Post: #151

(02-28-2017 11:28 AM)The Breeze Wrote:  Original song came from a finger picking exercise, where this cover
uses strummed chords instead. It works.

Cool cover. Good choice there to strum it. I wrote a song a couple of years back where - being a new guitar player - I spent ages learning to fingerpick my way through it, then the moment I went to record, I ended up strumming it, which gave it a surprisingly-driven intensity even though it was, functionally, a Donovan-style folk ballad.

Quote:And lest AnonymousBosch despair that all the cello players are in fact
bush-pigs, a sweet little Romanian spinner to cheer your soul.

That's exactly the type of girl I thought I'd dream about marrying in my twenties - beautiful, feminine and talented.

Unfortunately, the reality of Australian string musicians is more the type of men and women in this clip: all back fat and tatts. The Poz in the field is overwhelming and getting worse by the year.





Singer's beta AF to look at, but I can't fault his songwriting skill - that's the sound spiders skittering across the floor - or chops at pulling off that bass line whilst singing. Awesome string arrangement too.

Post: #152

Related to the autotuning question above: I'm willing to trade piano* performances instead of money, if any songs you're working on might need them.

* Also harpsichord, organ, pianet, mellotron, electric piano etc.

Post: #153

(02-24-2017 07:39 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  AB thanks for the in-depth reply, but I think you are also missing the mark on what I'm getting at.

While I completely agree that music is generally as engaging as it's dynamic range and contrast dictates (you need dynamic sound to really engage the listener) - the other aspect of it is business.

The reason I'm talking about making hot ass mixes is because music nowadays is LOUD. To be commercially competitive (or at least comparable) your shit needs to stand toe-to-toe with other commercial products. A mix can be perfect, but if it sounds like that quiet shit that your grandaddy used to listen to on the turntable back in the early 60's then it's going to sound "cheap" and "low-production" compared to the super-processed boomy mixes we hear on the radio and on itunes today.

Right now I'm knee-deep in recording a grindcore full length. I will be making multiple final mixes for it because the client intends to release digital and vinyl. That said, it needs to sound as "loud" as other commercial products of it's genre for the audience to take it seriously. Especially if the client is up-and-coming and looking to schlep it out to label reps the product is going to have to be professional.

Things are not done how they used to be done. Like anything - times change.

Contrary to that, there is a somewhat recent resurgence of "old-school" music. Tons of artists are releasing on vinyl nowadays; some exclusively on vinyl. People are also going back to recording totally analog.

Anyway, all that aside if I was making masters at -15db people would be like "yo but why the fuck is this so quiet"

EDIT:

Listen to how fucking loud this track is:

that's brutal. There are no regional mixing boundaries like were expected in the 70s to early 2000s. Like this track you posted, just limited to fuck, everything has some level of compression on in it built up to meet some final peak of overall grand Brick Limited Master of the whole mix, THIS was the sound that originated in NYC. The LA cats mixed for subtle detail with selective but very effective punchiness, unless they were hair-band trail overs from the early 90s which played slam-tag too, then Nashville was a nice, almost perfect equality of the NYC Brick Wall limited sound, and the detailed intricacy breathing of the LA. All that has morphed now.... And when I refer to the 3 main cities, I'm aggregating all music styles being mixed in general. Even the country-rock pop shit coming out of Nashville is loud. And when I say loud I don't just mean sound pressure level affect, I mean tonally loud too. Not a damn frequency steps too heavily on the other.

Pretty much everything is splattered to piss now, however without sounding like piss like it used to when you tried that, with these high bit rates and sample rates touching the extent of human hearing accuracy, I can see why it's gone this route. 2 things drove this IMHO. 1) The resurgence of electronica since the X-rollers of 15-20 years ago, specifically dub-step's hugeness in sound and influence on ALL music - arguably one of the biggest "overall sound and augmented electronic instrumentation advancements" in decades, and 2) an equal combo of trap bass and mongo-booming metal like this. Oh, and the use of the word "EPIC" with everything and trying to be so and experience life as such. Bwa ha.

All three sounds-style changes in instrumentation referenced above (electronically modeled, circuit synth, or otherwise acoustic), as well as actually "fitting" all these "giant" program materialized tracks together is the freaking new craft. Less live Mic pure signal printed then mixed with something source-added. Most drums either totally triggered samples from literally perfect recording events, or real drums blended with real samples then blended with electronic. Kablammo.

My buddy has a punk label in Cleveland he works with a guy whose a Full Sail Grad whose produced 2-3 records for Metal Blade. When I get into discussions with him his final answer is there's so damn many ways to skin a cat now, trying to master more than a hand full of methods is like shooting for everything, then winding up with nothing but shit in the end. I know Pro Tools has so many self-corrective type mixing apps that don't leave the shitty digital artifacts of yester-year that you can do quite a bit before you get it mastered. Also, I know they've found success in the Mastering Realm targeting Mastering Engineers whove done semi-bigger albums but business has fallen off so the prices are a fraction what they used to charge but results are stellar... he mentioned that he may be combining labels with a bit bigger indy whose lining up a disty deal with Warner Records right now.. guessing for non-digital like vinyl ? dunno.

Message me G.S. if you want me to connect you with them. Cheers

Post: #154

(02-24-2017 07:39 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  Listen to how fucking loud this track is:

I had to think on this for a few days.

That sounds dated and quaint to my ears: less modernity and more like the natural extension of the late 80's Chicago / Industrial scene. It's like going back to high school for me. Bizarre.

Probably something to do with organic instruments being processed to the degree that they sound neutered and synthetic, given the synth-and-sample based nature of the era, where guitars were often downsampled to hell and triggered by a keyboard.

I have a controversial personal theory that the reason so much of the music market was lost in the period between Napster (1999) and the Eternal Septemberisation of the Internet, where even Your Grandmother knew how to download music (2008 on) was purely lost sales from an older market segment whose lack of emotional attraction to the hot-mastered sound was probably chalked up to them believing they were just 'getting old'. I remember an older friend buying a (hot) remastered copy of 'Bat Of Hell' by Meatloaf, and telling me later "I remember it being much better than that." I hunted down one of the original CD releases and told him to give that a try, and he said "Wait, it's still good. What's going on?" When I explained he said "Why would they do that?" The record companies lost the market most likely to actually buy music by destroying emotional connection.

I found in interesting lately that modern younger audiences respond to a record like REM's 'Monster' - an ugly, lifeless, career-momentum destroying record - with positive reappraisals. They aren't old enough to remember what music is supposed to sound like, and how unnatural a snare drum with the transients cut off is to my ears.

All this means I don't really know where someone like me fits in anymore, when my song constructions are complex enough to require many tracks:





And that's without X tracks of the live drums, and that's with keyboard strings, so you can - at least - double the four tracks of that when they're replaced by live ones with multiple mics - not to mention how ever many tracks the lead and backing vocals are going to add into the mix.

How can you pull off something that ambitious in a modern market that only allows for simple arrangements with few working parts?

Eventually, I'm just going to have to chalk up Music being lost to Cultural Marxism - and that's what this is, a form of simplifying musical language and destroying possible the emotional connection to transcendent beauty due to the reduced possibilities allowed by the new formats - much like Art, Novels, Movies, the Nuclear Family, Community and Femininity have all been destroyed within my lifetime.

You may call it the Modern Sound, but, to my ears, it's Newspeak, through and through.

Post: #155

Sorry this is so long, I thought just putting links would not interest anyone, so I've embedded the videos themselves.

Incognito, thanks for the post, you're right, the influence that EDM has had on modern production can't be under-estimated, and everyone has access to the same tools as the EDM producers. ( for the most part). Like the Emmure track above, listening to the kick and bass, I don't remember metal bands using that much sub in the low end. I don't really understand the dynamics issue with regards to rock bands however, rock is basically loud music *shrug* , then drop some instruments in the arrangement for dynamic effect, Nirvana being an obvious example of this LOUD, soft, LOUD, soft way of going about dynamics.

I wonder about drums, Phil Collins "In the air", where he pushed drums to the front of the mix. Didn't that start a trend of drums being right up front in the mix? and if so, don't Pop/Rock drummers typically hit that snare hard? maybe going to a sidestick for the verse like a lot of The Police tunes. I just don't find their are a lot of gears for dynamics, either one, or five, no second, third or fourth gear in dynamics in rock, generally. I watched Jack Dejohnette playing a drum solo with John Abercrombie and Jack Holland and I thought of this thread and dynamics, he was getting so many tones out of his snare, but it's jazz. Sometimes I am sick and tired of drums, lol, they really can erase subtley in so many instruments.

Maybe recordings are really loud these days, I honestly haven't noticed the sink in quality ... which could be embarrassing since I do have old hearing, but I still hear very minute things, much of it is just training. I have heard some remastered recordings and the issue I've found is the balance between the instruments is not like the original, this wasn't the vision that was first imagined up, why can't these remasters simply turn up the volume rather than change relationships between instruments?

It would be interesting to see if a compression Ad-on to a browser would change the game somewhat. A company could call it something friendly like 'The Volume Normalizer', actually that's not friendly, but what this would do is keep all the volumes of a youtube playlist even, so the loud-tracks wouldn't get to stand out so damn much. Isn't this what radio stations do? don't they compress all their content to keep the volume levels even?

Speaking of loud, Emmure - Flag of the Beast, is loud, but it's actually normal-loud you know. Play this track by 'The Weeknd' at the same time as the 'Emmure' track, both at the choruses. The Weeknd may even be a tad louder, just a hair, but it's clear as a bell, the dynamics in the song coming from the arrangement, rather than the instruments.





Here's Joni Mitchell on David Letterman. This is really incredible. I don't notice strings usually, but these are so nicely done they're impossible to ignore. This is dynamics! the strings and horns weave in and out of her performance, sometimes almost taking her over, I love it ... so alive! and the drums? Brushes of courses, no bang, bang, bang, for this piece.





There is a lot of good new music out there despite what many people say to me. Here's a tiny snippet off of the top of the iceberg, live too! Real players, live mics, good music.
"Snarky Puppy feat. Jacob Collier & Big Ed Lee - "Don't You Know" (Family Dinner Volume Two"





Jacob Collier is a legit genius, listen to this all the way through. Quincy Jones himself gives him props in the comments section. Maybe not emotionally engaging, but the kid is a KID, and his command over so much is honestly intimidating.

Post: #156

Here's another gem I found on youtube, Joanna Newsom. I don't think anyone here is going to like this at all.

When I first heard her I thought "what the fuck is this? ... please", and then I couldn't stop listening. : ) She sounds intentionally awful, a mix of a child and a very old woman, playing the harpsichord no less. After I 'got' her vibe, I loved it. Totally and utterly inimicable.





And then there's this, Incognito you spoke about "Epic" sound, how's this for epic songwriting? Joanna Newsom again, the album was produced by Newsom and Van Dyke Parks, recorded by Steve Albini. The string arrangements have a large part in the achievement of this mini-masterpiece. Written in 2006. You really need to be in a chill and open-minded mood before listening to this, but it does payoff.





So, there is good music being made, incredible music in fact.

The fact that so much of this won't be known about by a large number of people is a drag, but, without the current power of home recording we probably never would have been exposed to these kind of artists in the first place. The downside to the home recorder is maybe a drought of 'groups' jamming things out and letting chemistry between beings take over. "The Police" being a perfect example of musical chemistry and the magic it can produce. Their individual results never surpassed the freshness and magic of The Police.

Finally, some new music from a guy I saw on the Grammys this year. Found his stuff and love it, funky, soulful, very talented dude, he jumps on the kit around 2:30. Great amalgamation of styles.

Post: #157

(03-03-2017 04:07 PM)Zep Wrote:  Finally, some new music from a guy I saw on the Grammys this year. Found his stuff and love it, funky, soulful, very talented dude, he jumps on the kit around 2:30. Great amalgamation of styles.

I got into Anderson Paak's music a little while ago and I've been hooked. Like you said it's a great amalgamation of styles and he's a great drummer. One of my favorite new school soul drummers for sure. Some his old music is alright but his new Malibu album was solid

Post: #158

I certainly don't agree with the sentiment that modern recording practices and industry standards have really negatively affected the way we listen to music. It's certainly different but not in a bad way.

Recording sound is a technology that is just over 100 years old. It's a relatively new endeavor along with many other advancements to come out of the industrial revolution. Like all technology, it evolves and advances. I don't think mixes being louder and more enveloping is a product of a fake and lifeless evolution of music but rather technology doing what it does best - allowing us to get much more much faster with much less.

Nowadays we can get much fascinating and interesting audio captures and soundscapes with greater detail using much more inexpensive and easy-to-use tools.

I listened to classic music/recordings and current. From the self-titled Black Sabbath to stuff like this:





And I'll tell you there are still plenty of "artsy" bands out there recording all organically and acoustically, but their shit is sill ramped up to the boards in the mix and is loud and vibrant as all hell. Nowadays every track has some level of compression tons of reverb and other added effects and layers of processing to get the most out of the soundscape and pull out all the desired tones and frequencies with surgical precision.

Post: #159

I really want to get into the music business as i feel it would give me purpose in my life. I can play the guitar somewhat well but I feel I'd be out class by the people who have had years of experience. I was wondering it has anyone had any success starting a music career in their twenties. I'm willing to put in the time and effort. As I'm just going to school and have no job right now so I can practice for a couple hours every day.

Post: #160

(03-02-2017 01:46 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Eventually, I'm just going to have to chalk up Music being lost to Cultural Marxism - and that's what this is, a form of simplifying musical language and destroying possible the emotional connection to transcendent beauty due to the reduced possibilities allowed by the new formats - much like Art, Novels, Movies, the Nuclear Family, Community and Femininity have all been destroyed within my lifetime.

You may call it the Modern Sound, but, to my ears, it's Newspeak, through and through.

Another lost thread that I'm glad has resurfaced.

Again, AB sums things up in a paragraph that have been a virtual book in my mind trying to express. It's hard saying to people 'music is crap these days' coz they just laugh at you and say ok, dad!

All the people I respect, and I mean all in the music biz (not talking about the 'industry') but people still doing good work and fighting the good fight, agree at least, that 'pop' music is crap these days. These are even heavy metal producers that can appreciate other art-forms (they are producers, so they have to), but it's not just the fact that we are a bunch of bitter and twisted and old failed musicians. It's too easy to play that card.

Earlier people were discussing the loudness thing (aka loudness wars) and there is that - limiting a track so it is just a square wave of white noise. But it is so much more than that. This modern day phenomenon.

Modern music is crap. Well, 'pop' music. Pop music used to cover quite a broad field, and in my mind it still does: reggae, hip-hop, electronic, girl-bands (the three degrees), motown, synth-pop, etc. You get the picture. I'm not talking high-brow or niche, but stuff that might have got in to the charts back in the day when there was a chart.

I'm not sufficiently in to jazz or classical either or any of that other stuff. Maybe there is a renaissance, a revival, maybe it never went away - I wouldn't know. Pop music. It's an umbrella term, similar to rock music. But even rock music is pop music these days.

Music I do know about - Drum 'n' Bass, the aforementioned hip-hop etc. etc. - it is all fucked - absolutely fucked. And that can't be totally explained by my grand conspiracy theory, though it can in part. There is no market anymore for music. People don't like music. The artists aren't feeling the vibe. Music is dead.

But back to pop music. And to what AB was alluding to that I agreed with so much. Music is lost. It's gone. Buried. Even classical music is being represented by hotties in hot pants for quick bucks. The industry is in melt down. They always were a bunch of sharks, but now they are sharks fighting for their life.

Is it cultural marxism to blame? Could be. Makes sense. Call it a psy-op and be done with it. Music is meant to demoralise and destroy the soul these days.

Lately, I've been wondering if I'm off my rocker. Ok, I am a bit, but not so much that I don't know a charlatan when I see one, or two. I'll give two quick examples: Adele, Ed Sheeran.

Now, Adele has become a billionairess somehow. Great voice, fucking embarrassing songs. I don't know. If I found out one of my friends listened to her music, I wouldn't be able to be friends with them anymore. It represents everything that music is not. It is music for people who do not like music! This is the problem.

Then there's that cock-eyed ginger cunt sheeran. I almost feel sorry for him. He really doesn't realise that he is being used as propaganda against the masses. He's going in to game of thrones. His new mansion cost 55 million pounds (who the fuck buys these records). And he sings that same song, the song that has been doing the rounds for the last 20 years nearly now, that everyone sings. Same structure, same words, same delivery, same arrangement, production, mastering.

Oh, did I mention he can't write a song? Best to point it out in case you didn't get the message.

Fuck me, it's enough to make you want to go boil your head! Not only is sheeran a master songwriter - the new Bob Dylan - but he ministers to the sick, he is a comedian doing sketches, he's a politician with valid views on the economy, he's a business man that knows which way the wind blows in the music 'industry'.

Ever get the sense you are being fucked with? Lady Gaga was bad enough, now we have this ginger twat to contend with on top. Every single fucking day - two articles in the Daily Mail! Saint sheeran. Ahem.

Pretty soon people are going to clock on to the game, aren't they? The music industry makes as much money by pimping 3 artists on each of the only remaining three record industry labels, as they do by developing talent across the board and throwing shit against the wall hoping it will stick (the old paradigm - but it worked for a while). It's less investment intensive and less work intensive, but there is more going on behind the scenes.

They certainly don't want another John Lennon coming along. Another Peter Tosh. Or a Bob Marley. No rabble rousers allowed. It's why they killed the live music scene.

Sure, you can go out to a venue to get man-handled by thugs, pay through the nose to have your coat stolen, mosh it with a bunch of pricks and wankers in the front row.

Music is dead. It's not on life support, it's not just feeling a bit fucking queasy. It's finished.

Ok, let's suppose I am deluded, perhaps just using ego-defense mechanisms to make up for my failure in the music world. Now, say I meet a prominent mover and shaker in a bar sometime (one very famous guy got a record deal by fetching a glass of water for the head of a major label when he was passing out in a lift). We befriend each other. He says to me: you can have anything you want. I can put you on anywhere, put you on any label, etc. etc.

There is not one place I want to play live. There aren't even any people I want to play my music to. I will never go on TV. There is nothing. The whole lot has been decimated. I don't even like people who like music these days. People who like music these days are people who like music that isn't music. All the people I know who like music don't listen to music any more or go to any gigs, because, well, you know...

I get that things are changing. The internet, youtube ripping off artists, no way to earn from streaming, blah blah blah. I do get it. But even the few platforms for distributing music where the artist gets a fair shake, don't count, because no one is interested. Too busy getting another dose of sheeran and adele whacked in to their crumbling junky veins.

So it's game over. I do admire how it's all been taken down. Totally fucking dismantled. I wish it was just me being bitter coz then at least I could listen to some of the other good people making music and realise how shit I am, but no, no one is putting any music out there.

There is no scene. There is no more radio. No TV (yeah like I'm going to fucking appear on Ellen deGenerate's show or car pool fatty fucking hokey cokey). No where to play live. Nobody that even takes the time to listen and relish the music that you put so much of your life blood in to.

You've got sheeran with what? 20 million views on youtube - fuck me he's probably fat off the advertising alone. It's just insane. Not the fact that he is successful when being pushed as the only game in town, but just that nothing has come up to counter this bullshit. No platform, and no artists. People don't form bands any more. It's not cool. And I mean that in an ironic and non-ironic sense.

I make hip-hop. I would fucking die if you put me in a club with jaz-z and all his clowns. I just couldn't do it. Friends with Chris Martin? Yeah, like you give a fuck jay-z, keep on playing 'the game'.

I make drum 'n' bass. No joy there either. Bland moronic lowest common denominator bullshit - fuck the music is bad. The clubs are worse. Where is the venue to listen to drum 'n' bass in?

I write pretty good country songs. I'd love to go to Nashville and live the dream doing Crosby, Stills and Nash quality work. But no, no one home there either. Have you seen the clowns around Nashville these days.

Music is dead. Someone killed it, not sure who.

To paraphrase Solzenhytzen 'We just didn't love our music enough'.

The people get the music they deserve.


Having said all that. The time is pregnant with possibility. It's almost ripe. There is a massive vacuum and that has always been when new movements and exciting things that changed the world came along.

But I won't hold my breath.

There has been no new form of music created in this century? Do you realise that? The last new form of music to be created was Techno back in the late 80's early 90's - even Drum 'n' Bass is an offshoot from that but that came along pretty much the same time with a year or two lag maybe. I defy you to tell me a genre of music that was invented after drum 'n' bass. You can't. And dubstep doesn't count. It's not a genre. It's where the line is drawn in the sand with electronic music.

To paraphrase Francis Fukuyama - It's the end of music.

And I feel fine.

Post: #161

(05-12-2017 11:08 AM)TheWhiteWolf Wrote:  I really want to get into the music business as i feel it would give me purpose in my life. I can play the guitar somewhat well but I feel I'd be out class by the people who have had years of experience. I was wondering it has anyone had any success starting a music career in their twenties. I'm willing to put in the time and effort. As I'm just going to school and have no job right now so I can practice for a couple hours every day.

See AB's succinct post above and my long rant just above this.

There is no music business. It's dead. It doesn't exist.

It has become such a shambling whore-infested crack house that even the pimps don't want to know about it any more. Fuck's sake, the KLF reformed the other day. That should tell you how bad things have got.

If you want to get in to the music biz, you can. Just be prepared to be a whore and not a musician/songwriter. It doesn't matter how much talent you have - talent is inversely proportional to success. You won't be allowed in if you are any good.

But if you still want in, I can help you m'boy.

Got a bad haircut? No, then get one! Ginger is in, but it might be Gray next week, or bald perhaps, or moldy dreadlocks. Just don't look smart.

Can you sing? No? Good. You've got a head start.

Can you write your own songs? Yes? Badly? Yes? Good. You are on the road.

Do you have a sense of situational awareness when others around you are manipulating you and taking the piss out of you? No? Good. You are going places.

Need I carry on?

There are some seminal essays that I usually point people to when they ask this question of yours, but now, right now, even they are looking tired. The entertainment industry is being used as such a stooge of the whole military industrial complex, well, it's just whoring. Good old fashioned sell your arse. It's not even about selling your soul anymore. Standards have dropped. So yeah, you can get in if you have no self-respect, don't know when you are being used and don't mind being embarrassed the fuck out of. The world is your oyster.

I'm hoping this is a quality troll, and you aren't serious.

So you don't play an instrument. You don't write songs. You have no vision, but you want to be a rock-star? Really?

The funny thing is, if you had even a little bit of talent, and the requisite drive, I could push you very far in the right direction. I'm hiring, in fact.

But what the world doesn't need right now is another chancer hoping to get rich off the fat of the land, because 'it might be an interesting career choice'. I suggest you sign half your life away for one of those 'audio-engineering' degrees that no one takes seriously (and you won't even learn how to become a proper engineer).

All vitriol aside TheWhiteWolf, I'm happy to help a fellow RVF'er. What do you do? Do you sing? Write? Look good? Play? Have vision?

If you can answer 'yes' to even one of those questions then there may be a place for you in the new world. But all the same, the new world will need to be fought for. Are you prepared to get your hands dirty? No more free tickets or rides left, I'm afraid. And that is the kindest advice I can give you.

Post: #162

(05-12-2017 06:10 PM)Rigsby Wrote:  snip

He's asking because he's looking for some sort of direction in life. You'd think music would at least get you out of the house, wouldn't you?

Nope.

Good lord, I thought I grew up in a cultural wasteland - late-90s, small town Alberta, High School, a few games of strip poker, and then working in the factory and single motherhood, until the price of oil crashes...

...then it's on to corporate career-job, and FetLife.

Christ; at least we had some half-decent music to listen to, and everybody owned a guitar.

These days?

Wasteland.

Post: #163

(05-12-2017 11:08 AM)TheWhiteWolf Wrote:  I really want to get into the music business as i feel it would give me purpose in my life. I can play the guitar somewhat well but I feel I'd be out class by the people who have had years of experience. I was wondering it has anyone had any success starting a music career in their twenties. I'm willing to put in the time and effort. As I'm just going to school and have no job right now so I can practice for a couple hours every day.

The replies you've gotten to your post have been a little bit apocalyptic in nature, I'll try to state my views in a bit more of a balanced manner.

Simply put: music is not something that you do as a career.

I've met a decent amount of people in the states who pursue music pretty seriously- playing all kinds of gigs, going on tours, getting their records produced by dudes who've worked with some huge names. And from multiple different music genres/scenes to boot.

Guess what: all of them have day jobs!

The fact is that unless you're in the top 0.01% of musicians, you're not gonna make enough to pay the bills.

Do it because you enjoy it, and not with the intention of making any kind of money out of it.

When I say this I don't mean to discourage you from practicing your instrument, in fact I strongly recommend you pick it up to enjoy the experience of crafting songs and melodies that are entirely your own, or enjoying the process of working with a tight-knit unit in the context of a band.

Only as I said, do it for the enjoyment of the experience itself, and not with the intention of making it into a career.

Edit: I assumed that the question was addressed with respect to earning a living as a musician, and not in some other kind of function within the music production process or something else, if I assumed wrong feel free to clarify.

Post: #164

(05-12-2017 11:08 AM)TheWhiteWolf Wrote:  I really want to get into the music business as i feel it would give me purpose in my life. I can play the guitar somewhat well but I feel I'd be out class by the people who have had years of experience. I was wondering it has anyone had any success starting a music career in their twenties. I'm willing to put in the time and effort. As I'm just going to school and have no job right now so I can practice for a couple hours every day.

Pursuing art as a career always has been and always will be a huge gamble. I know a few people who make a living off of music, and they aren't rich or doing super well. They just make enough to pay bills and eat while giving guitar lessons and being a session musician and/or playing in cover bands.

It's not a reliable career path is what I'm saying.

Work a normal job and pursue your passion on the side. Things may workout where you go somewhere with your music and you can quit your day job but it's something you will need to build upon over time. This is especially true for literally pursuing it as an artists trying to make money off of your material.

More tangible ways to make money off of music is by teaching lessons, working in production, joining a sort of orchestra or house band that has a regular schedule of payed gigs, etc.

Post: #165

I'll echo what's already been said by the others in response to TWW's post. But I'll add that if you want to do it to 'give your life meaning' you may not find it to be that. Hell you may not find ANYTHING to be that. People pursue their passions because they have a calling to do so, not because they are looking for a calling. Just my two cents. Don't expect any one pursuit to give your life meaning, because even if it does, it can all fall through / be taken from you in an instant. Diversify, yo.

Post: #166

(05-12-2017 06:10 PM)Rigsby Wrote:  snip

These posts had me really thinking. Surely Ol' Rigsby's being a bit pessimistic here. I mean, I understand that popular music is shit, but music dead altogether? Surely not...

I have a social media account just to keep up with bands that I like and to promote my own. As a result I've got a news feed filled with musicians and promoters - so there's always a recording going on, or a gig this weekend, or a new release coming up.

I rehearse with a bunch of musos once a week and play at a club monthly, with other gigs and jam sessions in between. Mates call me up to talk music, or email me a rough copy of a song they're working on to see what I think.

I hang out in threads like this one.

I suppose that really though I've just built myself a little bubble, where music is thriving. But it's nothing like the real world overall. Out there people listen to absolute shit and don't care, because they just don't care. I go to gigs of 30 to 50 people. My little bubble probably only has a few hundred people in it, spread all over the globe. Out of 7 billion.

It's not reality, but I like it here. I think I'm gunna stay.

I think you should build your own little bubble like mine Rigsby, and forget about the mainstream, it's gone to the dogs.

Post: #167

(05-13-2017 01:17 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  

(05-12-2017 11:08 AM)TheWhiteWolf Wrote:  I really want to get into the music business as i feel it would give me purpose in my life. I can play the guitar somewhat well but I feel I'd be out class by the people who have had years of experience. I was wondering it has anyone had any success starting a music career in their twenties. I'm willing to put in the time and effort. As I'm just going to school and have no job right now so I can practice for a couple hours every day.

Pursuing art as a career always has been and always will be a huge gamble. I know a few people who make a living off of music, and they aren't rich or doing super well. They just make enough to pay bills and eat while giving guitar lessons and being a session musician and/or playing in cover bands.

It's not a reliable career path is what I'm saying.

Work a normal job and pursue your passion on the side. Things may workout where you go somewhere with your music and you can quit your day job but it's something you will need to build upon over time. This is especially true for literally pursuing it as an artists trying to make money off of your material.

More tangible ways to make money off of music is by teaching lessons, working in production, joining a sort of orchestra or house band that has a regular schedule of payed gigs, etc.

Best way to get into one of those work situations is the old school method of going to open stage jam nights. That's how I got my current gig. I went to damn near every possible jam night in my area for a year, played my ass off no matter the song, was sociable and I get a phone call from our bass player.

Last year I played about 70 gigs with those guys which took care of my rent/bills.
This year, starting next month, we have about 60 gigs lined up with some room in the calendar.

Admittedly, it's not exactly the rock'n'roll glamour/glitz I envisioned some 15 years ago (we mainly do corporate/private gigs, with a few bar gigs thrown in for good measure. I guess that makes me a corporate rocker?), but I stopped giving a toss about it a few years ago with the rise of Bieber etc.

As far as making original music... I'm hesitant to put it out there, to say the least. The ROI isn't there, and I refuse to hang out with industry people. I've met a few and I was left with the impression they don't care about anything other than the politics/image/scheme/paycheck, which is not cool for a guy with my standards/morals (what's left of them anyway). Which is also sad, 'cause I have a few ideas/concepts I'd like to put out there, but most likely they'd just get lost in the tide, thanks to the marketing machine. I guess the bubble-approach would work the best at this juncture.

We'll see.

But yeah, have a dayjob and do your thing on the side at first.
If it starts really gaining traction, then start thinking about quitting the dayjob.

Post: #168

A lot of my posts in this thread have been rants. So keeping with that tradition, here's what I've learned from my previous band:

-don't compromise on who you play with
-don't play with people who are dweebs
-don't play with people who think the beatles are fucking gods (if anyone in your band EVER compares their sound to the beatles...RUN, DON'T WALK away.)
-don't play with dilettantes who have no artistic integrity and over value their skill
-don't play with guys who are effete little bitches
-don't play with people who can't perform
-don't play with people who claim to have vision but lack any leadership qualities
-don't EVER play with people who think all they need to do is play and that the crowds will just appear
-don't play with people who think that because you guys are on spotify and itunes that anyone gives a fuck
-don't play with people who lack SPIRIT in what they do
-don't play with people who have nothing to offer SOCIALLY (I CANNOT stress this enough)


To the last (two) points, if you wouldn't introduce your bandmate(s) to a group of hot chicks, don't play music with them. If you wouldn't trust them as wingmen, don't play with them. If you wouldn't wanna party with them, don't fucking play in a band with them. DO NOT play music with people who are incapable of creating a FUN environment. If they're always the types "looking for the fun places to be" then they will make HORRIBLE PERFORMERS!

YOUR JOB AS A PERFORMER IS TO CREATE FUN!!!

Musical skill is OVER FUCKING RATED as a factor for a successful band. So few people get this. It's about so much more than that, namely ability to perform, and popularity. I'm not saying you need to be Mr. Cool but you do need to be socially savvy and people have to want to come to SEE YOU, PERSONALLY...AND NOT BECAUSE THEY LIKE YOUR MUSIC BUT BECAUSE THEY LIKE **YOU**.


This is how you START a following. Yes, eventually, you want to attract real fans who don't know you personally. However, as we all know, people are herd animals. Nobody wants to be where nobody else is. You have to cultivate that image of being someone people want to go see, and the way you do that is by having lots of friends who come support. Then you get the image of being the cool musician AND THEN...you attract fans.

Not the other fucking way around.

I tried so hard to drill this into the thick skulls of my former bandmates...but they just didn't get it. To them it was all about "oh but when i get this mix finally right it's gonna blow up on itunes"




Yes, you need a minimum level of skill to function as a musician. But it's far from the only factor, certainly not the most important one.

Post: #169

(05-17-2017 01:54 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  -don't play with people who lack SPIRIT in what they do
-don't play with people who have nothing to offer SOCIALLY (I CANNOT stress this enough)


To the last (two) points, if you wouldn't introduce your bandmate(s) to a group of hot chicks, don't play music with them. If you wouldn't trust them as wingmen, don't play with them. If you wouldn't wanna party with them, don't fucking play in a band with them. DO NOT play music with people who are incapable of creating a FUN environment. If they're always the types "looking for the fun places to be" then they will make HORRIBLE PERFORMERS!

NERD ALERT: I have the same rule for Dungeons and Dragons: if you're not at least 30% as cool as your character, then I know you're going to engage in some game disrupting wankery, that'll undermine any sort of fun to be had. Plus, you'll creep out any chicks that want to play with us.

Quote:-don't play with dilettantes who have no artistic integrity and over value their skill

Could you expand on what you mean by this? To the callow young man, this sounds like "I ain't never going to sell out, maaaaaan!" but I'm pretty sure you're getting at a deeper principle; I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Post: #170

Quote:NERD ALERT: I have the same rule for Dungeons and Dragons: if you're not at least 30% as cool as your character, then I know you're going to engage in some game disrupting wankery, that'll undermine any sort of fun to be had. Plus, you'll creep out any chicks that want to play with us.

The problem as I see it (with the dilettante crowd) is that they think music will serve as a proxy for their status.

"Once I get this band off the ground, chicks'll be all over me!"

Failing to realize that the band guys with chicks all over them already lived that lifestyle before picking up an instrument. Mind you, I'm not saying that there's only one way to be an artist. I'm not saying you have to be a pro womanizer to be a successful musician, you don't. There are a million ways to go about it. But what's important is that it is treated as an artform for personal expression; and in order to accomplish that, you have to actually have something to say...you have to have some personal integrity.

It doesn't have to be a "message" you want to put out in the world (like so many boomer hack musicians singing about saving the rainforest) but you DO have to have an underlying purpose as to why you're doing what you're doing. This, in my opinion, is what separates the true artists from the wankers banging on instruments.

And that purpose should be something other than personal aggrandizement...because believe it or not, people actually see right through that shit.

Quote:Could you expand on what you mean by this? To the callow young man, this sounds like "I ain't never going to sell out, maaaaaan!" but I'm pretty sure you're getting at a deeper principle; I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Remember that scene from Jurrassic Park when Jeff Goldbloom's character was criticizing John Hammond for "packaging it, patenting it, and slapping it on a plastic lunch box" at the first opportunity, without every questioning if it was something he should be doing in the first place?

It's one thing to undertake a form of artistic expression because you feel the need to do so and you have something to share. It's quite another to do it while constantly keeping an eye out for the very first opportunity at cashing in your metaphorical chips. I'm not of the opinion that artists should remain starving. If you're good at what you do and others are drawn to it, I see no problem with making a living at doing what you love. Hell, i'm envious of anyone who can do that. But there's a stark contrast between those who get into it for the wrong reasons and those who do it for the right reasons.

These kids these days have no struggles to sing about. That's why most music (outside of rap) is about whining. They invent their problems to give their art "cred" which is pathetic. Aint nobody is buying it, either.

Not sure if that answers your question, but its the closest I can get to it right now.

Post: #171

Anyone here play mandolin? I'm looking to get into it as a transition to lute. Both use courses rather than normal strings, but the mandolin only has four and is tuned like my preferred instrument, the bass. I feel it'd be a good way to learn the plucking technique on courses, as well as a cheaper instrument, rather than going straight in and buying a lute.

Post: #172

I have had a strum on a mandolin before. I would also like to learn to play it. When I find one for cheap, I'll probably buy it and fiddle with it for a few weeks or months, then put it in the cupboard with my violin, zither, accordion, kazoo, and harmonica. They're cheap enough (especially second hand) that you can buy one just to play around with.
I think they're usually tuned G-D-A-E like a violin though, not E-A-D-G.

Post: #173

I play mandolin. When you say lute, you need to clarify what you mean. Lute is a catch all term for anything that looks vaguely medieval. Could be an octave mandolin, could be a bouzouki, could be something in between. I have a Chinese built instrument here, it's marketed as a bouzouki but strictly speaking it's not, as it has a flat back and I have it strung in unison pairs aDAE

Tex is correct, the mandolin is the reverse of the base in terms of tuning. That's not to say you can't tune it any way you like. All sorts of tunings are popular for the larger bodied instruments I mentioned above.

I would go straight out and buy a 'lute' of some sort if that's what you want to play. String tension on a mandolin is very tight and the fretboard very small. It takes a somewhat different approach than other instruments. You'd need to decide whether you wanted to learn a bluegrass style or a classical/folky style too. Different picks, different right hand technique.

I'd say it's a more logical step from classical/melody guitar to lute rather than mandolin. Just keep your right hand gently anchored on the bridge, totally relaxed and treat the string pairs as if they were a single string. Make a fist, and hold the pick between index finger and thumb that way as that will keep your wrist relaxed which is essential. Don't keep your picking too 'tight' either, let the pick move further than you might think. It will come back in the same time as if you tried to limit it's movement, but allowing it to move will keep tension out of your hand.

Post: #174

As far as I was aware, only two instruments were called lutes. This one from the Middle Ages:



and this one from the renaissance:



But it looks like anything with a neck and strings can be classified as a lute. My mistake. I'd be going for the instrument in the first picture of this post, as the second is rather complex for me. I've got some experience with classical guitar, so I may skip mandolin as you suggested and just save the extra for a lute.

Post: #175

(05-14-2017 06:41 AM)Tex Cruise Wrote:  

(05-12-2017 06:10 PM)Rigsby Wrote:  snip

These posts had me really thinking. Surely Ol' Rigsby's being a bit pessimistic here. I mean, I understand that popular music is shit, but music dead altogether? Surely not...

I have a social media account just to keep up with bands that I like and to promote my own. As a result I've got a news feed filled with musicians and promoters - so there's always a recording going on, or a gig this weekend, or a new release coming up.

I rehearse with a bunch of musos once a week and play at a club monthly, with other gigs and jam sessions in between. Mates call me up to talk music, or email me a rough copy of a song they're working on to see what I think.

I hang out in threads like this one.

I suppose that really though I've just built myself a little bubble, where music is thriving. But it's nothing like the real world overall. Out there people listen to absolute shit and don't care, because they just don't care. I go to gigs of 30 to 50 people. My little bubble probably only has a few hundred people in it, spread all over the globe. Out of 7 billion.

It's not reality, but I like it here. I think I'm gunna stay.

I think you should build your own little bubble like mine Rigsby, and forget about the mainstream, it's gone to the dogs.

Agreed, and this goes along with what I was saying here.

I honestly think the sentiment some people carry that modern music is somehow dead, lifeless, and "over-produce" for mass consumption is a sort of crotchety-old-man cop out because current musical trends are not what you are used to when you grew up listening to music of that era.

Styles have changed and evolved, sure, but it's certainly not dead. There is new material and new ideas being hashed out every day and I feel like there are more people now than ever actually creating music. It's also the best time ever in the history of art for amateur artists to make a name for themselves without having to sell their souls to big-name record companies.