Post: #426

As much as people here are (justifiably) angry about Islam in general, world war and genocide is not necessary to deal with the problem. We have now experienced so many decades of sabotage by our cuck politicians that perfectly moderate and effective measures that we could undertake no longer even exist in our minds:

- ending all welfare for all immigrants
- mandatory language, assimilation and attainment checks for legal immigrants
- committing a felony = deportation + lifetime ban
- ending all favoritism of Islam and revoking all special exemptions
- restoring borders with physical barriers and armed guards authorized to shoot
- any attempt to enter or stay in the country illegally = deportation + lifetime ban
- aiding and abetting illegal immigration = life imprisonment
- organizing, inciting or carrying out terrorism = death sentence
- not reporting terrorists = life imprisonment
- citizenship revocable for extreme offenses

Implement these common-sense measures (that we've been using as little as 50 years ago) and our problem will be solved within one generation.

If you want more proof of how easy this issue actually would be to solve, just consider how much effort the elites have put into causing problems during the last few decades. It took them trillions in money, immense manpower, staggering corruption, overwhelming worldwide propaganda and multiple major wars, yet we're still at a point where nothing is irreversible yet and where all where of their machinations could be reversed within several years - if only some willpower were regained by our lethargic societies.

Post: #427

(06-07-2017 03:22 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  https://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-m...channel-4/

-19% of British Muslims support the objective of creating an Islamic State
-3% of British Muslims support the way the Islamic State is going about establishing a caliphate
-18% of Muslims sympathize with those who engage in violence against those who mock the prophet
-21% of Muslims do not condemn stoning for adultery.
-15% of British muslims do not condemn suicide bombing
-17% of British Muslims do not condemn terrorism as a form of political protest
-25% of Muslims do not condemn those who organize radical groups but do not themselves take part in terrorist activity
-21% of Muslims do not condemn those who threaten terrorism as part of a political protest

Your third link (from "Mirror") is complete conjecture, and is contradicted by the data in your second.

These numbers are incredible and easily explain why Islam should be banned from any polite society. With numbers like these you are guarented war, 100% of the time. Simply a matter of time.

That you quote these numbers, Excelsior, and see no problem, reveals extreme cognitive dissonance on your part.

Haven't you argued extensively against the evils of racism and Black slavery? And yet here you are, defending the biggest slavers in history (who the hell do you think sold the Blacks to Europe... Europe was just getting into the slave game Muslims had on lockdown for nearly 800 years) with some ridiculous "not all Muslims are like that?"

You'll defend affirmative action against Whites, yet support the immigration of the biggest slavers of Blacks in all of history into the your country on the taxpayer's dime.

Now do you understand why I was against the removal of the confederate statue? Do you see how deadly historical ignorance can be?

Although the promotion of that Muslim nutjob preacher is definitely suspicious, nothing changes the basic facts of the situation and why Islam is totally incompatible with a free, healthy society. Many Muslims could be saved through apostasy, but not with our pussyfooted approach we have right now.

Post: #428

(06-07-2017 03:22 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  https://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-m...channel-4/

-19% of British Muslims support the objective of creating an Islamic State
-3% of British Muslims support the way the Islamic State is going about establishing a caliphate
-18% of Muslims sympathize with those who engage in violence against those who mock the prophet
-21% of Muslims do not condemn stoning for adultery.
-15% of British muslims do not condemn suicide bombing
-17% of British Muslims do not condemn terrorism as a form of political protest

You... you honestly don't see any problem with this???

Post: #429

(06-08-2017 04:38 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

(06-07-2017 03:22 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  https://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-m...channel-4/

-19% of British Muslims support the objective of creating an Islamic State
-3% of British Muslims support the way the Islamic State is going about establishing a caliphate
-18% of Muslims sympathize with those who engage in violence against those who mock the prophet
-21% of Muslims do not condemn stoning for adultery.
-15% of British muslims do not condemn suicide bombing
-17% of British Muslims do not condemn terrorism as a form of political protest

You... you honestly don't see any problem with this???

I think it also helps to put this in absolute terms, too. As at 2016 there were roughly 3.5 million Muslims in England.

That means around 105,000 Muslims support the way Islamic State is going about creating a caliphate.

For comparison, According to Leftiepedia, the total military force comprising ISIS is estimated at 200,000 at maximum. Look at what a band of heavily outnumbered zealots have been able to do, albeit with heavy Western support -- not that a Muslim civil war would not have heavy support from some traitorous Westerners and likely from Arab nations, just as the Sauds et al. back ISIS.

Mind you, that 100,000 figure is just counting the 3% who approve of ISIS. When you go to the 19, say 20% of British Muslims that support the creation of an Islamic State, the number is 700,000. Say 600,000 Muslims who do not condemn suicide bombing or terrorism. That's between 600,000 and 1.3 million Muslims who are by definition suspected of harbouring terrorists (depending on how far the overlap goes). 600,000 people is an awful large number to hide amongst.

Sure, we say, it's a tiny minority compared to the full population of England. But the full population of England is not mobilised against the threat in its own ranks, and will never be; if you count sympathisers and collaborators in non-Muslim ranks the number gets much, much higher. Never mind that the Muslim population has far, far more young men of fighting age than other cultures proportionally do, as a result of asstastic immigration policies and a retarded foreign religion. We also know from World War 2 that a lot of morons try to sit the fight out, neither collaborating nor resisting.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #430

(06-07-2017 06:45 PM)Valentine Wrote:  I don't see your point here in regards to saying there is a small percentage which do not condone terrorism. Of course there will be a few exceptions to that in a population of 1.8 billion, but they don't prove the rule so I don't understand how that supports your argument that Islam shouldn't be banned.

With regard to the bolded, I think you may have misread me.

The thread subject is a terror attack conducted by muslims in Great Britain.

British muslims were implicated in the attack.

Many responded to that fact in this thread with negative implications broadly applied to the British muslim community (re: that they all need to be deported, that they are all tangentially responsible, that they broadly condone this, etc, etc).

You presented data on British muslims.

I have responded to all of this by showing that a) the men implicated in this attack represent a view promoted by a man whose platform has been unjustifiably enlarged by the British media and b) data shows that the vast majority of British muslims do not support the ideology you and others here claim they support.

Let me quote the data again, just for clarity's sake:

Quote:https://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-m...channel-4/

-19% of British Muslims support the objective of creating an Islamic State
-3% of British Muslims support the way the Islamic State is going about establishing a caliphate
-18% of Muslims sympathize with those who engage in violence against those who mock the prophet
-21% of Muslims do not condemn stoning for adultery.
-15% of British muslims do not condemn suicide bombing
-17% of British Muslims do not condemn terrorism as a form of political protest
-25% of Muslims do not condemn those who organize radical groups but do not themselves take part in terrorist activity
-21% of Muslims do not condemn those who threaten terrorism as part of a political protest

I did not say that "there is a small percentage which do not condone terrorism". I very clearly said (and the data makes this clear) that "17% of British Muslims do not condemn terrorism as a form of political protest", "21% of Muslims do not condemn those who threaten terrorism as part of a political protest", and "25% of Muslims do not condemn those who organize radical groups but do not themselves take part in terrorist activity".

"Do not condemn" means either strongly support or somewhat support, according to the methodology in the survey. I also included in those figures those who said they "didn't know".

What this means is that "83% of British Muslims do not condone terrorism as a form of political protest", "79% of Muslims do not condone those who threaten terrorism as part of a political protest", and "75% of Muslims do not condone those who organize radical groups but do not themselves take part in terrorist activity".

The data (which I pulled from a source you presented) shows very clearly that the number of muslims who su

When your argument is that Islam should be banned from the UK on the basis of widespread support among British muslims for terrorism and the data (which you presented) actually shows that the vast majority (83% if we're talking about views on terrorism as political protest) do not support terrorism, then you and your argument have a pretty serious problem.

You're right to note that exceptions do not prove the rule. Your problem is that the folks you are claiming to be the rule (the ones who think acts of terrorism are justified) are actually the exceptions, not the rule.

Quote:These people may be good people in spite of being Muslim, and if Islam were banned and they were given the opportunity to leave the religion without being killed for it I'm sure many would seize the opportunity.

But even if they do not condone terrorism, as there is a great number of extremist Islamic beliefs (such as all non-Muslims must be killed or converted, thieves must be dismembered, apostates must be killed, etc) it is very likely that they instead have another backwards extreme belief.

I think that being a muslim is absolutely no bar to the attainment of status as a decent human being.

The rest of this statement is just conjecture. The data (the link to which, again, you presented) lays out a pretty clear picture with regard to British muslims: extremists are exceptional among them.

Quote:And just read what you yourself have quoted:

Quote:25% of Muslims do not condemn those who organize radical groups but do not themselves take part in terrorist activity.

The mind has a great way of rationalising any behaviour.

"So what if the terrorist came back to their neighbourhood after shooting innocents? It doesn't make me a terrorist if I don't tell on them."

"So what if I only shop at Muslim stores where I know the owners are linked to radical groups? It doesn't make me a terrorist just buying from them."

The moderate Muslim may not directly do the beheading but they support it all the same.

Pure conjecture. You are merely imputing ideas of what you suspect the thought process of the average muslim is absent any data substantiating the notion that said process is legitimate.

The vast majority of muslims in the UK do not support terrorists. They do not welcome men like Choudhury, who are presumed to speak for them by non-muslims and the British media. They do not support beheadings - you are insisting that they do, but your own data very clearly indicates that they do not (less than 20% of them support the creation of an Islamic State to begin with and just 3% support the violent methods, including beheadings, being used to those ends).
These are the facts as they stand, like them or not.

Quote:And just look at those percentages. 25%? There's 1.8 billion Muslims in the world, if it were the same scores across the world then you'd have at least 450 million Muslims who would indirectly support the truer Muslims amongst them. And the percentages are certainly higher than that since in Britain they're far less radical than in Afghanistan.

No source for the bolded. Until you present one, this is conjecture.

In either case, even if your argument held (and it doesn't absent data), the justification for writing off 1.4 Billion people who very clearly do not support the behavior we're discussing is rather weak.

Also, there's nothing "truer" about muslims who support terrorism.

Quote:As humorous as your naivety towards the vast support for terrorism within the cult is, I still fail to see the point of your arguments. We know globalists are throwing oil on the fire, it doesn't make it any less evil a cult. We know it's not every single last Muslim, it doesn't make it any less violent an ideology.

There is no naivete. This is me reading the data (which you gave me) and coming to factual conclusions while you rely on conjecture and then endeavour to take an intellectual and moral high ground you very clearly do not have here.

Again: You are here supporting negative characterizations of Islam (ex: "evil cult") with claims of terrorism and widespread support for terrorism being rife among its subjects (particularly those residing in the UK, given the context of this thread). When the data that you presented shows quite clearly that the violent behavior you are using as a foundation for your claims about Islam is opposed by the vast majority of the same British muslims you're calling evil cultists (because you claimed they backed terrorism), you have a problem.

That is the point of my argument.

Quote:

Quote:My solution does differ substantially from that of Macron, Merkel, and May, but that difference will mean nothing to someone coming from your perspective (where anything less than "ban all muslims" is seen as SJW-ism).

If not banning Islam before we all become culturally enriched, what is your proposed solution then?

I'm glad you asked. It's quite simple, really.

Step 1. Quit fucking around with the Middle East. Quit bombing, meddling, and otherwise endeavouring to destabilize the region. Support relatively secular strongmen like Hussein, Gaddafi, and Assad who, while not without faults, know how to run a country with some efficiency and aren't prone to extremism.

This is possibly the most important of the points I will present here. What gets lost in all of these discussions about the problems surrounding refugees and migration is the simple fact that we would not have a migrant crisis in the first place were it not for western fuckery in the middle east.
Syrian refugees are flooding out of the country not simply because they were born with a mission to invade Europe, but because their country was pretty much blown to bits. Why? Because westerners want to fuck with Assad.
Iraq is a destabilized incubator for extremism. Why? Because we wanted to fuck with Hussein.
Libya is now an open gateway for extremists and millions of refugees who, thanks to their newfound ability to freely transit the now failed state, can more easily flood Europe and enhance the refugee crisis. Why? Because we wanted to fuck with Gaddafi.

This is the root of the problem - we can kill the whole refugee crisis at its core if efforts are made to a) stabilize the middle east and b) quite destabilizing the middle east.

Don't want to create a refugee crisis? Don't invent BS reasons to meddle and blow up Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, Iraq, etc.
This not only stems the tide of refugees (something it seems just about everyone on this forum would be ecstatic about), it also helps to curb extremism by giving folks less reason to rationally hate the west.





When you know that westerners are literally inventing reasons to fuck with your country, actively blowing your country and your people to smithereens on dubious pretenses, and then laughing about it, you might get upset. If you watched your family and friends get ripped apart, maimed, displaced, or otherwise harmed by the conseuqences of the actions of westerners operating on dubious pretenses, and you then watched said westerners laugh gleefully at what they had done, I am willing to bet you would be a little upset too.

Folks here go on and on about how they want to protect their culture, their families, their children's future and their nation's pride, among other things. Other folks, believe it or not, feel the same way. And when they see another power literally going out of its way to destroy all of that and then laughing about it, you can take a wild guess as to how they feel about it.

The kind of conduct embodied by that woman in the video above (in both her gleeful pleasure at the needless suffering she created and in the actions she took to unjustifiably create it) is epic recruiting material for ISIS and other extremist groups. We need to kill that, and we start by changing the way the west conducts business in the middle east/North Africa. There's step 1.

Step 2. Find, prosecute, and eliminate extremists in the west. As I noted earlier in this thread, these people are NOT hiding. The perpetrator of this London Bridge attack had been flagged before, and he even appeared in a documentary about extremism quite recently. British authorities had ample warning about him, but they have been too complacent and lackadaisical.
In the meantime, British (and American) media are busy elevating a handful of extremists who Muslims themselves would never give a platform too and who are actually shunned by the mainstream muslim community.

The elites are aiding extremism. I noted above how their conduct of foreign affairs helps to fuel extremism and migrant crises, but they do the same thing when they unjusitifiably promote figures like Choudhary who do NOT deserve such a platform and then fail to act on credible extremist threats.

The solution to this is simple: quit promoting extremists. Stop giving Choudhary and his ilk a platform on western news networks and in other media. Shun them, shame them, and censor them. There is a whole muslim community that already does this to people who think that way because they oppose those views - enlist their help. They are willing.
Next, start fighting back. Credible threats reported on domestic extremists must be acted upon. Deportations of those who engage in said activity must be expedited. These people are not hiding - the British authorities know where and who they are. They don't even need to engage in profiling or other out-of-the-way measures, the people are so obvious. You know where they are: Go get them, prosecute them, and kick them out of the country. Stop making excuses, stop coddling, stop going on and on about racism this and that, and just do it.

There's step 2.

Follow those two steps to the key, and you'll solve the problem. No "banning" necessary.

Post: #431

(06-07-2017 07:36 PM)Travesty Wrote:  Excelsior you are acting like guilt by association doesn't exist.

It always will, even if imperfect. Why? It is a simple straightforward solution because though it is a blunt instrument it works.

Profiling works.

Not letting people you don't want in your house works.

First, let me say that if guilt by association is going to be taken as an operative principle here, there are a lot of folks within this part of the internet who will have quite a bit to answer for. Those in glass houses should not be throwing stones.

Second, I'm not a big fan of profiling. It's easily and readily promoted by folks who tend not to bare the brunt of its negative impact, but as someone within the class of people who would bare said impact, I'm not keen on it.

Third, not letting folks you don't want in your house is more effective when you aren't actively destroying those folks' houses. That's step 1, and there's no "solution" without dealing with it.

Quote:Bottom line - Muslims at large should suffer brutal social consequences as the attacks pile up. It is insanity not to. They should be shunned until they clean up their own house.

How can they do that? We all know they can't. They would have to edit the scriptures while also banning & denouncing any of the old scripture that promotes Jihad or Sharia. When will that happen?

Let's keep going down this path as weapons like a renting a truck are a joke compared to what you could get your hands on in the future.

First, quit blowing up their house. They can't clean it if that doesn't stop.

Second, I am never going to back the assertion that all muslims shoud suffer for the actions of a vast minority. That's neither fair nor logical.

Third, you do not need to re-write the scriptures to fight extremism. All you need to do is get the west to quit propping it up with absurdly regressive foreign policy and half-assed, lackadaisical policing at home (in addition to the false promotion of extremists in home media). I laid out a road map for doing all of that above.

Quote:You are like all the Euros. It won't be enough until there is something that outdoes Sept. 11. 10,000+ deaths in one event then your opinion will change.

Your views are faulty. I believe you are wrong. I base that belief on my observation and analysis of the facts at hand. That will not be changing.

(06-07-2017 08:36 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  Excelsior, all the stats about who and what the "majority" of Muslims supposedly do and do not support are beside the point. The problem is that their entire culture and society is suffering from a sickness, and has for a long time already -- it has merely gotten more acute recently as the pace of change in the world has accelerated.

Look at how backward, violent, and repressive all these Middle Eastern countries are, to various degrees, despite their vast collective oil wealth. Look at how relatively little generations of Muslim immigrants in Europe have assimilated, compared to immigrants of almost any other extraction. Look at the state of so many of these neighborhoods in Europe, the French, Belgian or British banlieues run by thugs and gangs, virtual "no-go" zones for law enforcement. Look at the way these migrants behave, their evident contempt for their hosts and the host culture.

This is the pot calling the kettle black.

First, your entire culture and society is suffering from a sickness and has for a long time already. You know how I know this? Because you're posting on RvF. This is not a forum that would exist if it were not indeed the case that western society and culture were gravely ill. We are all direct products of that illness - you and I wouldn't be talking today if that were not the case. We certainly wouldn't be hosting ourselves on a forum whose central claim to fame is the presence of a massive archive of discussion threads dedicated to helping men like you and me best get out and away from this society/culture.

Second, as I noted above in my response to Valentine, the west is an actual and proximate cause of much of the sickness you are seeing in the middle east. Western foreign policy failures are the only reason we're having conversations about refugees in the first place.
You can blame islam and muslims all you like, but the problem is not going to go away until you acknowledge the role western actions have played in generating and perpetuating said illness, and the inherent faults that seem to galvanize westerners into thinking said actions are worthwhile and justified. It isn't going to matter how loud and how often you scream "THEY GOTTA GO BACK" if you're going to turn around the next day and blow up their country for no good reason and eliminate any of the leaders (the Assads, Husseins, and Gaddafis of the world) who have even a remote chance of creating stability there.

That is the starting point here. Everything else is just meaningless conjecture and stones thrown from a glass house.

(06-07-2017 08:48 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  I'd like to turn this back.

@Excel: What is an acceptable percentage of a demographic that either commits violence in the name of their beliefs or supports the commiting of violence in the name of their beliefs before that demographic must be dealt with as a whole.

Let's say the one percent were the "peaceful muslims" and the 99 percent were jihadis or open supporters of jihadis. I might assume that you would tell the one percent "sorry, but your right to be counted as an individual has become too costly to our society". Yeah? Or would you literally say "we cannot allow a single muslim to suffer from profiling or ill treatment merely because 99 out of 100 are support open jihad"? Surely not, because that would be insane, yeah?

So what percentage of muslims that commit or support jihad is "too much" for a society to continue to protect the ideology as a whole?

How many deaths by jihad per month are "too many"? 10? 100? 1000? A million?

When would you, personally, say "enough is enough"?

Perhaps you could frame your response in the context of what action you might have taken to avert the tragedy of Lebannon, once called "The Paris of the Middle East", circa 1976 while maintaining full Western style liberties for all involved.

No.

Here's what I have to say:

You and several others are here supporting negative characterizations of Islam (ex: it has been referred to in this thread as an "evil cult") with claims of terrorism and widespread support for terrorism being rife among its subjects (particularly those residing in the UK, given the context of this thread).

When the data that is presented shows quite clearly that the violent behavior you are using as a foundation for your claims about Islam is opposed by the vast majority of the same British muslims that you claim to be the problem (because they allegedly loved terrorism or at least somewhat favored it), you have a problem.

When this is accompanied by clear evidence of a media working around the clock to promote individuals and viewpoints that stand clearly in contrast to the majority of muslims (actions taken with clear intent to forment controversy and jack up ratings), you have an even bigger problem.

When this is all coupled with a complete ignorance of the role the west has played in fucking up the muslim world whose fucked-upness you cite as reason to turn against said muslims (a circular argument if I ever saw one), you have the biggest problem.

That is the point of my argument.

I am not going to engage in the pointless exercise of setting some arbitrary standard for you to further miss the point with. This has nothing to do with that. What is at issue here are fundamental mischaracterizations of people that are fostering a climate of fear, anger, and outright hate that have no basis in fact or reason, and are creating "solutions" which are too divorced from reality to have any chance of success of positive impact. I'm not co-signing that.

Post: #432

All I see is just a bunch of words for ....bla bla ... not all Muslims.... bla bla .... Islam is not problematic..... bla bla .... the West created Islamic terror all by itself.

The problem here is that you Excelsior don't fucking see how evil Islam truly is.
Even when we trump out Ex-Muslims, Ex-Salafis, secular Muslims who clearly tell you that Islam creates a very negative mindset, that WILL 100% INFLUENCE A SIZABLE part of the population to do and think as evil as Mohammed, then you just state, that this is not true. And it does not bloody matter if some can resist it fully, many others don't care too much, others will ignore the negative commands of Islam. Next you will call us Islamophobes, you will call Ex-Muslims Islamophobes and how is that not exactly like the regressive left?

Before you don't acknowledge that Islam is not compatible with WEstern civilization, in fact not compatible with any civilization, that Islam is utterly evil, then there is not much to talk about.

You will bring out the leftist open borders arguments just added with the fact of collusion by the West. But the Western elite is not raping and killing across the Western world. Yes - we get it - the Western globalists fucked up the Middle East, but that does not excuse them from doing what they do - which is frankly not different than what they did in their homecountries before and what they did across 1400 years.

Your arguments are utterly poor on all levels. On Huffpo, NYT and every other mainstream media fake-news outlet they would applaud you. Feminsts would sing your praise and Antifa would invite you into their ranks. Congratulations.

Also - you constantly paint diverse solutions stated by us as absolute like "deport all Muslims", "all Muslims are guilty" etc. You clearly in a semi-autistic manner constantly gnaw on those points while in a thread dedicated to another slaughter of innocent Westerners you bring out some potential collusion with the globalist elite. Yeah - we agree on that, but you don't go beyond that. Like many Islam lovers you stop right there excusing Islam of any responsibility. Islam is the poison - Muslims may or may not have been influenced by this, but that does not change the ideology. It is as if someone constantly would defend pure Nazi ideology and then when we say that it is not positive, then he would constantly say that not all Germans are evil. YES - FOR FUCK's sake - Germans are not automatically evil, but those that embraced and lived the 100% Nazi ideology and went out slaughtering entire villages for racial purity, they were pretty evil. ONly because Islam the ideology hides as a religion and not a political party, then it must be left alone? Fuck that - it is an ideology, as a religion it is even far worse than a political party. Islam is evil, Muslims not necessarily - depending how much of that ideological crap has entered their minds.

Post: #433

(06-08-2017 04:30 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-07-2017 03:22 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  https://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-m...channel-4/

-19% of British Muslims support the objective of creating an Islamic State
-3% of British Muslims support the way the Islamic State is going about establishing a caliphate
-18% of Muslims sympathize with those who engage in violence against those who mock the prophet
-21% of Muslims do not condemn stoning for adultery.
-15% of British muslims do not condemn suicide bombing
-17% of British Muslims do not condemn terrorism as a form of political protest
-25% of Muslims do not condemn those who organize radical groups but do not themselves take part in terrorist activity
-21% of Muslims do not condemn those who threaten terrorism as part of a political protest

Your third link (from "Mirror") is complete conjecture, and is contradicted by the data in your second.

These numbers are incredible and easily explain why Islam should be banned from any polite society. With numbers like these you are guarented war, 100% of the time. Simply a matter of time.

That you quote these numbers, Excelsior, and see no problem, reveals extreme cognitive dissonance on your part.

No, you misunderstand me (as you have been wont to do as of late). I see a problem.
My solution simply differs from yours.

Quote:Haven't you argued extensively against the evils of racism and Black slavery? And yet here you are, defending the biggest slavers in history (who the hell do you think sold the Blacks to Europe... Europe was just getting into the slave game Muslims had on lockdown for nearly 800 years) with some ridiculous "not all Muslims are like that?"

You're actually trying to claim that I need to back you up on this because of the Arab slave trade? Seriously?

Let's get a few facts straight here.

If we're going to start playing atrocity olympics, there's no head start for European chattel slavery which did as much damage in 4 centuries as nearly 1000 years of Arab slavery managed to do. I am not going to go into a long dissertation documenting the many reasons why this is absurd, as such dissertations have already been written 20 times over and should be well known and easily accessible to anyone well versed on the topic. You are claiming moral high ground you do not have.

Second, it has become abundantly clear to me in our recent discussions that, while you are quite well read on a number of eras and localities in world history, your level of knowledge with regard to African history is very close to zero. You're not equipped to talk about it.
How do I know that? Plenty of past incidents offer evidence, but right here in this post you talk about "who sold Blacks to Europe". If you were more well versed on the history of the continent, you would know that the "whos" in this instance were not muslims (certainly not anyone with a connection to the lands that have sourced the majority of the people we're contemplating in this dicussion, re: British Muslims), but other (predominantly non-muslim) blacks. That's an entirely different discussion that has, quite literally, nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Finally, the slave trade (be it of the Atlantic European or Arab variety) has absolutely no bearing on this discussion and what should be done about the problems at hand. This is about as big a red herring as they come.

Quote:You'll defend affirmative action against Whites, yet support the immigration of the biggest slavers of Blacks in all of history into the your country on the taxpayer's dime.

Another red herring. How long are you going to keep up with these?

Quote:Now do you understand why I was against the removal of the confederate statue? Do you see how deadly historical ignorance can be?

You are not in a position to lecture me on historical ignorance right now. You're displaying far too much of it.

(06-08-2017 04:38 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

(06-07-2017 03:22 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  https://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-m...channel-4/

-19% of British Muslims support the objective of creating an Islamic State
-3% of British Muslims support the way the Islamic State is going about establishing a caliphate
-18% of Muslims sympathize with those who engage in violence against those who mock the prophet
-21% of Muslims do not condemn stoning for adultery.
-15% of British muslims do not condemn suicide bombing
-17% of British Muslims do not condemn terrorism as a form of political protest

You... you honestly don't see any problem with this???

On the contrary, I do. We just have different solutions to that problem.

Post: #434

(06-08-2017 05:48 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  On the contrary, I do. We just have different solutions to that problem.

So out of interest, what would be your solutions?

+ Bigger flower processions
+ more candle vigils
+ open borders
+ more hug a Muslim campaigns
+ more concerts after each terrorist attacks
+ more anti-Islamophobia campaigns
+ more searches of grandmothers and 5yo blond girls in tandem with the dangerous looking Arab man - because profiling is racist

Post: #435

(06-08-2017 05:42 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  All I see is just a bunch of words for ....bla bla ... not all Muslims.... bla bla .... Islam is not problematic..... bla bla .... the West created Islamic terror all by itself.

A vast oversimplicifcation and lazy, snarky dismissal.

That's disappointing. Hoped for more, to be honest.

Quote:The problem here is that you Excelsior don't fucking see how evil Islam truly is.
Even when we trump out Ex-Muslims, Ex-Salafis, secular Muslims who clearly tell you that Islam creates a very negative mindset, that WILL 100% INFLUENCE A SIZABLE part of the population to do and think as evil as Mohammed, then you just state, that this is not true. And it does not bloody matter if some can resist it fully, many others don't care too much, others will ignore the negative commands of Islam. Next you will call us Islamophobes, you will call Ex-Muslims Islamophobes and how is that not exactly like the regressive left?

You're calling Islam evil and referring to all muslims as followers of Islam as members of an evil cult. You've openly called for the eradication of Islam in its entirety and the mass deportation of all muslims on the basis of their religion.

I've seen the term "islamophobe" thrown around with little justification by SJWs before, but if there ever were such a thing as an Islamophobe and if there ever were a time in which the use of said term was justified, I'd have to imagine you've gotten there.

Quote:Before you don't acknowledge that Islam is not compatible with WEstern civilization, in fact not compatible with any civilization, that Islam is utterly evil, then there is not much to talk about.

You know what? You're probably right.

Quote:Your arguments are utterly poor on all levels. On Huffpo, NYT and every other mainstream media fake-news outlet they would applaud you. Feminsts would sing your praise and Antifa would invite you to your ranks. Congratulations.

Your arguments in this topic are barely worthy of the title "argument". Most of them boil down diatribes high on anger and hatred and downright low on any real substantive, objective thought capable of creating a viable long-term solution. Whatever else you have written has usually boiled down to weak attempts at social shaming, labelling everyone who doesn't agree with you an SJW, feminist, antifa, etc, etc, and snarkily advising them to become Saudis, join feminists, etc, etc.

That's not an argument, it's just a waste of time.

(06-08-2017 05:55 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 05:48 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  On the contrary, I do. We just have different solutions to that problem.

So out of interest, what would be your solutions?

+ Bigger flower processions
+ more candle vigils
+ open borders
+ more hug a Muslim campaigns
+ more concerts after each terrorist attacks
+ more anti-Islamophobia campaigns
+ more searches of grandmothers and 5yo blond girls in tandem with the dangerous looking Arab man - because profiling is racist

I posted the solutions above. You ignored them, as you have been wont to do in this discussion because you're not actually making any arguments. You're just wasting time.

Post: #436

Given by your definition, Excelsior, "Western fuckery" likely includes support for the existence of Israel, what proposal do you have that would allow the state of Israel to continue to exist?

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #437

Excelsior - you don't offer any solutions.

All you say is, that the globalists have to first stop meddling in the Middle East, withdraw completely and then everything will be fantastic.

You seem to forget the times of 700-1800 where Muslims invaded, killed and enslaved non-stop almost all without any fight back from the other major powers. Thier conquest also stopped not because of ethical reasoning, but because the West became overwhelmingly strong.

You offer zero solutions. There would still be millions of unemployed Muslim men sitting around and waiting for the Caliphate to appear. It does not even help if they get an education - the recent Paris hammer and knife attacker had a Master degree from Sweden. Still he decided to rather crack skulls.

Post: #438

(06-08-2017 05:48 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 04:30 AM)Samseau Wrote:  ...
You... you honestly don't see any problem with this???

...
On the contrary, I do. We just have different solutions to that problem.

Since you ignored my simple question and replied to it with moral preening let's try this another way.

-19% of British Muslims support the objective of creating an Islamic State. That's roughly 591,850 muslims.
How specifically do you plan to handle these ones?

-3% of British Muslims support the way the Islamic State is going about establishing a caliphate. That's roughly 93,450 muslims.
How specifically do you plan to handle these ones?

-18% of Muslims sympathize with those who engage in violence against those who mock the prophet. That's roughly 560,700 muslims.
How specifically do you plan to handle these ones?

-21% of Muslims do not condemn stoning for adultery. That's roughly 654,150 muslims.
How specifically do you plan to handle these ones?

-15% of British muslims do not condemn suicide bombing. That's roughly 420,000 muslims.
How specifically do you plan to handle these ones?

-17% of British Muslims do not condemn terrorism as a form of political protest. That's roughly 529,550 muslims.
How specifically do you plan to handle these ones?

These people are a problem right now. Pie-in-the-sky solutions about pulling out of the middle-east are not going to noticeably alter the figures above. Just read the numbers. Almost one in every five muslims on the bus to Kent supports the creation of an islamic state. Alternately if almost one in every five Christians on the bus to Kent supported the creation of a thousand year Reich, all of western civilisation would be losing it's fucking mind over the issue, YOU INCLUDED!

I'm dead fucking serious. I want you to imagine that you were a black man or a Jew living in a nation where 591,850 people polled that they supported the creation of a thousand year white supremacist state.

You would be shitting your pants. ALL moral preening about "reasons and rights" would be the furthest thing from your mind imaginable.

p.s. Numbers edited due to originals being calculated low on 2011 census data.

Post: #439

What do you mean "continue to exist"? Israel has one of the world's most powerful armies, they'll do just fine in securing their existence. And if they don't survive, then I say even better. A world without Israel is a better place.

Excelsior is absolutely on point in this thread.

Post: #440

(06-08-2017 05:29 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  This is the root of the problem - we can kill the whole refugee crisis at its core if efforts are made to a) stabilize the middle east and b) quite destabilizing the middle east.

This is incorrect. A vast majority of the refugees are NOT Syrian, even according to crooked official statistics that allow anyone to identify as Syrian no questions asked, and a large part are not even Arab. There's fewer Libyans arriving to Europe than Pakistanis, Gambians and Moroccans, for God's sake! What's the excuse for Moroccan "refugees"? How about Ivory Coast? What happened to the internationally agreed principle of first safe country?

This "but we're bombing them" excuse is delusional at best and dishonest at worst and you know it.

Heck, even if there weren't any North/West African immigrants coming to Europe to enjoy Free Shit ™, instead you'd simply get Albanians, Roma, Bangladeshi or even Latin Americans. The pool of people waiting to line up for Free Shit ™ is inexhaustible - there are a few billions of them compared to less than one billion in developed western countries!

Fuck, give me a guarantee that I'll get a free government apartment, free food and medical care, pocket money and a guaranteed cozy office job, and I'll also pack up and head to Germany right this second!

Yes, obviously we should stop the stupid wars and regime changes, but illegal immigration into Europe has nothing to do with those. And even when we do accept some actual refugees, we have every right to screen them thoroughly and hold them to high standards of behavior instead of coddling them like now.

Post: #441

Anyone calling Excelsior an SJW is being absurd. He has different solutions, but the guy has been an absolute stalwart and driving force of this place for years, going back to his Athlone McGinnis days with excellent pieces like this.

So much so, that there was an appreciation thread in his honour in 2014, which was bumped recently by QC. Excelsior is right, his position hasn't changed, the forum's consensus has.

I'm not saying people can't be critical of long-time, high-rep members. I don't agree with some of what he saying, I think it's palpably false. I'm just saying chucking out "SJW" is absurd in this case.

Post: #442

< Fine - he is very likely no SJW, we just differ very strongly on this. Ah well - we cannot be right on all topics - one of us is closer to the truth.

Excelsior - you should really read some Islamic texts and listen to Ex-Muslims telling about their experiences in the Islamic culture you hold in such high esteem. Or maybe you are Muslim, which would explain a few things....

Post: #443

To add to Excelsior's points, a lot of the dismissal of Western aggression stems from the fact that the West itself hasn't really experienced being on the other side of terror for quite some time (until recently). There was a report last year, I can't find the link anymore, that estimated the total number of deaths from the "War on Terror" at somewhere between 1.3-2 million. God knows how many maimed and injured. That's like the entire population of Houston, TX being eradicated.

Post: #444

Obviously the retarded Middle Eastern wars made for the benefit of (((greatest ally))) strongly contribute to terrorism, but it's illusory to think that if there were none of those wars ceteris paribus things would be great. The civilization would still remain on the same slow descent into oblivion, only with slightly less suicide bombings involved.

I'm telling you again, there's no race, religion or culture in the world that won't turn into violent little shits when coddled for several generations in a row. Give me the best raised and most peaceful kid that Zelcorpion has to put on massive welfare and diplomatic immunity for 50 years and you'll find Zel's grandkids running around breaking shit on the streets and attacking random people for fun - 100% guaranteed.

It's about encouraging people's worst tendencies, not about war.

Post: #445

(06-08-2017 07:05 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  To add to Excelsior's points, a lot of the dismissal of Western aggression stems from the fact that the West itself hasn't really experienced being on the other side of terror for quite some time (until recently). There was a report last year, I can't find the link anymore, that estimated the total number of deaths from the "War on Terror" at somewhere between 1.3-2 million. God knows how many maimed and injured. That's like the entire population of Houston, TX being eradicated.

Can you please qualify that against muslim vs muslim aggression when we're not in the area?

As I recall when we're not killing them, they're killing each other, and largely both happen at the same time anyway.

I'm not saying I'm glad the elites are fucking around in there, but lets not wank around about fantasies that the middle east was a Garden of Eden before we started flying drones over it.

Post: #446

(06-08-2017 06:49 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  What do you mean "continue to exist"? Israel has one of the world's most powerful armies, they'll do just fine in securing their existence. And if they don't survive, then I say even better. A world without Israel is a better place.

Excelsior is absolutely on point in this thread.

Well that's a quote for the ages.

"Drive them into the sea" eh, TM?

It's not OK to victimise innocent muslims for the actions of the few, but what would inevitably be a genocide of the Jews due to the actions of a few Jewish elite is apparently just fine. Millions of Men. Women. Children. Meh.

"...if they don't survive, then I say even better. A world without Israel is a better place."

I would say you're pretty much done. Any credibility you had on the issue is toast.

Post: #447

(06-08-2017 07:22 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  It's not OK to victimise innocent muslims for the actions of the few, but what would inevitably be a genocide of the Jews due to the actions of a few Jewish elite is apparently just fine. Millions of Men. Women. Children. Meh.

Anuddah Shoah!

I swear Israel has more people cucking for it in the West than within the country itself. Keep it up, Lennie. That's a good goy.

Post: #448

(06-08-2017 07:31 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 07:22 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  It's not OK to victimise innocent muslims for the actions of the few, but what would inevitably be a genocide of the Jews due to the actions of a few Jewish elite is apparently just fine. Millions of Men. Women. Children. Meh.

Anuddah Shoah!

I swear Israel has more people cucking for it in the West than within the country itself. Keep it up, Lennie. That's a good goy.

Well your talk is tough, so can I get a simple quote from you?

Can you say "I want all Jews in Israel to be genocided"?

Post: #449

(06-08-2017 07:39 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Well your talk is tough, so can I get a simple quote from you?

Can you say "I want all Jews in Israel to be genocided"?

Believe it or not, I don't wish death upon people, which is more than I can say from some guys in this thread, who probably beat off to the idea of bombing Muslims. But I am emotionally detached from things that don't affect me or those close to me. Israel means about as much to me as the future of Namibia. If it gets "wiped off the map" a la Ahmadinejad tomorrow, I really wouldn't care.

Apathy =/= ill will

Post: #450

Aww, see you pussed out at the last second.

You've been crying rivers of tears for the poor muslims being bombed in the Middle East and victimised in the West.

But suddenly it's "I am emotionally detached from things that don't affect me or those close to me."

So are we then to derive from this that muslims are people that are close to you and pretty much "fuck everyone else"?