(06-08-2017 09:26 AM)Armogan Wrote:  Nothing to see here, long transaction times, very high fees. Nothing to see the price is still going up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU

I just sent ETH, it took 34 seconds and cost $.01.

No one is saying that there is nothing to see, but if you are emphasizing something that is exaggerated, then you may lose some credibility.

Sure, none of us know all of the factors affecting price, but the price in bitcoin seems to be still going up quite dramatically in spite of the ongoing issue about fees and transaction times that has gotten quite worse in recent months (maybe spam attacks but whatever is the cause), and prices still went pretty much straight up from $890 to $2,930.. sure we could get another correction, but the fees and the transaction times do not seem to be the primary cause driving bitcoin at the moment and even bitcoin seems to be moving away from any practicality (at least currently and until such fees and times is resolved) as a form of micropayment.

Also transaction averages in bitcoin are going up and becoming quite high too. .. if transaction averages in the couple thousand averages, then people are likely using it more for larger transactions rather than smaller ones.. at least currently.

So I don't know except for transaction fees and times are not really a central driving force in BTC price movements at the moment, but could be a good excuse to possibly assert that bitcoin is dead in the future or at whatever point when bitcoin price is correcting or even if there were a trend change at some point, which is possible too.

We can cross those bridges when we get there, if we do, because currently ongoing BTC price pressures seem to be up, even though we currently seem to be in a kind of mini-correction in the past two days or so that could become bigger or even turn into something larger or flat.. and.. lots of things possible, as you know... even though up seems to have a bit better odds than either down or flat, at least currently.

By the way, some folks might get all caught up in saying bitcoin is going down and bitcoin is crashing blah blah blah.. In that regard, we have to consider that BTC prices went up from $2,550-ish to $2,930 in less than 24 hours... so sometimes it is going to be natural to hesitate and retrace and even get stuck in that same price range before proceeding up, and even have a downward fake out, too.. these are all normal and reasonable market movements that do not really tell us for sure whether we are returning down, going flat or the most likely scenario that we are still going up...

So yeah, if we consider the range.. which is constantly changing and if we account for all three price directions, then to break out of the range in the next week or so, up would be about 41%, flat would be about 15% and down would be 34%.. .. something like that.... of course we are all going to assign our own numbers, so it is not obvious or absolute that we are going up in my view, but just greater odds of breaking out of the range up rather than flat or down....

I am not exaggerating the clear negative implications of large transaction times and high fees.

You are overlooking these items ("Nothing to see here BTC is at an ATH...uppity"). Yes, the price is high despite these failures. But eventually there will be a boiling point and the price will no longer continue it's uptrend, or even decline.

You can only ignore your hot Ukranian mail order bride eating Five Guys twice a day ("Nothing to see here guys she's eating Five Guys, but so what look how hot she is."). Until she balloons to a whale and is disgusting. Next thing you know you're drinking a liter of Everclear a night at Rage is West Hollywood. I've seen it happen a thousand times. Sad. You lack foresight and are not a visionary.

I think BTC is still the reserve currency in this space. A large decline would potentially effect everything. I want BTC to go to 4,000.

At that point, I will get a grocery bag of pure E, enough to put holes in the brain. So much that every 12 hours I will hear Morgan Freeman narrate an entire season of Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman.

That's my goal what's yours?

If bitcoin transaction times are so long that it takes days to clear and is not fully anonymous, then what's the point in using it?

I think the only reason bitcoin is so high now is that it's the gateway cryptocurrency to other cryptos -- that is, you have to buy bitcoin to buy ripple, siacoin, golem, stratis, etc.

You can also do the same with ETH to a smaller extent, and its only a matter of time when ETH steals the #1 spot when and if they fix their network.

As bitcoin eclipses $3K, does anyone think the price will start to slow down? Despite mainstream interest in BTC rising, how many people have $3000 in savings to spend on it?

Most of us here on RVF I would assume do, and for some this may just be a sneeze, but isn't the average joe going to quickly get priced out if the price skyrockets? As it goes up, fewer and fewer new recruits will be able to afford it. In a bitcoin idealist's world, I suppose folks might start buying up fractions of bitcoins, buying it up in satoshis?

(06-07-2017 09:52 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  Moving some of my BTC from gdax to poloniex. Transaction is still unconfirmed after 1 hour. A little worrying...

EDIT: It finally confirmed. Whew...

Someone, I think Armogan, recommended always sending from your exchange to your wallet first, then to the other exchange. E.g. GDAX -> CleanSlate's wallet -> poloniex.

(06-08-2017 09:18 PM)Stun Wrote:  As bitcoin eclipses $3K, does anyone think the price will start to slow down? Despite mainstream interest in BTC rising, how many people have $3000 in savings to spend on it?

Bitcoin is divisible down to eight decimal places; you don't have to buy an entire coin at once.

This seems to be a common misconception, though, so it certainly could start putting off the average person (who then turns around and buys XRP because it's "only" $0.30 and OMG what if it goes as high as Bitcoin!!!).

(06-08-2017 06:43 PM)Armogan Wrote:  I am not exaggerating the clear negative implications of large transaction times and high fees.

Well, when you frame the issue like that, then you seem to be emphasizing some form of credibility, and I have no claim to attempting to being an expert or even suggesting whether one person or another will consider my views to be reasonable. Guys can take my opinions, predictions, and assessments with whatever grain of salt that they chose.

Yes, you are giving more emphasis to transaction times and fees than me, and I believe that I am attempting to call balls and strikes rather than suggesting what that means beyond the fact that BTC prices keep going up in spite admittedly longer transaction times and higher fees.

(06-08-2017 06:43 PM)Armogan Wrote:  You are overlooking these items ("Nothing to see here BTC is at an ATH...uppity").

I am not saying that. I am saying prices are going up and seem likely to continue going up. I don't boil down my assessment to a few factors or negativing factors, and I don't even know exactly how I reach such assessments sometimes, except perhaps a sense of momentum, psychological points, technical analysis, adoption etc... - and even including all of the money currently coming into the crypto space through a multitude of seemingly new pump and dumps... so a combination of factors seems to be causing the ongoing and upwards price pressures that continues to be way the fuck beyond my expectations.. and it continues in spite my opinion, assessment prediction etc.. I have little to no effect on any of this.. with more emphasis towards the "no effect" part of the scale.


Also, my buy/sell strategy does not change a whole hell of a lot, except I suppose maybe I don't sell as much in anticipation that the price is going up, and maybe I buy a little bit more wheh the price goes down and maybe at a certain point I may sell a bit more because I think that we are topping out.. .. but yeah, my changes to my strategy are largely on the margins.

(06-08-2017 06:43 PM)Armogan Wrote:  Yes, the price is high despite these failures. But eventually there will be a boiling point and the price will no longer continue it's uptrend, or even decline.

Of course, that is true with anything, and currently, roughly, I am anticipating that point to be in about six weeks (for the first big dip), and some other follks have been predicting that dip ever since $890.. so yeah, sooner or later, they are going to be correct.. and I am not really sure.. so I talk about various resistance points and probabilities and yeah, getting to $4k to $6k in six weeks is perhaps about a 35% chance.. I don't know what is so controversial about that kind of opinion, even if your opinion may be more bearish than that, perhaps.

(06-08-2017 06:43 PM)Armogan Wrote:  You can only ignore your hot Ukranian mail order bride eating Five Guys twice a day ("Nothing to see here guys she's eating Five Guys, but so what look how hot she is.").

Again, you seem to be engaged in a series of false attributions. Guys can look at whatever they like. i am merely one guy giving my opinion, and giving weight to various factors, and yeah, you give more weight to some factors and I give less weight to those factors.. and in the end, what difference does it make? Guys make their own choices.. Are you suggesting that I have some kind of pull on guys? I have already witnessed a mulititude of decisions by guys who vary quite considerably in their approach to bitcoin. Some chose not to invest at all, some chose to put very small percentages into bitcoin, and the same has been true for years, even though in recent months, several guys are participating a bit more in these crypto threads.

(06-08-2017 06:43 PM)Armogan Wrote:  Until she balloons to a whale and is disgusting. Next thing you know you're drinking a liter of Everclear a night at Rage is West Hollywood. I've seen it happen a thousand times. Sad. You lack foresight and are not a visionary.

I don't claim to be a visionary. I just participate in these threads to find out from other guys and also to share my own experiences and opinions.

Whether I have been lucky or not, I have been projecting bitcoin to be an upwards appreciating asset..

I am not totally shocked by this exponential growth period of the past 20 months, that became even more exponential in the past 5 months, but I don't claim any kind of credit for being bullish because in some regards, my mouth is hanging open, too.

(06-08-2017 06:43 PM)Armogan Wrote:  I think BTC is still the reserve currency in this space. A large decline would potentially effect everything. I want BTC to go to 4,000.

Does that mean you hold some BTC?

And, sure we seem to kind of agree, and currently BTC seems to be serving as a kind of reserve currency, and it does not matter too much to me whether it continues to serve that status or not - even though it does seem likely that BTC is going to continue to serve in that place at least for the near term future 6 months, 1 year.. possibly even the next couple of years, but if some other coin starts to take its place, then we might be able to see that happening while it happens.. .. so yeah, this crypto space is dynamic and there are potentials for large and rapid changes under certain circumstances that may or may not be anticipated.

(06-08-2017 06:43 PM)Armogan Wrote:  At that point, I will get a grocery bag of pure E, enough to put holes in the brain. So much that every 12 hours I will hear Morgan Freeman narrate an entire season of Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman.

That's my goal what's yours?

I don't really understand your goal, and I just attempt to sell if the prices go up and buy as prices go down and I have various schedules for such.

I have bitcoin investments and I have other investments. I may diversify some of my investments, but I also have other things going on in life, too such as selling a business that is pressing on me, to some extent... and then maybe once I sell the business, then I will travel. If BTC prices continue to go up, then I will spread out my buy and sell orders a bit larger. Even right now, I feel pretty cash rich, so if BTC prices drop a lot then I will continue to buy more.

My plans are not really that big for the $4 to $6k range, as you are suggesting $4k to be a kind of big price, and more likely the price will go somewhere in the middle of the range. I may sell a bit more in the $4k to $6k range.. but I expect that there could be a pretty decent sized correction from mid July until about September or even later in the year.. and maybe the correction could last half a year or longer - but then in the next run up we may get ourselves into a $12k to $20k price range.. None of this is certain, for sure, but my longer term plans do contemplate such possibilities, so I do not want to sell too many at a lower price, and yeah it is possible that we could get caught in some quagmire in which prices do not go that high into the $12k to $20k range for several years.. I don't really claim to know too much except for possibilities that are constantly changing based on momentum, developments and maybe what other coins are doing, too... including whether and how forking (soft are hard) might play out.

(06-08-2017 08:14 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  If bitcoin transaction times are so long that it takes days to clear and is not fully anonymous, then what's the point in using it?

There are also spam attacks going on too.

Microtransactions is not the only point of bitcoin, and average transactions sizes in bitcoin have gone up quite a bit, too.

Some institutions and individuals are going to be more comfortable with bitcoin and the hashing power, but sure some of them may migrate.

(06-08-2017 08:14 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  I think the only reason bitcoin is so high now is that it's the gateway cryptocurrency to other cryptos -- that is, you have to buy bitcoin to buy ripple, siacoin, golem, stratis, etc.

This really sounds like an alt coin pumper talking point, and these kinds of claims are repeated a lot. They are repeated so much that people begin to believe that they are true.

(06-08-2017 08:14 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  You can also do the same with ETH to a smaller extent, and its only a matter of time when ETH steals the #1 spot when and if they fix their network.

Another one of those talking points. Sure, it could happen, but I would be careful in concluding that too early.

I could really give a ratt's ass which currency ends up fulfilling such purposes, becaue I will just move my value, if I feel that it is justified to move my value.

So, yeah, if you put your value on ETH and it get's pumped to 10x bitcoin , then you will do pretty well, relatively speaking.

In the past couple of years, both ETH and BTC have done pretty well relative to fiat, and ETH has done better relative to BTC, and you seem to be assuming such trend to continue, or at least you are placing a pretty decently sized probability on such occurrence.

I don't really have any problem with such variances in bets, and my bets seem to be different from yours. As long as you feel prepared for the upside or the downside of your bet, then you just see how it plays out and tweak a bit in the future, if you need to. It is quite likely that none of us are going to be exactly correct in our tentative views of the future, and I personally try not to anticipate too much in advance, except maybe just an overall idea regarding BTC appreciation relative to fiat... currently I am not taking any stake relative to ETH - even though I may not be apposed to considering such stake, if it seems to me to be justifiable at some future point in time.

(06-08-2017 10:49 PM)Isaac Jordan Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 09:18 PM)Stun Wrote:  As bitcoin eclipses $3K, does anyone think the price will start to slow down? Despite mainstream interest in BTC rising, how many people have $3000 in savings to spend on it?

Bitcoin is divisible down to eight decimal places; you don't have to buy an entire coin at once.

This seems to be a common misconception, though, so it certainly could start putting off the average person (who then turns around and buys XRP because it's "only" $0.30 and OMG what if it goes as high as Bitcoin!!!).

Yep.. even when guys know better, they get caught up in some of these irrelevant and misleading discussions regarding unit value and how many units (or fractions of a unit) you need to own, and it really does not matter too much.

The more important question remains whether the asset is overvalued or undervalued and if it is going up or down or stable and what is the timeline for such price movement.

Surely, we have, at least, a month more of considerable volatility in the bitcoin space - whether that volatility is up or down is still to be determined, but there is nearly no fucking way that prices are going flat from here.. so either up or down and possibly both, and maybe we will have up, down, up, down, up, down, and then maybe in the end, we end up around this price point. I don't really have too much of a clue, but I have been profiting quite a hell-of-a lot from ongoing volatility whether it is up or down, and unless I get hacked or if I really screw up my strategy by buying way too much or selling way too little, I am likely going to continue to profit from ongoing BTC volatility because, like I said, the volatility seems to be one of the things that is the most predictable, at the moment... predict the occurrence of such volatility, and not its direction.

So, yeah, it is possible that volatility could dry up, but who is going to predict that low likely happening? Sure, we can watch prices and begin to see longer and longer periods of stable prices, but it should take several months for that to occur, rather than some precipitous drying up of trade volume and interest.

Stun does bring up a good point though.

Despite being able to purchase a fraction of a coin, it's much more attractive to get into the bitcoin game by purchasing a full coin. It just feels better that way.

Has bitcoin ever done, or considered, a bitcoin split? For example drop the price of a coin from $3k to $500 but multiply everyone's current holdings by 6x.

(06-09-2017 09:40 AM)redonion Wrote:  Stun does bring up a good point though.

Despite being able to purchase a fraction of a coin, it's much more attractive to get into the bitcoin game by purchasing a full coin. It just feels better that way.

Has bitcoin ever done, or considered, a bitcoin split? For example drop the price of a coin from $3k to $500 but multiply everyone's current holdings by 6x.

The maximum possible number of bitcoins in circulation has a hard limit of 21 million. They would have to raise that number to do a split as you described. Because of this limit, a split will never happen. (unless they both hard fork it AND remove that limit)

In my opinion satoshi messed up with the 21 million number. Now the price I'd so high, many people,myself included prefer to have 10xcoin x compared to a fraction of a btc.

But i guess he had to balance it. Going with to high cap, would leave one seeming valueless in the beginning.

Another solution is for the user of bitcoin to invent a new term for 1/1000 of btc, and call it like the bitcent or something.

^ there's already a name for that.

1 Satoshi = 0.00000001 BTC

In one of today's newsletters:

Nick’s Note: We’ve talked a lot about bitcoin lately. With good reason… It’s gone from $400 to $2,900 in the past year—a 625% rise. And even after that huge run, we think it still has room to run higher. My colleague Greg Wilson is an expert in this space. Today, he explains why you should ignore the skeptics and buy some bitcoin now.

Why You Should Ignore the Media and Buy Bitcoin

By Greg Wilson, analyst, The Palm Beach Letter

All it takes for a good rally to end is two people talking about it on the train.

That’s according to Randall Forsyth, editor of the oldfangled Wall Street weekly Barron’s.

I’m surprised Barron’s even wrote about bitcoin. But Forsyth’s conclusion is predictable.

He thinks the bitcoin rally is a 21st-century version of the Dutch “Tulipmania.” Here’s what he wrote in the May 27 edition of Barron’s:

Bitcoin’s fans claim it is a technology and not something that can be valued like a stock, which probably echoes conversations in Amsterdam coffee houses in the 1600s to rationalize paying any price for tulip bulbs.

He’s referring, of course, to the 1636–37 tulip bulb craze in Holland. At its peak, one tulip could buy you an entire estate. At the bottom, one tulip could buy you an onion.

Forsyth recounted a recent story of two people talking feverishly about bitcoin on the commuter train. And he harkened back to a similar situation about tech stocks in the late ’90s.

The crypto-currency (bitcoin) has taken flight and taken hold of the public’s imagination like the dot-com bottle rockets before the turn of century.

I can’t help but wonder if Forsyth is still using a typewriter and flip phone.

Not to be outdone, Bloomberg followed up with a May 29 article listing five reasons why people are skeptical about bitcoin. That article also cited the tulip craze.


--
The timing of the articles (May 27 and 29) shouldn’t go unnoticed.

Bitcoin’s price peaked on May 25 at $2,764. Roughly 48 hours later, it plunged to $1,856—a 33% drop. (As I write, it’s already rebounded over the May 25 high to $2,800.)

Soon thereafter, the negative articles started coming out.

Despite bitcoin’s resiliency, people keep asking “Is it different this time?”

Today, I’ll show you two reasons why the bitcoin rally is far from over. But more importantly, if you’re a bitcoin skeptic, I’ll reveal the one question you need to ask yourself to get over the hump… and profit from the bull market in cryptocurrencies.

Ignore the Skeptics and Listen to These Guys Instead

As regular Daily readers know, no one in the business covers cryptocurrencies like we do at the Palm Beach Research Group. And we’ve been light years ahead of the mainstream media—which still has its head stuck in the sand when it comes to cryptocurrencies.

Just last week, my colleague Teeka Tiwari warned that bitcoin doubters would be out in force. As he showed us, bitcoin has been declared dead at least 129 times already. (And that’s not counting the latest premature obituaries from Barron’s and Bloomberg.)

We’re seeing it again now. But it’s not adding up to what I’m hearing from cryptocurrency experts. These are the people who really know what’s going on… and the ones I listen to.

Last month, I attended the Consensus 2017 blockchain conference in New York. This conference gave me access to some of the greatest leaders in the cryptocurrency space. And none of them referred to bitcoin as “Tulipmania.” In fact, it was quite the opposite.

Recommended Link

One illuminating comment came from Michael Moro, the CEO of Genesis Global Trading. Genesis is an institutional trading firm. And it’s traded over 1.5 million bitcoins. (That’s over $3 billion in today’s dollars.)

Here’s his take:

In the last six weeks, I’ve gone from having millionaire conversations to billionaire conversations. There’s plenty of money still left to be deployed.

He meant that quite literally. In 2016 and early 2017, institutional clients interested in bitcoin were millionaires. Today, billionaires are asking Michael about buying bitcoin.

Brian Kelly, the founder and managing member of Brian Kelly Capital Management (BKCM), shared a similar sentiment at the conference:

Six months ago, we started getting interest from family offices. Now we’re getting interest from venture capitalists and smaller institutions. And I think in three to five years, we’ll be getting interest from pension funds. We are still in the first innings. I would use any price pullback to buy; there is a wall of money coming. Just 1% of institutional money and we would see an explosion of prices.

This supports what I explained in the March 27 Daily. There’s $3 trillion in assets under management in the hedge fund industry alone. If a small percentage of those funds goes toward bitcoin, it could boost prices to over $4,000.

But institutional money isn’t the only tailwind behind bitcoin. Changing regulations are making the currency a legal method of payment in many parts of the world.

Japan Leads the Way

Japan is a good example of what’s to come.

On April 1, the country recognized bitcoin as a legal method of payment. (We brought this story to you back in April.) Now we’re starting to see the news bear fruit.

Major companies are entering the cryptocurrency exchange market in Japan. These are not tiny startup companies. We’re talking about companies with $1 billion-plus market caps.

One example is SBI Holdings. The $3 billion financial conglomerate is setting up SBI Virtual Currencies. It’s an exchange between the Japanese yen and cryptocurrencies. SBI manages $1.7 billion in assets.

Other examples include brokerage account provider kabu.com Securities and foreign exchange margin-trading business Money Partners Group. Kabu.com Securities earned nearly $24 billion in revenue last year. And Money Partners Group has over 270,000 client accounts.

Here’s why this is important… These are the companies setting up the infrastructure to handle the wall of money flowing toward bitcoin.

And the money is coming.

Consider one more comment I heard from Brian Kelly: “Japan’s regulation is big news. Japan does $10 trillion in foreign exchange trading quarterly. That liquidity is coming to cryptocurrencies.”

What we see in Japan will spread across the world.

Are you ready?


What You Need to Ask Yourself

If you’re still not convinced, just ask yourself this one question. If you answer no, then you should go out and buy some bitcoin.

Okay, here’s the question: Is it too late to start using the internet?

I don’t think many people will answer yes. After all, the internet is a useful technology. Overall, life is easier with it. Former skeptics are now converts.

And what the internet did for information is what bitcoin will do for money. Money is just the first application. There are many more.

If you have a few bucks in your savings account, put some toward bitcoin.

Take the first step into the future

I suppose that every day, we can have a little bit of a tweak of our perspective regarding BTC price movement(s), regarding what is going on in the crypto space and the apparent ongoing momentum, whether that momentum is up, down or sideways and whether such momentum seems to be changing....

Currently, I am anticipating a testing and a subsequent likely breach of $3k before the end of the weekend, but of course it is possible to take a little bit longer.. ... Thereafter, if we do break above $3k, then it is a likely easy move to the $3,300 plus territory.. with resistance to be likely before $3600.

On the other hand, if we do not break through $3k within a week or so, then we are dealing with a different story and $3,300 plus and blah blah blah.. is merely a pie in the sky type consideration...

We gotta cross one bridge at a time when considering price and price possibilities and nothing is certain. Sure, it does not hurt to have visions and further visions of various scenarios that are longer plays, but when we begin to discuss the crossing of too many bridges, the odds of such becomes lower and lower and we might look foolish by making too many projections so far into the future, because there tends to not be any straight line exactly, and when there is a straight line, that tends to be a sign that some kind of correction is imminent.

Even if such crossings could happen very quickly, we gotta be careful not to assume too much.

(06-09-2017 11:28 AM)Deepdiver Wrote:  .........
I’m surprised Barron’s even wrote about bitcoin. But Forsyth’s conclusion is predictable.

He thinks the bitcoin rally is a 21st-century version of the Dutch “Tulipmania.” Here’s what he wrote in the May 27 edition of Barron’s:

Bitcoin’s fans claim it is a technology and not something that can be valued like a stock, which probably echoes conversations in Amsterdam coffee houses in the 1600s to rationalize paying any price for tulip bulbs.
.................

Whenever anyone is referring to bitcoin as tulip mania or even treating such tulip mania arguments seriously (even just to knock them down), this goes to support that the arguments contained therein are not very well informed about what is bitcoin or thought out regarding the various nuances or even the in-depth contributions of bitcoin and/or other cryptos, even if they might arrive at some of the correct conclusions.

(06-09-2017 09:40 AM)redonion Wrote:  Stun does bring up a good point though.

Despite being able to purchase a fraction of a coin, it's much more attractive to get into the bitcoin game by purchasing a full coin. It just feels better that way.

Has bitcoin ever done, or considered, a bitcoin split? For example drop the price of a coin from $3k to $500 but multiply everyone's current holdings by 6x.

I understand what you are saying. So your post makes some sense, but at the same time, the content is caught up on some strange and irrational obsession on the bitcoin unit, which as you seem to concede is a kind of psychological thing - but you still seem to give that psychological thing way more importance than it merits.

If people do not want to buy bitcoin because it is $163K for each unit, then who cares? That is a psychological and unimportant thing and tells us very little about whether such unit is overvalued or undervalued.

As a few guys already responded, there are already ways to conceptualize the unit in a variety of ways, whether you call the unit a bitcoin or a micro-bitcoin or a satoshi or whatever.

Currently, there are 8 digits recognized in the current implemented protocol and the subunits can be called whatever in order to conceptualize certain price points in terms of dollars or whatever comparable currentcy or asset class..

Whether we call todays price $2820 in terms of bitcoin or $282 (in terms of 1/10 of a bitcoin) or $.282 (in terms of 1/1,000 of a bitcoin) or $.00000282 (in terms of satoshis), the units can be divided, renamed and marketed as needed.

For example, if bitcoin were to go up to $1 trillion per bitcoin unit, then more digits can be added, if needed in order to assist with transactions that are less than $1 trillion. So it seems like a kind of nonsensical argument to get caught up on which unit we are considering as the price, because even though the bitcoin supply is limited, as already mentioned, the units can be divided indefinitely, if such need arises..

The concept of stock splitting does not matter because that concept is already allowed for in the protocol that allows the dividing down 8 digits, and merely the ability to call the subunits whatever you want and then maybe getting others to accept the naming of the subunits and some people are already involved in various proposals to reconceptualize some of the naming and to market various subunits of bitcoin in order to achieve easier calculations and psychological conceptualizations of various subunits - especially when measured in terms of dollars, but yes, bitcoin or some subunit of bitcoin, can be measured in terms of other currencies or assets, too.

(06-09-2017 02:30 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 09:40 AM)redonion Wrote:  Stun does bring up a good point though.

Despite being able to purchase a fraction of a coin, it's much more attractive to get into the bitcoin game by purchasing a full coin. It just feels better that way.

Has bitcoin ever done, or considered, a bitcoin split? For example drop the price of a coin from $3k to $500 but multiply everyone's current holdings by 6x.

I understand what you are saying. So your post makes some sense, but at the same time, the content is caught up on some strange and irrational obsession on the bitcoin unit, which as you seem to concede is a kind of psychological thing - but you still seem to give that psychological thing way more importance than it merits.

If people do not want to buy bitcoin because it is $163K for each unit, then who cares? That is a psychological and unimportant thing and tells us very little about whether such unit is overvalued or undervalued.

As a few guys already responded, there are already ways to conceptualize the unit in a variety of ways, whether you call the unit a bitcoin or a micro-bitcoin or a satoshi or whatever.

Currently, there are 8 digits recognized in the current implemented protocol and the subunits can be called whatever in order to conceptualize certain price points in terms of dollars or whatever comparable currentcy or asset class..

Whether we call todays price $2820 in terms of bitcoin or $282 (in terms of 1/10 of a bitcoin) or $.282 (in terms of 1/1,000 of a bitcoin) or $.00000282 (in terms of satoshis), the units can be divided, renamed and marketed as needed.

For example, if bitcoin were to go up to $1 trillion per bitcoin unit, then more digits can be added, if needed in order to assist with transactions that are less than $1 trillion. So it seems like a kind of nonsensical argument to get caught up on which unit we are considering as the price, because even though the bitcoin supply is limited, as already mentioned, the units can be divided indefinitely, if such need arises..

The concept of stock splitting does not matter because that concept is already allowed for in the protocol that allows the dividing down 8 digits, and merely the ability to call the subunits whatever you want and then maybe getting others to accept the naming of the subunits and some people are already involved in various proposals to reconceptualize some of the naming and to market various subunits of bitcoin in order to achieve easier calculations and psychological conceptualizations of various subunits - especially when measured in terms of dollars, but yes, bitcoin or some subunit of bitcoin, can be measured in terms of other currencies or assets, too.

It's just like stocks, countless times I've heard people talk about the nominal amount of the stock price (e.g. BRK.A @ $255k/share) and say it's wildly expensive even though the price/earnings ratio is around 18. Then they talk about how they're going to buy some thinly traded $5 stock at triple digit PE's because it's "cheap". They have little to no understanding of basic financial concepts.

You can insist on a maintenance to strict logic or you can try to play it to your advantage. One of my friends recently put together a portfolio of alts between $25m-$100m with nominal prices below $1 per coin to specifically take advantage of this fallacy that so many people have. Obviously, the rising tide has benefited almost everyone in cryptos, but his little experiment has outpaced BTC by over 5x in the past six weeks.

(06-09-2017 02:58 PM)booshala Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 02:30 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  [edited out]

You can insist on a maintenance to strict logic or you can try to play it to your advantage. One of my friends recently put together a portfolio of alts between $25m-$100m with nominal prices below $1 per coin to specifically take advantage of this fallacy that so many people have. Obviously, the rising tide has benefited almost everyone in cryptos, but his little experiment has outpaced BTC by over 5x in the past six weeks.

You make a very good point here, booshala. My earlier comment and apparent criticism of such preoccupations with "unit" does not mean that a guy might not be able to profit enormously from the psychological tendencies of the masses...

So, yeah, you can become shit load rich on a variety of mass behaviors - especially if you are willing to spend some time figuring out systems that have a decent potential for capitalizing on such tendencies, as you mentioned that your friend has been able to do and to show actual meaningful and substantial returns on his investment(s).

By the way, it may be worth mentioning some beginner guides to bitcoin and/or crypto.

The whole Bitcoin 101 Blackboard Series by James D’Angelo had a lot of really good educational points in regards to bitcoin, crypto and markets in general, even if they are several years old.


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL...dMapn9ff6q (A beginner's guide to all things bitcoin)

How would one but butcoin and eth?

Anyone here make a fortunate off bitcoin already. I'm sure some people are sitting real pretty.

Here's an interesting article and chart that measures bitcoin's growth based on the growth in the number of APIs.


https://www.programmableweb.com/news/how...2017/06/08


The growth seems to be somewhat gradual, but ongoing... with a bit of a spurt in early 2014, and a little bit of a rise in the curve since early 2017.

One interesting metric.

(06-09-2017 03:25 PM)NewDayNewFace Wrote:  How would one but butcoin and eth?

Anyone here make a fortunate off bitcoin already. I'm sure some people are sitting real pretty.

if you are in the USA, then good places to start buying is coinbase and gemini and maybe local bitcoins, depending on how quickly that you want to get started. Of course, there are other ways, too.

It takes a while to set up some accounts, so even if you do not plan to buy right away, it could be a good idea to set up some accounts, if you do not mind having your transactions through your bank.

Regarding past performance, you likely know the expression that past performance does not guarantee future results, and sometimes can even be a counter-indicator. Accordingly, sometimes you will need to attempt to accomplish an independent evaluation to figure out how you are going to approach the matter, rather than occupying your thoughts too much with whether or not other guys have made money or how much money they may have made.

A while back I had made an assertion that there is some value in considering how much money is being pumped into bitcoin, and how much people are willing to pay for such use of bitcoin.

Accordingly, this exponential graph is quite interesting, showing the 7 day average for fees over the past 2 years.

It is quite amazing how much people seem to be willing to spend on transaction fees, and accordingly, I think that it is logical to conclude that there is some value in bitcoin when you see that people are spending more and more and more on these bitcoin related transaction fees, and seemingly willing to spend on fees on an ongoing basis. In that regard, actions speak louder than words.

https://blockchain.info/charts/transacti...pan=2years