Post: #151

Whatever you think of Unite the Right, they had a lawful and constitutional right to stage a peaceful rally.

The only reason violence broke out was because Antifags operate on the principle of "We don't like you so you can't associate, so we'll stop you from associating by any means necessary." This is unlawful.

From this perspective, Trump's comments, while deliberately ambiguous, are not a disavowal of Unite the Right, but the Antifa lawbreakers. Squishy language like 'at the end of the day we're all Americans' when applied to Charlottesville is a legitimization of UTR, because the violence was initiated to stop them. Saying we condemn the violence is then a condemnation of the attempt to stop UTR.

Talking about violence 'from all sides' alone should have been a clue. Yes, its technically equating the "White Nationalists" and Antifa but in the context of The Narrative, Trump stuck his neck out a bit. For reference, this is what an acceptable response from our leaders is supposed to look like:

Trump went on to focus on law and order, which also was a subtle condemnation of antifa. Again, the only ones who were lawfully permitted to rally were UTR. Restoring law and order then, means targeting the lawbreakers, antifa.

"No citizen should fear for their safety and security in our society." UTR were such threatened citizens, strictly speaking.
"and no child should ever be afraid to go outside and play, or be with their parents, and have a good time." Out of the two groups, which can be described to be going outside to play and have a good time?

Trump is never going come out and go Full Alt-Right. We know he is Full Alt-West which should be good enough for anyone on 'our side' at this stage. Those who think things need to go further than that are going to have to do it themselves from the ground up, as they have been doing already. Trump isn't going to help there, but he isn't going to get in the way either, which is just as important.

Post: #152

I'm also with those of you saying nazi flags are bad optics, don't get me wrong, mostly because you'd have to be a retard hooligan to choose an ideology to support which is not "edgy" but outright repulsive to the vast majority of people. I like to do the grandfather test. Would my grandfather who fought in WW2 have approved. He'd be repulsed and that was a guy who mostly only had good things to say about german soldiers, as prisoners and as guards when he was prisoner by them. I don't think he'd be repulsed necessarily by the various identitarian groups. Not if the opposition was Antifa. He would not approve of joining, but he sure wouldn't support antifa over them.

Yes, you might have read stuff and watched stuff on Youtube which made you realize that WW2 was not black/white. You might edgelord about such things to rid yourself and others of the sins of the father complex. There's still a long way to go to willingly parade yourself around as the symbol of genocidal authoritarianism. What kind of person wants to willingly, publicly take on the identity of the most despised ideology on earth? Only those who are outcasts from every other human fellowship. And for that reason, it would be best to rid yourself of nazi glorification once and for all in such a movement.

Post: #153

Post: #154

The swastika flag guy I would not be surprised to find is a plant. This happened at a few of the Tea Party rallies hereabouts - one lefty shows up with a swastika or whatever, loiters around like he's part of the group, moves into position near the podium so as to get into the news pictures and video, when challenged claims innocent ignorance of what it means or why people would be offended or why he should leave, meanwhile media zero in on him and his sign or flag or armband and make him the "face" of the event and ignore the rest, leaving morons like J.K. Rowling to reduce the entire event to this one provocateur and assert that everyone there agreed in full and without reservations with the guy's (never actually made) hateful statements.

When in fact, he was being jeered, heckled, argued with, and asked to leave the whole time.

The local lefty organizations coordinated on pulling this kind of thing. The moment the questionable material made its appearance, there were pictures of it on Twitter and curiously detailed and well-written press releases going out and the echo chamber spreading the word amongst themselves until the local news and papers picked it up.

So, yes, optics does matter with this stuff, simply because it can be exploited by lefty/SJW activists and spoon-fed to their lazy pals in the media. Whether it's a provocateur doing it or not doesn't matter, as it's being done, and it gets exploited by professional activist/media types who know how to shut out the real story and focus everyone on the tiny little midge in the five gallon bucket of soup. The catch is that policing it doesn't work - you can't stop sincere or provocateur attendees from doing this and being seen doing it long enough for it to be exploited. Alt-right activists need to know this exploitation of the unavoidable is going to happen, and find ways to either thwart the narrative-shaping that follows or otherwise destroy the effectiveness of the technique itself (e.g.: it won't be effective if the public becomes aware that it's phony and contrived, just like people now instinctively dismiss it when feminists claim to have received rape and/or death threats).

Post: #155

(08-12-2017 08:30 PM)Alsos Wrote:  The swastika flag guy I would not be surprised to find is a plant. This happened at a few of the Tea Party rallies hereabouts - one lefty shows up with a swastika or whatever, loiters around like he's part of the group, moves into position near the podium so as to get into the news pictures and video, when challenged claims innocent ignorance of what it means or why people would be offended or why he should leave, meanwhile media zero in on him and his sign or flag or armband and make him the "face" of the event and ignore the rest, leaving morons like J.K. Rowling to reduce the entire event to this one provocateur and assert that everyone there agreed in full and without reservations with the guy's (never actually made) hateful statements.

When in fact, he was being jeered, heckled, argued with, and asked to leave the whole time.

The local lefty organizations coordinated on pulling this kind of thing. The moment the questionable material made its appearance, there were pictures of it on Twitter and curiously detailed and well-written press releases going out and the echo chamber spreading the word amongst themselves until the local news and papers picked it up.

So, yes, optics does matter with this stuff, simply because it can be exploited by lefty/SJW activists and spoon-fed to their lazy pals in the media. Whether it's a provocateur doing it or not doesn't matter, as it's being done, and it gets exploited by professional activist/media types who know how to shut out the real story and focus everyone on the tiny little midge in the five gallon bucket of soup. The catch is that policing it doesn't work - you can't stop sincere or provocateur attendees from doing this and being seen doing it long enough for it to be exploited. Alt-right activists need to know this exploitation of the unavoidable is going to happen, and find ways to either thwart the narrative-shaping that follows or otherwise destroy the effectiveness of the technique itself (e.g.: it won't be effective if the public becomes aware that it's phony and contrived, just like people now instinctively dismiss it when feminists claim to have received rape and/or death threats).

Charlottesville is the UVA town, nearby drive to DC, heavily infested by leftists bristling of PC culture, many of whom landed high level media jobs on the east coast.

This entire escapade was practically catered to get that audience fired up.

A plant at this point is highly possible.

Post: #156

(08-12-2017 05:25 PM)Uruz Wrote:  

Zigzag Wrote:No matter how you try to spin it... nazism is a non-starter.

Few years back I had hard time finding some Reich themed wallpaper.

What the hell?

You walk into home depot and say "I'd like a paste free that adheres smoothly, and praises the fuhrer." That's just overboard.

Don't be a wierdo.

Edit: and of course you had a hard time finding it, who the hell would sell that?

Aloha!

Post: #157

There will be very intense pressure on T to go beyond today's statement and join the chorus of canting condemnation; it will be almost impossible for him not to say at least something more. What he needs to do -- and I truly hope he and his people will realize this -- is talk about political violence in this country, and in particular talk about the terrorist attack on Steve Scalise and the Republican Congressional leadership two months ago.

That was an absolutely insane event that by sheer luck did not become a historic catastrophe for our country; the entire GOP Congressional leadership could easily have been taken out. It disappeared from media coverage with unprecedented speed; I cannot think of any event being less covered than that one. The difference between the media response to Charlottesville and to the Scalise attack -- including the reactions of the useless and cowardly Republicans -- tells one everything one needs to know. This is something Trump needs to hammer home and I very much hope he does.

Post: #158

(08-12-2017 07:22 PM)Thomas Jackson Wrote:  I can separate them. Don't you think the media would have called them Nazi's regardless if the couple of actual Nazi's showed up? They called fucking vanilla Romney a Nazi.

(08-12-2017 06:55 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

(08-12-2017 06:23 PM)Thomas Jackson Wrote:  I'm with the damn the optics crowd. One retard with a Swastika does not represent the whole 500 people in attendance. There were definitely a lot of confederate flags but the basis of the event was protesting the removal of Lee's statue so that makes sense.

The actions of the government were egregious. They shut down a lawful/permitted protest and allowed the Antifa to rampage unchecked.

So?

You need to learn how to separate the two issues.

Here's two ideas:

1) A small number of idiots with Swastikas doesn't invalidate the general point being made.

2) Said idiots with Swastikas are harmful to the cause and aren't any better than the Antifa types when you get right down to it as both are totalitarian ideologies.


One can cogently believe both points.

Quote:Perhaps counterintuitively, identity politics are about how other people view you. It doesn't matter if you think you're part of their group if they don't think so, and just declaring your neutrality will get you exactly nowhere if they perceive you as belonging to a hostile group.

Within the same conversation that's true.

If you don't like the conversation, then change the conversation. One area that Trump has been massively a letdown is that his initial message of "America first" and accompanying focus on national identity was a huge unifying counter to that. Shifting the conversation from one of warring identity groups to "we're all Americans" is an extremely powerful message and the only rhetorical way to beat progressive propaganda.

The Neo-Nazi types have already lost because they're accepting that frame and working within the rules set for them by the cultural marxist left.

And your point is? Just because they call people a Nazi doesn't mean people actually guy that shit. In many cases them calling everyone "Nazis" sans any evidence actually drove people away from the left.

That also doesn't mean the people with Swastikas should be tolerated....and there's other reasons why. As other posters have pointed, there have been a significant number of incidents where the people showing up in Nazi gear were plants.

Banning them at events helps stop them and catches some of the plants.

Post: #159

(08-12-2017 08:51 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  in particular talk about the terrorist attack on Steve Scalise and the Republican Congressional leadership two months ago.

Waste of fucking time. They'll never hear it. The Left believes their violence is righteous because it's emotions, not logic, that rule.

And, frankly, Trump's pissweak response to that attack at the time - and every other attack on Republicans - shows he doesn't care either. Maybe some rapper was busy making mild fun of him in a Youtube Video, and writing a 'strongly-worded letter to the editor' was more important to him.

Don't expect the Conservative Christian base he's courted to help us: they have already been converged by Social Justice and a Socialist Pope. Given that they have a submissive persecution fetish and get a thrill from martyrdom, we're on our own.

When the crackdown happens, it'll be the extremes of both sides.

Post: #160

"The universal/globalist left has such a need for racists and nazis that during the communist government in East Germany they funded neonazi movements in West Germany. With the reunification of Germany, these movements practically disappeared." Olavo de Carvalho, again, and I suspect he is right (the old codger is almost always right, it's scary). I am 100% sure there were paid plants in the Right-wing camp.

https://www.infowars.com/exclusive-virgi...atherings/

Infowars presents another credible option. This is divide and conquer.

Post: #161

When they say 'get rid of hate' what they really mean is get rid of your ability to decide for yourself. It's the same playbook they use with trannys, muslims, etc.... you don't follow their agenda 110% you are expressing hate that needs to be corrected.

Again, 74 murders in Chicago in june, but saying things with words and banners is worse? They don't give a shit when lives are lost, but care when certain groups hold a fucking rally? Hell, had they just ignored it probably few would've even heard of it. It's the same reason they shut down ROK meetups, they're flexing their control over you.

Post: #162

Well, the Republicans seem united in blaming the Right for what happened, and now Ted Cruz is accusing the Right of 'Domestic Terrorism', and is calling for investigation, as are many other Republicans.

In the statement to the press, he talks about 'Nazis!' and how shocking the car 'attack'.

Since the 'White People are Domestic Terrorists' meme was one of Hillary's goals, it makes you wonder what the point of supporting Trump even was.

Note that none of these gutless pricks ever called out Antifa or Leftist violence, because they functionally are the left.

Even though I predicted the Alt-Right had functioned as Useful Idiots and would be thrown under the bus back in February, it's still frustrating to see this play out.

Post: #163

There's a lot of stuff to think about, concerning today. But while I understand what some people are saying about "optics", I believe a lot of that stuff is not going to help us (i.e. the right) after a certain point. I believe even just being a normal human being is not going to help after a certain point.

You have an enemy who wants you dead if you're white.
One that never has anything bad to say about communism, the worst bloodbath of a political ideology to ever exist.
Who thinks that "man-spreading" is worse than Pakistani pedo gangs in Britain.
Who calls you racist if you don't like an illegal alien from Mexico running over an American while driving drunk.
Who will play Dr. Frankenstein with their children's genitals to score progressive brownie points.

The modern liberal is a perverted, sadistic maniac.

People like that will never be won over by reason or human decency. They will only stop when they are scared.

Post: #164

The Left has a monopoly on morality. That must be broken until any real progress is to be made. Groups like Antifa cannot remain unscathed.

Post: #165

Two pages in and already there's bunch of people that think they're going to "optics" their way to victory over the militant left.

Any excuse to think they can go about their normal lives and contribute a few shitposts here and there before the West returns to a land of milk and honey.

Post: #166

Good:

(Edit: noted for the record that this character is an otherwise worthless NeverTrumper and is NOT the Stephen Miller that matters; but this point is good and needs to be repeated and emphasized again and again).

Post: #167

(08-12-2017 01:48 PM)zigZag Wrote:  ...

No. This rally was organized from what i'm saying by richard spencer. Features hitler speeches and nazi imagery.

yes 63 million and they will be distancing themselves from anyone who was even close to this rally. Even trump was quick to distance himself. What you don't understand is that you don't win by putting yourself on an island.

Congrats. You've just stated plainly that the only thing Soros et al need to do to shut down a right wing movement is dump a few avowed Nazis and Klansmen into the mix.

For whatever reason, you seem to have little grasp of the sense of outright rage building among traditionalist whites in the West. You might think that people are spineless simps that will be driven one way or the other quite easily (if so, how did Trump beat the entire forces of the old-media?) but an extremely large number of whites now understand that their very survival is on the line. They give zero fucks if hardcore right wing movements crop up, particularly if those organisations start putting the serious pain on the left that those vanilla moms and dads wish that they could indulge in. Call it second effect catharsis.

Old conservatism is literally dying out with the boomers, and if they want to vote left because a bunch of kids marched with Nazi banners then fuck it, let's just cut to the shooting phase.

Trump got elected because the right no longer gives a fuck about optics. They're now concerned with rocking the boat, and hard. It pays to recognise that if Trump ran his campaign the way the cucks here demand the alt-right run their organisation then he would have lost.

Post: #168

This is from a NY Times reporter who was on the ground in Charlottesville; surprised she let this slip:

Post: #169

(08-12-2017 06:24 PM)weambulance Wrote:  To repeat yet another thing I've said at least a dozen times on the forum, you don't get to opt out of identity politics.

Perhaps counterintuitively, identity politics are about how other people view you. It doesn't matter if you think you're part of their group if they don't think so, and just declaring your neutrality will get you exactly nowhere if they perceive you as belonging to a hostile group.

When someone declares war on you, you can't just decline to participate. Unless you want to be slaughtered, of course.

Yes, you can in fact. When they are far weaker than you are you can quite easily refuse to participate.

In those cases you are only providing them with munition when you do.

And lastly, no one can tell me what I can and can't do.

Post: #170

(08-12-2017 03:22 PM)armenia4ever Wrote:  Those Nazi flags and banners, whether edgy or trollish are an absolute PR disaster.

Nazi anything is a non starter. Yes I'm aware we are called nazis all the tine. Doesn't mean we say, "Ah fuck it," and show up places sporting swastika arm bands and flags.
...

No, what you're saying is that the left or the deep state can, under your rules, disband any right wing rally by dumping a couple of fake paid-for nazis into the mix.

Because all of those sane conservatives will surely flee for fear of bad optics, laughably leaving nobody but the fake paid-for nazis which the MSM will go on to describe as a "failed right wing nazi protest with a pitiful turnout that had to be protected by the police".

Post: #171

That's a really good catch, TLOZ.

Even her NYT article is surprisingly balanced. Her major complaint that Trump didn't condemn the White Nationalists by name wasn't unreasonably stated, and most people would find this request reasonable.

That these men were mostly young, college age or younger, gives credence to nomadbrah's How Generation Z Would've Voted, By Race chart. And so scorpion's assessment wins over Samseau's rebuttal (even though both were thoughtfully written and highly plausible).

------

Vox Day, as usual, nails it.

Post: #172

cascadecombo Wrote:Yes, you can in fact. When they are far weaker than you are you can quite easily refuse to participate.

A man who refuses to participate in identity politics gets thrown into political identity groups by other people. Every. Single. Time.

You're a Muslim, or a White bigot, or a Latino, or a Christian, because others declare you to be so. Saying, "Dude, I hate politics so much that I've never even voted!" isn't going to remove the political identity you've been assigned.

Post: #173

(08-12-2017 09:51 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Well, the Republicans seem united in blaming the Right for what happened, and now Ted Cruz is accusing the Right of 'Domestic Terrorism', and is calling for investigation, as are many other Republicans.

In the statement to the press, he talks about 'Nazis!' and how shocking the car 'attack'.

Since the 'White People are Domestic Terrorists' meme was one of Hillary's goals, it makes you wonder what the point of supporting Trump even was.

Note that none of these gutless pricks ever called out Antifa or Leftist violence, because they functionally are the left.

Even though I predicted the Alt-Right had functioned as Useful Idiots and would be thrown under the bus back in February, it's still frustrating to see this play out.

Maybe an investigation is just what is needed.

It wouldnt hurt to shine a light on why city hall tried to revoke the permits, or why antifa was allowed to congregate while the lawful, permitted march was moved on. All kinds of leftist fuckery could be uncovered through an investigation.

Or maybe if it walks like a cuck and sounds like a cuck, it really is a cuck.

Post: #174

This was the top news at 6 pm here in Honolulu.

They just called it a KKK and Neo Nazi rally.

Aloha!

Post: #175

Unless it can be proven that the guy driving the car was anything less than a leftist/Antifa nutcase, I think he just drove a major stake into the heart of the Alt-Right movement.

The torchlight rally (even if they were Tiki torches) was great optics - hundreds of white males surrounding a handful of demented leftists with little to no violence. Then today, the Alt-Rights show up to march and actually disperse and follow lawful orders while Antifa etc. push their luck and refuse to do the same.

Then, an hour or so later, a lone wolf does this. *sigh*

Please, God, let him be a provable nutcase/leftist. Otherwise, ANY time white Christian men gather to protest anything, THIS is what we'll hear about.

Meanwhile, of course, when Muslims do the same (and worse), it'll just be an isolated incident, nothing to see here you racist/mysogynist/Hitlerati scum for even trying to make a connection.

FML, SMH, etc.