Post: #101

(03-02-2017 01:47 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 02:00 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:37 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:03 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  ^plenty of construction and other blue collar work is available.

This is a lie.

Sources

http://m.bakingbusiness.com/articles/new...6%7D&cck=1

truck drive shortage

https://hennessysview.com/2017/01/14/ame...t-college/


oil jobs


I can go all day.

All bullshit spin. All of these "shortages" are in reality jobs that do not pay enough given the time and dedication involved.

But the reason there is not enough pay is because there is not enough demand for the services and goods offered, so prices have to stay low.

And the reason demand is so low is because we employ slave labor overseas to give us goods and services for cheap.

Once tariffs go up, producers will be able to raise prices and in turn raise wages to fill in these jobs.

And yes, before anyone says higher prices will collapse the economy; wrong. American cities have PLENTY of cash. The reason the American economy is so weak is because flyover country is suffering, but major cities are booming. The cities are merely sending their cash overseas, once the tariffs go up cash will be sent from the cities into the heartland.

Samseau, this is factually incorrect.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/ill-sen...-pensions/

What makes you say all of the facts presented about blue collar jobs are spin? I employ hundreds of people in construction and facility engineering (all non-college degree jobs) and always have job openings for HVAC Techs and Electricians. - minimum $25/hour plus benefits.

Your analysis of the blue collar job market is wrong from where I am sitting as a successful entrepreneur in the blue collar world.

Post: #102

(03-02-2017 01:45 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  You not only want to make people welfare-dependent (check out some Native reservations to see how that plays out), you want to sterilize them in the bargain.

So in other words you want to snuff them out.

What other devil is going to come along and do them worse than that?

What do you propose as a solution aside from "I'll spit mad game at the girls in HR and MY job will be secure."

Post: #103

(03-02-2017 01:47 PM)Samseau Wrote:  And the reason demand is so low is because we employ slave labor overseas to give us goods and services for cheap.

Once tariffs go up, producers will be able to raise prices and in turn raise wages to fill in these jobs.

And yes, before anyone says higher prices will collapse the economy; wrong. American cities have PLENTY of cash. The reason the American economy is so weak is because flyover country is suffering, but major cities are booming. The cities are merely sending their cash overseas, once the tariffs go up cash will be sent from the cities into the heartland.

When I hear the old guard Republican globalist argument that any tariff increase or interference with "free trade" will hurt common Americans because it will increase the price of imported stuff, the first thought I have is: "what the hell good does it do them to have a cheaper TVs or cars if they don't have jobs? Or if they are an IT worker with 10 years of experience working as a Walmart greeter?"

(03-02-2017 01:50 PM)Samseau Wrote:  A world where everything is made by robots is rather utopian to be honest. Either things will degenerate into brave new world, or a new world of family rearing and settling will occur to fill up the land.

Potentially utopian or dystopian, depending. Really the treatment of the majority of people by those in power all comes down to how much the majority are needed as workers, and the threat of revolt. If both of those factors become pretty much nil, and there hasn't been some serious structural change ... well, I don't want to place bets that the better nature of the oligarchs will cause them to create a utopia. However, undoubtedly there will be a lot of peons with really big smiles on their faces testifying to how wonderful everything is, whenever they are asked. "Don't you love being my body servant?" "Oh yes massah, I loves it, you are so good to me!" (That's not too far from corporate work right now, and the trajectory isn't good.)

Post: #104

(03-02-2017 03:37 PM)Enoch Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 01:47 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 02:00 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:37 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:03 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  ^plenty of construction and other blue collar work is available.

This is a lie.

Sources

http://m.bakingbusiness.com/articles/new...6%7D&cck=1

truck drive shortage

https://hennessysview.com/2017/01/14/ame...t-college/


oil jobs


I can go all day.

All bullshit spin. All of these "shortages" are in reality jobs that do not pay enough given the time and dedication involved.

But the reason there is not enough pay is because there is not enough demand for the services and goods offered, so prices have to stay low.

And the reason demand is so low is because we employ slave labor overseas to give us goods and services for cheap.

Once tariffs go up, producers will be able to raise prices and in turn raise wages to fill in these jobs.

And yes, before anyone says higher prices will collapse the economy; wrong. American cities have PLENTY of cash. The reason the American economy is so weak is because flyover country is suffering, but major cities are booming. The cities are merely sending their cash overseas, once the tariffs go up cash will be sent from the cities into the heartland.

Samseau, this is factually incorrect.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/ill-sen...-pensions/

What makes you say all of the facts presented about blue collar jobs are spin? I employ hundreds of people in construction and facility engineering (all non-college degree jobs) and always have job openings for HVAC Techs and Electricians. - minimum $25/hour plus benefits.

Your analysis of the blue collar job market is wrong from where I am sitting as a successful entrepreneur in the blue collar world.

In a $15 minimum wage world, it's not like $25 per hour is a lot. How much education and/or training do those jobs require? And presumably the job candidates are expected to already have that training ... so they invested their own time and money into the education process. Anyone considering doing that as a career change then is making an investment in the time/money/effort to get themselves the credentials, and HOPING that it gets them a job on the other end, and HOPING that such career lasts long enough and pays well enough over time to be worth the effort. Maybe there is a shortage of HVAC people, then numerous people retrain themselves for that career, then there is a surplus. What happens then? Employers push wages as low as possible, some people end up unemployed and others underpaid, and some of them try something else, probably again at their own expense.

None of that disqualifies the whole idea, but you do have to recognize that for anything that requires any skills/experience where you as the employer aren't providing on the job training, is not a frictionless or risk free move for the workers.

Post: #105

(03-02-2017 03:37 PM)Enoch Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 01:47 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 02:00 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:37 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:03 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  ^plenty of construction and other blue collar work is available.

This is a lie.

Sources

http://m.bakingbusiness.com/articles/new...6%7D&cck=1

truck drive shortage

https://hennessysview.com/2017/01/14/ame...t-college/


oil jobs


I can go all day.

All bullshit spin. All of these "shortages" are in reality jobs that do not pay enough given the time and dedication involved.

But the reason there is not enough pay is because there is not enough demand for the services and goods offered, so prices have to stay low.

And the reason demand is so low is because we employ slave labor overseas to give us goods and services for cheap.

Once tariffs go up, producers will be able to raise prices and in turn raise wages to fill in these jobs.

And yes, before anyone says higher prices will collapse the economy; wrong. American cities have PLENTY of cash. The reason the American economy is so weak is because flyover country is suffering, but major cities are booming. The cities are merely sending their cash overseas, once the tariffs go up cash will be sent from the cities into the heartland.

Samseau, this is factually incorrect.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/ill-sen...-pensions/

What makes you say all of the facts presented about blue collar jobs are spin? I employ hundreds of people in construction and facility engineering (all non-college degree jobs) and always have job openings for HVAC Techs and Electricians. - minimum $25/hour plus benefits.

Your analysis of the blue collar job market is wrong from where I am sitting as a successful entrepreneur in the blue collar world.

Lots if opportunity for HVAC up here in Canada with renovations and Government retooling of buildings and all day kindergarten.

This highlights what I was trying to get at in that there is lots of options for trained blue collar type jobs that need an associate or diploma level of traning with some Certs. Another big one is the lack of building technical inspectors and elevator engineers. Lots of men who are stuck seating balls in kitchens, or went and got a use less BA would be prime for there types of roles but they have fallen out of favour these days. The jobs all pay well with stability also.

Post: #106

(03-02-2017 04:21 PM)Edmund Ironside Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 03:37 PM)Enoch Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 01:47 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 02:00 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:37 PM)Samseau Wrote:  This is a lie.

Sources

http://m.bakingbusiness.com/articles/new...6%7D&cck=1

truck drive shortage

https://hennessysview.com/2017/01/14/ame...t-college/


oil jobs


I can go all day.

All bullshit spin. All of these "shortages" are in reality jobs that do not pay enough given the time and dedication involved.

But the reason there is not enough pay is because there is not enough demand for the services and goods offered, so prices have to stay low.

And the reason demand is so low is because we employ slave labor overseas to give us goods and services for cheap.

Once tariffs go up, producers will be able to raise prices and in turn raise wages to fill in these jobs.

And yes, before anyone says higher prices will collapse the economy; wrong. American cities have PLENTY of cash. The reason the American economy is so weak is because flyover country is suffering, but major cities are booming. The cities are merely sending their cash overseas, once the tariffs go up cash will be sent from the cities into the heartland.

Samseau, this is factually incorrect.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/ill-sen...-pensions/

What makes you say all of the facts presented about blue collar jobs are spin? I employ hundreds of people in construction and facility engineering (all non-college degree jobs) and always have job openings for HVAC Techs and Electricians. - minimum $25/hour plus benefits.

Your analysis of the blue collar job market is wrong from where I am sitting as a successful entrepreneur in the blue collar world.

In a $15 minimum wage world, it's not like $25 per hour is a lot. How much education and/or training do those jobs require? And presumably the job candidates are expected to already have that training ... so they invested their own time and money into the education process. Anyone considering doing that as a career change then is making an investment in the time/money/effort to get themselves the credentials, and HOPING that it gets them a job on the other end, and HOPING that such career lasts long enough and pays well enough over time to be worth the effort. Maybe there is a shortage of HVAC people, then numerous people retrain themselves for that career, then there is a surplus. What happens then? Employers push wages as low as possible, some people end up unemployed and others underpaid, and some of them try something else, probably again at their own expense.

None of that disqualifies the whole idea, but you do have to recognize that for anything that requires any skills/experience where you as the employer aren't providing on the job training, is not a frictionless or risk free move for the workers.

1. Respectfully Ironside you are not aware of how the skilled trades work. As a skilled trades apprentice you GET PAID DURING YOUR APPRENTICESHIP. You take out no debt, either you are at the hall learning (funded by the journeyman) or out working at an apprentice wage as you must work for a certain period of time as an apprentice before you can earn journeyman rates.

2. The minimum wage isn't $15 an hour. $25 / hour plus benefits is a very nice middle class wage outside of major urban areas. Keep in mind the union scale rate in places like NYC is more like $90-$110 an hour for journeyman.

3. If you go into the skilled trades at age 22 you are making 50,000 a year with NO STUDENT DEBT.

Obviously if you have a very high IQ then going to college is great ROI. If you are an average person who gets average test scores spending gobs of money for a B.S. degree at a B.S. university is far inferior to going into the trades. I am not saying a whole bunch of laid off computer programmers should go become HVAC techs. I am saying that for your 50th percentile high school senior the trades represent a better ROI than debt funded B.S. college education.

Post: #107

(03-02-2017 04:28 PM)kosko Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 03:37 PM)Enoch Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 01:47 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 02:00 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:37 PM)Samseau Wrote:  This is a lie.

Sources

http://m.bakingbusiness.com/articles/new...6%7D&cck=1

truck drive shortage

https://hennessysview.com/2017/01/14/ame...t-college/


oil jobs


I can go all day.

All bullshit spin. All of these "shortages" are in reality jobs that do not pay enough given the time and dedication involved.

But the reason there is not enough pay is because there is not enough demand for the services and goods offered, so prices have to stay low.

And the reason demand is so low is because we employ slave labor overseas to give us goods and services for cheap.

Once tariffs go up, producers will be able to raise prices and in turn raise wages to fill in these jobs.

And yes, before anyone says higher prices will collapse the economy; wrong. American cities have PLENTY of cash. The reason the American economy is so weak is because flyover country is suffering, but major cities are booming. The cities are merely sending their cash overseas, once the tariffs go up cash will be sent from the cities into the heartland.

Samseau, this is factually incorrect.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/ill-sen...-pensions/

What makes you say all of the facts presented about blue collar jobs are spin? I employ hundreds of people in construction and facility engineering (all non-college degree jobs) and always have job openings for HVAC Techs and Electricians. - minimum $25/hour plus benefits.

Your analysis of the blue collar job market is wrong from where I am sitting as a successful entrepreneur in the blue collar world.

Lots if opportunity for HVAC up here in Canada with renovations and Government retooling of buildings and all day kindergarten.

This highlights what I was trying to get at in that there is lots of options for trained blue collar type jobs that need an associate or diploma level of traning with some Certs. Another big one is the lack of building technical inspectors and elevator engineers. Lots of men who are stuck seating balls in kitchens, or went and got a use less BA would be prime for there types of roles but they have fallen out of favour these days. The jobs all pay well with stability also.

A buddy of mine graduated from a middle of the road business school and took a sales job at Thyssen Krupp elevator. All the sales guys must become licensed elevator mechanics first. So after college he did a 4 year elevator mechanic apprenticeship. He decided to keep working as an elevator mechanic at $60/ hour rather than trying to grind out sales at 45k plus commission.

Post: #108

(03-02-2017 04:47 PM)Enoch Wrote:  1. Respectfully Ironside you are not aware of how the skilled trades work.

You are absolutely correct, I don't. I appreciate the enlightenment. I did come up with a blue collar background, but the people I was around didn't have apprenticeships or union halls. When I was a teenager I made $5/hr working harder than most people I'm around these days ever worked in their lives.

(03-02-2017 04:47 PM)Enoch Wrote:  Obviously if you have a very high IQ then going to college is great ROI. If you are an average person who gets average test scores spending gobs of money for a B.S. degree at a B.S. university is far inferior to going into the trades. I am not saying a whole bunch of laid off computer programmers should go become HVAC techs. I am saying that for your 50th percentile high school senior the trades represent a better ROI than debt funded B.S. college education.

(03-02-2017 04:50 PM)Enoch Wrote:  A buddy of mine graduated from a middle of the road business school and took a sales job at Thyssen Krupp elevator. All the sales guys must become licensed elevator mechanics first. So after college he did a 4 year elevator mechanic apprenticeship. He decided to keep working as an elevator mechanic at $60/ hour rather than trying to grind out sales at 45k plus commission.

Hell, I scored in the top 1% of every standardized test I ever took, and I have a masters degree (the wrong major though), and compared to where I am now I still probably would have been better off skipping college and becoming an elevator mechanic, from the sound of it. If I was younger I would still be tempted. $60 per hour isn't too much below the highest rate I've ever gotten for IT consulting, and I can't keep steady employment doing that unless I want to spend my life in airports and hotels.

Post: #109

Obvious question is.... exponential population growth and technology putting people out of low skilled work.

What is everyone going to do? How will they eat?

Either the ruling class who gets the benefit of technology shares that with the unemployable, or they will riot and revolt.

Or how else will it work?

Post: #110

(03-02-2017 06:53 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  Obvious question is.... exponential population growth and technology putting people out of low skilled work.

What is everyone going to do? How will they eat?

Either the ruling class who gets the benefit of technology shares that with the unemployable, or they will riot and revolt.

Or how else will it work?

Bread and circuses. Riot police and robots will put down civil unrest. If all else fails, start a meat grinder of a world war.

The elites will never go for basic income. They'd rather send the poor to their deaths in warfare.

Post: #111

(03-02-2017 03:47 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 01:45 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  You not only want to make people welfare-dependent (check out some Native reservations to see how that plays out), you want to sterilize them in the bargain.

So in other words you want to snuff them out.

What other devil is going to come along and do them worse than that?

What do you propose as a solution aside from "I'll spit mad game at the girls in HR and MY job will be secure."

First, think about what you are saying here. The choice is genocide the low-skilled poor or they have to all learn "mad game"?

And what is the track record of welfare's effect on any culture or community?

Second, read about automations or job displacements of the past. Times get tough for some, very tough and bleak in fact like the other guys are pointing out. Most move on to other things. A few see an opportunity and profit. There is no worldwide apocalypse.

Although the last major depression had a world war, so that's something to consider. Obviously none of us want another world war (or most of us don't, I dunno anymore).

Third, I propose that everyone will make their own adjustments, as they always have. I'm not guaranteeing happiness or heaven for all. There is no one solution that fits all; any one of us would be very arrogant to believe we have the answer for millions of other people's lives.

Some people are going to get fucked! No one can propose a solution to alleviate that. For any venture or stage in life.

Some people are going to profit. Most will just continue on, nudged a few degrees off the path they were on, heads down, to a new path.

Approach your life as if nothing is secure; there are degrees of security when you compare one situation to another, but ultimately shit can (and will) happen... and this sometimes works the other way too, with luck.

I'm not saying this as cold comfort. Obviously a guy who just lost his job isn't much helped by hearing "nothing is secure". But I think it's a truth we can agree on.

Post: #112

Not really a big deal if a few people in some shitty takeaway lose their jobs. Auto cars are still some time away.

Let's not forget that the media and the liberals love talking about the new technology with the nerds and millenials. Fact is these things are hard and they are super susceptible to major problems that can have large consequences.

I've seen the new updated McDonalds. It's no big deal. Let's not get carried away this technology will change the world bullshit. I had one guy talking to me once telling me how it's so bad that AI is advancing at this speed and that there will be real AI in my lifetime. I was like fuck that bullshit man, strong AI is so far away we cant even imagine how we'll get there, and we have no roadmap no nothing. But this was so worried about it he tells me he is leaving his work and trying to join Google so he can put a stop to AI research (what?).

All this talk of robots doing this is and that is just the big companies, scientists and media creating talking points to make it look like they have made some real progress.

I mean Google and Tesla have done such great jobs that pretty much every Western person knows of their self-driving cars, yet no one has ever seen one. Fuck worrying about shit that wont affect your life.

Anyways, the dregs and degens in our society have greater issues than worrying about automation.

Post: #113

(03-02-2017 01:45 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  ...
It's not confusing, it's wrong.

I don't accept your premise that joblessness is the prime mover in Ferguson/Baltimore. Prove it.

That's exactly how I feel when I see someone invoking pat answers to save the jobs.

Who are these imaginary people you are debating with that have claimed their ideas are going to bring paradise?

So glib! Yes, why would we even talk about this at all when you have the "only sensible" answer:

You not only want to make people welfare-dependent (check out some Native reservations to see how that plays out), you want to sterilize them in the bargain.

So in other words you want to snuff them out.

What other devil is going to come along and do them worse than that?

I'm not playing "wall of quotes" with you.

I don't have to prove anything to you at all. I don't care whether want to accept my premise.

You want to complain about keeping people on welfare? What's your plan to employ them, and when did you suddenly start giving a crap about them? When it became convenient to use an emotional plea on their behalf garnished with soft accusations of racism against moi?

Again. Less complaints. More solutions.

Post: #114

(03-02-2017 02:50 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  ...
Exactly. I used to hear a similar gripe while on active duty now and then: "I'm a private with three kids and a wife and I can't make ends meet!" Well, uh, is that really the Army's problem you had more kids than you can afford? Get your ass into community college, get a two year degree and apply to become an officer if it's that important. Ditto for people who get a part time gig at Dunkin Donuts and moan because they can't get a mortgage. "Living wage" is just the language of the left used to advance Fabian socialism.

I agree partially. There's a degree of economic fuckery that inflates house prices to keep people in debt slavery to the banks and keep the class below them on the rental treadmill. That bullshit needs to go, although how to manage that without collapsing debt market or first getting assassinated by (((unsympathetic forces))) is beyond me.

If an average family man with a single average full time salary can't afford the mortgage on an average house and the upkeep on an average car then whatever the cause, your society is in decline.

Post: #115

(03-02-2017 09:11 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 03:47 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 01:45 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  You not only want to make people welfare-dependent (check out some Native reservations to see how that plays out), you want to sterilize them in the bargain.

So in other words you want to snuff them out.

What other devil is going to come along and do them worse than that?

What do you propose as a solution aside from "I'll spit mad game at the girls in HR and MY job will be secure."

First, think about what you are saying here. The choice is genocide the low-skilled poor or they have to all learn "mad game"?

And what is the track record of welfare's effect on any culture or community?

...
Although the last major depression had a world war, so that's something to consider. Obviously none of us want another world war (or most of us don't, I dunno anymore).

...

Flippant accusations of genocidal intent are SJW territory. Take a deep breath and try not to get triggered when I say that rounding up Jews and gassing them is not the same as offering people the voluntary choice to be neutered for cash. If you really care so deeply about Pochahontas+co then the procedure can include egg/sperm harvest if the applicant gets their life together and can afford IVF on their own dime later down the line.

Personally I'm still waiting on an explanation of how you think the unimaginable horrors of a war of depopulation are preferable to a steady nationalist depopulation effort on a purely voluntary basis.

Post: #116

(03-03-2017 01:04 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 09:11 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 03:47 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 01:45 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  You not only want to make people welfare-dependent (check out some Native reservations to see how that plays out), you want to sterilize them in the bargain.

So in other words you want to snuff them out.

What other devil is going to come along and do them worse than that?

What do you propose as a solution aside from "I'll spit mad game at the girls in HR and MY job will be secure."

First, think about what you are saying here. The choice is genocide the low-skilled poor or they have to all learn "mad game"?

And what is the track record of welfare's effect on any culture or community?

...
Although the last major depression had a world war, so that's something to consider. Obviously none of us want another world war (or most of us don't, I dunno anymore).

...

Flippant accusations of genocidal intent are SJW territory. Take a deep breath and try not to get triggered when I say that rounding up Jews and gassing them is not the same as offering people the voluntary choice to be neutered for cash. If you really care so deeply about Pochahontas+co then the procedure can include egg/sperm harvest if the applicant gets their life together and can afford IVF on their own dime later down the line.

Personally I'm still waiting on an explanation of how you think the unimaginable horrors of a war of depopulation are preferable to a steady nationalist depopulation effort on a purely voluntary basis.

We're at an impasse when you demand explanations of me from positions I didn't take, and then turn around and say this:

(03-03-2017 12:11 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  I'm not playing "wall of quotes" with you.

I don't have to prove anything to you at all. I don't care whether want to accept my premise.

You are advocating depopulation and welfare. Try and spin it all you like.

Yes, you said the sterilization is voluntary. It's a kinder, gentler Eugenics.

Imagine this -- we can simultaneously not accept someone else losing their job as our own responsibility, AND not want them to be "depopulated". I am not worried about population explosion or automations reducing human lives to worthlessness.

Post: #117

I hope Wendy's and McDonald's both adopt it everywhere. Then I can be confident that when I want a plain hamburger, I will actually get one.

I am so fed up with having to explain to these people what "nothing on it" means.

Post: #118

(03-03-2017 02:20 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  ...
Imagine this -- we can simultaneously not accept someone else losing their job as our own responsibility, AND not want them to be "depopulated". I am not worried about population explosion or automations reducing human lives to worthlessness.

Population explosion?

Post: #119

(03-03-2017 02:20 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  Imagine this -- we can simultaneously not accept someone else losing their job as our own responsibility, AND not want them to be "depopulated". I am not worried about population explosion or automations reducing human lives to worthlessness.

I don't know that it's convincing to just say "I'm not worried about automation." Why? Do you feel that low-skilled workers are somehow going to find new jobs, doing... something? What is it? You can't just say, "Well, they found jobs last time there was a big wave of mechanization, so they'll find jobs this time."
What do you think they're going to do? How do you see this playing out that makes you not worried?

Post: #120

(03-02-2017 02:50 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 06:15 PM)Brillynt Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 03:39 PM)mpr Wrote:  A $15/hour minimum wage is a good thing. It either means that employers have to pay a living wage instead of forcing me to subsidize the cost of their workforce with welfare. Or they have to automatic which will create good paying jobs for American IT techs. They're also limited regarding the amount that they can outsource kiosk repair since the kiosks are physically located in the United States.

The problem with this is that $15 "Living Wage" becomes the old $5 wage. Prices will have to go up to account for the increased cost of labor and then people cant live on $15. The "Living Wage" argument is just a SJW ploy.

Exactly. I used to hear a similar gripe while on active duty now and then: "I'm a private with three kids and a wife and I can't make ends meet!" Well, uh, is that really the Army's problem you had more kids than you can afford? Get your ass into community college, get a two year degree and apply to become an officer if it's that important.

It is if the recruiter told you that your family would be taken care of, and you would be given additional money for food, clothing, and shelter depending on how many dependents you have. Yes there are some people who should have done better due diligence. But recruiters also shouldn't lie. That sword cuts both ways. Also you need a bachelors degree to become an officer, and even then there are no guarantees that they'll take you. A two year degree from a community college won't cut it.

Post: #121

I think all the debates will be looked back at as silly.

What I see is that one creative high IQ individual can now come up with and make ideas come true that would have taken thousands of people's effort to make real, now only takes a handful or even just that individual.

If you follow this trajectory you see that as technology progresses as a proportion to the overall population the power to create wealth comes into fewer and fewer hands as the stakes to solve nuanced problems at higher levels shuts more and more people out of the market.

I will just say at the places I have worked over the years maybe 1 in 5 people maximum I could see having a high value in the economy 20 years from now, that is with the generosity of a saint. Many of these ones that won't have value are college educated and beyond.

Post: #122

It's amazing that Wendy's is panned for getting rid of cashiers while Amazon is considered "cool" for it.

Post: #123

(03-04-2017 08:17 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 02:20 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  Imagine this -- we can simultaneously not accept someone else losing their job as our own responsibility, AND not want them to be "depopulated". I am not worried about population explosion or automations reducing human lives to worthlessness.

I don't know that it's convincing to just say "I'm not worried about automation." Why? Do you feel that low-skilled workers are somehow going to find new jobs, doing... something? What is it? You can't just say, "Well, they found jobs last time there was a big wave of mechanization, so they'll find jobs this time."
What do you think they're going to do? How do you see this playing out that makes you not worried?

Couple things off the top of my head. Taking into account two major accomplishments of low-skilled jobs (any jobs, really): 1. support self/family, 2. bare dignity of usefulness.

Let's assume all the non-skilled jobs are gone in the wake of mass automation and robot tech.

Bits of people will move into the following...

- the now-lowest level of the remaining jobs

- material or capital heavy industries suddenly become accessible because of cheap robot labor and much more efficient practices, barrier to entry is lowered

- get into handmade goods, which come more and more back into fashion (because of the exotic factor). Artisan this and that, like we see now.

- robots provide most of the labor so there is less and less need to work full time or at all; pursue new hobbies that become life’s purpose

- motivated to learn more and get a much higher level job

- numerous new types of work pops up with positions all across the board (pat historical examples — Hollywood in the 1910s, or programming 1990s)

- some just drift into harmless malaise and are taken care of by family and friends

- suicide

- some become criminals (but some would have left their low-skilled job and done this anyway, regardless of automation); presumably the robot security guards will keep most of the rest of us safe

- become pioneers on the space colonies

Veering deep into sci-fi, evil globalist overlords could I guess keep manipulating the money supply and cut-off oxygen Total Recall style. But then I will be on the side of the rioters.

Post: #124

I think it will end up like the big lebowski where you get a small government check and have a simple pleasure like bowling and that's it.

It cracks me up pro-automation people act like cab drivers are a bunch of genius artists waiting to be unleashed.

Post: #125

(03-04-2017 11:29 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  ...

Couple things off the top of my head. Taking into account two major accomplishments of low-skilled jobs (any jobs, really): 1. support self/family, 2. bare dignity of usefulness.

Let's assume all the non-skilled jobs are gone in the wake of mass automation and robot tech.

Bits of people will move into the following...

- the now-lowest level of the remaining jobs

- material or capital heavy industries suddenly become accessible because of cheap robot labor and much more efficient practices, barrier to entry is lowered

- get into handmade goods, which come more and more back into fashion (because of the exotic factor). Artisan this and that, like we see now.

- robots provide most of the labor so there is less and less need to work full time or at all; pursue new hobbies that become life’s purpose

- motivated to learn more and get a much higher level job

- numerous new types of work pops up with positions all across the board (pat historical examples — Hollywood in the 1910s, or programming 1990s)

- some just drift into harmless malaise and are taken care of by family and friends

- suicide

- some become criminals (but some would have left their low-skilled job and done this anyway, regardless of automation); presumably the robot security guards will keep most of the rest of us safe

- become pioneers on the space colonies

Veering deep into sci-fi, evil globalist overlords could I guess keep manipulating the money supply and cut-off oxygen Total Recall style. But then I will be on the side of the rioters.

The only problem is that to date the only prediction of yours here we've seen play out successfully is the bad stuff.

A record number of Americans for example are on some form of welfare, and the numbers are staggering. This is only increasing. Baltimore and Ferguson are not awash in artisnal goods fairs. They are awash in poverty and violence, as are the trailer parks of middle-America. No advanced physics courses or burgeoning oil-landscape collections to be found there either. Their family and friends are barely surviving themselves, so they'll get no support from them either.

And again we see the duality of your argument that I'm a bad person for suggesting welfare and tube-jobs are a better than setting people on a path to suicide-inducing despair.

As for putting zero-skill low IQ people into space, I don't think they need a lot of cashiers on space ships.