Post: #1

I've been doing some reading on smaller/obscure religions and the Baha'i Faith caught my interest. Here are a list of things I've found that are MY OPINION and what I've discovered so far. Feel free to argue with me after. If there are any Baha'is out there, feel free to correct me.

Pro's:

1.) Their highest body of leadership is a council of men only, no women ever. (Universal House of Justice).

2.) No clergy. All positions of governance are elected. (National & Local levels of governance do include women, but again, have to be elected by their community.)

3.) Divorce Law: A man owes his wife one year of alimony, and has to pay for his children's education. Marital assets are to be divided "equitably", but not "equally".

4.) No Gay Marriage. They've got a lot of flack for that over the years, but have held fast.

5.) Pro-Family. Believers are encouraged to marry and have children.

6.) Working towards making the world a better place as "the old world order collapses".

7.) Don't believe in supporting any political parties, but all Baha'is are obligated to vote. Not supposed to join political protests or parties.

8.) Tithing is optional, not mandatory.

9.) A government's job is to protect it's own citizens and borders.

Neutral:

1.) Men and women are considered equal, but not the same. As in, men have natural abilities and women have a different set of natural abilities.

2.) All religions & races equal in the eyes of God. ("better to worship God through a stone than not at all".) Recognize Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Bhuddism as Major World religions.

3.) Context of the religion is Sh'ite/Sufi Islam, however this leads to #4.

4.) Deeply persecuted by Muslims Governments who feel they are "not muslim" since they believe in not just one, but two prophets after Mohammad. "The Bab" and "Baha'u'llah" - translated at "The Gate" and "The Glory of God".

5.) Encourage inter-racial/creed/clain marriage as the solution to racism & tribalism.

6.) Huge body of scripture, the parts translated into English dwarf the size of all other religious writings combined. Unfortunately, this only represents 5-10% of the work. Want to read the rest? Learn Persian and Classical Arabic at the highest levels.

7.) Not pacifists, but not supposed to be violent either. (Allowed to own weapons for hunting & self defense.) Allowed to join the military, but have to at least ask to be put in non-combat roles.

Con's

1.) Very small ~7-10 million or so believers world wide. Can find a community just about anywhere, but chances are the community is small.

Further Thoughts - Questions?

Their wikipedia page is a good start if anyone wants to read more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith

Post: #2

(04-27-2017 11:35 PM)Tytalus Wrote:  5.) Encourage inter-racial/creed/clain marriage as the solution to racism & tribalism.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #3

But is it true?



I made a short research about this faith too but found it boring and uninteresting. Basically all they are doing is saying - let's be nice to each other. They have some common sense social rules, but no deep insights about the nature man, universe or God except some touchy feely stuff about universal love and similar banalities.

There seems to be no deeper spiritual layer, no original teachings, no practices leading to metaphysical union with divine, no interesting mythology, no great works of art inspired.

Too bland, modern, sterile and boring for my taste.

Finally they say all previous religions hold nuggets of truth and all their sacred texts are Holy and Divenly inspired - since any sane person knows Islam is nothing like that and is just a book made up by Mohammad to conquer the world and get laid - I simply cannot agree with this disgustingly tolerant teaching of theirs.

If I am wrong please enlighten me about some cool stuff this religion has. My internet research and the two Bahai guys I know were not able to reveal anything original or interesting about this religion.

Post: #4

dupe

Post: #5

I had a baha'i boss once and he was without doubt an excellent person, from Iranian descent if I remember correctly. From your post I gather they have a lot of interesting viewpoints, seem to be fairly rational and down to earth. The Sufi background is interesting as well, they practice asceticism and are a force of peace and non-interference in the Islamic world.

I'll read more into it.

Post: #6

Too much mumbo-jumbo bullshit and that is coming from someone who is following a new path that others may call bullshit.

Examples:

"All religions are equal" - major bullshit.
"Encouragement of interracial breeding to eliminate racism?" - major major super-major bullshit. Globalist bullshit.

If you are willing to join a new faith, then it is gotta be near perfect with everything you believe in and not some concocted slightly improved form of an old religion.

Post: #7

(Disclaimer: all the following is just my own opinion. Official Bahai teachings/dogma can only be set by the relevant structures of the Bahai faith).

Some random musings:

I converted to the Bahai faith just over 3 years ago, although I admit that I did mostly for the access to their international network. That said, I find a lot about the faith that is agreeable and I wouldn't have converted if I felt that it wasn't relevant to my spiritual growth.

The Hidden Words has helped me through a lot, especially when my dad committed suicide.

The Bahai faith can seem somewhat confused because Bahaullah's son, Abdul Baha, added liberal elements to the faith that seem to me to be at cross-purposes with the original intent of the faith. So the Bahai faith can seem somewhat schizophrenic on a superficial level. For example, Abdul Baha stressed that woman must work alongside men, while Bahaullah clearly stressed the importance of women to focus on motherhood. Indeed, the only reason given by Bahaullah for educating women is because it makes them better mothers, not so that they can work. But that is my own opinion on the matter.

I'm not going to pretend I'm a very devout Bahai. I attend meetings every now and then and have made good friendships with other Bahais. I try to read the scriptures every day. I don't really participate in a lot of the activities of the local Bahai organization though. I don't feel the need to immerse every aspect of my life into the Bahai organization structure, which is what Bahai's are gently pressured into doing from the moment they join.

The Bahai community is somewhat tolerant of people being imperfect, as long as you are not blatant about it. The Bahai faith stresses continuing improvement, as opposed to being perfect immediately.

It's not correct to say Bahaullah was a prophet. Prophecy as a vehicle for religious revelation ended with Muhammed. Muhammed was the last prophet, and he thus ended the age of Adam, the first eon of human spiritual development. The Bab basically brought in a new spiritual age, where God manifests Himself into his chosen vessels, that being the Bab and Bahaullah. Therefore they are 'manifestations' of God, not 'prophets', although this is mostly a technical distinction. Basically, it means that the Manifestations of God in this age are free to reveal their true nature, whereas in previous times the Manifestations of God had to cloud their true nature by revealing themselves as messengers, prophets, or relatives of God. The distortion was chosen based on circumstances - Jesus chose to reveal himself as a 'son' of God, whereas Muhammed chose to be a 'messenger/prophet'. This was easier than revealing the full extent of the truth.

Anyway, if investigating the Bahai faith, I'd recommend starting with reading the Hidden Words. It's basically a summary of the entire religion's thought process.

Post: #8

(04-28-2017 07:50 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  I converted to the Bahai faith just over 3 years ago, although I admit that I did mostly for the access to their international network. That said, I find a lot about the faith that is agreeable and I wouldn't have converted if I felt that it wasn't relevant to my spiritual growth.

So what does Bahaism offer? Salvation or enlightment? What is path to this prize in bahaism?

Post: #9

Bahai is another fake religion. I researched it HEAVILY a few years ago.

I'm too intelligent to believe in mythology.

Post: #10

From what I have read he Baha'i Faith contends that it is *the* religion for this day and age. That God periodically sends messengers that fulfill the prophecies of old.

Any summary of any religion can seem banal. I'm sure I could make a dry summary of any religion so my apologies for that.

That said while interracial marriage is encouraged the only direct piece of advice I have found on in selecting a marriage partner is "find someone who is pleasing to thee". Different races aren't pleasing to You? Don't marry them.

From what I have read the Baha'i Faith offers both salvation and enlightenment, as well as a compelling vision for world transformation into a better place.

Post: #11

(04-28-2017 12:30 PM)Tytalus Wrote:  From what I have read he Baha'i Faith contends that it is *the* religion for this day and age. That God periodically sends messengers that fulfill the prophecies of old.

Does Bahai contend then that there will be further messengers from God that could make current Bahai faith obsolete or they are another group that insists that their revelation is the last one - perfect and everlasting?

(04-28-2017 12:30 PM)Tytalus Wrote:  From what I have read the Baha'i Faith offers both salvation and enlightenment, as well as a compelling vision for world transformation into a better place.

Why does man need salvation in Bahai faith?

What does enlightenment looks like and what is path to it?

What would better world look like? Who should pay for this better world?

Post: #12

I'm pleasantly surprised to see that Bahai is socially conservative, at least somewhat, and demands something out of you. I always thought it was one of those hippie-friendly religions like Buddhism.

The religious indifferentism thing is a red flag to me, though - it's a main reason I stayed away from the Freemasons (a friend of a friend tried to get me interested in joining them).

Post: #13

(04-28-2017 09:59 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(04-28-2017 07:50 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  I converted to the Bahai faith just over 3 years ago, although I admit that I did mostly for the access to their international network. That said, I find a lot about the faith that is agreeable and I wouldn't have converted if I felt that it wasn't relevant to my spiritual growth.

So what does Bahaism offer? Salvation or enlightment? What is path to this prize in bahaism?

I hesitate to give an answer to this, and there are probably as many answers to this question as there are Bahais.

But I'd say:

The Bahai faith offers toil, sacrifice, pain, hardship and perpetual spiritual struggle. It is not for people who want to be comfortable.

Hidden Words Wrote:My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy. Hasten thereunto that thou mayest become an eternal light and an immortal spirit. This is My command unto thee, do thou observe it.

Note that God commands us to embrace calamity.

The path to this prize of calamity, fire and vengeance, is through the complying with the Laws of God.

Words of Wisdom Wrote:
The essence of religion is to testify unto that which the Lord hath revealed, and follow that which He hath ordained in His mighty Book.

Post: #14

(04-28-2017 03:47 PM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  

(04-28-2017 09:59 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(04-28-2017 07:50 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  I converted to the Bahai faith just over 3 years ago, although I admit that I did mostly for the access to their international network. That said, I find a lot about the faith that is agreeable and I wouldn't have converted if I felt that it wasn't relevant to my spiritual growth.

So what does Bahaism offer? Salvation or enlightment? What is path to this prize in bahaism?

I hesitate to give an answer to this, and there are probably as many answers to this question as there are Bahais.

But I'd say:

The Bahai faith offers toil, sacrifice, pain, hardship and perpetual spiritual struggle. It is not for people who want to be comfortable.

Hidden Words Wrote:My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy. Hasten thereunto that thou mayest become an eternal light and an immortal spirit. This is My command unto thee, do thou observe it.

Note that God commands us to embrace calamity.

The path to this prize of calamity, fire and vengeance, is through the complying with the Laws of God.

Words of Wisdom Wrote:
The essence of religion is to testify unto that which the Lord hath revealed, and follow that which He hath ordained in His mighty Book.

This is why I am Sceptical about Bahai - they seem to avoid answering this simple question.

I will try once more by giving examples:

In Judaism a jew pursues the observance of the Mitzwoth because God has made a covenant with his ancestors and has promised to send a Messiah who will make his nation to rule the world as chosen nation.

In Christianity a believer pursues salvation from original sin and sins committed in life trough a Savior who has defeated Death which is the wages of sin.

In Islam a believer pursues Paradise and seeks to avoid Hell because Allah hates unbelievers but is merciful to believers(although he is a great deceiver).

In Buddhism a believer pursues enlightenment to see trough Maya and then he seeks Nirvana because Samsara is never ending suffering.

In Hinduism a believer pursues Moksha to unite with Brahman and escape Samsara.

Now in Bahai faith - a believer seeks what and why???? And trough what means?

Post: #15

(04-29-2017 12:06 AM)Mage Wrote:  This is why I am Sceptical about Bahai - they seem to avoid answering this simple question.

I will try once more by giving examples:

In Judaism a jew pursues the observance of the Mitzwoth because God has made a covenant with his ancestors and has promised to send a Messiah who will make his nation to rule the world as chosen nation.

In Christianity a believer pursues salvation from original sin and sins committed in life trough a Savior who has defeated Death which is the wages of sin.

In Islam a believer pursues Paradise and seeks to avoid Hell because Allah hates unbelievers but is merciful to believers(although he is a great deceiver).

In Buddhism a believer pursues enlightenment to see trough Maya and then he seeks Nirvana because Samsara is never ending suffering.

In Hinduism a believer pursues Moksha to unite with Brahman and escape Samsara.

Now in Bahai faith - a believer seeks what and why????

All the examples are from the Age of Adam, which is now over.

In the Adamic age, religious founders had to give simple messages to simple people. Anything more than that would have been rejected, because most people were not cognitively equipped to deal with more.

We are now in a new age that reguires a thoughtful approach to dealing with complexity. There are no simple, easy, one-line answers anymore. It's like you are asking me to use simple arithmetic to solve a calculus problem. It can't be done.

But you are right to be sceptical, and you should continue asking questions and learning more about things.

Post: #16

(04-29-2017 12:23 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  

(04-29-2017 12:06 AM)Mage Wrote:  This is why I am Sceptical about Bahai - they seem to avoid answering this simple question.

I will try once more by giving examples:

In Judaism a jew pursues the observance of the Mitzwoth because God has made a covenant with his ancestors and has promised to send a Messiah who will make his nation to rule the world as chosen nation.

In Christianity a believer pursues salvation from original sin and sins committed in life trough a Savior who has defeated Death which is the wages of sin.

In Islam a believer pursues Paradise and seeks to avoid Hell because Allah hates unbelievers but is merciful to believers(although he is a great deceiver).

In Buddhism a believer pursues enlightenment to see trough Maya and then he seeks Nirvana because Samsara is never ending suffering.

In Hinduism a believer pursues Moksha to unite with Brahman and escape Samsara.

Now in Bahai faith - a believer seeks what and why????

All the examples are from the Age of Adam, which is now over.

In the Adamic age, religious founders had to give simple messages to simple people. Anything more than that would have been rejected, because most people were not cognitively equipped to deal with more.

We are now in a new age that reguires a thoughtful approach to dealing with complexity. There are no simple, easy, one-line answers anymore. It's like you are asking me to use simple arithmetic to solve a calculus problem. It can't be done.

But you are right to be sceptical, and you should continue asking questions and learning more about things.

Unless you provide an answer, I don't care how long or difficult - I will assume that you hide a lack of answer under these pretexts of them being difficult and that Bahaism is an empty shell of a religion - like a club for people to mingle and feel good about themselves, without any deeper meaning.

Post: #17

Nah - Mage is correct.

A mix between salvation or enlightenment does not make much sense. They probably claim that you have to accept the Bahai path as well as reach enlightenment.

Paths that teach enlightenment are usually most about self-responsibility and self-realization. You have the support of the religion/spiritual path as a guideline to reach that enlightenment.

To be honest - the Baha'i seem to have been founded by an offshoot guy from the Sufi spiritual religion who had some spiritual experiences and tried to create his own. But to me it seems that their universal appeal to claim that ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL AND VALID is just globalist propaganda or has been co-opted by them:



Really? You are going to combine Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism under one banner?

Quote: Inclusive in their beliefs and under their umbrella are all the major religions of the world "Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Indigenous, Buddhism, Baha'i, Sikhism, Taoism, Jainism, Pagan/Wicca, Unitarian and Hinduism". Baha'is view the world's major religions as a part of a single, progressive process through which God reveals His will to humanity.


Baha'u'llah (1817-1892), the Founder of the Baha'i Faith, is recognized by Bahá'ís as the most recent in a line of Divine Messengers that includes Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Christ and Muhammad.

Uh - Rumi, St. Francis, Jesus, Buddha, Milarepa, Zoroaster = saints at the least
Mohammed, Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Genghis Khan = not saints, founders and war leaders

We could differ about Abraham and Moses, but those guys were certainly closer to the saint route, since back in their day the prevalent religions had human sacrifice and zero morals as their guideline, so the 10 commandments were certainly an enormous improvement on that.

http://www.nwotoday.com/agenda/the-unite...ed-nations

Quote:The Baha’i Faith was Granted Consultative Status with the UN Economic and Social Council

In 1970 allowing for a greater degree of interaction with the Council and its subsidiary bodies. Since then they have also been granted consultative status with the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF), and relationships with the many UN bodies have deepened and expanded over the years to include the World Health Organization, the United Nations Environment Programme, UNIFEM and many other religious, environmental and social programs within the UN.

The UN is an absolutely evil privately owned organization that is a wolf in sheep clothing.

Of course they are going to promote a pan-religious path like Baha'i, because it fits into their bullshit globalist narrative:



Yeah - with science like promoted today it is indeed more a belief-system than a system of factual observance.

Quote:They Refer to the Organized Religions of Today as “stuff of history ”

and claim that these religions of exclusivity, intolerance, and perversions of truth are the root of all evil and the cause for all of the world’s social, political, and economic ills. They blame the resurgence of “fanatical religious fervor ” occurring across the globe for what they call a “dying convulsion that is undermining the spiritual values which are conducive to the unity of mankind”.


The Baha’i faith sees the United Nations as the vessel by which the unifying of the world’s religions into one faith will come to fruition. Their plan for the future of our world and the role of the United Nations and a regionalized world, are an eerily complete and detailed picture of Bible prophesy. It calls for no less than the reconstruction and the demilitarization of the whole civilized world and they also promote a redistribution of wealth and a communist system of government that would be able to bring about this leveling of the playing field.

Yes - I expect them to ban most major religions after WWIII and pan-religious organizations like this will be promoted.

There are better paths out there with real experiences offered on the path to enlightenment - all without the pandering to globalist propaganda under various UMBRELLA ORGANISATIONS that ultimately seem to serve the same one-eyed-pyramid.

Post: #18

Zelcorpion - it has been my impression also about Bahai that it was started by some secret agency - British Intelligence or whtever they had in place of CIA back then - something to promote McChurch spirituality and to end religious identities and conflicts.

I first hear about UN being privately owned. Who owns UN?

Post: #19

(04-29-2017 12:33 AM)Mage Wrote:  Unless you provide an answer, I don't care how long or difficult - I will assume that you hide a lack of answer under these pretexts of them being difficult and that Bahaism is an empty shell of a religion - like a club for people to mingle and feel good about themselves, without any deeper meaning.

That's okay. I'm not trying to convert you. I'm also not inclined to religious debate.

I was just sharing some thoughts.

Post: #20

(04-29-2017 03:42 AM)Mage Wrote:  Zelcorpion - it has been my impression also about Bahai that it was started by some secret agency - British Intelligence or whtever they had in place of CIA back then - something to promote McChurch spirituality and to end religious identities and conflicts.

I first hear about UN being privately owned. Who owns UN?

Back when they started the League of Nations ownership was easier.

As with the private central banks who own the FED - you won't get ownership disclosure, but the Rockefellers donated the land in New York to erect the UN building there. That should give you a hint.

As for Baha'i being founded by intelligence agencies. They normally don't do that. It is easier to co-opt and take over after it has gained some momentum. It seems to me that they did that. The guided well the US Christian churches via the Council of Churches - also Rockefeller funded.

Religions and paths who want to be free from influence have to be UTTERLY HIERARCHY DEPENDENT. One man at the top decides and he selects the next leader after him. Otherwise a million directions splinter off or you get taken over by the Big Boys. A lack of ultimate hierarchy is not a plus - it is a sign of weakness.

Islam for example has also more or less a lack of top-down hierarchy, but they have the Quran and Hadiths which are a violent shit-show, so anyone trying to reform that would have to eliminate their basic holy texts dictated virtually by their God.

Post: #21

Also I might add - anyone trying Baha'i for spiritual reasons and doing some of their undoubtedly available meditation/spiritual exercises - may experience actual experiences. Those experiences are nothing exclusive to the Baha'i. Mystics of all religions have been having those regardless whether their religion was terrible or more divine. That is why St. Francis, Teresa of Avila, Tibet's Milarepa and Rumi speak the same language. Any God seeker and mystic recognizes the vibrationary pattern and truth. We also see the difference between a truly spiritual man and a mere intellectual or a psychopath who hides in pretty words.

Honestly an advanced society could probably even measure that because vibration of that sort cannot be hidden, but this would really have to be advanced (beyond galactic space exploration advanced in my opinion).

Either way - we are all on different paths to what I consider the same source. If Baha'i helps you, then enjoy. I also mean no disrespect when I say things in a rough way - sometimes my mind gets ahead of me.

I personally follow more the path similar to this guy:


https://www.amazon.com/Road-Taken-His-Th...bc?ie=UTF8

Post: #22

Very interesting discussion and I unfortunately don't have the time to answer all of the questions, as to answer them properly I need to do more research. At some point after I finish defending my doctorate I'd like to come back and answer them.

The Baha'i Faith was founded in 1863 so I believe it is too far back to be the creation of the CIA or the British.

A question though: What is wrong with religions coexisting peacefully? Is that not a worthy goal?

As for the Baha'I Faith and Islam from what I have read the general belief is (1) that the meaning and intent of the Quran has been completely perverted by its believers. (2) That in the future Islam will be the only modern religion to be completely abandoned and dissappear.

Post: #23

(04-29-2017 03:52 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  Religions and paths who want to be free from influence have to be UTTERLY HIERARCHY DEPENDENT. One man at the top decides and he selects the next leader after him. Otherwise a million directions splinter off or you get taken over by the Big Boys. A lack of ultimate hierarchy is not a plus - it is a sign of weakness.

Catholicism is hierarchical and despite that the current pope is a globalist SJW.

I would argue that on the contrary - decentralization helps to preserve the truth - there is no central authority to rewrite the texts, nobody to declare truth seekers as heretics, nobody to amass army of zealots.

From this reason I look at Hinduism based teachings more and more. Each particular Guru or Swami may have flaws but on overall the religion is so decentralized that the core message survives any authoritarian coup and history rewrite.

Post: #24

(04-30-2017 12:25 PM)Mage Wrote:  

(04-29-2017 03:52 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  Religions and paths who want to be free from influence have to be UTTERLY HIERARCHY DEPENDENT. One man at the top decides and he selects the next leader after him. Otherwise a million directions splinter off or you get taken over by the Big Boys. A lack of ultimate hierarchy is not a plus - it is a sign of weakness.

Catholicism is hierarchical and despite that the current pope is a globalist SJW.

I would argue that on the contrary - decentralization helps to preserve the truth - there is no central authority to rewrite the texts, nobody to declare truth seekers as heretics, nobody to amass army of zealots.

From this reason I look at Hinduism based teachings more and more. Each particular Guru or Swami may have flaws but on overall the religion is so decentralized that the core message survives any authoritarian coup and history rewrite.

Catholicism looks hierarchial. The reality is somewhat different, mainly because a Pope can't appoint his successor. Popes can be and have been deposed before. Real power in the institution rests with its bureaucracy and the college of cardinals, if anyone. For a Pope to seriously affect Catholicism he basically has to have the curia onside: this is the one reason Francis hasn't completed broken the Catholic Church, fucked up though it appears.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #25

(04-30-2017 12:25 PM)Mage Wrote:  

(04-29-2017 03:52 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  Religions and paths who want to be free from influence have to be UTTERLY HIERARCHY DEPENDENT. One man at the top decides and he selects the next leader after him. Otherwise a million directions splinter off or you get taken over by the Big Boys. A lack of ultimate hierarchy is not a plus - it is a sign of weakness.

Catholicism is hierarchical and despite that the current pope is a globalist SJW.

I would argue that on the contrary - decentralization helps to preserve the truth - there is no central authority to rewrite the texts, nobody to declare truth seekers as heretics, nobody to amass army of zealots.

From this reason I look at Hinduism based teachings more and more. Each particular Guru or Swami may have flaws but on overall the religion is so decentralized that the core message survives any authoritarian coup and history rewrite.

Common misconception = hierarchy of Stalinism is bad, thus all hierarchies bad.

No - what I mean of course is a hierarchy that cannot be taken over, lobbied or bought. The Catholic church has long been influenced by money - popes were appointed out of wealthy families. Now they seem to be taken out of globalist SJW circles.

If for example the Catholic church had opted to elect St. Francis of Assissi or Padre Pio as his pope and also decided for Padre Pio to pick his successor - as Mage notes, then such an organisation is very strong.

Currently only a few minor spiritual path have such systems of succession in place and are impervious to ambition driven men who rise through to the top by sheer mental willpower or cash.