Post: #26

(06-14-2017 03:53 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  It is not about money for most universities - this happens all across the world even in Europe where the colleges are state-funded.

This is intellectual globalism and also partly the globalists educating developing countries on the tab of the Western ones.

In the future they want a mobile educated class who are willing to move for jobs from Shanghai to Frankfurt, then 2 years to Argentina, then to Austin. International education is part of the tool of that. There are also hugely funded post-graduate programs.

This is nothing new by the way. The globalists began to fund Chinese engineers in the 1970s and it went all on through the 1980s. Back then it appeared strange because there were no jobs for those men. But those buggers plan and work ahead. Those jobs appeared beginning in the 1990s and there were tens of thousands of educated engineers and managers already in the country who could move China quickly in the right direction.

Good assessment. A lot of globalist multinationals have a hard time getting past that language and culture barrier. Having someone from a market they're expanding in with a Western education helps get them around those obstacles.

Post: #27

(06-14-2017 12:29 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  What does this mean? To me it points to a pure revenue grab by universities. They are sensing that the US student loan party may be drawing to a close, and they are now targeting the deep pockets: students from China, Saudi Arabia, and other places where students will be willing and able to pay in cash on the barrelhead.

It's yet another example of how our institutions, which are supposed to be serving the interests of the people here, are putting money ahead of their educational mission.

What will the long-term effect of this trend be? It will continue to drive up educational costs. As universities get used to cash up front, they're going to feel the need to increase tuition even more.

Even worse, it will produce a cadre of graduates who have no native roots in this country, and who will simply take their educations and go back home. There is nothing wrong with this per se, but when the percentages of foreign students gets too large, schools begin to feel more and more like airport passenger terminals and less and less like places of shared intellectual and cultural tradition.

Don't forget they make money the other way around too - when a US student goes abroad (typically for a bullshit summer in Spain studying Basque feminist literature or something equally irrelevant to the job market), the sponsoring American university takes a slice in exchange for accepting the credits earned at the foreign university.

In the summertime the foreign school is happy to rent out part their campus to American programs since the usual spring and fall terms are not in session anyway. Most of the time the classes are led by US professors happy to teach some pass/fail courses to intoxicated halfwits for a small stipend, free flight and room & board reimbursed. By contrast, the foreign students coming to America usually have some skill set in mind with which they plan to return home and apply to an actual job.

Either way though, yes, they are a cash cow. Not only that but the performance of the foreign students do not always factor into the rankings for schools, depending upon which program is taken. Graduate programs (often attended by foreign students) to not affect the tier ranking of the undergraduate school; ditto for law schools offering graduate programs alongside their nationally ranked JD programs. This is actually a negative for the schools since chances are the foreign students may be getting better grades than their American counterparts.

Post: #28

(06-14-2017 03:35 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 03:34 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  The real travesty here is Chinese, Saudi and other students getting subpar education despite paying millions. You really have to be a grade-A low-information cuck to pay to send your child for a dumbing down & indoctrination course at Harvard, Berkeley, Yale, etc.

On the other hand, it's a potent strategic advantage which might keep the US ahead in military terms for at least a few more years

This is more true than you realize. The US military has often accepted foreign military officers into Ranger and Special Forces schools and allowed them to graduate, regardless of performance. Reason being is eventually some of these junior foreign officers move up the chain of command and even into political life, retaining fond memories of training with the US military. Politically speaking it's a wise move that doesn't cost much to execute.

Post: #29

This stuff has been going on for years. Now it seems to be 100 worse.

Post: #30

Leaving aside the financial incentives for blowing illiterate foreigners through the system, there is also another factor at play in how universities are basically paper mills. It depresses me how The Last Psychiatrist keeps getting proven right with time.

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/08/g...ation.html

The whole article is long but bears reading, and TLP is one guy I'm willing to sell clicks to. One of the most terrifying insights he makes is that grade inflation really took off from precisely the year 1986:



What happened that year that caused grading to ascend? Generation X started going to university, in short. (What happened in 1966 that caused a massive blast-off? TLP's thesis would probably be: the Baby Boomers started going to college, also see the start of the trend that 'there are no wrong answers' and the first serious incursions of postmodernism into Western academia.)

But 1986 was also precisely the same year that researchers noted narcissism start to take off among students in universities:



It's hard to tell a growing population of narcissists that their schoolwork sucks, so the solution is simple: you don't. TLP goes on:

Quote:Most people stop their analysis right there, but you should really go the extra three steps and not just pee in the sink: now those students are 40. They grew up to be the Dumbest Generation of Narcissists In The History of the World, so narcissistic that not only are they dumb, but they do not know how dumb they are and cannot be told how dumb they are. They are aware that there are things they don't know, but they are certain that they have at least heard of everything that's worth knowing. Whenever the upper management guys at Chronicle Of Higher Education or The National Review pretend to disagree about the "classics" or "Great Books" or the "value of a liberal education," after five minutes it becomes clear that even they haven't read all those books, or most of them, or even a respectable minority, or three. They've read about them, ok, that's what America does, but when you finally pin them down and they admit they haven't read it-- which would be fine-- their final response is of the form "there's no point in reading Confessions now since we've all moved beyond that." Oh. And those are supposed to be the smart ones; everyone else in the generation thinks that the speed at which they can repeat the words they heard on TV or read on some magazine's website is evidence of their understanding.

That aside, this perhaps is the most salient observation he makes:

Quote:If you reconsider grade inflation not as a function of the quality of the output but rather as the result of a hesitating lack of confidence about what constitutes good quality-- and again, I'm talking not about A+ and F- but the differences between the B and C levels where most "good" students are; and accept that, simply as a numerical reality, these "average" students are then the ones who (likely with the assistance of grade inflation) go on to become future academics, then a number of phenomena suddenly make a lot of sense. And the most important one is the one that students have long suspected but never dared say out loud: professors do not know the material they are teaching, but they think they do.

An American History professor may be considered somewhat of an expert because he's been teaching the Civil War for the past 15 years, but he's only been repeating what he knew 15 years ago for 15 years. And every year he forgets a little. How carefully is he keeping up with it-- especially if his "research interests" happen to lie elsewhere?

I know doctors who have been giving the same receptor pharmacology lectures to students for a decade. I know they are narcissists, not just because they are too apathetic to keep up with the field, but because it never occurred to them that receptor pharmacology might have advanced in ten years. They believe that what they knew ten years ago is enough. They are bigger than the science. These aren't just some lazy doctors in community practice, these are Ivy League physicians responsible for educating new doctors with new information. Yet the Power Point slides say 2001. "Well, I'm just teaching them the basics." How do you know those are still the basics? Who did you ask?

You think your philosophy professor re-reads Kant every year? The last time he did was in graduate school-- when his brain was made of graduate student and beer. Think about this. Hecko, has he even lately read about Kant? Do you think he tries, just to stay sharp, to take a current event and see what Kant might say about it? No, same notes on a yellow legal pad from Reagan II. Does he "know" Kant because he's been "teaching Kant" for 20 years? When in his life is he "challenged" by someone else who "knows" Kant? Seriously, think about this. For two decades the hardest questions he's been asked come from students, and he's been able to handle them like a Jedi. How could he not think of himself as an expert?

The sclerosis of imagination and intellect that inevitably happens over time will make it impossible for him to grade a paper that does not conform to his expectations. I don't mean it agrees with the professor, I mean his expectations of what a good paper looks like. Students already have a phrase for this: "What he likes to see in the paper is..."

So when it comes time to write a paper about Kant, it is infinitely less important that he understand Kant then it is for him to understand what the professor thinks is important about Kant-- and it is way easier to get through college this way. And if you have the misfortune of being taught Kant by a guy whose "research interests" are not Kant, forget it. You're getting an A, and he hates you.

VI.

This stuff matters, it has real consequences. When one narcissistic generation sets up the pieces for the next generation, and you put the rooks in the middle and leave out the bishops and hide one of the knights, and then you tell the kids that they lack the intelligence or concentration to really learn chess, you have to figure they're not going to want to pay for your Social Security. Just a thought.

Also: TAs are helping grade some of the papers, and some is worse than all. In order to ensure grading consistency, the essay answer has to be structured in a format that facilitates grading-- because if the professor can't value a B form a C, how can a TA? So the answer must mirror the six points in the textbook or the four things mentioned in class. This, again, means you shouldn't spend any time learning, you should spend it gaming the essay. So if the essay question is, "Discuss some of the causes of the Iraq War" you can be dead sure that "some" means specifically the ones the professor thinks are important. There may be others, but you're taking a big risk mentioning them. The TAs are just scanning for keywords. As long as they're in there, even in grammatically impossible constructions, you win.

VII.

Here's one solution: abandon grades.

"But we have to have some way of objectively evaluating students!"

Haven't you been listening? You can't just suck the Red Pill like a Jolly Rancher, you have to swallow it. Grades aren't objectively measuring people, the whole thing is a farce. The grades are meaningless. Not only do they not measure anything, but the manner in which they are inflated precludes real learning. Stop it.

"Some grades aren't inflated." But how would anyone on the outside know? Can you tell them apart? The long term result will be: bad money drives out good money.

"Well, I earned my As." No you didn't, that's the point. I'm not saying you're not smart or didn't work hard, I'm saying you have no idea how good or bad you are, you only think you do.

"Just pass/fail? But how will employers know a good student from a bad student?" Again, you are avoiding the terrible, awful truth because it is too terrible and too awful: when employers look at a GPA, they don't know anything. The 3.5 they are looking at is information bias, it not only contains no information, it deludes you into thinking you possess information. You can't erase that 3.7 from your mind. In what classes, in what levels, against what curve? Just because employers do it doesn't mean it's useful. They use sexual harassment videos, too.

Grades do not only offer incorrect evaluations of a student's knowledge, they perpetuate the fiction that professors are able to evaluate. They can't. Again, they may be able to tell an A+ and an F-, but a B+ from a B? Really? That's the level of their precision? But a professor cannot ever admit that he doesn't have that precision, because it cannot enter his consciousness that he doesn't. "I've been teaching this class for 15 years." And I'm sure it gets easier every year.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #31

In other news. That means there are more people that will be infected with the poz. Then when they are infected with leftist ideology spread their disease each to their own countries and wreak havoc there.

Making SJWism and other isms and ists international.

This is how the ideology will propagate itself so that even if we manage to defeat the ideology on our own soils there is good reason to believe that the poz will come back via other countries that it has since infected. And will re-evangelize our countries back into the fold of globalism and other assorted ills.

We need an ideological vaccine to make ourselves permanently immune and ensure that other countries have that as well so as to possibly put an end to this menace once and for all.

Post: #32

Some thoughts from a guy who worked in the Canadian university system for a number of years:

(1) Demographics: depending on area, there are simply less kids being born and so universities have to get bums in seats somehow to pay the bills.

(2) Declining Government funding: Universities % of block/grant funding as a part of their budgets has been shrinking over time. They are slowly being starved of cash and are constantly on the lookout for new revenue sources. 50 years ago, universities, proportionately, got signficantly more government funding than they do now.

(3) Management gets to decide the size of management, and it's metastasizing over time.

Post: #33

Not to seem obsessed with our Saudi friends but it seems that you can't buy smarts or integrity, even if you buy the piece of paper that says otherwise.

Quote:http://mtstandard.com/news/local/organiz...user-share

'Organized,' 'belligerent cheaters' overwhelm Tech summer classes

Hunter Pauli and Renata Birkenbuel Montana Standard Sep 30, 2016 8

A group of "organized," "belligerent cheaters" overwhelmed several classes at Montana Tech this summer.

The spate of academic dishonesty, which resulted in the expulsion of 15 students, appears to have been far more systematic and widespread than previously reported.

Montana Tech professors and proctors were confronted by dozens of out-of-state Middle Eastern students blatantly cheating through a variety of methods, including smuggled cell phones, earpieces, fake calculators, smart watches, hand signals, mass bathroom breaks and at least one diversionary fake fainting episode, according to documents attached to a Faculty Senate report.

The report, authored by Montana Tech professors and proctors, details a summer-long escalation of cheating and resultant crackdowns culminating in students intimidating and threatening faculty members teaching general engineering courses which were populated at up to 10 times their typical class size. The documents, obtained by The Montana Standard, were not published online on the senate's web site.

General engineering lab director Matt Egloff said the situation escalated as cheaters became aggressive when their academic dishonesty was exposed throughout the summer.

“Faculty and staff proctoring these tests were outnumbered about 10:1 by these belligerent cheaters for all of these tests. Most of the proctors and faculty are old, small, etc. — in other words not people trained to handle a fight with a single 20-year-old let alone 100 of them. Had these angry belligerent cheaters decided to riot, we would have been overwhelmed,” Egloff said in the report.

Summer enrollment for out-of-state undergraduate students grew this summer by 122 percent, with 130 students compared to last summer’s 59, according to the Montana University System’s summer 2016 enrollment report.

In terms of enrollment, “It was a very good summer,” Provost and Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs Doug Abbott said.

Abbott said his office received reports of academic dishonesty concerning 46 students this summer. Thirty-one students were reported once, 14 twice and one student three times, for a total of 62 individual reported cases of cheating. The faculty senate report lists dozens more cases. Montana Tech’s academic dishonesty policy does not state how many infractions result in expulsion, but Abbott said he maintains a two-strike policy.

Five general and one mechanical engineering course are named in the report as affected by cheating. The general engineering courses are prerequisites for the more specialized fields of engineering offered at Montana Tech and other schools. According to the registrar’s office, summer enrollment for each of those 3-credit courses added up to 486 seats.

With the cost of non-resident summer tuition for three credits $2,457 a head, Montana Tech counted around $1.2 million in tuition from the six courses highlighted for cheating this summer. Abbott said the dishonest students, including those expelled, were not reimbursed.

RAMPANT CHEATING

While instructors clarified in the Faculty Senate report that not all students in the summer general engineering courses cheated, most did. The final course average of the 56 students in Nathan Huft’s general engineering 201 statics class was 37 percent, an F grade, despite extra credit for bonus questions, attendance quizzes and exam corrections.

“As a result, there was more than ample opportunity to earn a good grade and three students earned a course total greater than 100 percent. Nevertheless, only about 10 percent of the class earned a C or better,” Huft said in the report.

Cheating was so rampant that Huft and other instructors were unable to keep track of every instance. Sixteen students were found using phones, smart watches or similar devices during the first exam, with many more suspected. Huft lists in the report instances of students turning in quizzes with the same name and ID number but different handwriting, answers with identical solutions or errors on 90 percent of quizzes.

Other instructors faced similar challenges with dozens of cheaters per class. They responded with harsher exam environments, which reduced cheating but didn’t eliminate it, precipitating a summer-long arms race between cheaters and instructors. When instructors began checking student ID cards, cheaters adapted by forging them. When students observed cheating had their tests marked, they’d come back for another test session and try their luck again. Students in Huft’s class were allowed crib sheets for exams, and apparently copied the answers verbatim from the previous year’s exam, despite the exam having completely different questions and answers.

“As the summer continued the testing area became more and more monitored, and in a seemingly proportional manner the effort to get around the rules and continue to participate in misconduct without getting caught grew,” an unnamed student proctor said in the Faculty Senate report.

In Huft’s class, a student pretended to faint, forcing instructors to call paramedics. When he hit the floor, proctors caught four other students bring out hidden smart phones. The student refused medical attention when the ambulance arrived, and the name he gave was not on the class attendance list.

BRACING FOR FINALS

Egloff and other faculty members met with Chancellor Donald Blackketter, who personally taught one of the summer classes, to formulate a strategy for finals week. Students would be required to bring ID cards, and phones, watches or other gadgets would not be allowed — everything in students’ pockets would go in baggies on the floor. Pencils would be provided to thwart scanner pens, and calculators could not be shared. Students who came late or left the room early for any reason would get a zero. No talking would be allowed.

Egloff said in the report that as many faculty as could be found were brought in to proctor final exams for the general engineering classes. General engineering professor Larry Hunter was one of them.

“Some students were apparently ‘tasked’ with creating a disruption so that others could exchange answers during the distraction. Even at this late date students were attempting to keep cell phones available during the test — after they had been told they could not do this,” Hunter said in an email attached to the Faculty Senate report.

“This appears to be a well-planned and organized deliberate attempt to cheat,” Hunter said in the email.

Egloff requested earlier in the summer to hold the substantially larger classes in the gym, where proctors could separate test-takers. Abbott said this request was refused because athletic camps had booked the gym far in advance. Finals were held in the Student Union Building.

Egloff requested administrators ask Butte-Silver Bow police to station officers on campus until testing was complete. Unlike the University of Montana and Montana State University, Montana Tech does not have its own campus police force.

Abbott refused.

“I did not think it was necessary nor a good idea to have uniformed police occupy our campus,” Abbott said in an email to the Standard. “When is it a good idea to have uniformed police officers occupy a campus?”

Kevin McRae, the deputy commissioner of higher education for communications and human resources, said he doesn’t know if a university without a police force even has the technical authority to station police on campus.

“Therefore, from my perspective, the provost wisely declined to pursue the professor’s suggestion,” McRae said.

FINALS WEEK THREATS

Police weren’t stationed on campus during finals week, but they had to show up anyway.

The increased security for finals caused many students to fail their tests. Some students were late, others provided fake IDs, refused to sit in assigned seats, refused to stop talking or signaling, or were found with hidden ear pieces, among other infractions.

One student ejected for cheating began screaming.

Maggie Peterson, vice chancellor of administration and finance, happened to be an impromptu proctor at the time. She had stopped in the SUB’s Marcus Deli to buy a soda when faculty asked if she could help out on spur-of-the-moment during testing in the Copper Lounge.

When the disrupting student refused to leave, Peterson confirmed she called security, who called police.

“I had never helped out ever before,” Peterson told The Standard. “I just kind of stood there and helped to make sure no one left.” Other ejected students joined in, as well as students still taking tests.

“Aside from Dr. Blackketter administering his own test, she was the only vice chancellor or dean who came down to witness and assess firsthand, what we were all putting up with all summer long,” Egloff said in the report.

Egloff said in the report that students screamed at faculty, proctors, staff and student employees present in the SUB, calling them racist and attempting to goad them while filming them with phones.

Female employees were singled out for verbal harassment, and one female student was tripped as she walked through a large group of ejected students, according to the report.

The report said large groups of students “mobbed” an instructor and several proctors after testing finished to get their tests back, and security guards had to intervene.

The report says when a mob of students followed instructors back to the Science and Engineering Building, security had to shove them out the door and lock it behind them.

One proctor received threatening messages on his phone after the tests.

“Many faculty and staff expressed concern for their personal safety during and after these classes,” Egloff said in the report.

“Bottom line: Faculty, staff, and students were put in serious danger all summer long from this group of belligerent cheaters,” the report ended.

OTHER SCHOOLS NOT INFORMED

Provost Abbott said the home institutions of Montana Tech’s summer cheaters were not informed of their students’ academic dishonesty. He declined to disclose what schools the students came from, citing student privacy concerns.

Nathan Huft said numerous students in his class missed exams and provided doctors’ notes for makeup tests. He said in the report some notes were suspicious, with medical excuses from doctors in Los Angeles and Pocatello, Idaho.

Metallurgy professor Bill Gleason said an email was sent out early in the summer requesting more proctors because of a substantial increase of non-resident summer students from Idaho. Gleason could not recall who sent the email.

Two-hundred and fifty miles south of Butte on Interstate 15, Idaho State University in Pocatello has had cheating problems of its own. The New York Times reported in March that cheating by Saudi and Kuwaiti students at ISU is a byproduct of scholarships provided by sponsor governments, regardless of a student’s grasp of English.

ISU’s associate dean of science and engineering David Rodgers told the Times 80 to 90 percent of cheating reported in recent semesters in his department involved the university’s roughly 1,500 foreign students, of whom Saudis and Kuwaitis make up 77 percent.

Rodgers told the Montana Standard that cheating at ISU has been on a case-by-case basis, and not like the large coordinated effort seen at Montana Tech this summer.

Rodgers said if ISU students were in fact heading up the road to Butte to garner general engineering credits from Montana Tech, the classes offered this summer wouldn’t even transfer back to ISU as fulfilled prerequisites for more advanced courses, only as engineering elective credits.

If any of Montana Tech’s cheaters did come from Pocatello, Idaho State University isn’t rushing to claim them.

...

Many of Idaho State’s Saudi students study under the same Saudi government program as the 36 Montana Tech students implicated in a bribery and grade-changing scandal in 2012. Those students paid tuition courtesy of the $6 billion King Abdullah Scholarship Program, which sponsors up to 90 percent of Saudi students studying abroad.

...

In an anonymous student writing sample obtained by The Standard, an international student with very poor English writing skills accuses the university of stereotyping “Arab people” by fingering some as cheaters. The writer also threatens, “I will tell my government with what happens here” and “Also, I will tell my university What happen here with no respect and racism here. Thanks for bad semester and bad university.”

...

Egloff, for one, did not want to speculate why visiting students would go to such organized lengths to win credits not earned.

“I can’t ascribe to the motives,” said Egloff, adding it’s important how Tech improves the system to prevent any future cheating of a similar magnitude.

...

Maybe if they put as much effort into studying as they did into organised cheating, intimidation and feminine caterwauling then they'd have done just fine.

Culture.

Post: #34

Followup:

http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-an...b33fe.html

Quote: WikiLeaks: Saudis tried to shield students from Montana Tech scandal

Associated Press Jun 22, 2015

CAIRO — A group of Saudi students caught in a cheating scandal at a Montana college were offered flights home by their kingdom’s diplomats to avoid the possibility of deportation or arrest, according to a cache of Saudi Embassy memos recently published by WikiLeaks and a senior official at the school involved.

The students were in a ring of roughly 30 alleged cheaters at Montana Tech accused of having systematically forged grades by giving presents to a college employee.

The cheating was discovered — and the staffer was fired — after an investigation made public in early 2012, but the memos reveal for the first time that the students were almost all Saudis and that their government booked them flights home after a meeting between college administrators and Saudi diplomats in Washington just before the scandal broke.

A Saudi memo describing the meeting, dated Feb. 3, 2012, and labeled “Secret / Urgent,” says it was Montana Tech Chancellor Donald Blackketter who floated the idea of flying the students out of the United States. The memo goes on to say that an unidentified diplomat at the embassy subsequently “issued travel tickets to those students ... to return to the kingdom so they don’t face jail or deportation by the American authorities.”

Reached by phone at his home in Butte, the college’s vice chancellor of academic affairs Douglas Abbott told The Associated Press the Saudi Embassy’s account of the meeting sounded accurate.

“I think that we might’ve recommended that,” he said of the flights. Montana law doesn’t bar the alteration of school records — even in return for gifts — but Abbott said that, at the time, campus authorities believed the students could be arrested or even expelled from the country.

“We didn’t know whether this would happen, whether ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) would show up on the Montana Tech campus,” he said.

Blackketter did not return messages seeking comment.

The revelations caused a scandal at Montana Tech, a small four-year college located in Butte. Originally chartered as the Montana State School of Mines, the school is known for its metallurgy, mining and engineering specialties. Scores of Saudi students — many of them sponsored by their embassy’s cultural section or the Saudi Arabian Oil Co. — attend the college every year to study for degrees in fields like petroleum engineering.

Officials first noticed transcript alterations on Oct. 25, 2011, and irregularities piled up as the school began digging, according to a statement read out by Abbott during a meeting on Jan. 26, 2012, and later posted to YouTube.

Abbott said college investigators interviewed an unnamed employee who admitted altering the transcripts. An audit of three years of records threw up instances of grades being changed, grades being deleted from transcripts and of “ghost registrations” — grades being awarded for classes never taken. In the most extreme case, a student had 16 grade changes, four courses deleted, and six courses added to their transcript.

“It casts an unfavorable light on the institution,” Abbott acknowledged in the video. But he said officials had been transparent. “The campus is not — has not — tried to hide any of this,” he said.

The Saudi memos reveal that, on Jan. 4, several days before the scandal became public knowledge, Abbott and Blackketter went to the Saudi Embassy in Washington to brief officials there about the cheating allegations.

Abbott told AP that the college had been advised by legal counsel that the Saudi Embassy — which together with Saudi Aramco was sponsoring 33 of the suspected cheaters at Montana Tech — should be told of the issue.

He declined to comment on why his colleague had apparently suggested flying the students out of the country, saying he didn’t remember that aspect of the conversation in any detail.

Abbott said the college’s legal counsel had warned against naming the students or identifying them by nationality. He added that the college notified the Office of the Commissioner of Higher Education in Montana and even called in the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security to investigate what he believed were possible crimes.

Officials from both agencies arrived on campus on Jan. 9 for interviews, Abbott said, but no one was ever charged. He said that was because the rogue employee didn’t accept money for the transcript alterations.

The employee did accept “gifts” in return for the grade changes, according to another Saudi memo, dated Feb. 2. Abbott said he didn’t remember exactly what the gifts were, describing them only as “small tokens of appreciation.”

He declined to identify the employee involved.

Abbott could not immediately say whether the college called law enforcement before or after he and Blackketter visited the Saudi Embassy. Messages left with the FBI and with the DHS public affairs department were not immediately returned.

Many of the students were eventually expelled, although it’s unclear what happened to all of them. Abbott said he didn’t know whether the students flew to Saudi Arabia before the scandal broke and law enforcement authorities showed up. However the Feb. 3 embassy memo is phrased in a way that suggests the flights had not yet occurred.

Abbott confirmed information in the Saudi memos which stated that seven students had returned to the college, including at least two who said their grades had been changed without their knowledge — unusual incidents which neither Abbott nor the memo explained in any further detail.

Abbott said that 18 students were ultimately expelled and that an unspecified number of graduates had their degrees revoked.

The Saudi Embassy in Washington did not return a message seeking comment on the flights. The embassy has not responded to repeated requests for comment about the massive cache of diplomatic memos made public by WikiLeaks on Friday, although a recent statement carried by the official Saudi news agency appears to acknowledge that the memos paint an accurate picture of the kingdom’s diplomats and their activities abroad.

“The documents leaked fall in line with the public policy of the Foreign Ministry,” spokesman Osama Nugali said Saturday.

Post: #35

Quote:The students were in a ring of roughly 30 alleged cheaters at Montana Tech accused of having systematically forged grades by giving presents to a college employee.

Bear in mind that is legitimate training if you're going to work anywhere in the Middle East. Shit doesn't get done unless you pay an Ahmed to get his cousin Ahab to process the right paperwork. Salim Salimson gets pissed because Daddy paid good money for him to get a degree, and it's the degree, not the learning that counts above all.

The screaming and rage upon being discovered cheating can be explained simply: narcissism - of a slightly different form - is endemic in Muslim culture, because Arabs in particular place massive status on exterior appearances. Hence gold bathrooms, swanning around with six models on one's arm ... and getting hold of degrees even if you've learned nothing to justify it, the external appearance, the piece of paper, is enough to assuage the ego. You assuage the ego by looking successful, not by being it, something that's imposed by how you were brought up in a shitarse culture where "honor" can be given or taken away at a whim. We are heading the same way in the West, but for different reasons.

Read a book like On Wings of Eagles and you'll see it applied in "enlightened", "civilised", Shah-ruled, pre-Ayatollah Iran, too. Any time you look up a survey of which countries have the greatest trust in their institutions, any country that has a Muslim majority nation in it generally comes way down the table.

That's simply because, as with our local Australian Aboriginal population that can't seem to run a specially-made "Aboriginal Corporation" without one family coming to dominate it and run roughshod over every other family that comes under its jurisdiction, institutions don't count over there. Connections, i.e. nepotism, i.e.e. bribes, do.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #36

Yep.

In most of the developing world, the ethic that Leonard & Paracelsus described is the prevailing one. You guys are absolutely right. It can be summarized as:

1. Look busy.

2. Scam.

3. Form over substance.

4. Rote memorization.

5. Copy what other people are doing.

6. Cut the throat of the guy next to you.

With the exception of some pockets of merit, this is basically the attitude in most of China, India, Middle East, and Africa. Not everywhere, of course. But you can make this generalization to some extent.

   

   

   

   


And this attitude seeps into everything else: business, finance, government, etc. You can't trust the numbers they give you. There is no transparency. When all is said and done, the institutions are not as sound as they should be.

And this is why the Western university system is so important to preserve. For all its faults, it's better than the alternative that is out there. As in so many other things, people here have no idea how good they have it.

And they have no idea how bad it really is outside these islands of Reason, Merit, Order, and Discipline.

This is why it's so disappointing and so embittering to see the American and European universities become torn apart by political correctness, SJWism, and the like.

Post: #37

(06-17-2017 11:29 PM)Paracelsus Wrote:  The screaming and rage upon being discovered cheating can be explained simply: narcissism - of a slightly different form - is endemic in Muslim culture, because Arabs in particular place massive status on exterior appearances. Hence gold bathrooms, swanning around with six models on one's arm ... and getting hold of degrees even if you've learned nothing to justify it, the external appearance, the piece of paper, is enough to assuage the ego. You assuage the ego by looking successful, not by being it, something that's imposed by how you were brought up in a shitarse culture where "honor" can be given or taken away at a whim. We are heading the same way in the West, but for different reasons.

Read a book like On Wings of Eagles and you'll see it applied in "enlightened", "civilised", Shah-ruled, pre-Ayatollah Iran, too. Any time you look up a survey of which countries have the greatest trust in their institutions, any country that has a Muslim majority nation in it generally comes way down the table.

That's simply because, as with our local Australian Aboriginal population that can't seem to run a specially-made "Aboriginal Corporation" without one family coming to dominate it and run roughshod over every other family that comes under its jurisdiction, institutions don't count over there. Connections, i.e. nepotism, i.e.e. bribes, do.

Partly it is ego and partly it is based on something else.

In Saudi Arabia and other gulf states you get the job your family lobbies for and you get the job you seemingly can perform. Of course they can always hire a Western or Chinese engineer to do the real work, but he who gets the piece of paper will get paid 5 to 10 times more as his local "supervisor". The supervisor has no knowledge in petroleum engineering, but he will be nominally the boss. Many jobs in the Middle East depend on what you say you can do.

Of course they would also behave violently since back home they can have professors and tutors executed or deported, maybe even have their female family members raped to put a point across.

The honor system is purely external and convoluted. It is honorable to threaten or beat up a professor and get the good marks, but it is not honorable to get honestly bad marks and have to repeat the course.

Of course there are other metrics which make it hard for them to compete:

Saudi Arabia:
Inbreeding 51.2%
IQ 84

Kuwait:
Inbreeding 64%
IQ 86

In addition the mindset fostered by Islam does not help, but hinders tremendously, though I blame Islam also for the level of inbreeding and low IQs as well.

---------------


That said - the ones coming over are certainly a bit smarter and they could pass the courses if they studied hard for years before coming to universities, but this won't happen.

By the way - cheating is also rampant among Indians and Chinese, but at least they don't get violent when it happens and many given enough time can actually catch up on language skills and other abilities. But entry exams or SAT scores have known to be manipulated by many of them:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/n...ng-episode

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-...story.html

Post: #38

I'm on my phone, so I can't quote individual posts. But I do want to comment as someone who has experienced US higher education institution as a foreign (F-1 visa), both for undergraduate and graduate degrees (bachelors, masters and PhD in engineering) and has attended both public and private institutions (big well-known engineering school for undergraduate, Ivy for graduate).

1. Regarding taxation proposal to reduce number of foreign students:

It won't work as the taxes will simply get passed down to the students. And foreign students will, reluctantly but surely, accept the additional tuition hikes. When I was an undergrad, the financial crisis hit, the state slashed my university's budget and tuition increased by 40% in the 4 years I attended. It wasn't fun but my parents covered it.

There is only one way to reduce the number of foreign students: cap the number of visas. H1B is capped at 80,000 visas a year. Thank God as an unlimited number of H1B visas would've have flooded the US with even more Indian IT workers.

Cap the number of F-1 visas and cap it hard. Ultimately, had I not been able to attend a US institution I would've been fine. I effectively already had admissions to the best engineering school in my country. It might've also spared me the misery of interacting with Indian-American feminists...

2. On cheating by foreign students:

I can attest this is true. When I was a sophomore I took a class that got embroiled in a cheating scandal. Turns out a lot of the Indians (straight from India) got access to the midterm ahead of time and cheated.

Every Indian person who did well got investigated (whether they were American citizens, straight from India or grew up somewhere like myself). Some people complained about racism. I was just shaking my head and telling them: "Obviously some of you guys cheated. What did you expect?"

It's funny though. I got the second highest grade on the midterm. I was surprised these two Indian girls (best friends too) got a better grade than me, seeing as I knew they weren't that sharp. Turns out they both cheated. I ended up with the highest grade after all.

Tying in with my F-1 cap proposal: any student who gets caught cheating should have their high school blacklisted for a few years. Some universities already do this, but this should be done through the federal government. Consistent violations (a three-strike rule) should have high schools permanently banned for having any of its students ever get a F-1 visa.

3. Mandatory leave after graduation. The J-1 visa, uses for visiting researchers, has this particular rule. Once your visa expires/you graduate, you have to leave the country for a set minimum period of time. Too many people attend U.S. universities with the hope of immigrating to the U.S.

I have friends, who perhaps should not really stay in the US, yet got H1B visas or are on their OPT (optional practical training) extension hoping to get a H1B. This is despite the fact that when we apply for F1 visas we are suppose to show proof of stake in our home country, implicitly agreeing to return once we're done.

I won't say too much here since I am obviously biased. But the U.S. may want to decide on exemptions based solely on national interest. The United States does not have enough native doctorates in engineering to fuel its own R&D. This may be the one exception the US might want to take. Perhaps also prioritizing F1 visas for PhD students. I would also posit that companies and national research labs that want to hire foreign-born PhDs to pay up a hefty price (e.g. $100K) to show they really cannot find American citizens for the job. But again, I'm biased here. It's really Americans' decision to make on who and where to make exceptions if any.

4. On alternatives to higher education:
Starve the beast indeed. I think many degrees can be taught online. It's perhaps even arguable that even the doctorate system is outdated. It's certainly an argument proposed by Freeman Dyson. And looking at the scholarly work done by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, and our very own Quintus Curtius (in contrast to Zuckerberg), PhDs as a credential of valid scholarly work may be a thing of the past.

The one exception I can think of are STEM majors. But even then, it would not be inconceivable to me to have young men and women do year-long engineering co-ops while taking online classes. Accreditation of co-ops and online classes would provide an interesting challenge. The biggest impediment will most likely be the current crop of companies and engineers who aren't sure what to make of these new hybrid-style educated engineers. Ultimately it may end up as an immutable problem and perhaps STEM will remain as the only thing standing when the entire higher education system comes falling down. Not least since I find basic STEM research done at universities hard to transpose in another format that does not require some form of higher ed institution.

I do look forward to seeing what Jordan Peterson comes up with. He's very excited about the project he's working on to provide a high quality online liberal arts education at 10x or even 100x less the cost.

5. On HCE's comments regarding parents being low-information cucks for sending their kids to Harvard, Yale and the like:

I can see why that sentiment may appear. However these schools provide one of the best return on investments in life. Even at a sticker price of $300K, it's well worth the price as the ROI can be staggering.

These schools are the gatekeepers of the globalist elite. I don't find the quality of the education better. Having taught a few courses as a grad student I can say with confidence they don't have a special sauce other schools don't have.

But man, the opportunities you get exposed to are insane. Already in my life, I have met Nobel Prize winners, billionaires, Fortune 500 company CEOs, and some of the most powerful 'intellectuals' in the world. Pick your tech billionaire. I bet I'm at most 2 degrees of separation away from him.

Attending these universities is the modern day version of being bequeath an aristocratic title. That pedigree never leaves you and it opens doors for you that you would never have access to otherwise.

These schools have a few purposes:
1. Connecting the kids of the global elite to each other. For example, Rahul Gandhi, the scion of the Nehru-Gandhi family that runs the Congress Party in India, attended Harvard. The camaraderie these people develop makes it hard for them to break away from their elite programming. Emotional investment at its finest.
2. Connecting the global elite to each other. Say your Chinese kid went to Stanford. And now Tesla is coming to China. Well what a lucky coincidence your kid did his undergrad thesis with the professor who sits on the Board of Trustees of the Stanford Engineering school with Elon Musk. Now you get first dibs on lucrative deals, maybe your kid gets to run Tesla China. Of course, that's after your kid did his stint at McKinsey China for a few years. Or heck, you want to get in on the carbon cap'n'trade shtick in your country. Good thing your kid's undergrad advisor was one of the lead authors on the IPCC report and knows every player in the climate change world.
3. Filling up the ranks of the elite. Every movement (regardless of how evil) needs to perpetually get new blood. Especially the elite, since they usually don't produce enough kids to maintain their own size. Get some super smart Jewish or 2nd generation Indian or Chinese kid into these schools. Let peer pressure take care of the rest: they're typically insecure overambitious kids. And in a bid to not be outdone many of them end up signing up with the Wall Street firms and elite consulting firms. And nowadays with the Silicon Valley companies as well. You're a Harvard-educated Goldman Sachs banker. Your college roommate is a Silicon Valley tech VC kid. Your third roommate is the scion of some royal family in the Middle-East. You may not started off as a globalist elite, but you sure became one. Give it a few decades and these kids, despite perhaps their parents intention, are now fully immersed in elitist thinking and behavior.

Ultimately though, you do have to sell your soul at some point to end up working at McKinsey, Goldman Sachs, BCG, D.E.Shaw etc long-term. Does it surprise anyone on this forum that Jeff Bezos attended Princeton and then worked at D.E. Shaw for 8 years before starting Amazon and using some dubious business strategies to get where he is? Not to mention using WaPo to malign the president? It almost always starts from the elite schools: Gates, Zuckerberg (Harvard), Musk, Elizabeth Holmes, Larry Page, Sergei Brin (Stanford), Bezos, Eric Schmidt, that Asian female CEO of Reddit, Paul Krugman, Ben Bernanke (Princeton), and so many countless more. Shit, every US president in recent history has attended an Ivy.

I don't think I could have sold my soul like that, despite being offered the chance. Making money off the backs of hard-working folks like my parents just seems wrong to me. But I've seen many kids get turned by the dark side. The marketing these schools and other globalist institutions have is insidiously good: status, money, set up of life. What's not to like? The amount of times I've heard: "Genghis, you're getting your PhD from X school and if you work at company Y, you'll be set for life". True...but at what cost though? My consciousness and my humanity? No thanks.

Quite a few of the parents, perhaps unaware of the full implications, even encourage the behavior. Although some parents, like the hedge fund dad of that gay Muslim kid who got into Stanford, know exactly what the score is.

Today it's the elite universities that act as training grounds for the next generation of elite douchebags. Maybe that's always been the case, especially with the Ivy Leagues. Tomorrow it may be something else. But the elite will always find a way to distinguish itself from the rest of humanity. Even with a collapse of higher education at large, these universities will probably be unaffected. Most have billion dollar endowments and can fund even bullshit degrees with ease on their own. Harvard already can offer free tuition to all its students if it likes to. The other elite schools aren't too far away from that.

Make no mistake, it's not low-information parents sending their kids to these schools. And neither is the quality of the education or the cost of attendance the issue. When you start seeing these schools as the incubators of the elite, a lot of things suddenly make sense.

Post: #39

(06-17-2017 10:26 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Not to seem obsessed with our Saudi friends but it seems that you can't buy smarts or integrity, even if you buy the piece of paper that says otherwise.

Quote:http://mtstandard.com/news/local/organiz...user-share

'Organized,' 'belligerent cheaters' overwhelm Tech summer classes

Hunter Pauli and Renata Birkenbuel Montana Standard Sep 30, 2016 8

A group of "organized," "belligerent cheaters" overwhelmed several classes at Montana Tech this summer.

The spate of academic dishonesty, which resulted in the expulsion of 15 students, appears to have been far more systematic and widespread than previously reported.

Montana Tech professors and proctors were confronted by dozens of out-of-state Middle Eastern students blatantly cheating through a variety of methods, including smuggled cell phones, earpieces, fake calculators, smart watches, hand signals, mass bathroom breaks and at least one diversionary fake fainting episode, according to documents attached to a Faculty Senate report.

The report, authored by Montana Tech professors and proctors, details a summer-long escalation of cheating and resultant crackdowns culminating in students intimidating and threatening faculty members teaching general engineering courses which were populated at up to 10 times their typical class size. The documents, obtained by The Montana Standard, were not published online on the senate's web site.

General engineering lab director Matt Egloff said the situation escalated as cheaters became aggressive when their academic dishonesty was exposed throughout the summer.

“Faculty and staff proctoring these tests were outnumbered about 10:1 by these belligerent cheaters for all of these tests. Most of the proctors and faculty are old, small, etc. — in other words not people trained to handle a fight with a single 20-year-old let alone 100 of them. Had these angry belligerent cheaters decided to riot, we would have been overwhelmed,” Egloff said in the report.

In an anonymous student writing sample obtained by The Standard, an international student with very poor English writing skills accuses the university of stereotyping “Arab people” by fingering some as cheaters. The writer also threatens, “I will tell my government with what happens here” and “Also, I will tell my university What happen here with no respect and racism here. Thanks for bad semester and bad university.”

Maybe if they put as much effort into studying as they did into organised cheating, intimidation and feminine caterwauling then they'd have done just fine.

Culture.

Brutal, but not surprising (especially to anyone who has lived in a society where success is valued over everything else).

Note the "us versus them" mentality of the cheating students. They don't have a moral code. Their worldview is reduced to "anyone who helps me succeed is good and anyone who hinders my success (such as not allowing me to cheat) is bad (and therefore I am justified in calling them a racist, sexually harassing them and resorting to violence."

Post: #40

I typically post this wherever a university thread pops up. I find it insightful and hilarious.

http://www.fredoneverything.net/PoonU.shtml

Quote:The Intergalactic Poontang and Klingon University
Common Sense Takes Academia by Surprise

February 22, 2015

When Willy Jack Fergweiler of Bluefield, West Virginia founded the Intergalactic Galactic Pooontang and Klingon University, which came to be called simply Poon U., no one paid attention. Willy Jack was eighteen years old, and had just graduated from Bluefield Senior High. Bluefield had not hitherto been a hotbed of technological revolution. This was about to change.

By a rare confluence of recessive genes, Willy Bill had a measured IQ of 193. He loved computers, and wanted to go to Stanford in computer science. But Stanford charged tuition way beyond Willy Jack’s resources, even when he worked weekends chopping cord wood. When the Admissions Committee saw "193" next to "West Virginia," they took it for a misprint and trashed the application.

Willy Jack began thinking. Since you could do everything on line (except that), and since it made him mad that schools discriminated against the impoverished, even when they worked weekends cutting cord word, he decided he would put them out of business. It just seemed like the right thing to do.

Twenty years earlier, the idea would have been ridiculous. A kid with an IQ of 193, however, could avail himself of the distributed cognitive stratification made possible by the internet. The web made everywhere the same place. Which meant accessible to anyone with a server. He had one.

Among his many email contacts from Santa Clara to New York was Heinrick “Smoked” Salamon, a professor emeritus who had taught Medieval French Literature at Harvard. Salamon, something of a maverick, was known around the Ivy League as just “Fish.” Willy Jack Skyped him and broached his idea: Put a university on a server in Bluefield and shut down the brick-and-mortar schools. Such as Harvard.

They pow-wowed. College cost way too much, agreed Salamon, which created a market for a cheaper approach. (Being a geek, Willy Jack spoke of the “slope of the swindle gradient.”) Fish further noted that the quality of education on most campuses was abysmal. This included Harvard, which had gone multiculti, touchy-feely, and addicted to Victimms' Studies. Fish was, in a word, pissed.

Fish in particular knew the scam. Students, having been told that a college education was essential to their futures, went into lifelong debt-slavery to pay outrageous expenses at allegedly reputable universities, where they found classes of 250 being taught over a PA system in an auditorium by third-rate graduate assistants and adjunct professors. They also had to listen to endless droning about rape cultures and the oppression of left-handed lesbian Guatemalans. It was a rip.

This accentuated the swindle gradient. The universities, the conspirators agreed, were ripe to fall from the tree.

Fish had reservations, though. He thought “Intergalactic Poontang and Klingon University” didn’t sound solemn enough. Neither did listing Darth Vader as founder, which Willy Jack wanted to do.

Willy Jack, who after all was male and eighteen, replied, “Yeah, but don’t we need name recognition? Who can remember things like Northern Iowa State? But... Poontang U.?"

Fish had to concede the point. Poon U. it was.

The conspirators set to work. Willy Jack, a techy wizard, would provide the software, and Salamon, the content.

Fish called other retired profs, most of whom were sick of what had been done to their beloved universities. Weary of having to give high grades to diversity that could barely read in courses the renegades regarded as idiotic, they were ready to revolt. They flocked, electronically, to Poon U.

Fish bought a camcorder and wireless microphone and they began recording the lectures they had given at MIT, Yale, Harvard, and so on. Meanwhile Willy Jack had written a program that turned a large-screen tv into a virtual classroom. It was easy coding. The prof could see all the students, and they could see him. He could click on a student who had a question, and the questioner would appear on everyone's screen. It was just like a real class.

Fish then called the president of a struggling liberal-arts school in Pasadena, Coastal Community College.

He said, “Here’s the deal. You offer our courses on line for credit. The kids watch the lectures and then the discussion part our profs do from home on WillyJacknet. We call it Ivy on the Cheap. It’ll attract students. When we have enough courses, you can offer a degree at a quarter of the cost. The universities will scream like gutted banshees, but what can they do? You’re accredited. You can’t lose.”

“But what about our professors now, if the kids study with you?”

“Pension them off. I hear Starbucks is hiring. You can’t make omelets without breaking eggs,” said Fish practically. “Once we get this thing rolling, you won’t need a physical university, just the server. Sell the campus and pocket the take. Pay off the profs. What’s not to like?”

The idea took off. The universities duly screamed, which did no good. Then Willy Jack, by now something of a student of higher education, said, “This is fun. Let’s eliminate law schools too.”

“Won’t work,“ said Fish. “You can’t take the bar exam if you didn’t finish law school.”

“Gotta be a way,” said Willy Jack, who knew not of law schools.

There was a way, though it took Fish a couple of weeks to come up with it. They would have their own bar exam, twice as difficult as the real one. Employers would learn of this and take Poon grads seriously. They would hire them as law clerks, pay them as lawyers, and have a bar-licensed hack who would sign off on the work as his own.

“Geez,” said Willy Jack, who having the 193 IQ favored the smart, whom he saw as an oppressed class, as they were forced to go to stupid schools. “Why make them go to classes at all? Smart dudes can, you know, like just do the lectures and read the books. Professors aren’t really good for anything, except to make you do your homework.”

Willy Jack was becoming insightful.

The final shovel of dirt on the coffin were the Intergalactic Record Exams. The absolute hell-borne wake-up-screaming nightmare of the universities was that employers might start hiring by what students knew instead of where they had spent four years drinking beer. Willy Jack began coding like an obsessive-compulsive with Asperger’s, which in fact he was, this being the key to software development. He later estimated that he had consumed 580 packs of Cheetos and thirteen cases of Jolt Cola during the effort, which lasted three weeks. The Renegade Professors fed him questions. The result was a multi-disciplinary, intensive, unholy bear of a test. If an eleven-year-old passed it, as several proceeded to do, they clearly had a university education.

After Microsoft agreed to accept scores instead of degrees, the dam broke. The rest is history. Fourteen years later, thousands of professors were on food stamps, along with diversity counselors, featherbedding administrators, and football staffs. Traditional universities had been replaced by a roomful of servers in a former garden-implements factory in Bluefield, now the home of WillyJacknet. Harvard itself, with its huge endowment, had sold the buildings and reconstituted itself as the Greater Boston Hedge Fund.

Willy Jack anf Fish Salomon smiled like Cheshire cats.

Post: #41

I think it's actually a good deal for everyone if the intl students are rich and pay for themselves. What bothers me is when I meet foreign students and graduates (STEM, nursing, etc) who either came here on a free ride (many even had their housing covered) or they came right after graduating and landed jobs because of connections with other foreigners. Those spots and jobs should be going to kids who paid their dues growing up in America and taking out huge loans with the promise of starting a career after college.

You see this particularly in fields like nursing. In the great recession we had american students graduating and unable to find NURSING placements. However I saw lots of Filipinos coming over and getting entry level jobs. Granted they were in nursing homes or other undesirable placements but they shouldn't have been able to compete at all with an american college grad. The reason they'd usually get hired is the nurse manager was another filipino.

It's one thing when the jobs are blue collar. Let unskilled/semi-skilled laborers compete internationally. Fine. It's quite another when America pushes it's top students into a mountain of debt they'll never get out from under. Many can't even afford to leave home after college.

Meanwhile a lot of these elite intl students go back home and get great jobs because of their american diploma. our education system is shitty compared to the rest of the world. We have top universities sure. I can understand those degrees being coveted by a japanese diabatsu.

But get this. A lot of chinese are now sending their kids to the USA for high school! They don't care about the quality of our school system. They want them to learn english and the american way of life.

Why? I've talked to these kids in first class shuttling back and forth from Shanghai/Beijing to New York/LA. Their parents are rich in china. but they had to struggle and deal with so much corruption. They don't trust their govt. There's massive pollution Then they come to America on vacations and see how easy it is to do business here. The sky is clear. This shit happened in Vancouver. They just skipped sending their kids to high school and instead bought up tracts of housing to park cash and get citizenship.

Post: #42

(06-18-2017 06:14 AM)Travel Museums Wrote:  But get this. A lot of chinese are now sending their kids to the USA for high school! They don't care about the quality of our school system. They want them to learn english and the american way of life.

Not entirely true. I've met a lot of Chinese parents who do think that Western education systems are superior, or at a minimum, they want their kid to be able to graduate high school without the terror of Chinese homework and Chinese standardized exams.

Post: #43

(06-18-2017 06:26 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(06-18-2017 06:14 AM)Travel Museums Wrote:  But get this. A lot of chinese are now sending their kids to the USA for high school! They don't care about the quality of our school system. They want them to learn english and the american way of life.

Not entirely true. I've met a lot of Chinese parents who do think that Western education systems are superior, or at a minimum, they want their kid to be able to graduate high school without the terror of Chinese homework and Chinese standardized exams.

God forbid you don't want your kid to grow up an awkward drone. Most of the Chinese people I've met who studied abroad in high school and beyond are so much more well-adjusted than the ones who were forced to grind out the gaokao.

Post: #44

Yeah, I wrote a bunch of fixes that would stamp out this nonsense but then I remembered that it's all about money and that these universities would probably go bankrupt if it weren't for this disgusting perversion of education that goes on there.

Post: #45

(06-14-2017 07:04 PM)Blaster Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 03:34 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  The real travesty here is Chinese, Saudi and other students getting subpar education despite paying millions. You really have to be a grade-A low-information cuck to pay to send your child for a dumbing down & indoctrination course at Harvard, Berkeley, Yale, etc.

You can bet the Chinese are not enrolling in identity studies programs and sociology.

Good bet. I was thinking the same.
Most Chinese and Indian inter students study in Business and Management and STEM fields.



http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...-students/

I'd be interested in learning the level of cheating in each field. It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that there are more cheating in sociology and liberal arts than in STEM fields. And honestly I wouldn't fault them for cheating in sociology.

******
The Gaokao is grilling, but many Chinese still want to keep it because it is seen as an equalizer. It's the only way for poor kids to get a chance to compete with rich, well-connected kids. Rich families can afford oversea studies but most poor families can't get.

Quote:God forbid you don't want your kid to grow up an awkward drone. Most of the Chinese people I've met who studied abroad in high school and beyond are so much more well-adjusted than the ones who were forced to grind out the gaokao.

Some will 'slick up' once they clash enough with social reality. Others who can afford to remain awkward drones, well, they have their own distinct usefulness for society.

*******

One thing about Gaokao is that it has serious counter-cheating measures beyond anything I have seen anywhere else (must see! You might want to adopt it):

https://www.quora.com/Do-Chinese-people-...le-Zhou-28

Post: #46

(06-18-2017 06:55 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

(06-18-2017 06:26 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(06-18-2017 06:14 AM)Travel Museums Wrote:  But get this. A lot of chinese are now sending their kids to the USA for high school! They don't care about the quality of our school system. They want them to learn english and the american way of life.

Not entirely true. I've met a lot of Chinese parents who do think that Western education systems are superior, or at a minimum, they want their kid to be able to graduate high school without the terror of Chinese homework and Chinese standardized exams.

God forbid you don't want your kid to grow up an awkward drone. Most of the Chinese people I've met who studied abroad in high school and beyond are so much more well-adjusted than the ones who were forced to grind out the gaokao.

I have a client who is basically paying me to socialize her son. I come over once a week and make him and his friend touch raw meat and other seemingly terrifying things that they've never done in their 15 years of life experience.

Post: #47

(06-18-2017 09:08 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(06-18-2017 06:55 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

(06-18-2017 06:26 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(06-18-2017 06:14 AM)Travel Museums Wrote:  But get this. A lot of chinese are now sending their kids to the USA for high school! They don't care about the quality of our school system. They want them to learn english and the american way of life.

Not entirely true. I've met a lot of Chinese parents who do think that Western education systems are superior, or at a minimum, they want their kid to be able to graduate high school without the terror of Chinese homework and Chinese standardized exams.

God forbid you don't want your kid to grow up an awkward drone. Most of the Chinese people I've met who studied abroad in high school and beyond are so much more well-adjusted than the ones who were forced to grind out the gaokao.

I have a client who is basically paying me to socialize her son. I come over once a week and make him and his friend touch raw meat and other seemingly terrifying things that they've never done in their 15 years of life experience.

We found out the secret to Suits business. Make 15 year old boys touch your raw meat

Post: #48

My major was all writing for finals, and classes too small to cheat in. As a result, I never had a foreign student in any of my classes.

I think a list of the posts here are very odd, and don't really think everything all the way through.

International students pay way above full tuition and effectively subsidize your education, you shouldn't want to bar them.

While cheating in intro courses is possible, as the major progresses it becomes much more difficult. As well, I'm assuming no one here was in a fraternity or on a sports team in college, because I think every organization had a test bank with answer keys for business and accounting courses. While foreigners might be more compelled to cheat, their certainly not the only ones doing so.

Most senior seminar courses are capped at 25 people a class, and are basically impossible to fake if you want have a minimum amount of skills in the subject (Even in a BS Sociology course, you have to know your BS in order to write about it).

As well, the reality is that the best and brightest are coming to the US from other countries, paying a premium to be here, and I'm not sure if that's something to be dissuaded

Post: #49

(06-18-2017 09:08 AM)Suits Wrote:  ...
I have a client who is basically paying me to socialize her son. I come over once a week and make him and his friend touch raw meat and other seemingly terrifying things that they've never done in their 15 years of life experience.

Holy shit. God knows how they'd react to some of the stuff I have to do when out hunting.

Post: #50

What gets me is the prevalance of headscarves, which only emerged in the last two or three years.

In the USA, the Enlightenment has long been in retrenchment. This has little to do with foreigners. Universities are run like businesses, so they'll maximuse their own profit. Human learning is a fig leaf for tax-free status and the acquisition of capital. So too can they utilise SJW bullshit while pursuing rabidly capitalist economics.

You want universities to benefit the state? Nationalise them.