Post: #1

1) Beginning: Went out with a girl for ice cream. She's Austrian if that is helpful in any way. Sat down on a bench and started to kino but girl said she wanted to take a walk so we went to the park.

2) Middle: At the park despite her objections of sitting I strongly encouraged her to sit on the bench so we did but she wasn't very receptive to kino. Just assumed attraction the whole time.

3) Speeding up: Then we decided to get drinks at a rooftop bar. While walking to the bar I escalted kino by gradually touching her back, arms etc. and tried linking arms. First time she rejected linking arms. Second time I playfully linked my arm in hers anyway to which she unlinked after about 10 sec.

4) The End: She said she wanted to show me a video earlier in the night so I basically walked back with her to her room using that as an excuse and she didn't put up any opposition at all which I saw as a green light. Almost there.

After watching a few videos we started chatting a bit more than watching and I gradually moved closer to her while escalating physically.

Whenever we sat next to each other anywhere she'd always slowly inch away from me but I wasn't overly concerned. It was no different in her room. During the convo the only thing I could think of that might have stopped her getting intimate was when she mentioned there was a guy back in Austria she felt sad about breaking up with because she decided to travel overseas and she'd see what happens when she returns. She is in Australia (where I live) for a year.

After stroking her hair a few times and getting a smile I decided to go for the kiss. Because her head was turned firmly away from mine I gently put my hand under her chin to turn it towards me but she resisted turning while saying "no" softly in a tone that sounded weak. In between conversation I tried turning her chin a few more times which she said "no" again until about 4am when she declared firmly I really had to leave and she was tired. Fair enough lol. i think towards the end she was slightly annoyed at me but I didn't want to have any regrets not pushing hard enough.

She has mentioned in the past that she'd like to go to a particular Austrian Restaurant (which I'm trying to avoid as I'm not confident with dinner dates) and that she really wants to go to a club as opposed to a pub/bar so I was thinking go clubbing briefly Sunday Night and get her back to my place (we live in the same apartment block) and try again??

What would you guys do? There's a lot more detail but I thought these were the main points. My kino game isn't the strongetst but it was there - maybe I should have been more aggressive with kino when we were sitting down initially having ice cream (ie cupping my hand around her ass so she couldn't wriggle away). Happy to elaborate if needed. Thanks.

Post: #2

> try again??

Yes, but reduce your emotional and mental investment in this girl. And don't do the dinner date if you're not comfortable doing so. Also avoid talking about her ex or any of her past flings/fucks.

She's not currently as into you as you're into her, so it's best to pull back and take it easy. Put her on the backburner and pursue other tail in the meantime.

And given the chance, fuck her in the ass. That'll teach her a lesson for holding out!

Post: #3

Following those events, do not take her anywhere until you got something from her. She denied you even a kiss when you guys were alone, so she doesn't give a shit about people - and you should do the same to her. Next.

Post: #4

Next

Post: #5

You're stressing so much about this kino thing. I would meet up next time, and do drinks to a nearby pub/bar where you live. Have a bottle of rosé both of you and focus on fun.

I'm sure the kino won't work if you're coming on too strong and rushing things out. This is an extreme turnoff and makes you look thirsty as fuck, the next thing she would recommend is a cold ice sprite for you instead of alcohol.

To wrap this up and according to your writing, this chick is a bit shy and shall require at least two meetings before the bang. Get with her next time, have a couple of drinks involved,make her feel enjoy the night,and avoid this kino shit until the very end of the night. She would've thought earlier how come he's not touching me like the last time. The hamster will spin a bit faster than usual and she will initiate the touching to which you should reciprocate by remaining aloof. (As if this happens to you the whole time).

Needless to say, if you played it well and you're not getting at least a makeout, you should seriously consider moving on to a new prospect.

Post: #6

You are going for kino before you have build the comfort/attraction.

You can't just kino a random girl on the street, you need to go through the comfort/attraction phase with any girl before escalating.

See again, double down on having fun, demonstrating value, be less engaged and outcome dependant.

If you can not get the attraction phase right, Kino will always fail.

Do not be afraid to next if its all too hard, and taking too much effort. She may not be into you, but using you for validation/emotional needs or attention.

Post: #7

(03-25-2017 07:57 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  You are going for kino before you have build the comfort/attraction.

You can't just kino a random girl on the street, you need to go through the comfort/attraction phase with any girl before escalating.

See again, double down on having fun, demonstrating value, be less engaged and outcome dependant.

If you can not get the attraction phase right, Kino will always fail.

Do not be afraid to next if its all too hard, and taking too much effort. She may not be into you, but using you for validation/emotional needs or attention.

Thanks for the advice! I've known her for about a month and we've done group things together that's how I know her.

Post: #8

When in doubt, whip it out.

Post: #9

The guys gave you some good advise about make the comfort phase before the kino. You saw it shen she didn't want to be very close to you.

In addition, in the same conversation you tried to turn her cheek more times. I wouldn't do that. If nothing changed the result is going to be the same. You need to change the mood, the venue, the conversation. when this happens I use to take her to dance, laugh, drink, check her body language, drink more, dance, get close to the ear, bite, whisper, then the quick kiss, then long kiss, then apt then .....

Post: #10

(03-25-2017 09:16 PM)Chowder Head Wrote:  When in doubt, whip it out.

hahaha what???

Post: #11

(03-25-2017 07:57 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  You are going for kino before you have build the comfort/attraction.

You can't just kino a random girl on the street, you need to go through the comfort/attraction phase with any girl before escalating.

See again, double down on having fun, demonstrating value, be less engaged and outcome dependant.

If you can not get the attraction phase right, Kino will always fail.

Do not be afraid to next if its all too hard, and taking too much effort. She may not be into you, but using you for validation/emotional needs or attention.

When you talk about comfort do you mean talking about common interests, emotional/meaningful topics (to her) etc.? I feel like we've already done that in the past. I've known her for a month from doing things together in a group.

Post: #12

(03-25-2017 09:37 PM)crispytaco Wrote:  The guys gave you some good advise about make the comfort phase before the kino. You saw it shen she didn't want to be very close to you.

In addition, in the same conversation you tried to turn her cheek more times. I wouldn't do that. If nothing changed the result is going to be the same. You need to change the mood, the venue, the conversation. when this happens I use to take her to dance, laugh, drink, check her body language, drink more, dance, get close to the ear, bite, whisper, then the quick kiss, then long kiss, then apt then .....

That's a great point you made thanks. I do that for other things in my life why not an interaction with a girl. How long would you keep trying in a night? I went till 4am when I probably should have cut earlier lol

Post: #13

She just isn't that into you.

Next and forget. Sorry bro.

Post: #14

Note: the advice below is based on a chat I had with Sonderho in relation to this prospect and his background.

==========================================

Sonderho,

As you can see this forum is a great resource and you got some good advice from several posters, including Euphoric_Breeze, RatInTheWoods, and Crispytaco. Here are some more suggestions for you to consider.

Behavioural-social

{1} Without delay, get in touch with some local players and go to the next meetup as per my PM [1]. Once you make contact and connect with a couple of local seducers-in-training, head out to the clubs together at least once per week. Work on building your local crew.

Likewise, keep up the incidental approaching, make small talk everywhere, and add value to your social circles where possible.

{2} As you've just passed the entry point in your pickup career so to speak, it's important to lower your standards for who you approach. To be frank, you simply don't have enough experience to be picky. Don't fall into the pride-driven trap of rejecting girls before they can reject you or justifying a non-approach because the chick was "only a 6". After all, you gotta crawl before you can walk.

Some pointers for now:

a. Go easy on jerkin the gherkin for a while and see where it takes you. Get motivated! [2]
b. For now, lower your expectations about banging "real hotties" and just go for experience.
c. Don't do spam approaches but rather persist as far as you can with each chick (while being internally outcome independent and non-needy).
d. Physically escalate, step-by-step, with any girl that is receptive and bangable.
e. You don't owe a woman an ongoing relationship just because you slept together, however this doesn't give you an excuse to lead anyone on. Don't promise what you can't deliver and keep that good karma flowing.

Several caveats follow:

- Banging unattractive women is not recommended. Please, please, no land whales. You don't wanna end up having an existential crisis that leads to 4 days wondering the desert [3].
- Putting up with disrespect or supplicating just to get laid is lame, reduces your self-regard, and makes things worse for the rest of us. As a man, having clear standards is important across all aspects of life for your own integrity, and there are more than enough self-obsessed, arrogant brats in the world already as a result of extreme thirst from social media simps and other losers.
- Don't be needy in the bedroom. If you gotta jerk it to stop being desperately thirsty, then jerk it.
- Banging young nubile women is one of the greatest pleasures of being in your 20's, however notch-chasing is ultimately pointless [4]. In the longer-term, enjoying time with women you really like will lead to a much more sustained sense of satisfaction.

{3} Make sure you spend more time taking action rather than reading about game.

{4} Write up your library lay so you can reflect on everything you did well. Moving forward, maintain a private journal and note some key lessons that you learn from each night out, and post up the most noteworthy encounters. To maximise your learning and feedback, take note of some tips on report writing [5].

Cognitive-emotional

Like me, you have an active mind which can be both a blessing or a hindrance depending on the context. For instance, it's an asset in our respective professions but can lead to paralysis-by-analysis in seduction. With this in mind, the following tips should be helpful for you:

{5} Stay in the moment and pay attention to how the woman responds to you as opposed to obeying some rules you read. Focus on the present when you're with a woman and save the analysis for afterwards. Similarly, keep it simple; take stock of the next step only, rather than trying to plan 10 steps ahead.

{6} Reward yourself for any small gains and savour the progress no matter how incremental. Focus on the positives, and before you go to sleep each night, write down 3 things you are grateful for in a gratitude diary [6].

{7} Be patient and gentle with yourself; self-mastery is a marathon not a sprint [7]. Success with women is a learnable skill, although if you have historical disadvantage with women, it will take massive effort to achieve high-level game.

{8} Take the pressure off yourself to get laid and, instead, focus on making the process of meeting people enjoyable. More than anything else, have FUN. Getting into the game can be tough for a rookie, however meeting women should still be pleasurable. If you are not having fun, you need to change it up.

To be blunt you need to chill, seriously, chill with the escalation once you get to the sex location. You wrote "...towards the end she was slightly annoyed at me but I didn't want to have any regrets not pushing hard enough", which indicates that you pushed too hard, made her uncomfortable and turned her off. You are still learning basic social-sexual calibration so, for now, it's best to ease off once you face any resistance. Remember, you can try again later, and it may take several dates to build enough attraction/comfort. It's good that you are taking the necessary risk of having your advances rejected, but you shouldn't be forcing it. Never make a girl feel pressured in the bedroom. Indeed, you want to make the girl desire you.

Here are a few helpful mantras to incorporate some of the above concepts:

- "Get blown or get blown out. Either way I'll have fun going all out".
- "I am gonna escalate as far as I can with every girl I meet, however it's totally fine if they are not keen. Plenty more out there".
- "I enjoy being with women no matter the outcome. If they aren't ready to bang now, that's cool, as I'm never in a rush to get laid".

This prospect

{9} Give her a couple of days in case you bump into her. If you don't see her around, send her a 'ping' text, i.e., offer value without asking for compliance.

Because she's involved in your social circle, play it cool -- VERY cool -- if you do end up meeting again. Keep it fun and light, and don't bring up her resistance. A golden rule of pickup is to never ever show any butthurt. Bounce her around town and let her feel comfortable with your touch, gradually, step-by-step, which will minimise any shocks in the bedroom. Let's save Chowder Head's "When in doubt, whip it out" for a bit later

Now, if you see her and she still isn't keen, be proactive and give her a casual NP-LJBF ("No problem - let's just be friends"). In this case, LJBF should help protect your reputation and increase the chance of gaining other prospects through your shared network. You need to accept that your chances with this chick may be dead in the water. Let her go. And on that note...

{10} Beware the danger of oneitis. Do not plan out some elaborate, speculative strategy with this chick. Just do what you can in simple terms and move on ASAP. Stay busy with your work, study, hobbies, friends, exercise, getting other prospects, and never EVER forget that there are thousands of other bangable girls out there in your city alone.

Links

[1] "Without delay, get in touch with some local players and go to the next meetup" (Dream Medicine - RE: How does one deal with a long dry spell?)
[2] "Go easy on jerkin the gherkin for a while and see where it takes you" (Dream Medicine - RE: NoPorn / NoFap Google Group - For Those Who're Serious)
[3] "You don't wanna end up having an existential crisis that leads to 4 days wondering the desert" (Armogan - RE: What Was Your Worst Post-Nut Depression?)
[4] "in the end notch-chasing is pointless" (Kingmaker Podcast With Roosh V - The Danger Of Hedonic Adaptation)
[5] "take note of some tips on report writing" (Dream Medicine - RE: My Travel Journal)
[6] "write down 3 things you are grateful for in a gratitude diary" (Guriko - RE: The "I am thankful for" thread)
[7] "Be patient and gentle with yourself" (Albert Ellis - forward: Overcoming the Rating Game)

Post: #15

(03-29-2017 12:52 AM)Dream Medicine Wrote:  Note: the advice below is based on a chat I had with Sonderho in relation to this prospect and his background.

==========================================

Sonderho,

As you can see this forum is a great resource and you got some good advice from several posters, including Euphoric_Breeze, RatInTheWoods, and Crispytaco. Here are some more suggestions for you to consider.

Behavioural-social

{1} Without delay, get in touch with some local players and go to the next meetup as per my PM [1]. Once you make contact and connect with a couple of local seducers-in-training, head out to the clubs together at least once per week. Work on building your local crew.

Likewise, keep up the incidental approaching, make small talk everywhere, and add value to your social circles where possible.

{2} As you've just passed the entry point in your pickup career so to speak, it's important to lower your standards for who you approach. To be frank, you simply don't have enough experience to be picky. Don't fall into the pride-driven trap of rejecting girls before they can reject you or justifying a non-approach because the chick was "only a 6". After all, you gotta crawl before you can walk.

Some pointers for now:

a. Go easy on jerkin the gherkin for a while and see where it takes you. Get motivated! [2]
b. For now, lower your expectations about banging "real hotties" and just go for experience.
c. Don't do spam approaches but rather persist as far as you can with each chick (while being internally outcome independent and non-needy).
d. Physically escalate, step-by-step, with any girl that is receptive and bangable.
e. You don't owe a woman an ongoing relationship just because you slept together, however this doesn't give you an excuse to lead anyone on. Don't promise what you can't deliver and keep that good karma flowing.

Several caveats follow:

- Banging unattractive women is not recommended. Please, please, no land whales. You don't wanna end up having an existential crisis that leads to 4 days wondering the desert [3].
- Putting up with disrespect or supplicating just to get laid is lame, reduces your self-regard, and makes things worse for the rest of us. As a man, having clear standards is important across all aspects of life for your own integrity, and there are more than enough self-obsessed, arrogant brats in the world already as a result of extreme thirst from social media simps and other losers.
- Don't be needy in the bedroom. If you gotta jerk it to stop being desperately thirsty, then jerk it.
- Banging young nubile women is one of the greatest pleasures of being in your 20's, however notch-chasing is ultimately pointless [4]. In the longer-term, enjoying time with women you really like will lead to a much more sustained sense of satisfaction.

{3} Make sure you spend more time taking action rather than reading about game.

{4} Write up your library lay so you can reflect on everything you did well. Moving forward, maintain a private journal and note some key lessons that you learn from each night out, and post up the most noteworthy encounters. To maximise your learning and feedback, take note of some tips on report writing [5].

Cognitive-emotional

Like me, you have an active mind which can be both a blessing or a hindrance depending on the context. For instance, it's an asset in our respective professions but can lead to paralysis-by-analysis in seduction. With this in mind, the following tips should be helpful for you:

{5} Stay in the moment and pay attention to how the woman responds to you as opposed to obeying some rules you read. Focus on the present when you're with a woman and save the analysis for afterwards. Similarly, keep it simple; take stock of the next step only, rather than trying to plan 10 steps ahead.

{6} Reward yourself for any small gains and savour the progress no matter how incremental. Focus on the positives, and before you go to sleep each night, write down 3 things you are grateful for in a gratitude diary [6].

{7} Be patient and gentle with yourself; self-mastery is a marathon not a sprint [7]. Success with women is a learnable skill, although if you have historical disadvantage with women, it will take massive effort to achieve high-level game.

{8} Take the pressure off yourself to get laid and, instead, focus on making the process of meeting people enjoyable. More than anything else, have FUN. Getting into the game can be tough for a rookie, however meeting women should still be pleasurable. If you are not having fun, you need to change it up.

To be blunt you need to chill, seriously, chill with the escalation once you get to the sex location. You wrote "...towards the end she was slightly annoyed at me but I didn't want to have any regrets not pushing hard enough", which indicates that you pushed too hard, made her uncomfortable and turned her off. You are still learning basic social-sexual calibration so, for now, it's best to ease off once you face any resistance. Remember, you can try again later, and it may take several dates to build enough attraction/comfort. It's good that you are taking the necessary risk of having your advances rejected, but you shouldn't be forcing it. Never make a girl feel pressured in the bedroom. Indeed, you want to make the girl desire you.

Here are a few helpful mantras to incorporate some of the above concepts:

- "Get blown or get blown out. Either way I'll have fun going all out".
- "I am gonna escalate as far as I can with every girl I meet, however it's totally fine if they are not keen. Plenty more out there".
- "I enjoy being with women no matter the outcome. If they aren't ready to bang now, that's cool, as I'm never in a rush to get laid".

This prospect

{9} Give her a couple of days in case you bump into her. If you don't see her around, send her a 'ping' text, i.e., offer value without asking for compliance.

Because she's involved in your social circle, play it cool -- VERY cool -- if you do end up meeting again. Keep it fun and light, and don't bring up her resistance. A golden rule of pickup is to never ever show any butthurt. Bounce her around town and let her feel comfortable with your touch, gradually, step-by-step, which will minimise any shocks in the bedroom. Let's save Chowder Head's "When in doubt, whip it out" for a bit later

Now, if you see her and she still isn't keen, be proactive and give her a casual NP-LJBF ("No problem - let's just be friends"). In this case, LJBF should help protect your reputation and increase the chance of gaining other prospects through your shared network. You need to accept that your chances with this chick may be dead in the water. Let her go. And on that note...

{10} Beware the danger of oneitis. Do not plan out some elaborate, speculative strategy with this chick. Just do what you can in simple terms and move on ASAP. Stay busy with your work, study, hobbies, friends, exercise, getting other prospects, and never EVER forget that there are thousands of other bangable girls out there in your city alone.

Links

[1] "Without delay, get in touch with some local players and go to the next meetup" (Dream Medicine - RE: How does one deal with a long dry spell?)
[2] "Go easy on jerkin the gherkin for a while and see where it takes you" (Dream Medicine - RE: NoPorn / NoFap Google Group - For Those Who're Serious)
[3] "You don't wanna end up having an existential crisis that leads to 4 days wondering the desert" (Armogan - RE: What Was Your Worst Post-Nut Depression?)
[4] "in the end notch-chasing is pointless" (Kingmaker Podcast With Roosh V - The Danger Of Hedonic Adaptation)
[5] "take note of some tips on report writing" (Dream Medicine - RE: My Travel Journal)
[6] "write down 3 things you are grateful for in a gratitude diary" (Guriko - RE: The "I am thankful for" thread)
[7] "Be patient and gentle with yourself" (Albert Ellis - forward: Overcoming the Rating Game)

Woah. Thank you so much, hands down most comprehensive feedback I've ever received. Gonna reread this a few times (Y)

Post: #16

Hey Dream Medicine,

The more I read your feedback the more I find myself smiling sheepishly about how I could have done things better in the past. Thanks for the advice. I'm going to the next meetup on the website you recommended and got in touch with your mate. Looking forward to meeting some like minded people!

I think I was getting caught up in the rules/tactics/interaction 'milestones' I've studied online and kept trying to stick to them during interactions instead of focusing on making a more genuine human connection.

It's crazy how much I can relate to BetaNoMore's comment in your first link, especially his first one about something intangible that is eventually turning women off. I have literally zero approach anxiety cold approaching now, feel comfortable maintaining conversation with girls and I've had success in getting numbers etc. but have challenges turning it into results (dates).

Gonna continue reading and look forward to incorporating these tips into my life and improving.

Post: #17

(03-24-2017 11:39 PM)jselysianeagle Wrote:  > try again??

Yes, but reduce your emotional and mental investment in this girl. And don't do the dinner date if you're not comfortable doing so. Also avoid talking about her ex or any of her past flings/fucks.

She's not currently as into you as you're into her, so it's best to pull back and take it easy. Put her on the backburner and pursue other tail in the meantime.

And given the chance, fuck her in the ass. That'll teach her a lesson for holding out!

He wants her/any girl too much, yes.
But that doesnt mean he has an emotional investment in her.

If anything he showed a lack of calibration and a lack of adapting to the feedback he was getting from her.

If a girl moves an inch away whenever you get close, thats something to take into account. He kept bulldozing away trying the same thing. A girl who shyly turns her lips away when you go for a kiss is one thing, a girl who keeps sitting away and squatting your hand is another.

(03-25-2017 08:34 AM)Rawmeo Wrote:  Following those events, do not take her anywhere until you got something from her. She denied you even a kiss when you guys were alone, so she doesn't give a shit about people - and you should do the same to her. Next.

She doesnt owe him anything.
Theres nothing in this story that makes her a bad person or that she doesnt give a shit about people.
OP just didnt manage to seduce her that particular night.

He should find out what he did wrong and work on it, and not blame it on this girl's character (not that he did)


sonderho, the rules are very useful. But you have to understand the whole process and not take it as bulletpoints and jump from one to the next.

When ALL your kino attempts were failing throughout the night, that should have let you notice that either there wasnt comfort or attraction. The solution for that wasnt more kino attempts.
If i remember correctly all the "rules" talk about this. Even the more modern videos i see touch on this. For example, testing compliance and if it fails, go back a step. Etc....

Its not the game material that failed, its the robotic appplication of them that did.

But anyway this is very normal at the beginning. Plus the thirst at this stage does come out in the vibe.

Post: #18

(03-29-2017 12:06 PM)Beirut Wrote:  

(03-24-2017 11:39 PM)jselysianeagle Wrote:  > try again??

Yes, but reduce your emotional and mental investment in this girl. And don't do the dinner date if you're not comfortable doing so. Also avoid talking about her ex or any of her past flings/fucks.

She's not currently as into you as you're into her, so it's best to pull back and take it easy. Put her on the backburner and pursue other tail in the meantime.

And given the chance, fuck her in the ass. That'll teach her a lesson for holding out!

He wants her/any girl too much, yes.
But that doesnt mean he has an emotional investment in her.

If anything he showed a lack of calibration and a lack of adapting to the feedback he was getting from her.

If a girl moves an inch away whenever you get close, thats something to take into account. He kept bulldozing away trying the same thing. A girl who shyly turns her lips away when you go for a kiss is one thing, a girl who keeps sitting away and squatting your hand is another.

(03-25-2017 08:34 AM)Rawmeo Wrote:  Following those events, do not take her anywhere until you got something from her. She denied you even a kiss when you guys were alone, so she doesn't give a shit about people - and you should do the same to her. Next.

She doesnt owe him anything.
Theres nothing in this story that makes her a bad person or that she doesnt give a shit about people.
OP just didnt manage to seduce her that particular night.

He should find out what he did wrong and work on it, and not blame it on this girl's character (not that he did)


sonderho, the rules are very useful. But you have to understand the whole process and not take it as bulletpoints and jump from one to the next.

When ALL your kino attempts were failing throughout the night, that should have let you notice that either there wasnt comfort or attraction. The solution for that wasnt more kino attempts.
If i remember correctly all the "rules" talk about this. Even the more modern videos i see touch on this. For example, testing compliance and if it fails, go back a step. Etc....

Its not the game material that failed, its the robotic appplication of them that did.

But anyway this is very normal at the beginning. Plus the thirst at this stage does come out in the vibe.

Thanks Beirut, I saw the date primarily as a process that I had to control rather than enjoying it for what it was. It's almost like I have to find a good balance between being myself and using good game. I think one has to do a lot of acting/self control when you are genuinely thirsty haha

Post: #19

Thats very true. I go through long periods where i dont game/go out much and noticed that when i do go out after, i open girls and everything goes well but it always ends up fizzling out. Then i think back and it seems i talked a bit too much, leaned in, was too eager, etc... even if in my mind i did not care about the outcome.

So when i do pay attention to that its like i mentally slap myself and act extra aloof or lay back.

Theres a lot of stuff that goes on beneath the surface subconsciously that translates into your vibe, and i think practice is the only way to get rid of that.