08-19-2017 12:16 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Everybody's a medical expert now, I guess.

The four years the emergency room MD spent in medical school, his internship and residency, and the $200k+ he paid in tuition was a total waste. Anyone can know better than him.

Yes, and the doctor needs all the unnecessary operations he can get so he can pay off all those debts.

Be honest. You have no idea whether the surgery was unnecessary or life-saving. Your innuendo means nothing. You weren't there, and you aren't a physician.

Even a cursory search of the internet reveals the dangers of cutaneous e.coli and staph infections, including organ failures, "flesh-eating" infections that require limb amputations, and death.

The "large boil" was serious enough to cause an emergency room trip, wasn't it?

(08-19-2017 12:28 AM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  ^ Misses or hides point Sp5. The girl is not the property of the Doctor or the State and the family has the absolute moral right to decide what they want done even if they are "wrong" according to the highly educated doctor you mention above.

The child is not the "property" of the parents, either. The parents do not have an "absolute moral right" to deny needed medical care to their child. The guardianship of the parents does not extend to the denial of life-saving medical care. The principle is well-established in cases of Jehovah's Witnesses and others who would deny blood transfusions and other care to their children.

The OP says the parents are "activists." What kind? You don't get to sacrifice your kid on the altar of your "activism."

Another case of "activist" attention-whoring and shit-stirring. Also sounds like the parents want a lawsuit $$$$.

Wanting a second opinion and disagreeing with a single physician in the matter of a cactus prick shouldn't be cause for government agents to come into your home and force your daughter to undergo unwanted and possibly unneeded surgery.

As you said, you weren't there, know nothing about the actual circumstances, and are not a physician yourself yet you assume the damages are life threatening.

Did you know medical malpractice is one of the leading causes of death in the United States? Its called "practicing medicine" for a reason. You can go to three different doctors or dentists that give you three different opinions. Doctors perform unnecessary procedures regularly. Dentists as well.

You may be willing to put all your faith in an unknown physician but don't act like other people are immoral for not doing so, especially with their children.