Post: #51

(03-01-2017 01:03 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  ^plenty of construction and other blue collar work is available.

This is a lie.

Post: #52

(03-01-2017 01:31 PM)Enigma Wrote:  People who supported Trump for his promises to end illegal immigration and bring back jobs now claim that there are abundance of jobs with decent wages and that we should replace workers any time it's cost efficient.

People in America and on RVF supported Trump for a lot of different reasons. Just because I want crackdowns on illegal immigration and H1B abuse doesn't mean I think minimum wage should be increased to 15 dollars. Businesses should be free to hire and fire at will, in the same way that employees are free to walk at any time.

Post: #53

(03-01-2017 01:31 PM)Enigma Wrote:  People who supported Trump for his promises to end illegal immigration and bring back jobs now claim that there are abundance of jobs with decent wages and that we should replace workers any time it's cost efficient.

In my case. I supported Trump to give jobs back that to Americans that are taken by illegals. Those jobs at the very least should be given to people who went through the proper process to become a U.S citizen.In regards to people being able to put their ego to the side and take these jobs and get back into the work force, is a different story.

Their are jobs out their. Their is a shortage in manufacturing jobs. Also, construction, carpenter, plumber, etc jobs are always on the rise (can not export these jobs).These bigger flipping fools can easily obtain these jobs. (minimum high school diploma required if that).

Post: #54

(03-01-2017 01:37 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:03 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  ^plenty of construction and other blue collar work is available.

This is a lie.

Sources

http://m.bakingbusiness.com/articles/new...6%7D&cck=1

truck drive shortage

https://hennessysview.com/2017/01/14/ame...t-college/


oil jobs


I can go all day.

Post: #55

A bit off topic, since I agree, the rise in the minimum wage kills jobs. That's fact. Even libs will admit that these days.

I'm can't be certain of the cost calculations but 1 machine doesn't exactly equal 1 person in terms of replacement . Ordering from a machine is actually pretty slow when compared to ordering from a human. If the consumer is not an expert in the system, it probably takes twice as long for them to order from machine. Also, people aren't under pressure to make a decision at a machine.

Supermarkets have had machines for checking out for years now. Most consumers don't actually like them, other then when they just need to pick up a few items. Whole Foods for example, which is a giant growth company has never had them, yet they've had no problem becoming a giant company and paying high wages in the industry(it also helps they're un-unionized)

Also, all these Europeans McD still have someone at the register just in case something goes, so cashiers wages don't completely go away. In light of this, at $8 an hour, replacing humans with machines makes far less sense then at $15.

Post: #56

Skilled labour is exactly that. You need certificationsnofnsome sort to get them. Minimum wage is typically for low skill work that anybody with a heartbeat can do. Anybody can stock shelves or work a fryer. Not everyone can be a truck driver or (surprisingly) be a Baker tech which is oddly dangerous and has shitty hours.

Post: #57

So do you guys really think these kiosks only arrived because of minimum wage hikes?

They were waiting for an excuse.

Post: #58

(03-01-2017 02:50 PM)godzilla Wrote:  Supermarkets have had machines for checking out for years now. Most consumers don't actually like them, other then when they just need to pick up a few items. Whole Foods for example, which is a giant growth company has never had them, yet they've had no problem becoming a giant company and paying high wages in the industry(it also helps they're un-unionized)

I was going to bring that up too. The self-checkout lanes are a disaster, nobody wants to use them. Not to mention the glitches where it doesn't fucking know how many apples you have in a bag, and so you have to call a manager over, thereby wasting more time than you would with a human cashier.

Or just think how frustrating customer service is with the robot answering. People are literally pulling their hair out trying to get through to a human being. Yea, it's gonna be a while before we optimize the whole machines over humans thing.

What I would suggest instead of an automatic increase in minimum wage is something along these lines, since many people are so opposed to the hike: have a probationary period for low-skilled employees for let's say 6 months. If it turns out they are high-quality, hard workers (i.e. fast, accurate, clean, and helpful) bump them up to $15/hr. Kosko has it right in that anyone with a pulse can do these jobs, but not everyone can do them well. Many of those employees are fat (move slower) and dumb (take forever to put in an order). Then there are those (like Starbucks employees for instance) who are quick and courteous, get your order in less than a minute. Those are the ones that should be rewarded.

Post: #59

(03-01-2017 01:37 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:03 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  ^plenty of construction and other blue collar work is available.

This is a lie.

I live in Massachusetts. I am blue collar. The only work is Union or illegal.

Anyway I'm wrapping this break up but long story short you can't leave McDonald's and just walk up an join a union.

Post: #60

(03-01-2017 01:40 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:31 PM)Enigma Wrote:  People who supported Trump for his promises to end illegal immigration and bring back jobs now claim that there are abundance of jobs with decent wages and that we should replace workers any time it's cost efficient.

People in America and on RVF supported Trump for a lot of different reasons. Just because I want crackdowns on illegal immigration and H1B abuse doesn't mean I think minimum wage should be increased to 15 dollars. Businesses should be free to hire and fire at will, in the same way that employees are free to walk at any time.

Where did I say anything about a minimum wage?

The point is that you can't claim that companies are abusing immigration, outsourcing, work visas, etc. to save money yet dismiss the fact that they abuse the current wage system.

How is it wrong to give jobs to cheaper workers to save money but not to replace the same workers with robots to save money?

Trump's policies have always called for protectionism across the board.

As I stated in my first post, I'm not saying an increased minimum wage is the answer. But when people try to boil complex issues down into simple black and white talking points (free market vs. government interference) it leads to a lot of contradictions and cognitive dissonance.

Post: #61

(03-01-2017 11:32 AM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 12:59 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  It's all fun and schadenfreude until you are the one to lose your job, whether to a robot, offshoring, or some H1B Apoo.

You aren't owed a job.

Nothing to do with fun; it's life. Every day you have to get up and hustle for your daily bread.

To a business owner, the robot or Apoo might actually be better. It's up to you (if it's your job) to prove otherwise, or head to greener pastures.

Why is this such a controversial concept on a forum dedicated to men improving so they can get more action with women?

You're absolutely right, it is up to us to fight for our jobs. And what, may I ask, do you think it is we are doing by taking action against offshoring, robots, and H1B Apoos if not fighting for our jobs? This forum is about self improvement, which is precisely why our goal in the labor force is not to underbid Apoo at the cost of taking a 50% paycut, but to send Apoo packing back to India and drive down supply, thus giving ourselves a 20% raise.

I hope you can see why a 50% paycut isn't self improvement but a 20% raise is, and so you can understand why we are trying to send the Apoos packing rather than bring more of them here for the greater glory of libertardian ideology. It's the self-improvement, see.

Or perhaps you think that the only legitimate way to "hustle" for a job is to accept ever lower wages and to resign ourselves to live as serfs under feudal corporate Lords?

Post: #62

Everyone pointing to the $15/hour minimum wage as the cause of this is missing the point. You could pay human workers $1/hour and they'll still be out competed by machines that can do the same job in the long run. The productivity of automated systems continues to increase; while the cost continues to drop. Meanwhile human productivity remains relatively stagnant because it's limited by biological factors. The reservation wage for human workers is also limited by biological factors as well. A worker must earn enough to afford food, shelter, and clothing.

Think about it. Take all of the automation out of a Honda factory and replace it with human workers who are paid $1/an hour each. Do you think human labor would be able to out compete machine labor on a dollar for dollar cost basis? That factory would get steamrolled by it's automated competition.

A $15/hour minimum wage is a good thing. It either means that employers have to pay a living wage instead of forcing me to subsidize the cost of their workforce with welfare. Or they have to automatic which will create good paying jobs for American IT techs. They're also limited regarding the amount that they can outsource kiosk repair since the kiosks are physically located in the United States.

Post: #63

McDonald has been testing self service for quite some time now, I think I saw one for the first time back in 2009, they are already very common in touristic areas, now they are very common in all McDonald.

Post: #64

(03-01-2017 03:23 PM)godfather dust Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:37 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 01:03 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  ^plenty of construction and other blue collar work is available.

This is a lie.

I live in Massachusetts. I am blue collar. The only work is Union or illegal.

Anyway I'm wrapping this break up but long story short you can't leave McDonald's and just walk up an join a union.

I never said you wouldn't have to travel. Easier said than done but its doable these days with things like AIRbnb and everything being online and easily accessible.

Post: #65

(03-01-2017 03:36 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  You're absolutely right, it is up to us to fight for our jobs. And what, may I ask, do you think it is we are doing by taking action against offshoring, robots, and H1B Apoos if not fighting for our jobs? This forum is about self improvement, which is precisely why our goal in the labor force is not to underbid Apoo at the cost of taking a 50% paycut, but to send Apoo packing back to India and drive down supply, thus giving ourselves a 20% raise.

I hope you can see why a 50% paycut isn't self improvement but a 20% raise is, and so you can understand why we are trying to send the Apoos packing rather than bring more of them here for the greater glory of libertardian ideology. It's the self-improvement, see.

Or perhaps you think that the only legitimate way to "hustle" for a job is to accept ever lower wages and to resign ourselves to live as serfs under feudal corporate Lords?

While I agree on H1B, the economics don't quite support your stance on automation and definitely not on offshoring. There are issues with quality control of course, but our corporate lords generally don't give a fuck about that.

Also, you have an interesting view on self improvement. I would think the self improvement part would be becoming the corporate lord, not worrying whether Apoo is taking your job.

Post: #66

(03-01-2017 03:39 PM)mpr Wrote:  A $15/hour minimum wage is a good thing. It either means that employers have to pay a living wage instead of forcing me to subsidize the cost of their workforce with welfare. Or they have to automatic which will create good paying jobs for American IT techs. They're also limited regarding the amount that they can outsource kiosk repair since the kiosks are physically located in the United States.

The problem with this is that $15 "Living Wage" becomes the old $5 wage. Prices will have to go up to account for the increased cost of labor and then people cant live on $15. The "Living Wage" argument is just a SJW ploy.

Post: #67

Won't be long till those construction jobs go too.

Post: #68

(03-01-2017 03:36 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 11:32 AM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 12:59 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  It's all fun and schadenfreude until you are the one to lose your job, whether to a robot, offshoring, or some H1B Apoo.

You aren't owed a job.

Nothing to do with fun; it's life. Every day you have to get up and hustle for your daily bread.

To a business owner, the robot or Apoo might actually be better. It's up to you (if it's your job) to prove otherwise, or head to greener pastures.

Why is this such a controversial concept on a forum dedicated to men improving so they can get more action with women?

You're absolutely right, it is up to us to fight for our jobs. And what, may I ask, do you think it is we are doing by taking action against offshoring, robots, and H1B Apoos if not fighting for our jobs? This forum is about self improvement, which is precisely why our goal in the labor force is not to underbid Apoo at the cost of taking a 50% paycut, but to send Apoo packing back to India and drive down supply, thus giving ourselves a 20% raise.

I hope you can see why a 50% paycut isn't self improvement but a 20% raise is, and so you can understand why we are trying to send the Apoos packing rather than bring more of them here for the greater glory of libertardian ideology. It's the self-improvement, see.

You're not fighting for your job, you want someone else to do it for you.

At that wage, for that type of unskilled labor, the only way you can beat the robot through merit is to be one hell of a customer service person.

You are instead asking the government to fuck over some other people on your behalf. This is one of the things the feminists do.

Do you think demand will stay the same when prices go up due to paying you 20% more? I suppose you could petition the government to also force people to buy as much as before, or force Wendys to freeze their prices. Surely there won't be any unintended consequences from that...

And while we're focusing on single person examples and ignoring everyone else, I get a raise each year and I didn't have to ask anyone to be deported or ignore technology to make it happen.

Now, hoping to remove bad legislation that is hampering businesses and employees, we may be able to find some common ground there. That would be the more fruitful discussion.

Instead of soaking other people, name some bad laws that could be removed. Like Trump saying he will repeal 2 bad regulations for every 1 he adds.

Can you at least admit the distinction between saying people must do such and such a thing, versus not interfering at all? I am suggesting that there is a lot of interfering going on right now, and dialling back on it may be the better answer.

(03-01-2017 03:36 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  Or perhaps you think that the only legitimate way to "hustle" for a job is to accept ever lower wages and to resign ourselves to live as serfs under feudal corporate Lords?

Nice strawman. Improving your skills, networking, changing fields. All options.

You don't need to underbid Apoo. You overbid him and sell the idea that because your english is better and your navigation of the culture is more nimble, that you are more of an asset to the firm in the long run.

Are you upset about cars displacing the horse and buggy drivers, too?

Post: #69

(03-01-2017 03:20 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 02:50 PM)godzilla Wrote:  Supermarkets have had machines for checking out for years now. Most consumers don't actually like them, other then when they just need to pick up a few items. Whole Foods for example, which is a giant growth company has never had them, yet they've had no problem becoming a giant company and paying high wages in the industry(it also helps they're un-unionized)

I was going to bring that up too. The self-checkout lanes are a disaster, nobody wants to use them. Not to mention the glitches where it doesn't fucking know how many apples you have in a bag, and so you have to call a manager over, thereby wasting more time than you would with a human cashier.

Or just think how frustrating customer service is with the robot answering. People are literally pulling their hair out trying to get through to a human being. Yea, it's gonna be a while before we optimize the whole machines over humans thing.

What I would suggest instead of an automatic increase in minimum wage is something along these lines, since many people are so opposed to the hike: have a probationary period for low-skilled employees for let's say 6 months. If it turns out they are high-quality, hard workers (i.e. fast, accurate, clean, and helpful) bump them up to $15/hr. Kosko has it right in that anyone with a pulse can do these jobs, but not everyone can do them well. Many of those employees are fat (move slower) and dumb (take forever to put in an order). Then there are those (like Starbucks employees for instance) who are quick and courteous, get your order in less than a minute. Those are the ones that should be rewarded.

Exactly. And Starbucks would be out of business if they used machines.

I can also tell you, its much easier to steal at supermarkets if you do know how to work the machines.

The machine isn't a win-win like everyone thinks it is.

And someone has got to build the machine too, so that's a job right there. Or someone has to build the machine that builds the machine. Or I could keep going with that one.

Post: #70

(03-01-2017 06:55 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  ...

You don't need to underbid Apoo. You overbid him and sell the idea that because your english is better and your navigation of the culture is more nimble, that you are more of an asset to the firm in the long run.
...

Yeah... Apoo doesn't complain when you grossly underpay him because even when he's being robbed by his corporate overlords it's still better than being in whatever shit-hole he arrived from.

In any case, drastically slashing lower class jobs in favour of automation is one of those issues where libertarians demonstrate that they really don't have the slightest clue.

"Just upskill or change industries because nobody else is responsible for blah blah blah".

Super. No worries. But, uhhh, what are you planning to do about all the angry unemployed people that didn't make the cut? You think they're just going to, what? Politely dig a hole in the ground and starve to death in it?

Bonus points for answering the question "what do violent revolutions have in common with this topic".

Post: #71

(03-01-2017 02:50 PM)godzilla Wrote:  A bit off topic, since I agree, the rise in the minimum wage kills jobs. That's fact. Even libs will admit that these days.

I'm can't be certain of the cost calculations but 1 machine doesn't exactly equal 1 person in terms of replacement . Ordering from a machine is actually pretty slow when compared to ordering from a human. If the consumer is not an expert in the system, it probably takes twice as long for them to order from machine. Also, people aren't under pressure to make a decision at a machine.

Supermarkets have had machines for checking out for years now. Most consumers don't actually like them, other then when they just need to pick up a few items. Whole Foods for example, which is a giant growth company has never had them, yet they've had no problem becoming a giant company and paying high wages in the industry(it also helps they're un-unionized)

Also, all these Europeans McD still have someone at the register just in case something goes, so cashiers wages don't completely go away. In light of this, at $8 an hour, replacing humans with machines makes far less sense then at $15.

A machine can't replace all the employees, yet. But:

Take a McD's where you need 5 cashiers working the line at peak hours (breakfast, lunch, after work rush hour). If one machine can replace a single cashier for those times, that's a good 4 hours of labor saved every day during those hours. That spare employee can be grilling, cleaning, etc. instead. Employer needs 4 hours less of labor per day to maintain status quo, or can provide better service for the same money.

Bottom line is, one machine cannot replace a single employee. But one machine can replace one tenth of the work done by every five employees.

The machine doesn't need to replace everything an employee does. Just something that is done for long enough to be significant as a % of his time.

Post: #72

(03-01-2017 06:15 PM)Brillynt Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 03:39 PM)mpr Wrote:  A $15/hour minimum wage is a good thing. It either means that employers have to pay a living wage instead of forcing me to subsidize the cost of their workforce with welfare. Or they have to automatic which will create good paying jobs for American IT techs. They're also limited regarding the amount that they can outsource kiosk repair since the kiosks are physically located in the United States.

The problem with this is that $15 "Living Wage" becomes the old $5 wage. Prices will have to go up to account for the increased cost of labor and then people cant live on $15. The "Living Wage" argument is just a SJW ploy.

That's not how it works. We have real world data to analyze whether prices rise after an increases in the minimum wage. There has never been a statistically significant increase in inflation after increasing the minimum wage. That holds even holds true for jurisdictions that have recently implemented the $15/hour minimum wage.

An increase in the price of an input usually doesn't result in a $1 to $1 increase in the price of goods or services, and may not result in a consumer price increase at all. Generally there are several anti-inflationary responses to the increase in the price of an input: Businesses try to use less of that input, increase productivity, sometimes are forced to eat the price increase in the form of reduced profits, or are forced out of business while more efficient enterprises providing the same product take their place. Consumers also substitute away to other products, putting downward pressure on the price of the goods in question.

Post: #73

(03-01-2017 06:55 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 03:36 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 11:32 AM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 12:59 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  It's all fun and schadenfreude until you are the one to lose your job, whether to a robot, offshoring, or some H1B Apoo.

You aren't owed a job.

Nothing to do with fun; it's life. Every day you have to get up and hustle for your daily bread.

To a business owner, the robot or Apoo might actually be better. It's up to you (if it's your job) to prove otherwise, or head to greener pastures.

Why is this such a controversial concept on a forum dedicated to men improving so they can get more action with women?

You're absolutely right, it is up to us to fight for our jobs. And what, may I ask, do you think it is we are doing by taking action against offshoring, robots, and H1B Apoos if not fighting for our jobs? This forum is about self improvement, which is precisely why our goal in the labor force is not to underbid Apoo at the cost of taking a 50% paycut, but to send Apoo packing back to India and drive down supply, thus giving ourselves a 20% raise.

I hope you can see why a 50% paycut isn't self improvement but a 20% raise is, and so you can understand why we are trying to send the Apoos packing rather than bring more of them here for the greater glory of libertardian ideology. It's the self-improvement, see.

You're not fighting for your job, you want someone else to do it for you.

At that wage, for that type of unskilled labor, the only way you can beat the robot through merit is to be one hell of a customer service person.

You are instead asking the government to fuck over some other people on your behalf. This is one of the things the feminists do.

Do you think demand will stay the same when prices go up due to paying you 20% more? I suppose you could petition the government to also force people to buy as much as before, or force Wendys to freeze their prices. Surely there won't be any unintended consequences from that...

And while we're focusing on single person examples and ignoring everyone else, I get a raise each year and I didn't have to ask anyone to be deported or ignore technology to make it happen.

Now, hoping to remove bad legislation that is hampering businesses and employees, we may be able to find some common ground there. That would be the more fruitful discussion.

Instead of soaking other people, name some bad laws that could be removed. Like Trump saying he will repeal 2 bad regulations for every 1 he adds.

Can you at least admit the distinction between saying people must do such and such a thing, versus not interfering at all? I am suggesting that there is a lot of interfering going on right now, and dialling back on it may be the better answer.

(03-01-2017 03:36 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  Or perhaps you think that the only legitimate way to "hustle" for a job is to accept ever lower wages and to resign ourselves to live as serfs under feudal corporate Lords?

Nice strawman. Improving your skills, networking, changing fields. All options.

You don't need to underbid Apoo. You overbid him and sell the idea that because your english is better and your navigation of the culture is more nimble, that you are more of an asset to the firm in the long run.

Are you upset about cars displacing the horse and buggy drivers, too?

I don't claim to have any magic solution for the automation problem. It's going to fuck our society, but there isn't anything obvious that can be done about it. That's about all I can say on that particular topic.

When it comes to job-destroying offshoring and H1B Apoos, on the other hand, you're goddamn right I want "the government to fuck over some other people on my behalf." As an American, I want the American government to keep H1B Indian Apoos away from our American jobs. The American government is supposed to be an agent acting as the will of the American people, and so why the fuck do you think the American government should be issuing visas to foreigners for the expressed purpose of displacing Americans from jobs right here in the USA?

Because libertardian ideology says so? Well, fuck libertardian ideology, nobody cares about that shit, and if you think that not caring about libertardian ideology makes me a "feminist" then what can i say other than "screw off."

The rest of your post reads like something you'd find in Thomas Friedman's 2005 globalist shill bible "The World is Flat". Remember those days in the mid 2000s when people were unironically going around singing songs about the glories of globalization and how deindustrialization is going to free us all up to become "knowledge workers" making beaucoup bucks and self-actualizing?

Of course, it turned out that deindustrialization freed up factory workers to become not scientists and financiers but minimum wage shelf-stockers. Most of the glob cheerleaders had the good grace to switch their tune and instead of pushing globalization for being a great thing, they're now merely pushing it for being "inevitable." It's good to see that there is at least one person still out there singing that good song about how the entire disaster is not a catastrophe but instead just one massive great opportunity

Post: #74

(03-01-2017 07:41 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  "Just upskill or change industries because nobody else is responsible for blah blah blah".

Super. No worries. But, uhhh, what are you planning to do about all the angry unemployed people that didn't make the cut? You think they're just going to, what? Politely dig a hole in the ground and starve to death in it?

Bonus points for answering the question "what do violent revolutions have in common with this topic".

Exactly.

That's the elephant in the room for the foreseeable future.

Post: #75

Let's translate the employment market to the sexual market. We tell sexless guys to lose fat, dress better, and learn game. What if they said they don't want to or can't, so the government should mandate that hot girls have to give one charity fuck to a loser per month? We'd laugh ourselves silly.

Then, like TooFineAPoint said, why is it controversial when I say that guys not getting paid should improve current skills, learn new ones, and sell themselves better?