Post: #26

(11-29-2016 10:59 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  Serious question, why aren't commercial aircraft equipped with parachutes under every seat?

I imagine there would be a very high rate of survival in the event of a crash if people could just jump out the emergency exits and parachute safely to the ground...

Parachutes add weight to the plane, and they will most likely never be used....so airlines have no incentive to provide them as it cuts into their profits.

Most airlines have actually removed the floating device in case the place crashes into a lake or ocean....because they wanted to save a few dollars in fuel.

Post: #27

In the airlines defence, safety precautions like parachutes and personal flotation devices have a very slim record in saving human life. If a crash is imminent in a commercial jet its all about the pilot. Like at the Miracle on the Hudson or SAS. 751. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandina...Flight_751

Post: #28

I suppose all that makes sense, but I still think having a means to exit the plane in mid-air and possibly live by landing safely on the ground via a parachute would be great. In the event of a crash pretty much everyone is going to die anyway. A fighting chance would be nice.

Post: #29

Reminds me of AA965 in Cali, Colombia. Crew flew a perfectly good airplane into a mountain and four people miraculously survived.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American...Flight_965

Post: #30

This makes me cry.

Post: #31

(11-30-2016 01:43 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  This makes me cry.

Post: #32

It now appears that the jet ran out of fuel. Ironically, running out of fuel is the reason the six people survived the crash. Without fuel in the plane, it didnt explode on impact.

Post: #33

(11-30-2016 03:16 PM)AlphaRN Wrote:  It now appears that the jet ran out of fuel. Ironically, running out of fuel is the reason the six people survived the crash. Without fuel in the plane, it didnt explode on impact.

In this modern day how can something so trivial happen? Is that not standard protocol for pre-flight checklist to make sure there is sufficient fuel?

Post: #34

http://www.wsj.com/articles/planes-fuel-...1480524540

Quote:The distance between the two cities, according to Google Earth, is about 1,845 miles. The Avro RJ85’s maximum range with a full tank of fuel is 1,842 miles, according to a fact sheet on Airliners.net.

What a terrible and preventable disaster.

Post: #35

I've seen pictures of the crash site. Bodies were burned and the front of the plane appears to be more intact. When i say intact its the opposite of the rear and middle which resemble a crushed can.

No clear area to land in those areas.

Post: #36

(11-30-2016 03:24 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  http://www.wsj.com/articles/planes-fuel-...1480524540

Quote:The distance between the two cities, according to Google Earth, is about 1,845 miles. The Avro RJ85’s maximum range with a full tank of fuel is 1,842 miles, according to a fact sheet on Airliners.net.

What a terrible and preventable disaster.

There was a domestic flight headed to San Andres that had technical problems and requested an unscheduled landing in Medellin.

The plane with the Brazilians went into a holding pattern when it reached Medellin, probably because they were dealing with the priority landing for the San Andres flight.

With the Brazil team's flight operating beyond it's specified range, it was doable but there wasn't a great deal of fuel for contingencies. It seems the pilot didn't request an emergency landing in time and ran out of fuel.

As the saying goes: "make it idiot proof and they will build a better idiot". In this case, it was a crew of Bolivians operating the Brazilian team's charter plane and making the calls. Enough said.

Post: #37

(11-30-2016 09:25 PM)Tigre Wrote:  There was a domestic flight headed to San Andres that had technical problems and requested an unscheduled landing in Medellin.

The plane with the Brazilians went into a holding pattern when it reached Medellin, probably because they were dealing with the priority landing for the San Andres flight.

With the Brazil team's flight operating beyond it's specified range, it was doable but there wasn't a great deal of fuel for contingencies. It seems the pilot didn't request an emergency landing in time and ran out of fuel.

As the saying goes: "make it idiot proof and they will build a better idiot". In this case, it was a crew of Bolivians operating the Brazilian team's charter plane and making the calls. Enough said.

Based on everything I've read, this seems to be the case.

The pilot also knew that the amount of fuel onboard was *just* enough for the distance. When something unexpected happened, causing the plane to delay its landing, the consequences were clearly fatal. There was probably a touch of human error involved, too. But none of that matters now.

A touching tribute was held in Chape's stadium last night. There are many pictures and videos online. Goes without saying some of them are hard to view. Especially those of the victims' families.

Here's one of the supporters in the stands. They probably chanted the team's name and all of the players, as is typical before any game.



In Colombia they also planned a tribute on the stage and night that the match would have taken place. Very touching as well.

Post: #38

Nacional fans chanting "We'll never forget you, this cup goes out to you."

Post: #39

Last conversation between the control tower and the pilot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3JT8mtQZQw

Post: #40

(12-01-2016 09:18 AM)chakalaka Wrote:  Last conversation between the control tower and the pilot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3JT8mtQZQw

I just listened to this in full. That controller should be relieved of duty, even though she is not fully at fault. She simply does not appear to have the ability to handle an emergency, and does her job in a rote manner with little ability to think of a solution in a situation that does not match the daily routine. When they told her they were low on fuel she did not ask how many minutes fuel and instead sent them circling. I bet a better controller could have landed both planes even though one in front asked for priority due to fuel leaks. I would be willing to guess the other one had the leaks when they took off and just gave a bullshit excuse to approach to get in quickly - a local trick to not get caught up in the delays.

The ultimate responsibility however lies with the chief pilot of the charter.

This is a totally needless waste of life caused by the charter company and its pilots stretching the safe distance of this aircraft, likely lying about or ignoring the on board weight and other factors in filing a flight plan between these cities. It must have been more important for them to stop in Santa Cruz for fuel at their home base to be able to quote the charter cheap enough to get the job than to give an honest answer that would have been, with these weights and this aircraft we will have to make two stops for fuel (and go out of the way into Peru or Guayaquil, or stop nearly empty in Bogota, to do it as there are no additional direct stops for fuel on this route in the amazon or Southern Colombia that can handle and RJ85.) The charter company is already backpedaling quoted as saying the pilot had the full responsibility to stop for fuel but the charter company would have quoted the flight based on the bad flight plan in the first place. Most of South America is actually extremely difficult flying conditions - over jungle flying requires special consideration to the availability of alternate airports in case of emergency. Even this flight had it been property planned would have an alternate to Medellin on landing which would have required enough fuel left on board that had they reached Medellin and it was suddenly closed for weather they could fly to the alternate airport, like Bogota. Since the RJ85 is a bit of a runway pig, it can't land just anywhere.

Many Brazilian charter operators have newer 737s for charter with the the capacity to fly the team from Chapeco to Medellin non-stop but this would have cost double in hourly rates.

The pilot probably saw all the heavy sports bags getting loaded on and thought "damn that looks heavy" and evaded the issue instead of saying "sorry we have to weight all these bags and recalculate the flight plan" and made the passengers angry and even canceled the flight. Instead he just killed them.

Post: #41

How was the controller suppose to know they didn't have enough fuel to do the pattern. Looking at the map it looks they would have barely made it anyway. They should have known they were fucked as soon as they started the holding pattern. I can understand Spanish and ATC but not both. Did the Lamia 2933 declare emergency as they started to hold or at the end when she's trying to get the them straight in?

Post: #42

At the end of the conversation, the Lamia pilot says something I don't understand, then exclaims "Vectors, vectors, vectors!" The ATC controller answers by telling him he is 8.2 miles from the runway. She then asks his altitude and he doesn't answer.

It's true she wasn't helping him very much, but she did seem to be distracted by the other aircraft's pilot who was doing a better job of communicating how urgent his situation (perhaps falsely) was. Like you said, the Lamia pilot did a horrible job of communicating the urgency of his situation.

Is that controller the local controller or radar approach?

Post: #43

(12-01-2016 12:49 PM)aSimpNamedBrokeback Wrote:  How was the controller suppose to know they didn't have enough fuel to do the pattern. Looking at the map it looks they would have barely made it anyway. They should have known they were fucked as soon as they started the holding pattern. I can understand Spanish and ATC but not both. Did the Lamia 2933 declare emergency as they started to hold or at the end when she's trying to get the them straight in?

ASK

"How many minutes fuel remaining do you have?"

ATC must ask for clarification when non standard terms are used to describe low fuel.

Post: #44

Strange thing is how calm they are.

Once I flew an easyjet flight. It was the scariest shit. The plane was literally going up and down and lights turning off. The woman in front of me started praying to god. This was crazy. The praying part really got me scared. More than the oscillations of the plane. There was a big storm. And the pilot decided not to land in that airport. And went to another one 300km away. When we finally arrived to this one. The plane starts going round and round. And somebody says we will have to go to an other airport. The plane finally lands. After landing the faggot attendant says something like: please be seated we are refueling and will try to go back. When I heard this I knew they were trying to go back because of costs. Maybe it was the parking cost. The cost of buses. Or hotels. The next flight. Whatever. I got up and said: You better open that door before I open it myself. The attendant started telling me I was being rude and violating the laws. My response was fuck you. Don´t tell me what I can or cannot do. I know very well the law. Open it. I didn´t went back to my seat. After a while he announces we would go back by buses. Didn´t even took the bus. Went back by taxi. I had heard circulation on bridges was canceled. And by taxi I could tell the driver the exact direction I wanted to go.

Never flew lowcost again in my life. And never will.

I really hope the families sue the company and the controller. A woman as a traffic controller. For fuck sake. And they still wonder why Trump won...

The mere fact it was a woman doing a man´s job should be enough grounds to win the legal action.

Post: #45

Again, Did the Lamia 2933 declare emergency as they started to hold or at the end when she's trying to get the them straight in?

I read a comment that said if they had declared emergency due to a knowing lack of fuel it would have resulted in a fine and sanctions against the company. Which after reading the transcript makes sense as to why they didn't declare emergency. Looking the map and times, they were doomed as soon as started the hold and didn't declare emergency.

http://www.eldeber.com.bo/suplementos/ob...volar.html

11 minutos antes de la tragedia

Avión– “LaMia 2933 solicita vectores para acercamiento, señorita”
Así comienza la conversación, que dura más de 11 minutos entre el piloto Miguel Quiroga y la encargada de la torre de control del aeropuerto de Medellín.

Torre de Control_ “Atento, tengo una nave por debajo suyo y adicional están efectuando la revisión de pista...” .

Avión– “Con emergencia de combustible señorita, por eso le pido de una vez curso final”
La encargada de la torre en ese momento ordena que un avión de Avianca inicie la aproximación al aeropuerto. Quiroga vuelve a comunicarse con ella y le pide con celeridad autorización.

Avión– “Solicito descenso inmediato LaMia 2933”
Ante esto la encargada cancela la autorización anterior a Avianca y se comunica nuevamente con LaMia.

Torre de Control_ “LaMia 2933 puede efectuar el viraje ahora por la derecha para iniciar el descenso, tiene los tránsitos a una milla por debajo de usted”.

Avión– “Sabe señorita ,no hay factor y solicitamos incorporarnos de una vez…”
En ese momento la controladora le pide hacer maniobras al piloto y declara su situación extrema.

Avión_ “Señorita, LaMia 2933 está en falla total, eléctrica total, sin combustible”.

Torre de Control_ “Pista libre y operable, bomberos alertados”

Avión_ “Vectores señorita, vectores a la pista”.
Segundos después, el piloto vuelve a pedir puntos de referencia en la pista y se corta la comunicación.

Post: #46

The pilot could have been distracted:

Pictured: The beautiful co-pilot killed in Colombia plane crash during her first flight as haunting footage shows interview with footballers and crew before doomed jet took off

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...k-off.html

Post: #47

This video was filmed a week before the crash, it shows a now deceased player's teammates surprising him by letting him know he is going to have a child. This is hard to watch:

Post: #48

(12-01-2016 05:52 PM)chakalaka Wrote:  The pilot could have been distracted:

Pictured: The beautiful co-pilot killed in Colombia plane crash during her first flight as haunting footage shows interview with footballers and crew before doomed jet took off

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...k-off.html

So you have a brand new pilot who didn't have to have the balls to question the captain's fuel decision.

Post: #49

The pilot might have even tried to impress her in some way. Like the other idiot in Italy who sunk a ship because he wanted to say goodbye to his family.

There's so much stupidity in this event.

Post: #50

Whoever planned that flight path and authorized is stupid as fuck.

I know nothing about planes, but know that the path to Colombia is mountainous. But no way in hell would I fucking let a plane go somewhere within it's maximum reach.You need some extra fuel in case you get stuck in a waiting pattern or change route due to weather. In a car? Yeah, I've stretched it to the point the gas thank is below E, nothing happens then. But on a plane? Fuck no, it's not like you can just park next to a cloud.