Post: #1

Inspired by an ROK post, I started reading Sperm wars. Pretty good stuff, overall takeaway was that my outlook on sex changed completely, despite having taken the Red Pill. Also inspired to start gaming girls in LTRs, lets see how that goes. I've yet to finish it though, & I will post my final takeaways once I'm done.

Has anyone else read it? If so, what are your thoughts?

Post: #2

I read most of it. I think the author takes a lot of liberties with evolutionary science and jumps to many conclusions without any evidence. That being said, a lot of it does make sense and overall is a very interesting and entertaining read.

I'd read it at work and the story parts would give me massive erections that I would have to hide. With a book titled Sperm Wars.

Post: #3

(12-14-2013 08:03 PM)Checkmat Wrote:  I read most of it. I think the author takes a lot of liberties with evolutionary science and jumps to many conclusions without any evidence. That being said, a lot of it does make sense and overall is a very interesting and entertaining read.

I'd read it at work and the story parts would give me massive erections that I would have to hide. With a book titled Sperm Wars.

I thought the same, but it does conform to my (limited) experience. But thanks, now I know I'm not the only one who noticed that.

I was reading it in my school's library and kept getting hard-ons. Its 50% erotica, 50% theory.

I think the points about genetic lineage are interesting though. Explains why men seek to reproduce with as many attractive women to ensure their kids are good-looking enough to give them grandkids and how women latch onto richer and more successful men to ensure that their kids are taken care of.

Post: #4

I really tried to give it a honest try but It just got too far out of it for me to take its content seriously.

A lot of the evolutionary theory stuff makes sense, but its nothing groundbreaking that hasn't been discussed before. The mult-headed attacker sperm, the blocker sperm, that other craziness he goes into makes it sound like a reproductive version of Lord of the Rings or some shit.

Post: #5

This book was the real start to my "Red Pill" thinking, even though I didn't realize it at the time, and kept trying to get away from it (which always led to failure). I read it Early in my second year of University. It can get kind of repetitive, but the stuff about foreigner genes, rough play, why bisexuality is an advantage, "topping off', affairs stuff, is incredible.

Post: #6

Just think about it for a second though,

Most early human groups were largely matriarchal because no one could figure out paternity. Who the hell knows where jealousy came from, but it certainly seems like a trait that can not only become desensitized but completely ignored overall (my own personal experience).

Group sex is fun, there's probably another reason why I get super hard when I bang a known slut. It's that subconscious drive to "clear the sperm".

I had a feminist professor once ask why we can't go back to a matriarchal society? She was extolling the benefits of it and my BS alarm went off. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of mental energy on bunking it.

I'll write a RoK article about it.

Post: #7

I haven't read the book

But I' ve noticed that when I bang women I know have boyfriends or husbands that my dick gets super hard and that many times my loads are bigger and I shoot them farther

Does the book address anything like that?

Post: #8

One thing the book mentions is that sperm has evolved to kill the sperm of other men.

So - a chick is actually more likely to get pregnant off a man she is fucking on the side, versus her regular partner.

That is the gist of it and was one of the more interesting things in the book. I can't remember the exact biological details - but it is something along the lines of what I said.

Check this out from wikipedia:

Quote:A major focus of the book is sperm heteromorphism in which not only are a variety of morphological types of sperm apparent in every normal human ejaculate but also at any one time fewer than 1% seem capable of responding to and fertilizing an egg. A similarly low proportion of fertile sperm is found in the ejaculates of mice.

Baker calls these fertile sperm "egg-getters", and claims that the rest of the sperm in the ejaculate are infertile "kamikaze sperm" or "blockers", whose primary purpose is to prevent other men's sperm from getting to the egg.

He cites data suggesting that in Britain at least 4% of children (but perhaps as many as 6–12%) are conceived via sperm competition, and claims that this lower figure is consistent with the earlier finding that 10% of children have a biological father who is other than their supposed father.

Baker describes in detail how "killer sperm" actively seek out rival sperm and kill them with poison from acrosomes to prevent them from getting to the egg. This literal sperm warfare was not observed in a subsequent experiment, but Baker criticizes the protocol in this latter experiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_Wars

Post: #9

^ Yeah, the killer sperm thing has been disproved countless times along with some of his other theories. The rest of his claims haven't been repeatable with testing.

Post: #10

(12-16-2013 03:41 PM)frenchie Wrote:  Just think about it for a second though,

Most early human groups were largely matriarchal because no one could figure out paternity. Who the hell knows where jealousy came from, but it certainly seems like a trait that can not only become desensitized but completely ignored overall (my own personal experience).

I had a feminist professor once ask why we can't go back to a matriarchal society? She was extolling the benefits of it and my BS alarm went off. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of mental energy on bunking it.

I'll write a RoK article about it.

The books...
*Sanctifying Misandry: Goddess Ideology and the Fall of Man by Katherine K. Young & Paul Nathanson and...
*The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory: Why an Invented Past Will Not Give Women a Future by Cynthia Eller...

...both put a SERIOUS dents in the whole matriarchal civilizations concept.

Post: #11

I finally finished the book last week. General takeaways:
1. Women want offspring with maximum reproductive success. This is why women pursue men who are already popular with other women - in the hopes of sons who will fuck as many women as possible.
2. A woman will avoid men who are violent to loved ones. This is because they won't want their offspring physically hurt. Could explain why most women are turned off by red-pill writings - because the feminists and society have equated them to domestic violence.
3. Women will try to coddle up to providers (beta bucks) to ensure their offspring get the optimal amount of resources while fucking the best men (alpha fucks) to have reproductively successful children.
4. If you're a guy, life's all about shooting your load.

Most of this is of course subconscious. Based on my experience, it makes logic of a lot of game phenomena.

However, I think the warrior sperm theory is kooky. The scientific backing for his sperm theories is at worst absent and at best somewhat vague. I'd like to look into this theory and the research behind it.

Post: #12

@zpatplayer - I just want to address the fourth point you made above - "If you're a guy, life's all about shooting your load."

I am not sure if you are joking when you say that. But even if you are - it is worth touching on since alot of people read books about evolution, and then suddenly decide that evolution's goals are the same goals that they should be pursuing as well.

It goes without saying, but I will anyway! Too many people confuse what is good for evolution with what is good for themselves. When any sensible person should take an interest in evolution - yet at the same time not give two shits what is in the best 'interests' of evolution.

Richard Dawkins makes this point in 'The Selfish Gene'. If we were truly bothered about evolution's goals - then each of us would be at the fertility clinic each day begging them to let us donate as much sperm as possilbe. Since that would be the most efficient way for us to spread our genes.

I am sure I am reading too much into what you said. But it is a point which needs stressing. The goals of evolution and the goals for your life are two entirely separate things. If they happen to overlap - that is fine. But to make evolution the lodestar for your own life is just fucked up logic. And I somtimes worry that the overlap between The Red Pill and evolution leads some people into thinking that way.

Post: #13

(01-12-2014 03:29 AM)cardguy Wrote:  @zpatplayer - I just want to address the fourth point you made above - "If you're a guy, life's all about shooting your load."

I am not sure if you are joking when you say that. But even if you are - it is worth touching on since alot of people read books about evolution, and then suddenly decide that evolution's goals are the same goals that they should be pursuing as well.

It goes without saying, but I will anyway! Too many people confuse what is good for evolution with what is good for themselves. When any sensible person should take an interest in evolution - yet at the same time not give two shits what is in the best 'interests' of evolution.

Richard Dawkins makes this point in 'The Selfish Gene'. If we were truly bothered about evolution's goals - then each of us would be at the fertility clinic each day begging them to let us donate as much sperm as possilbe. Since that would be the most efficient way for us to spread our genes.

I am sure I am reading too much into what you said. But it is a point which needs stressing. The goals of evolution and the goals for your life are two entirely separate things. If they happen to overlap - that is fine. But to make evolution the lodestar for your own life is just fucked up logic. And I somtimes worry that the overlap between The Red Pill and evolution leads some people into thinking that way.

Thank you for your thoughts cardguy. I have not read the Selfish Gene so I can't give a proper counterargument to Dawkins' claim. However, its important to note that the book explains why the male body craves sexual pleasure for 2 reasons:

1. It is evolutionarily advantageous to masturbate 3 days before you have sex. This is because sperm that is more than 3 days old is not as fit for impregnating a woman as younger sperm. However, 3 days is the optimal amount of time to create as much sperm as possible.

2. Male bodies are hardwired (i.e. evolved) to crave as much sex as possible in order to reproduce. This is because sperm banks and artificial insemination have only been around for a few years. So, artificial insemination is not your body's goal.

The book doesn't address this point per se but the point being made here is that the book writes about the body's goal (think reptilian brain) and not a conscious goal.

I advocate living your life based on natural needs, not to satisfy evolution and I believe that the book teaches that. To satisfy evolution, I would be rawdogging every ovulating girl there is. Instead, I satisfy my evolutionary desires, i.e. desires my body has been evolved to have, by learning game and using a condom (or making sure the girl is on the pill).

True, there are a few crazies out there who want their lives to be dictated by evolution but by not giving into desires your body is hardwired to have, you will end up leading a frustrated and sad existence.

Thank you for your excellent point though, I agree that nature does not always have your best interests in mind.

Post: #14

Sorry for getting your name wrong before. Clumsy fingers!

As always - I really enjoy your thoughtful posts.

Post: #15

I've read the book (years ago) and thought the intro stories to each chapter were pretty cool. It's a worthwhile look at sexuality that, more or less, seems to align with game theory and sexuality (esp female) in general. I'd also say it's a brave attempt to take a cold Darwinist take on sex because, as a writer, he knew he'd get criticized for it. People don't like to be explained as 'animals' on any matter.

The science, alas, is just not very good. No links, validation, or empirical data. Also, I did some digging after he made the "10% cuckold kids" claim. It's pure nonsense. DNA evidence shows these levels to be 1-2% in Western populations.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo...nity-rates

That's 1 in 50 of all babies, which is not really that much. More likely is that, besides female tendency towards hypergamy, males have even better developed sensors of possible infidelity. Those males who didn't, have all died out, at least if you reason according to evolutionary theory. Baker also argues women (unconsciously) want to get pregnant from the men they cheat with, but this doesn't show either. With 1/50, these cheating women must either all be using birth control or condoms while cheating or cheat when they're not fertile -- which doesn't make sense.

Actually, what's far more likely is that Baker has his own agenda. At the time of reading I read he was a cuckold fetishist, but I can't find the link anymore. It could very well have been a smear, but the tone of the book (& lack of data) did give me the feeling there was, shall we say, a certain 'passion' overriding what theory would allow to deduce.

Post: #16

I heard once that the reason babies look so similar is so that it is harder for cuckolded men to realise the baby is not theirs.

Post: #17

(01-17-2014 01:10 PM)cardguy Wrote:  I heard once that the reason babies look so similar is so that it is harded for cuckolded men to realise the baby is not theirs.

Haha probably true, another thing I read that women do is after the baby is born to say to the "father" of the child oh look he/she has your eyes/nose/forehead etc to try and reassure or trick them that the child id theirs. Which is kind of ridiculous as you cant really tell which features of each parent the child has taken after at that age.

Post: #18

Bunk, knowing what I know of Ancient civilizations, mythology, and Ancient ethos the psychological component of the sperm wars is ridiculous.

To address one point, the inflaming of passion when screwing another guy's girl is from and under current of rage, a realization that this not truly yours. Perhaps too a bit of contempt, she is a liar and dishonest.

Women have always been a point of contention in any civilized honor bearing society, to use a well known and easily referenced exampke The Iliad. The opening is drenched in rage and anger. Achilles is pissed because the Wanax, Agememnon has taken his war won female booty, the god Apollo is pissed because Agememnon took a temple maiden of his, and the Greeks are besieging the Trojans because Paris stole someone's wife. This is a theme that plays out in most Indo-European heroic epics: a women strays or causes trouble, and the hero must set it right.

Healthy men have a certain ammount of possessiveness. Now fit that into the framework of some skag who offers her pussy while with someone else.

Hate sex is always wild fun, kind of like break up sex.

Post: #19

(01-20-2014 03:14 AM)Draugr Wrote:  Bunk, knowing what I know of Ancient civilizations, mythology, and Ancient ethos the psychological component of the sperm wars is ridiculous.

To address one point, the inflaming of passion when screwing another guy's girl is from and under current of rage, a realization that this not truly yours. Perhaps too a bit of contempt, she is a liar and dishonest.

Women have always been a point of contention in any civilized honor bearing society, to use a well known and easily referenced exampke The Iliad. The opening is drenched in rage and anger. Achilles is pissed because the Wanax, Agememnon has taken his war won female booty, the god Apollo is pissed because Agememnon took a temple maiden of his, and the Greeks are besieging the Trojans because Paris stole someone's wife. This is a theme that plays out in most Indo-European heroic epics: a women strays or causes trouble, and the hero must set it right.

Healthy men have a certain ammount of possessiveness. Now fit that into the framework of some skag who offers her pussy while with someone else.

Hate sex is always wild fun, kind of like break up sex.

Excellent counterargument to one of the main points made in the book. Also yes, perhaps the author misinterpreted the cause of 'getting harder for another man's wife'. In fact, this worry caused the ancient Hebrews to incorporate non-adultery into 3 of the 10 commandments (no adultery, non-coveting of another man's wife, non-coveting of another man's female slave).

I can't say that I disagree but I will play the devil's advocate here.

Don't you think that there is a biological reason men get harder for sluts and cheating girlfriends? Don't you think its not merely the excitement but rather a biological function to have a child with a fertile woman who is super-horny enough to forgo her honor and fuck as many men as possible (think "I'm definitely hitting it")?

The concept of honor existed even in paleolithic times (probably more so than today where men don't prevent their daughters from slutting it out). This means that we have most likely evolved to be honorable. Perhaps it is because our societal evolution caused honor to become an integral part of our lives, causing us to evolve to make it a part of our existence (even ~50,000-100,000 years of evolution can make a difference in the way our bodies view things).

Since honor has been a part of human existence for ages, isn't it possible that our bodies have also constructed complex mechanisms to ensure maximal procreation while taking into account honor?

Also, good knowledge of Ancient Greece. Th only other person I have heard using the term wanax is my archaeology professor. +1

Post: #20

You bring up some good points xpat as an advocatus diaboli. However we have to factor in the social conditioning of the last century, hell even factor pop music into the equation.

The idea of sperm wars is kind of ridiculous, humans could be considered gracile hunters and killers, hence are differing physiology from other primates: we are hairless and sweat all over to engage in persistance hunts (which could explain the joy in blood we experience), I could even supposed we have thinner jaws for rending meat. Humans don't have sperm wars, we have real wars. We kill and we are good at it.

As far as modern Western man getting a rage on for staying pussy, it could be the thrill of bagging prey, sex and aggression seem to be connected, with both males and females. Modern man may conflate the aggression he feels for a cheating women as burning desire not to be found in a loving relationship, and vise versa for the female. Hubby gets the Romantic emotional crap, bad boy lover gets pussy juice coating his balls. Needless to say, pre-Enlightement Romance didn't exist. Men used to claim what was theirs, to love, to cherish, to hold. Then comes Romance, fucks it, instead of society contract between men and women, we have this effeminate love crap.

From my own life I have experienced the raging boner phenomenon, with women I have been dating. Like one, a fianncee, had to amp up the emotional garbage. It got to the point of hard fucking, anal, and whiskey dicking (basically I can't come when I drink like my Irish forefathers, so I banged her until she ran dry.) Another girl was working up to breaking up with me, the night before she did we did some wild screwing, she pounded the walls, screamed some vulgar crap, and goozed all over her sheets. Needless to say I was an iron rod. Modern relationships wreck the male ethos. A beat down beta who is forced into niceguydom to maintain his status as an SO, loses his aggressive edge, and the females recipricate.

But back to the main topic a good book to read on violence and sexual contention is Homo Necans, the Anthropology of Ancient Greek Myth and Sacrificial Ritual. It is a heavy academic book, but one chapter develves into pre-nuptual rituals that are ment to dissipate tensions in the community.

One example I can give of the top of my head is the custom of carrying the bride over the threshold. It comes from an Ancient Roman custom ment to introduce the new wife to her new household, the fear was that the household spirits/penates would attack the new bride who was not of their blood. Take from that what you will.

Post: #21

(01-20-2014 11:24 PM)Draugr Wrote:  You bring up some good points xpat as an advocatus diaboli. However we have to factor in the social conditioning of the last century, hell even factor pop music into the equation.

The idea of sperm wars is kind of ridiculous, humans could be considered gracile hunters and killers, hence are differing physiology from other primates: we are hairless and sweat all over to engage in persistance hunts (which could explain the joy in blood we experience), I could even supposed we have thinner jaws for rending meat. Humans don't have sperm wars, we have real wars. We kill and we are good at it.

As far as modern Western man getting a rage on for staying pussy, it could be the thrill of bagging prey, sex and aggression seem to be connected, with both males and females. Modern man may conflate the aggression he feels for a cheating women as burning desire not to be found in a loving relationship, and vise versa for the female. Hubby gets the Romantic emotional crap, bad boy lover gets pussy juice coating his balls. Needless to say, pre-Enlightement Romance didn't exist. Men used to claim what was theirs, to love, to cherish, to hold. Then comes Romance, fucks it, instead of society contract between men and women, we have this effeminate love crap.

From my own life I have experienced the raging boner phenomenon, with women I have been dating. Like one, a fianncee, had to amp up the emotional garbage. It got to the point of hard fucking, anal, and whiskey dicking (basically I can't come when I drink like my Irish forefathers, so I banged her until she ran dry.) Another girl was working up to breaking up with me, the night before she did we did some wild screwing, she pounded the walls, screamed some vulgar crap, and goozed all over her sheets. Needless to say I was an iron rod. Modern relationships wreck the male ethos. A beat down beta who is forced into niceguydom to maintain his status as an SO, loses his aggressive edge, and the females recipricate.

But back to the main topic a good book to read on violence and sexual contention is Homo Necans, the Anthropology of Ancient Greek Myth and Sacrificial Ritual. It is a heavy academic book, but one chapter develves into pre-nuptual rituals that are ment to dissipate tensions in the community.

One example I can give of the top of my head is the custom of carrying the bride over the threshold. It comes from an Ancient Roman custom ment to introduce the new wife to her new household, the fear was that the household spirits/penates would attack the new bride who was not of their blood. Take from that what you will.

Excellent points made Draugr. I have seen many counterarguments to the points listed in Sperm Wars but your's seem to be the most effective. I agree completely with your points on social conditioning with regard to aggression.

Good takedown of most of the book's main points. However, I still believe that a few, including the 3 day jerk-off rule, are still valid.

I would like to read Homo Necans and post a book review now that you've mentioned it.

Post: #22

A lot of it just life and relationship experience, and remembering that old maxim of Terrence, "I am human so nothing human is alien to me."

Homo Necans, the Anthropolgy of Ancient Greek Sacrificial Ritual and Myth by Walter Burkert, be warned is a bit of grind. An academic work that is heavy with footnotes. But well worth it as it analyzes Greek religion sysyematically while not doing what most modern anthros do: denigrate the culture being studied.

But for all I know you could have a PhD.

I just thought of this, a good book that examines the dynamics of infidelity is Stephen King's Cujo.

Post: #23

I'm a few chapters into the book. It's very interesting and it really makes you think. I believe that it's based on real science, because the author mentions that the book is a layman's version of the full research which is in another book.

But the main question that keeps popping into my mind as I read it is :

If women are so ruled by their biology (even more so considering that the sperm wars happen inside of her and therefore her biology controls her more than men's biology controls men), then at what point can women be held accountable for their actions?

I have a huge hatred for the idea of letting women get away with doing bad stuff, but, if they really are ruled that much by their biology, I now find myself torn between understanding (and even sympathizing - I'd hate to have something inside me causing me to be so irrational and dishonest) and wanting bad women to be held responsible for what they do.

A good way to understand women is to recognize that they are literally (sophisticated) children. But now it seems that they are possessed too. Add to that the fact that people generally let their actions slide, and what have you got? An entitled, possessed, childish nightmare.

Anyway here's a link to the book on slideshare :

https://www.slideshare.net/homebwoi/sper...obin-baker

If you join you can download the pdf. I couldn't find an audio version of it but if you download Natural Reader it will read it. It's not perfect but it's quite good.

Post: #24

(06-10-2017 07:34 PM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  I'm a few chapters into the book. It's very interesting and it really makes you think. I believe that it's based on real science, because the author mentions that the book is a layman's version of the full research which is in another book.

But the main question that keeps popping into my mind as I read it is :

If women are so ruled by their biology (even more so considering that the sperm wars happen inside of her and therefore her biology controls her more than men's biology controls men), then at what point can women be held accountable for their actions?

I have a huge hatred for the idea of letting women get away with doing bad stuff, but, if they really are ruled that much by their biology, I now find myself torn between understanding (and even sympathizing - I'd hate to have something inside me causing me to be so irrational and dishonest) and wanting bad women to be held responsible for what they do.

A good way to understand women is to recognize that they are literally (sophisticated) children. But now it seems that they are possessed too. Add to that the fact that people generally let their actions slide, and what have you got? An entitled, possessed, childish nightmare.

Anyway here's a link to the book on slideshare :

https://www.slideshare.net/homebwoi/sper...obin-baker

If you join you can download the pdf. I couldn't find an audio version of it but if you download Natural Reader it will read it. It's not perfect but it's quite good.

The book and concept have been discredited. But the general honest answer to all of this is to treat women like children. IE no voting.

Post: #25

^ The number of men (admittedly somewhat similar in thought to us) that I've mentioned the voting thing to is funny, near unanimous agreement no objection. For such a counter-cultural topic, it's hysterical how obvious it is to anyone with any understanding of biology and what's going on in terms of division within the political schema of the West.